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[GutZ31]

I grew up Muslim. I heard this sort of ridiculous argument all the time: well if you really don't support terrorism why don't you preface every political opinion you have with a condemnation of terrorism? Why doesn't every Muslim preface every political opinion they have with a condemnation of terrorism? It's the same argument as the conservative meme about black people not talking about black-on-black crime. Oh you're black and you want to talk about police brutality? Well why don't you condemn black-on-black crime first?

Suffice to say, I don't much care for this line of argumentation. People shouldn't have to explicitly distance themselves from extremists, it should be assumed unless they say or do something that would cause a reasonable person to assume they agree with extremists.

My god, you have had it rough.
Not only a gamer being prosecuted, but also for your religious beliefs.
I hate to even call myself American sometimes, it gets completely ridiculous with the mental loophole jumping people come up with to make sense of their own arguments.

What you have described is so perfect, it is hard to find a better analogy.
For lack of a better comparison:
Attack on Gamers = Attack on Religion

Your belief in the joys that gaming brings is under attack.
Your belief in the joys that religion brings is under attack.

 

[Hot Coldman]

The guy you linked to is an absolute shithead.

Noted. His replies are garbage, yes. But he didn't alter that screencap afaik

 

[KHlover]

what the hell is a cis white male?

A straight white male.

 

[ExVicis]

That's why you shouldn't use their shit.

I don't though. I only calls it like I sees it based on what independent research and reading I do. As it stands regardless of the reasons why 4chan claims nepotism there's nepotism and such clearly in the press (and it's not because of Zoe Quinn) and I'm sad this is what it took to make people take a stand against it.

 

[Dryk]

Eron and Zoe agreed on the idea that if their partner were to cheat on them, and then had sex with them, it would be considered rape because they would not consent if they knew.

Then, well, y'know.

The alledged (last time I checked) affair has no bearing on the discussion of unhealthy developer-journalist relationships though. That point is probably the biggest taint hanging over the entire discussion.

 

[failgubbe]

So this whole thing has come down to journalist and other folk "giving back" hate. Pretty fucking dumb

 

[unround]

A straight white male.

Cis and straight refer to different things. Cis, or cisgender refers to gender identity while straight refers to sexuality.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

very good point. the religion of Islam is something where "#notallmuslims" is actually the exact opposite of the situation we got here.

i do believe the difference is that while muslims are receiving actual harassment and abuse for being of the same belief as those that claim to base their terrorist activity on said religion, gamers here don't seem to be feeling any impact other than the reputation of their hobby being tarnished.
so i do believe - while structurally comparable - these 2 situations are vastly different considering the effects the "generalisation of an entire community". i don't think gamers are having a super hard time right now.

Well no, but a community doesn't have to be objectively having a super hard time in order to feel oppressed and put-upon by society at large. In the US a lot of Christians feel that there's a society-wide conspiracy to marginalize and ostracize them, which is why they get so worked up about stupid bullshit like the "War on Christmas." Gamers are certainly more oppressed than Christians are, even if they're not objectively very oppressed by the standards of, say, African-Americans or homosexuals or women in the games industry. Of course, there is always a group more oppressed than yours, which is why I don't think it's really very productive to tell people they have no right to feel oppressed just because there are more oppressed people in the world.

 

[Hot Coldman]

A straight white male.

Nah, it's people who identify as the gender they were given at birth. I'm born male, identify as male and have always been assigned a male gender. So I'm cis. I'm also bisexual - still cis.

I don't though. I only calls it like I sees it based on what independent research and reading I do. As it stands regardless of the reasons why 4chan claims nepotism there's nepotism and such clearly in the press (and it's not because of Zoe Quinn) and I'm sad this is what it took to make people take a stand against it.

I actually agree about the presence of nepotism in the press. People just need better examples. I could name about five right now, but the nature of this debate is skeezy enough to make me wanna address such things in a calmer manner less readily linked to other, blatantly vile shit.

 

[AppleMIX]

My problem with the argument is that it stems on the idea that gamers are a culture. A notion I completely disagree with. Activities that have considerably less people engaging in them are not considered a culture and a fail to see how a medium that is must larger some how qualifies a culture. Even if you limit your definition to core games, you are literally talking about millions upon millions of people. If you use the word "gamers" to talk about who are bigoted then it becomes an incredibly shitty definition for those people. If she wrote "bigots, your time is up" or "People who send death threats/hate mail,your time is up", I somehow doubt many reasonable people would have a problem with the article.

