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[Suzushiiro]

What's funny is that there have been some 4chan threads over the past few days half-jokingly claiming that the Doritos Pope was actually a hero trying to keep game journalism pure by selling it out to companies other than the ones whose products they were covering.

 

[Foffy]

Didn't know you had to be published/interview people in order to know about journalistic principles.

But if that's the case, I have been published, I have interviewed people from/related to the game industry. And no, I will not say where. I am not calling myself a journalist, but I sure as hell know than other than OP ED pieces, a journalist is supposed to keep their opinions out of their news articles, interviews and reports.

So yeah, keep approaching a possible interview with that kind of attitude, but don't expect others to see you as a proper journalist.

I posted this before, but seems people like you need a reminder:

Does the latter include advertising influence? Because if so a lot of places are already red flagged.

And in case I have to elaborate, I am talking over the years. Nothing to do with the current topic that's started with Zoe Quinn.

 

[wonderdung]

Kotaku has addressed the ethical issues that have been brought up over the past few weeks. Twice. Yet we are still the number one target on the GamerGate hashtag. I can certainly see the "obvious bias and malice."

Perhaps Kotaku could do an impartial investigative story either repudiating or confirming the allegations of favoritism in the IGF awards.

Because if there is corruption in the IGF awards (beyond what's already known and admitted to, at least), then revealing and fixing it would be a big help to indies. And if there isn't, providing solid investigative evidence of that would be a big help to the IGF. Plus, everyone just expects the gaming press to ignore potential issues in indie-land and continue writing derailing articles about misogyny and whiny gamers like they always have.

GamerGate is providing tons of opportunities for good sites to distinguish themselves. Look at it this way... your competitors are actively trying to tank their own reputations with their "gamers are dying" articles. The ethics changes are an excellent start but there is a lot more ground that could be covered to set you guys apart.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

Sorry, Jason, but the reason Kotaku is being targeted in the #GamerGate hashtag is because Totilo has a history of saying game journalism corruption is a 'non-story', because the timing of the Nathan Grayson thing is somewhat sketchy and because Patricia Hernandez is an extremely unethical 'journalist' (quite frankly, I think it's an insult to the profession to even refer to her as that non-ironically). The timing of the stealth updates to her articles are more than a little suspect, and the fact that the updates even had to be made is downright shameful.

So, yeah, Kotaku is absolutely deserving of the heat it's getting.

Seems it's not affecting your views, though. From your responses on this page, it sounds like that's what you most care about...good for you, I guess.

 

[sephi22]

https://mobile.twitter.com/phubans/status/506976337127436288

 

[Gsak]

In class so cant check the thread but did someone post the flak @phubans is getting on twitter?

Wonder if this deserves a new thread. It's horrible times when someone can't speak his mind without being blacklisted from his peers. I'm disgusted.

 

[jschreier]

Sorry, Jason, but the reason Kotaku is being targeted in the #GamerGate hashtag is because Totilo has a history of saying game journalism corruption is a 'non-story', because the timing of the Nathan Grayson thing is somewhat sketchy and because Patricia Hernandez is an extremely unethical 'journalist' (quite frankly, I think it's an insult to the profession to even refer to her as that non-ironically). The timing of the stealth updates to her articles are more than a little suspect, and the fact that the updates even had to be made is downright shameful.

So, yeah, Kotaku is absolutely deserving of the heat it's getting.

Seems it's not affecting your views, though. From your responses on this page, it sounds like that's what you most care about...good for you, I guess.

The timing of the updates is not suspect. Stephen addressed them directly on Kotaku:
http://kotaku.com/a-brief-note-about-the-continued-discussion-about-kotak-1627041269
http://kotaku.com/im-not-sure-which-sources-youre-looking-at-but-questio-1627098933

He also addressed the Nathan Grayson story directly on Kotaku:
http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346

Hope that all helps. Anyway, if I only cared about views, I would not be making hundreds and thousands of posts about game journalism on NeoGAF.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

Hernandez should have been fired for writing those articles.

And it's fairly clear you use NeoGAF as a news source for your stories. This place is part of your 'beat', as it were. That's why you post here, I'm pretty sure.

