Holy shit man, get down those high horses of yours, you take this shit waaaay too seriously.
Sakurai essay in EDGE on appealing to all types of gamers with the new Smash Bros.
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Holy shit man, get down those high horses of yours, you take this shit waaaay too seriously.
Out_Of_Ammo
Member
I'm starting to think I'm weird for actually liking Brawl...
One of the biggest issues with this whole debate is that a lot of people jump into it with the presumption that Melee is better than Brawl and argue like it's an accepted fact. This prevents any kind of fair and open critique on the two games and the casual/competitive discussion.
Deckard Cain
Banned
Nice strawman. I've played the game, you haven't, clearly. What more is there really to say? Let's be real, what counter argument have you Pro-Sakurai guys even had? You guys don't have anything to stand on. All you are doing is hoping that in 1 week the game that's been playable on show floors for 4 months is going to magically transform into an amazing game despite all evidence pointing to it being Brawl 2.0.
Smash 4 is a misssd opportunity to make something great AGAIN. The series can not progress with Sakurai at the helm. If Smash 5 comes out & Sakurai is incharge he'll so the same thing AGAIN.
It isnt about the speed. Brawl wouldn't be much better if you could play it at 2xspeed. There are many things that, for melee enthusiasts, hinder the core gameplay: lack of momentum, fewer approach options, unpunishable defensive maneuvers, lack of hit stun, lag in attacks.
And you also got addition inconveniences, such as tripping, stale moves, unbalanced roster, planking, infite locks, infinite chain grabs. But none of those are, in my view, minor problems compared to the above.
Yep, Nintendo sure is embarrassed, which is why the other half responsible for bringing Smash to life, Iwata who now runs Nintendo, not only dragged Sakurai back to work on Brawl, dragged him back to work on Smash 4 as well. Iwata must look like a beetroot right about now, because he is so red with embarrassment.
I think the outcome of Smash 4 is the least of your problems at the moment. Your priority at the moment should be finding a route back to reality.
Speed wasn't the only problem with Brawl, you know?
The defensive options being so much better than the offensive options was much more of a problem than the fact that the movement speed was slower.
Smash 4 doesn't have dash dancing or crouch cancelling, air dodge is still spammable, shield dropping is still insanely quick, low shield stun, fast dodges and side steps, no momentum conservation, needlessly high landing lag on a lot of aerials...
There are a lot of reasons why people might not be excited about the game so far because what we've seen doesn't point to it being much different than Brawl for the competitive scene.
GameGuru59
Banned
Nor did you hear a complaint during the N64 days of Smash being too slow. Like Melee, the game was outstanding, and there was nothing else to compare it to. However, now that we have 13 years of perspective on Melee, some people are saying: "you know what... I didn't really appreciate x and y." It's similar to how people are now criticizing Ocarina of Time, though virtually no one was at the time (save the Water Temple).
Personally (having 13 years of perspective on Melee), I do think the game was a tad fast, and I didn't like the fact there were "higher level" moves that only highly competitive people could grasp. It's not that I don't want there to be a competitive smash scene, its just that I feel it should be different from Melee. Having been an avid Smash player since 64, I feel as though I'd like a return to the more strategic form of gameplay that 64 had versus the tactical "fighting game" style of gameplay that Melee had. One of the things I like about Brawl is that it's highly strategic, almost to a fault (yall call it "defensive"). Like 64, players can effectively use the whole stage as a playground, even without items. Adding-in the stage creator also made it possible to overcome Brawl's mostly shitty built-in stages, and make the game several times more fun.
If Smash 4 is faster than Brawl (but slower than Melee), has no tripping, and has the stage creator, it's the perfect Smash for me.
When someone mentions Final Destination and competitive Smash you immediately know they have no idea what's going in the competitive scene. Including Sakurai and his pointless For Glory mode. Does he really believe there's a significant amount of people that fit the Fox only, FD meme?
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
It doesn't have to play the exact same, but Sakurai is clearly designing the games to cater to an incredibly tiny, near silent (possibly non-existent) minority while acting against the interest of the most dedicated players. That doesn't make any sense, he's creating a solution to a problem that only exists in his own head.
I mean, just for example, instead of removing l canceling entirely because it's "too complicated" for the novices who likely never knew it existed, why wasn't it made automatic? Nobody in the competitive community would have complained because it wouldn't have hurt anything, and the casual Smash player either wouldn't notice a difference or would likely appreciate the ability to react faster.
It's not just game speed, here. This is the thing people keep missing. Sakurai is taking out legitimately good mechanics for the sake of making the game easier for novices to compete with players who will always be better than them no matter what.