Frankly this whole this reeks of a shaming movement in a attempt to get the quite majority on their side and I feel that she left the term intentionally vague to stir up the fires. Frankly, the "describegamersin4words" hashtag isn't really helping.

For a far better analysis on game culture, this video does a better job than I debunking it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oL5yoyBPVo&list=UUp0VNp8fSJu3OmHQnD2fu0w

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Least Destiny comes out next week, I'll be able to get back to what I actually enjoy about gaming...you know gaming.

 

[dsiOne]

I feel like this whole #Gamergate controversy could actually cause some change, if they just divorce the movement from the whole anti-SJW angle. There's a lot of anger about bad journalism, corruption, and real issues being wasted on shitting on Zoe Quinn & any other controversial woman in gaming. This movement is being swept up with the anti-feminist crowd, and making the message as a whole muddy & unattractive.

They're anti-SJW and largely anti-feminist. Not anti-equality. Sadly real-life feminism has very little in common with internet feminism. (and of course, there are hardly any SJWs to comment on in real life, though the ones that do exist are great examples of SJWs in general)

 

[thepotatoman]

I feel like what's going on in the gaming press is just an extension of what went on back in the "gamers are so entitled and disgusting" days. The words have changed, but the sentiment has changed: "we hate our gross audience."

Likewise, I feel like the 'conspiracy' thing hasn't really changed. We've had gamers complaining about conspiracies in the industry since the beginning of time. Journalists seem to view games one way, gamers seem to have a broader range of responses, so there's always been a tension there (which is probably what launched the 'we hate our audience' thing above).

I personally feel like there are a couple things that made this a gendered discussion, and I'd like to talk about why that is, but I feel that doing so might result in digressions I'm not interested in having.

Suffice it to say, I think we're seeing a deeper grudge/gripe/whatever, and it found a weak spot, and now it's boiling over.

The only reason I highlight this is because I feel that being aware of this is the only way to put a halt to it.

It does bother me that there's a history of journalists that care more about protecting game developers and game journalists from real criticism than they care about their own audience, but I think it's rather different when we're talking about women and minorities.

It's one thing for journalists to attack gamers for being resistant towards anti-consumer practices. It's another for journalists to attack gamers for getting extremely defensive and aggressive at the thought of being more cognizant of how women and minorities are portrayed in our games.

What bugged me with not all men is that someone deliberately linked me to something claiming just that--all men were rapists, necrophiliacs, and killers obsessed with destroying women. So when I responded, of course I got lumped in with a bunch of people I totally agree with.

It's like "hey, I'm a normal dude, and I don't act like this, so I think calling me all these horrible things is off the mark."

"You horrible monster, you align yourself with #notallmen!"

I call bull. I'm betting that person you're talking about never said anything of the sort.

#notallmen is a joke because everyone knows not every man is a bigot or a rapist. When people talk about social inequality, they don't need to be told that some men out there are decent people, its freaking obvious to everyone that that's true. That's typically just a crappy excuse to ignore the systemic problems our society is facing. Some might call all men into action in doing more to fix the problem of rape in our culture, but not that all men are alleyway rapists.

If someone is honestly, truly of the belief that every single man is an evil rapist, it's probably because they have had extremely traumatic experiences with men and it's best to give them space rather than get all defensive about it.

 

[bootski]

So his video is only in response to random people on twitter yelling dumb shit in 140 characters or less? Then why is he rallying the troops to talk back to the game companies that "we're not bigots"? Why did he specifically say the media is calling all gamers bigots? I ask you, what media of note is calling all gamers bigots, including old ladies playing candy crush or whatever the example is? Who exactly is doing this?

https://archive.today/l1kTW

this is the one he linked to on his last video about the subject. the word bigot isn't used in it specifically but the tone is pretty clear. i don't agree that anyone is outright CALLING gamers bigots but the few articles that i've read from the gaming media about this debacle certainly implies that it's either one way or another; one being that you're super progressive and fully support Anita/Zoe/etc or you're a dirty basement dwelling gamer whose time is running out.

all that said, boogie's reaction is probably more based on the social aspect of it i.e. the tumblrs, twitters,etc as there has been A LOT of shit thrown the way of "gamers".

quote from the article i linked

“Gamer” isn’t just a dated demographic label that most people increasingly prefer not to use. Gamers are over. That’s why they’re so mad.

These obtuse shitslingers, these wailing hyper-consumers, these childish internet-arguers -- they are not my audience.