 

[sephi22]

Wonder if this deserves a new thread. It's horrible times when someone can't speak his mind without being blacklisted from his peers. I'm disgusted.

I think it does. This thread is all over the place and we finally have named devs speaking out (phubans and the eastern eu guy)

 

[Shinta]

The timing of the updates is not suspect. Stephen addressed them directly on Kotaku:
http://kotaku.com/a-brief-note-about-the-continued-discussion-about-kotak-1627041269
http://kotaku.com/im-not-sure-which-sources-youre-looking-at-but-questio-1627098933

He also addressed the Nathan Grayson story directly on Kotaku:
http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346

Hope that all helps. Anyway, if I only cared about views, I would not be in making hundreds and thousands of posts about game journalism on NeoGAF.

I do appreciate stuff you've said in here. I spend way too much time on this stuff, and I didn't even know Stephen talked about the Patricia thing. This stuff takes a couple days to be seen, so I guess be patient.

I'm fine with what he did ... I guess. I don't really enjoy seeing people lose their jobs over minor things. It was kinda shady, but if he's had "the talk" with everyone and you guys learned from it, it's an improvement. And we can assume it would be harsher response going forward.

I think I agree with wonderdung though, up above a few posts. I get that you have to be super skeptical and to sift through it all, and to only post what can be vetted, and no one wants to talk about it. But there is still opportunity in this, ironically. Maybe it won't pan out, but I guess you never know.

Wonderdug is so right though. Pursuing the IGF story would not be anti-indie dev. It would help all indie devs immensely that aren't part of the popular clique. And even if it's false, that would help the IGF, because now they're a joke.

 

[Gsak]

Anyway, if I only cared about views, I would not be making hundreds and thousands of posts about game journalism on NeoGAF.

Then prove it. Open a line of communication with your audience, officially invite people to send their articles regarding corruption in media, to Kotaku and speak their minds. Post said articles on your site. NeoGaf alone is not enough and you are clever enough to know that.

 

[Zornack]

Hernandez should have been fired for writing those articles.

And it's fairly clear you use NeoGAF as a news source for your stories. This place is part of your 'beat', as it were. That's why you post here, I'm pretty sure.

That's a pretty rude thing to say. He has no obligation to post and engage in in thread and others like it (the one about youtubers and disclosure comes to mind) except that he seems to care about the integrity of games journalism. Plus if he only used NeoGAF to source stories then he wouldn't have any reason to actually post.

 

[Shinta]

Then prove it. Open a line of communication with your audience, officially invite people to send their articles regarding corruption in media, to Kotaku and speak their minds.

To his credit, he actually already did that.

Post articles on your site.

But hasn't done this yet.

 

[daegan]

It's slightly off-topic, but it does bring up an interesting point that is relevant to this discussion — it seems more and more developers and publishers are eschewing the press in favor of controlling the entire story about their games. There have been a lot more instances in the past 12 months of review copies being held back, and not necessarily for fear of bad reviews. And look at the stuff Blizzard and Riot are doing with their in-house content that is as good or better than anything coming out of gaming publications.

Here's the scary part: at this stage of the game, I'd almost rather all my info come from the marketing and PR teams of Activision or Ubisoft or whoever than needlessly filtered through a rewording from a major game news site. That's perhaps a bigger threat to the games press than this latest drama.

It does make you wonder how much faith they have in their product. While there is no moral obligation to let the press review a game prior to a product being launched, it most definitely makes me skeptical on their confidence on said product.

Let me make myself a little more clear on this point: no reviewer or outlet who posts a launch-day review of an online product has your interest in mind. There is simply no way they will experience the game in any fashion similar to the way you will. That's why I brought it up - I'm not saying it's a deal breaker, but it reflects poorly in my eyes when an outlet posts a same-day review of an online game for this reason.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

That's a pretty rude thing to say. He has no obligation to post and engage in in thread and others like it (the one about youtubers and disclosure comes to mind) except that he seems to care about the integrity of games journalism. Plus if he only used NeoGAF to source stories then he wouldn't have any reason to actually post.