Nobody is asking for the same game again, they're asking for a continuation of those mechanics. All Smash 4 needs, literally, to be what people would be happy with is dash dancing*, less landing lag on the aerials across the board, and maybe even momentum conservation for jumps (essentially what happens when you run in a Mario platformer and you jump). All three of those things is all the game needs and the developer keeps failing to recognize the benefits those mechanics even have on casual players.
It's frustrating that he keeps thinking everything about Melee or that was in Melee is inherently bad to bring back. They're not. Dash dancing wouldn't destroy anything! Surely you understand that, yeah? The frustration of not being heard for only a small amount of changes. Melee was a true evolution of Smash 64's mechanics and Sakurai stripped out most of those advancements in Brawl to its detriment.
*: Dash dancing is a technique that allows you to weave back and forth with your dash it is not wavedashing. This isn't possible in the current E3 build of Smash 4.
johnsavage
Member
You're not weird. I find it strange that some people love melee so much they want it again. We have melee already I don't want to pay $60 to get it again.
I don't think its a lot of people, it's just a lot of vocal people that hate everything. If they really loved Melee they should be playing it right now instead of complaining about a game they'll never play.
You're veering off into slander territory. I think your posts are more effective when you stick to criticizing the game and the decision making that went in to it, rather than attacking the creator.
NeonZ
Member
Well, he has access to Brawl's online data. No one would ever use an online mode for actual competitive tournaments. If anything, the "For Glory" ruleset is based on the play data they got from people's custom rule sets in online Brawl and a way to separate the people who want to use all resources in the game and the people who want to play like that (note how Final Destination is outright banned in "For Fun" and items must be on there). There was a clash in online gaming habits and this is a way to divide them.
If Sakurai is so incompetent, where are all these comparable fighting franchises made by competent developers that soar to success? There's nothing. The tournament scene isn't as relevant or important to a game's success as you think.
Brawl also sold millions through the years after its launch. So, it wasn't the type of game that sold well initially, but killed its own legs after player backlash either.
I don't necessarily disagree with your points, but this phrase REALLY needs to stop being used. Smash 4 is smash bros 4.0. It has concepts from all 3 prior games being used plus new ones unique to it.
Honestly there is nothing of substance to address in your argument. You seem to hate Sakurai and think that not only is he a terrible developer but also an idiot. Your posts are delusional. When I play a game I don't like, I stop playing it. I don't question the sanity of the people who made it.
You having played the game is meaningless because I have no confidence in your opinion. I have no confidence in your ability to reason. I've watched all the live footage of Smash 4 online, read and watched interviews with pros who have played it, and will decide for myself how I feel about the game when it releases.
Smash is one of my favorite series of all time and it's just upsetting seeing the series just give up on trying to let me have fun with it... It didn't need this odd compromise because Melee was that already. It gave us a game that people of either extreme could enjoy and love. Not a single other fighting game could brag of that, only Smash alone.
I enjoy learning fighters and I enjoy depth. This is how I enjoy and love Smash and now I am being thrown to side because I'm this "competitive boogeyman" he seems to fear so much
I mean I will still get the game and pray my assumptions are completely wrong but...
I enjoy learning fighters and I enjoy depth. This is how I enjoy and love Smash and now I am being thrown to side because I'm this "competitive boogeyman" he seems to fear so much
I mean I will still get the game and pray my assumptions are completely wrong but...
Meh...like others have said I really don't understand his reasoning at all. I played the Hell out of Melee in college with friends who were the definition of 'casual gamers' and I never heard a single person say the game was too fast or hard to control because of its speed. We all loved Melee, game is just pure unadulterated fun.
Those three mechanics you mentioned is basically all I really want back in. They add so much.
The Great Gonzales
Member
This is an important point. Sakurai's gotten a lot of flack for For Glory mode because it's not truly what competitive players want. But appeasing actual competitive players wasn't the intent behind the mode; the intent was to please the many people who played Brawl "Fox only, no items, Final Destination" style.
Rather than please them, I think Sakurai's actually trying to quarantine those players. I remember reading a statement from him where he said he was frustrated that so many people online only wanted to play Brawl like that. So now they get an exclusive playground so they won't be irritating everyone else by refusing to play with any other ruleset. It's pretty funny when you think about it.
KuroPyonyo
Banned
Smash 4 also wouldnt exist without brawl, its the same engine with modifications, which the PM team doesnt have the luxury with access to source code and documentation.