 

[Petrae]

It also doesn't help that this "gamer" culture has been constantly ridiculed and derided over the years in all forms of media - for some people, this is the last straw, and even if they don't fully understand what the fuck is going on here with this shitshow on all sides, they see people shitting on 'gamers' and they have had it up to here - since before it was just media shit that was like small jabs at those mom's basement WoW playing neckbeards - and now they're seeing people shit on their subculture in realtime on twitter and on blogs and in news sites.

That's really what hit home for me. It's one thing to be ridiculed/thought less of/teased by outsiders because you identified yourself (or were identified as) a gamer. I caught a bit of crap from family, too. Being a gamer was considered lame or bad for a long time. I never hid it, but I largely kept to myself-- or with small groups of friends-- for years because it wasn't "cool" to be a gamer. It was for kids. It was for nerds. It was for people who weren't me, but there I was.

Then I thought we made progress as games got more popular and started hitting the mainstream. Playing video games wasn't just a nerdy thing to do anymore; lots of people did it. As the industry really took off in the 2000s, being a gamer was a good thing. It was pretty cool to watch, from my perspective.

It began to regress in 2012 as members of gaming press started in with the generalizations. "Entitled babies". "Gross." Now the negatives were being cast not by outsiders, but by the very same people that I relied on to get gaming info from. It's continued on and off since, and Ms. Alexander's piece admittedly struck a nerve with me.

And then her colleagues circled the wagons. And then battle lines were drawn, many of which I didn't see as relating to why I was personally upset. I managed my personal displeasure by unfollowing a mass of gaming press personalities and websites on social media.

And then came the conspiracy theories, the bile, the constant oneupsmanship.

Now? Now it's just a binary mess. With us or against us. Alexander's piece-- despite its apparent intention-- was the powder keg that exploded, and now the fire is out of control.

 

[Fliesen]

Well no, but a community doesn't have to be objectively having a super hard time in order to feel oppressed and put-upon by society at large. In the US a lot of Christians feel that there's a society-wide conspiracy to marginalize and ostracize them, which is why they get so worked up about stupid bullshit like the "War on Christmas." Gamers are certainly more oppressed than Christians are, even if they're not objectively very oppressed by the standards of, say, African-Americans or homosexuals or women in the games industry. Of course, there is always a group more oppressed than yours, which is why I don't think it's really very productive to tell people they have no right to feel oppressed just because there are more oppressed people in the world.

point taken, it's not opression olympics, you're right.

but still, there's postings like:

What you have described is so perfect, it is hard to find a better analogy.
For lack of a better comparison:
Attack on Gamers = Attack on Religion

Your belief in the joys that gaming brings is under attack.
Your belief in the joys that religion brings is under attack.

i don't think these are even remotely compareable.

 

[Jobbs]

They're anti-SJW and largely anti-feminist. Not anti-equality. Sadly real-life feminism has very little in common with internet feminism. (and of course, there are hardly any SJWs to comment on in real life, though the ones that do exist are great examples of SJWs in general)

what? I'm having a hard time following some of this. Anti feminist but not anti equality? Feminism means equality.

And can we please have some kind of moratorium on using the term "SJW"?

 

[ZeroGravity]

First of all, to boogie if he reads this, thank you for being one of the few (who actually has a voice) to not be afraid to speak on this issue. One of the biggest problems with this whole controversy has been the unwillingness (in in some cases, inability) to weigh in for fear for the bullying and mobbing that typically ensues.

This is not a new issue. It may have become inflamed in recent weeks, but it has been bubbling under the surface for years now, and there was finally a big enough spark to set things off. Between the complete lack of ethical standards and downright shoddy reporting of so-called "gaming journalisms", to the outright contempt of the gaming audience by those in the industry, people have had enough. You can try to paint the GamerGate issue with whatever façade you want to believe, but this is the underlying point of this entire thing. Gamers are fed up with being treated like shit.

I think the most shameful part of it is that a lot of the people doing the finger-pointing, the name-calling, and the bullying are coming from the side that not only understands how it feels to have that done against them, but base a large portion of their identity around that. It's hypocritical behaviour like that which has ended up prompting a lot of the reactions since this whole thing started.

I'm not normally the kind of person who even gets worked up over this sort of issue (or much of anything, really), but everyone has their breaking point, and I can completely empathize with how boogie feels. I'm not a bigot, a misogynist, a racist, a homophobe, a neckbeard, a loser, or even an asshole, and I'm tired of being portrayed as such. My opinions are not invalidated because of facets of who I am that I have absolutely no control over. And I'm do not deserve to be silenced or painted as a terrible human being because I have the audacity to offer even the slightest negative criticism to a person or persons who represent extremist views of a lot of what is wrong with the gaming industry and gaming culture as this moment.