I wasn't being rude, I was being direct. At least half of Jason's posts consist of either him hyping something on Kotaku or defending Kotaku. He's also used NeoGAF numerous times as a source for stories, or referenced it to add flavor to an article. It's pretty easy to extrapolate from there what his reasons are for posting here.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Wonder if this deserves a new thread. It's horrible times when someone can't speak his mind without being blacklisted from his peers. I'm disgusted.

I wouldn't want to work with people who were buying conspiratorial nonsense instead of say, actual journalistic information and using dodges like "why can't we talk about the games" after doing so to get away with it, I might not work with him later.

For instance, if I was in the movie industry and retweeted a Youtube video about the indie movie scene being corrupt without any actual proof, I bet I'd get some backlash.

 

[daegan]

Hernandez should have been fired for writing those articles.

And it's fairly clear you use NeoGAF as a news source for your stories. This place is part of your 'beat', as it were. That's why you post here, I'm pretty sure.

Plenty of sites lurk and crib news from here. That's a pretty silly accusation.

 

[Gsak]

To his credit, he actually already did that.

But hasn't done this yet.

Look, I appreciate that Jason is here and talking about this, no matter our differing opinions on certain subjects. But as I said before, Gaf is not enough. Myriads of gamers who aren't members here.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

Plenty of sites lurk and crib news from here. That's a pretty silly accusation.

So because Jason's not the only one who does it, it's 'silly'? I'm really not getting your point.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm just saying, let's not kid ourselves regarding Jason's reasons for being here.

 

[SenorArdilla]

Plenty of sites lurk and crib news from here. That's a pretty silly accusation.

Which is why "GAF -> Internet -> GAF" is a thing.

 

[APF]

Fess up, which one of you guys is Hironobu Sakaguchi?

 

[Deitus]

Let me make myself a little more clear on this point: no reviewer or outlet who posts a launch-day review of an online product has your interest in mind. There is simply no way they will experience the game in any fashion similar to the way you will. That's why I brought it up - I'm not saying it's a deal breaker, but it reflects poorly in my eyes when an outlet posts a same-day review of an online game for this reason.

Absolutely agree. That's why I appreciate what Kotaku does with their review of online games. If a game has a significant online component, they will only do a partial review of the single player component, and list the verdict as "Not Yet" pending the complete review of the online portion after the retail servers go live. If a game is a purely online experience, they post an article explaining that the full review will come later, but give some initial impressions on the game. I'm not big on game reviews either way, but that's the way to do right by your audience when it comes to online games.

Not sure if other sites have done a similar practice. I know the Polygon "in flux" reviews that they implemented around the time of Sim City were pretty embarrassing, and the wrong way to approach this problem.

 

[daegan]

So because Jason's not the only one who does it, it's 'silly'? I'm really not getting your point.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm just saying, let's not kid ourselves regarding Jason's reasons for being here.

I'm sure if there were threads here accusing you of doing x when you can demonstrate that you actually don't do x, you do y, you would post in those threads too. Sheesh.

 

[Gsak]

I wouldn't want to work with people who were buying conspiratorial nonsense instead of say, actual journalistic information and using dodges like "why can't we talk about the games" after doing so to get away with it, I might not work with him later.

For instance, if I was in the movie industry and retweeted a Youtube video about the indie movie scene being corrupt without any actual proof, I bet I'd get some backlash.

Ok, we get what's your stance on this subject Jesse. Nice to see you approve of his career being in danger because he simply spoke his mind. Real classy.

Also since we are talking "dodging" seems to me that you dodge that this situation proves more than ever that the indie scene, for all intents and purposes, acts and functions like a "clique".

 

[JesseEwiak]

Ok, we get what's your stance on this subject Jesse. Nice to see you approve of his career being in danger because he simply spoke his mind. Real classy.

Also since we are talking "dodging" seems to me that you dodge that this situation proves more than ever that the indie scene, for all intents and purposes, acts and functions like a "clique".

I don't approve or disapprove. Just that decisions have consequences. If you're in an industry with lots of black people, don't retweet conservative Obama pictures. If you're in an industry with a lot of gay people, don't retweet anti-gay shit. And if you're in an industry with a lot of people attacked by a certain group of people, don't retweet those groups of people.

I don't feel bad for this guy. I don't feel bad for Brendan Eich. Sorry.