I think the internet yelled enough, if Sakurai wanted to understand the core concerns he could easly. To reitterate all that is wanted is a game that feels good and responsive. No one cares (besides a few hardliners) if its done through melee like techniques or something new. And if they fuck up, its 2014 now, they can patch.
I honestly can not understand this line of thought at all. I would argue PM is the superior smash expirence for ALL playstyles. Your casual friend is not going to suddenly mutate into wobbles and chaingrab you to hell and back.
Please explain to me what casual fun can you have in brawl that you can not have in PM?
Completely missing the point of everything.
The game doesn't have to be Melee 2.0 to be good, it just has to stop removing as much as he can that adds depth or excitement or strategy to the gameplay.
Many of the things that could be added to make smash 4 competitive either don't require any extra inputs and don't make the game harder to play at all.
Diprosalic
Banned
lies.
Glass Rebel
Member
I think Sakurai's mistake was to call Melee complicated without further elaborating what he meant.
Smash in its most basic form is pretty damn simple but there's no arguing that wavedashing is a super useful move that isn't really easy to pull off, which kinda flies in the face of what Sakurai intends the game to be.
I am not sure whether dash dancing will be back. I think I saw some video before that falsely identified it but this seems to be closer to it: LINK
Either way, Sakurai has already said that he's very open to post-release patches.
Smash in its most basic form is pretty damn simple but there's no arguing that wavedashing is a super useful move that isn't really easy to pull off, which kinda flies in the face of what Sakurai intends the game to be.
I am not sure whether dash dancing will be back. I think I saw some video before that falsely identified it but this seems to be closer to it: LINK
Either way, Sakurai has already said that he's very open to post-release patches.
When was Smash Bros about depth.... You have your attacks and you beat the hell out of friends. You got dodges and everything still. The speed doesn't add very much depth at all. And if you mean Wave-dashing... then lol.
Also how is everyone so sure that "For Glory" is only going to be Final Destination. It's been awhile since that stuff was even revealed, you don't think they might have gone back and tweaked a few things or added maps. I think we should wait for the game to come out before people start damning this game and calling someone like Sakurai an idiot. I mean seriously Sakurai has brought us many great games, calling him an idiot cause you can't be super hardcore in smash is silly.
Since Super Smash Bros. 64 and until the release of Brawl
Because it is? It's a mode for people who only played FD in Brawl and we've seen nothing that shows otherwise but plenty that shows it's only FD forms.
Wave dashing is crazy over-played and people need to understand that it's a super situational move that's only actually useful for a select few character. And the speed not adding depth is exactly the problem as it's the thing that has been super changed from brawl. I could explain the differences if you want but I doubt that would change much in your mind
And while I hate the direction smash is going I don't hate Sakurai so please don't lump me with the people saying absolutely ridiculous hyperbolic things in this thread
You're not alone, I was fine with Brawl too
The guy in that video was trying to do a dash dance because supposedly it might have been in a newer build the treehouse guys have been playing (and he's part of the treehouse) but what's actually shown in that video isn't a dash dance, it's a failed attempt at one because you literally can't do it.
In Brawl, dash dancing was sort of there but the window for it was ridiculously small. You could only DD in place, you couldn't perform wider dash dances (as in dash forward a few inches and then dash back that same distance vs dashing forward and back immediately). That on top of random tripping made it useless.
We won't know if they added it or listened to any feedback from E3 post-E3 build until the game comes out. Until then, it's a good idea to assume it's not in the game because that's what the public build shows us.
OmegaSmash
Member
No, it will be you and millions of others.
Smash 4 removing regrabbing the edge for invincibility is one of the hugest changes to smash. I can't speak for 64 since I don't know that game as well, but Melee and Brawl both (especially Brawl) game play suffers from exploiting edge regrab invincibility to the point where tournament rules had to make up a rule that about grabbing the edge too much. If you've witnessed extreme edge camping, it's not very fun.
Now by new game mechanics, this rule is enforced by the game itself. This change could mean people need to get off the edge and keep the fight going on the platform.
This change alone is exciting and why I think Smash 4 can be really good.
Now by new game mechanics, this rule is enforced by the game itself. This change could mean people need to get off the edge and keep the fight going on the platform.
This change alone is exciting and why I think Smash 4 can be really good.
Because they told us in the Smash Direct.
Okay and how long ago was that Smash Direct? You don't think anything would change after seeing Fan reaction to the whole thing? I say we should be waiting for the final game before hating on all these things. I do believe not everything they said in the directs are final and games are always subject to change.
Yup, also the sakurai hate comment was directed towards you, that's why I tried to place it in a different paragraph, should have probably quoted the guy who said it though. Was just silly.
That was a good change.
But then they added the ability to grab the edge whilst someone is already on it as well as already having auto-sweetspotting and multiple air dodges and you have a massively reduced off-stage game, one of the more unique aspects of smash and where most of the potential for exciting comebacks was found.
From the recent footage, all of the FD stage versions have no platforms, they don't listen to fan reaction.
And for glory wasn't intended for the competitive audience anyway, it was intended for the people who only played FD in Brawl.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I think the entire reason this thread exists and there is an issue at all is because Sakurai refuses to listen to the exact people that are saying FD only is a problem. I'm not sure why anyone would have any confidence that he would listen in this case either.
They are also making new modes, stages, items and characters (and changed existing characters). All of which have to be balanced again. Everything the Internet has moaned about applies to Brawl which is why the PM team can use it. Smash 4 is a different game and thus has to have its own testing, which doesn't just include balancing, but bugs as well. Again, the PM team has a lot of benefits a real development team just doesn't have like infinite time and no budget constraints.
I'm looking at Brawl as the complete package. So all I'm saying is if they have to replace code with their own code thus removing a feature they clearly don't see that feature as important. Yes, I realise this is a limitation as a result of hacking a game, but who is to say what features are more important than others?
And I already gave an example. Riding around the stage on Wario's bike.
I agree that only having FD only is an issue, but I want to wait and see if that's really the case before I start flinging shit at Sakurai like some have been already. I mean there is tons of levels that always worked like Delfino Plaza, Kirbys Whispy Woods Levels and the Other Kirby level. I just want to see how it turns out in the end. Even though I'll still be happy as most of my Smash time is spent locally where most of this only FD For Glory isn't much of an issue
OmegaSmash
Member
This is the latest "overview" of sort for Smash on 3DS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omeOylQYkuU
Look at all the no platform stages they show. It even includes past Melee stages as well.
PezDispenser
Banned
Maybe try reading past the first paragraph of the article?
The idea is that these hype-peddling game journalists and their oscar-worthy reviews focus more on the general, overall "experience" of playing a game, while the mechanics and deep workings of a game are often glossed over or at worst, fundamentally misunderstood by the reviewer. As you moves towards games where these mechanics take center stage (i.e. fighting games) the idea of trusting a game journalist's on-release judgement becomes absurd. None of these mainstream reviewers who rated Brawl at release had any clue about these mechanics (the majority of them wrote off the gameplay as being "just like melee" when that clearly isn't the case) and even if they did, it takes competitive communities months if not years of working together and experimenting to fully evaluate the full scope of the mechanics in a new game. These reviews are nowhere near being an objective analysis of the inner workings of the actual game, and much closer to a gushing fanboy blog post, and the arbitrary numbers attached to them and averaged together in the image you posted reflect exactly that and not much else. That being said, Brawl is a great piece of fanservice, if that's all you're looking for...
There's a 5 minute video and 2 tv commercials for the game released in the last week.
They all show that for glory stages are only a flat platform, for every stage.
Even Battlefield has it's platforms removed in it's for glory version.
GameGuru59
Banned
I'm pretty sure you weren't invincible while on the edge in Smash 64.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
As a matter of fact, yes, I don't think they'd change anything. It was announced pretty late in development, probably too late to try changing it. And it looks like it's gonna be the case, since even returning stages like Corneria and Brinstar have already been seen in Final Destination form.
Holy Order Sol
Member
You clearly aren't reading if that's what you understand from this.
We all want to enjoy the game, but for some of us, Sakurai's design philosophies threaten to interfere with that.
Posts like this always come across as "ignore your personal taste and opinions and take whatever you're given."
K thanks for the video, I don't follow most games super close like that so thanks for pointing that out for me. I think myself they should mix it up with some platforms, but even then I'm mostly a local smash player, so most of this stuff isn't super big for me. In the "For Fun" mode is there any item options at all, or is it all gonna be all items all the time? Also will you have a choice between "Stocks" or "Timed" fights?
balladofwindfishes
Member
I'm not a fan of Ivysaur or Lucas's movesets in Project M. I think their changes to Lucas made him more complicated as a move set, but cheapened him as a character (he lacks voice lines for his specials for example).
They also took Sakurai's efforts to de-clone Falco and reverted him back to being a clone, so we lose some diversity in the cast, rather than working with what they had and balancing it with Falco's changes in mind.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
IIRC in all three games you got brief invincibility when you grabbed the ledge. You don't keep it as long as you're there, it only lasts a second or so. Hence ledge hopping.
It's been so long since I played 64 I may be mistaken though.