I don't think that's a huge deal. Society is a clique. If there are actual problems with the IGF, fine. But, I don't believe this any more than I buy any other non-sourced Youtube video.

 

[ultron87]

Ok, we get what's your stance on this subject Jesse. Nice to see you approve of his career being in danger because he simply spoke his mind. Real classy.

Also since we are talking "dodging" seems to me that you dodge that this situation proves more than ever that the indie scene, for all intents and purposes, acts and functions like a "clique".

He spoke his mind by endorsing a video book ended by really hateful views that was also full of rather serious accusations about people in his field backed up by such evidence as "these people talked on Twitter". If that videos represents what is on his mind I don't see why there shouldn't be repercussions.

 

[Shinta]

He spoke his mind by endorsing a video book ended by really hateful views that was also full of rather serious accusations about people in his field backed up by such evidence as "these people talked on Twitter". If that videos represents what is on his mind I don't see why there shouldn't be repercussions.

1) posts on twitter about a youtube video

2) career destroyed?

Seems kind of unfair. Who is destroying it anyway? Someone needs to make that thread so I can follow it. If the press is involved in that at all, that is quite bad. Other indie developers can feel however they want, but you would think that sabotaging a peer like that would not reflect too kindly on them either.

 

[Gsak]

I don't approve or disapprove. Just that decisions have consequences. If you're in an industry with lots of black people, don't retweet conservative Obama pictures. If you're in an industry with a lot of gay people, don't retweet anti-gay shit. And if you're in an industry with a lot of people attacked by a certain group of people, don't retweet those groups of people.

I don't feel bad for this guy. I don't feel bad for Brendan Eich. Sorry.

I don't think that's a huge deal. Society is a clique. If there are actual problems with the IGF, fine. But, I don't believe this any more than I buy any other non-sourced Youtube video.

He spoke his mind by endorsing a video book ended by really hateful views that was also full of rather serious accusations about people in his field backed up by such evidence as "these people talked on Twitter". If that videos represents what is on his mind I don't see why there shouldn't be repercussions.

Have you EVER paused for a second and think that "This guy IS a member of the indie scene and perhaps he knows more than we do about corruption in said scene"? Or do you claim to have intimate knowledge of the scene and know that he was definitely wrong? Read his tweet, he ALREADY had suspicions. Wonder why? https://twitter.com/phubans/status/506924028335239168

 

[JesseEwiak]

1) posts on twitter about a youtube video

2) career destroyed?

Seems kind of unfair. Who is destroying it anyway? Someone needs to make that thread so I can follow it. If the press is involved in that at all, that is quite bad. Other indie developers can feel however they want, but you would think that sabotaging a peer like that would not reflect too kindly on them either.

If say, I was a Democratic Party staffer, and linked to a video showing how Obama was obviously planning to send people to FEMA camps, or I was a public employee of Wal-Mart, and linked to a video that showed how Wal-Mart was union busting, to show both "good" and "bad" links, I'd expect blowback.

Have you EVER paused for a second and think that "This guy IS a member of the indie scene and perhaps he knows more than we do about corruption in said scene"? Or do you claim to have intimate knowledge of the scene and know that he was definitely wrong? Read his tweet, he ALREADY had suspicions. Wonder why? https://twitter.com/phubans/status/506924028335239168

I don't know. I checked the link to his Tumblr, to show the games he has made. They seem fine, but of the same 8-bit/16-bit nostalgia trip that's been going on for a few years now. And he released a mobile game. Sorry, it doesn't look like he's been held down by corruption. It's looked like he's been held down because his games are pretty average to above-average. Not saying that's terrible, but in indies games in 2014, that's not going to get you anywhere.

No, nobody needs to make a thread about how a guy tweeting a conspiracy videos attacking colleagues, somehow got colleagues upset at him and thus produced consequences for his working with colleagues.

Again, it's like people have never worked in a close-knit industry.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

1) posts on twitter about a youtube video

2) career destroyed?

Seems kind of unfair. Who is destroying it anyway? Someone needs to make that thread so I can follow it. If the press is involved in that at all, that is quite bad. Other indie developers can feel however they want, but you would think that sabotaging a peer like that would not reflect too kindly on them either.

No, nobody needs to make a thread about how a guy tweeting a conspiracy videos attacking colleagues, somehow got colleagues upset at him and thus produced consequences for his working with colleagues.

 

[daegan]

2) career destroyed?

what do you people actually think indie means? if you make a good game, it will get some level of appreciation; it might not win awards but if you really think that IGF is the first ever awards to be accused of impropriety......

ultimately the person who can make or destroy his career is himself and his audience. nobody else pays him. if he wants or needs a bigger audience, then he can work for that. is it EASIER to work at it if you get along with established individuals, for better or for worse? sure. who you know is a hell of a lot of everything, no matter what you do.

 

[Shinta]

If say, I was a Democratic Party staffer, and linked to a video showing how Obama was obviously planning to send people to FEMA camps, or I was a public employee of Wal-Mart, and linked to a video that showed how Wal-Mart was union busting, to show both "good" and "bad" links, I'd expect blowback.

I would hope the entirety of "indie-games" can't really be compared to an organized political party.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I would hope the entirety of "indie-games" can't really be compared to an organized political party.

Here's a better example. If I was a climate scientist, and linked to a video to show how climate change was all a sham, yeah, I'd expect some people to be upset about me. Or, if I was a Tea Party organizer, if I linked to a video about how Tea Partiers were racist. Or, if I was a indy wrestler, if I linked to a video implying a certain indy fed was corrupt.

 

[APF]

What if you were a Hollywood director and you said Jews were responsible for all the wars in the world? Do you think maybe some people in Hollywood might not want to have anything to do with you for a long time?

 

[JesseEwiak]

What if you were a Hollywood director and you said Jews were responsible for all the wars in the world? Do you think maybe some people in Hollywood might not want to have anything to do with you for a long time?

Well, it'd be more like if I was a relatively low-level director and I implied some film festival run by some mumblecore's (to name a genre that "real film" fans don't like) girlfriend was corrupt, because he won an award at it, despite his movie being well reviewed other place.

 

[FartOfWar]

what do you people actually think indie means? if you make a good game, it will get some level of appreciation; it might not win awards but if you really think that IGF is the first ever awards to be accused of impropriety......

ultimately the person who can make or destroy his career is himself and his audience. nobody else pays him. if he wants or needs a bigger audience, then he can work for that. is it EASIER to work at it if you get along with established individuals, for better or for worse? sure. who you know is a hell of a lot of everything, no matter what you do.

I asked him to clarify what happened in concrete terms, cos yeah until then the claim is meaningless. Indie is some seriously strange shit though. It's too broad a category to pigeonhole but the subset that rolls into GDC like a college club mafia and is all about the IGF seems pretty gross. On the other end of the spectrum you have folks like those who made Gone Home and are making Magic Circle.

 

[Deitus]

1) posts on twitter about a youtube video

2) career destroyed?

Seems kind of unfair. Who is destroying it anyway? Someone needs to make that thread so I can follow it. If the press is involved in that at all, that is quite bad. Other indie developers can feel however they want, but you would think that sabotaging a peer like that would not reflect too kindly on them either.

It's hard to say based on his tweets exactly how his career is destroyed. He posts the video, then shortly afterward notices he lost a lot of twitter followers, then starts going off about how he is being blackballed. Maybe I am just not twitter literate, but I don't even see any threats from people saying his career would suffer. I guess it's possible the tweets in question were deleted, or that all of that occurred in private correspondence.

There were people who criticized his choice to post that video, and maybe those same people unfollowed him. And in an industry where networking is fairly important, losing important contacts certainly can't help. But unless there is some correspondence I am missing here, I am not seeing an organized campaign to ruin him for speaking out.

Have you EVER paused for a second and think that "This guy IS a member of the indie scene and perhaps he knows more than we do about corruption in said scene"? Or do you claim to have intimate knowledge of the scene and know that he was definitely wrong? Read his tweet, he ALREADY had suspicions. Wonder why? https://twitter.com/phubans/status/506924028335239168

Could just be that he is paranoid, and when people criticized him he blew it out of proportion. Maybe people were just sick of hearing people talk about that on twitter and unfollowed him, but would still be willing to work with him in the future. We really don't know.

What if you were a Hollywood director and you said Jews were responsible for all the wars in the world? Do you think maybe some people in Hollywood might not want to have anything to do with you for a long time?

Well, Mel Gibson does seem to continue to get work. Not saying his career shouldn't have suffered, but I guess he was just big enough of a name that he could get away with it somewhat.

 

[marrec]

Have you EVER paused for a second and think that "This guy IS a member of the indie scene and perhaps he knows more than we do about corruption in said scene"? Or do you claim to have intimate knowledge of the scene and know that he was definitely wrong? Read his tweet, he ALREADY had suspicions. Wonder why? https://twitter.com/phubans/status/506924028335239168

What is this "indie scene"?

Is chubs a member? Or feep? They made well received indie games.

Can we define who is involved in this cabal?

 

[Gsak]

There were people who criticized his choice to post that video, and maybe those same people unfollowed him. And in an industry where networking is fairly important, losing important contacts certainly can't help. But unless there is some correspondence I am missing here, I am not seeing an organized campaign to ruin him for speaking out.



Could just be that he is paranoid, and when people criticized him he blew it out of proportion. Maybe people were just sick of hearing people talk about that on twitter and unfollowed him, but would still be willing to work with him in the future. We really don't know.

Yet some people in here, act and speak as if they know for sure, that he, a member of the indie scene, know less than them about the happenings in there. Weird, huh?

What is this "indie scene"?

Is chubs a member? Or feep? They made well received indie games.

Can we define who is involved in this cabal?

If you don't know what it is, then google it, like the rest of the world. You may also want to look up "inappropriate sarcasm" while you're at it.

 

[Shinta]

But unless there is some correspondence I am missing here, I am not seeing an organized campaign to ruin him for speaking out.

Well that's what I was curious about. I don't know anything about it yet so I just wanted to hear a few details since people brought it up.

 

[RadarScope1]

The guy tweeted a video that has less credibility than Loose Change or some Obama birth certificate mumbo jumbo. It's perfectly right and fair to get called out on that by your peers. As many have said, if there are issues with IGF then let's get some real reporting on it. As a former journalist myself I agree that the indie community has nothing to lose and a lot to gain if a light is shined on the IGF and we know what is - or is not - happening. Maybe this guy can be a source, anonymous even.

The "career over" stuff is a bit much, though. It's been like, a couple hours? Give your audience more credit than that.

 

[APF]

Well, Mel Gibson does seem to continue to get work. Not saying his career shouldn't have suffered, but I guess he was just big enough of a name that he could get away with it somewhat.

Well unlike independent devs he has money. Also hollywood is keen on accepting superficial apologies and moving on after people have mostly forgotten.

 

[JMargaris]

Here's a better example. If I was a climate scientist, and linked to a video to show how climate change was all a sham, yeah, I'd expect some people to be upset about me. Or, if I was a Tea Party organizer, if I linked to a video about how Tea Partiers were racist. Or, if I was a indy wrestler, if I linked to a video implying a certain indy fed was corrupt.

These examples don't make a lick of sense.

In these cases, as with your previous examples, you're doing something that makes you incompetent at your job and actively sabotaging an employer. If you are a Tea Party organizer it's your job to organize the Tea Party. If you actively work against the TP you are a terrible employee.

This guy is not employed by the IGF or by the PR company the IGF uses. Attacking the IGF doesn't make him bad at his job.

The correct analogy here is a key grip attacking the Oscars. So what? The job of the key grip isn't to promote the Oscars, nor does employing that key grip adversely effect your odds of winning an Oscar, assuming you had any chance to begin with.

People in film and TV call awards shows into question all the time. Hell, the hosts of awards shows call awards shows into question.

It's hard to say based on his tweets exactly how his career is destroyed. He posts the video, then shortly afterward notices he lost a lot of twitter followers, then starts going off about how he is being blackballed

Yep. I don't think it's right to blackball someone for their opinions but there's no evidence that that is happening.

 

[Gsak]

The "career over" stuff is a bit much, though. It's been like, a couple hours? Give your audience more credit than that.

Good for him that Patreon, Kickstarter exist. Combined with the support of many people after what happened, I hope he won't have major problems.

As many have said, if there are issues with IGF then let's get some real reporting on it. As a former journalist myself I agree that the indie community has nothing to lose and a lot to gain if a light is shined on the IGF and we know what is - or is not - happening. Maybe this guy can be a source, anonymous even.

Much agreed. Let's hope that some, actual decent journalists will get on it and report.

 

[JMargaris]

What is this "indie scene"?

Is chubs a member? Or feep? They made well received indie games.

Can we define who is involved in this cabal?

The IGF is a specific organization not "the indie scene." The IGF has a history of problems and it's completely reasonable for people to approach it with a certain degree of distrust.

This is an organization largely known for handing out awards that defends the practice of judges not actually playing the entrants!

Edit: I am aware of at least one case of a large number of (mostly) indie devs effectively blackballing someone, pledging never to hire them over an opinion they expressed. An opinion that was not particularly awful either. So it does happen, but in that case it was extremely obvious - literally dozens of developers piling on in public saying "never ever hire this guy we're better off without his kind."

And no, that person was not me!

 

[Deitus]

Yet some people in here, act and speak as if they know for sure, that he, a member of the indie scene, know less than them about the happenings in there. Weird, huh?

Obviously we don't know more than him what he has experienced. But just because we don't know what happened, doesn't mean that the only account we have been offered is the total and complete truth. I'm not even saying he's lying, but that he might be letting his emotions get the better of him and jumping to conclusions. Or it's possible he's correct, but I don't think we can just take it for granted that he is.

Well that's what I was curious about. I don't know anything about it yet so I just wanted to hear a few details since people brought it up.

Yeah, I would be really curious to hear more details of his story. I very much doubt there is some grand indie cabal that could somehow keep him from getting work, but it is possible that a number of friends of Zoe said something threatening to him and his future in the industry. I don't really want to speculate, or just assume the worst, when even he isn't saying any details. But if someone got more information out of him I would certainly like to hear it.

Well unlike independent devs he has money. Also hollywood is keen on accepting superficial apologies and moving on after people have mostly forgotten.

Definitely. I don't think Mel Gibson's situation is comparable to an indie dev's, of course. I was just kind of musing about how surprising it is that his comments didn't hurt him more. But that's Hollywood I guess.

 

[marrec]

The IGF is a specific organization not "the indie scene." The IGF has a history of problems and it's completely reasonable for people to approach it with a certain degree of distrust.

This is an organization largely known for handing out awards that defends the practice of judges not actually playing the entrants!

So the IGF should be the target of our ire?

That seems rather limited in scope.

 

[RadarScope1]

Good for him that Patreon, Kickstarter exist. Combined with the support of many people after what happened, I hope he won't have major problems.

Sure. And I hope those who might be newly supporting him are doing so for the quality of his work, not only because they read a tweet and though "fuck yeah, I agree." Never heard of the guy but no one should get whiplashed one way or another for a single tweet.

 

[marrec]

If you don't know what it is, then google it, like the rest of the world. You may also want to look up "inappropriate sarcasm" while you're at it.

I Googled it but couldn't find a roaster that included the guy who tweeted of his career being ruined by unnamed people and not maybe his mediocre games.

 

[Gsak]

Sure. And I hope those who might be newly supporting him are doing so for the quality of his work, not only because they read a tweet and though "fuck yeah, I agree." Never heard of the guy but no one should get whiplashed one way or another for a single tweet.

You know what really bothers me? So far, every indie dev who spoke his mind and it was deemed not "acceptable", got the "whip". And here's my question. If the scene is "indie", and they wanted to just make games and NOT be like the "big, bad" industry, then why in the hell aren't those people simply making games, instead of apparently ganging up on anyone who has a different view than theirs? Live and let live.

All these days I keep hearing about GamerGate being about "boys wanting their boys club to themselves alone", but right now what I see is that the "indie" scene, acting like a very special, esoteric club that enforces their collective view to all their members, and ousts anyone who disagrees.

I really hope that's not the case, or at least there are certain members of it who act this way, but recently I am being proven wrong to hope so, every day.

I Googled it but couldn't find a roaster that included the guy who tweeted of his career being ruined by unnamed people and not maybe his mediocre games.

Yeah ok, now go troll elsewhere.