Believe me, I really wish this didn't have to be an issue. I'd love to be able to discuss video games again without someone interjecting every five minutes that something I like is sexist, and I'd love to read ACTUAL QUALITY JOURNALISM and not shitty clickbait opinion pieces about how gamers are just the worst people alive. But I'm glad this has come to light and has not blown over quickly like it has been in the past, even in spite of people and places attempting to suppress discussion or divert attention away from the issue. It has already resulted in some small changes, which is more than we would have ever gotten without these so called sexist and misogynistic gamers wanting to talk about this. Hopefully it continues to lead to more.

While I'm sure plenty of people (especially here) will continue to try and paint this issue as the exact opposite of what boogie is trying to convey here, the reality is that it's moved so far beyond what initially brought about this whole thing in the first place. This isn't, nor has it ever been, about white male gamers wanting to protect their "boys-only club"; this isn't about picking on or slut-shaming female developers; and this isn't about a small minority of hateful people on either side attempting to control this discussion. This is about normal, everyday people who love video games and are sick and tired of business as usual in this industry. Glad to see that boogie is one of them.

 

[ExVicis]

Attack on Gamers = Attack on Religion

Your belief in the joys that gaming brings is under attack.
Your belief in the joys that religion brings is under attack.

What? You're telling me a person faith is now on the same level as a person chosen form of entertainment? I may not be a religious person but I'm pretty sure they're no where close. I don't think someone's love of a videogame is comparable in any way to someone's belief in how the universe was formed and the overarching rules of this universe they believe in.

I sincerely hope this post was a jest.

 

[JMargaris]

What bugged me with not all men is that someone deliberately linked me to something claiming just that--all men were rapists, necrophiliacs, and killers obsessed with destroying women. So when I responded, of course I got lumped in with a bunch of people I totally agree with.

Appealing to "so just #notallmen then?" is a terrible argument. It can be said to any group.

1. Attack them
2. They defend themselves
3. Say "so, #just notallyourgroup"?

It's kind of like the old "the fact that you're denying it so fiercely means it must be true." Uh...maybe. Or maybe it's not true at all.

"Surfers are the worst. Lazy pieces of shit."
"Uh...not really. I'm not lazy."
"Oh, so #notallsurfers?"

It's an argument that always works - it's tautological.

 

[Fliesen]

Then I thought we made progress as games got more popular and started hitting the mainstream. Playing video games wasn't just a nerdy thing to do anymore; lots of people did it. As the industry really took off in the 2000s, being a gamer was a good thing. It was pretty cool to watch, from my perspective.

It began to regress in 2012 as members of gaming press started in with the generalizations. "Entitled babies". "Gross." Now the negatives were being cast not by outsiders, but by the very same people that I relied on to get gaming info from. It's continued on and off since, and Ms. Alexander's piece admittedly struck a nerve with me. .

see, in one thread we're hoping "e-sports" will eventually be considered "sports" while in the other we don't want the gaming community to be scrutinized for the very same reasons the sports community has been and is still being scrutinized. we want to have the cake and eat it too.
have gaming be a socially respected activity of spending your free time or earning money from, yet don't be held to the same "standards" as other industries because "let's have gaming just be about games".

It's kind of like the old "the fact that you're denying it so fiercely means it must be true." Uh...maybe. Or maybe it's not true at all.

"Surfers are the worst. Lazy pieces of shit."
"Uh...not really. I'm not lazy."
"Oh, so #notallsurfers?"

It's an argument that always works - it's tautological.

yeah, but the surfer doesn't get a hashtag trending and a petition up and running because he felt his community as a whole was being wrongfully stereotyped, does he?

Spoiler

he's much too lazy to do that, anways

 

[charlequin]

Again, I am still trying to check and double check things for research

Okay, given that it would take maybe ten minutes tops to do the research necessary to establish that one of the Internet Aristocrat's core theses (that Quinn received favorable coverage from specific writers in exchange for sex) is false, maybe you're not doing a very good job of it?

 

[JesseEwiak]

First of all, to boogie if he reads this, thank you for being one of the few (who actually has a voice) to not be afraid to speak on this issue. One of the biggest problems with this whole controversy has been the unwillingness (in in some cases, inability) to weigh in for fear for the bullying and mobbing that typically ensues.

This is not a new issue. It may have become inflamed in recent weeks, but it has been bubbling under the surface for years now, and there was finally a big enough spark to set things off. Between the complete lack of ethical standards and downright shoddy reporting of so-called "gaming journalisms", to the outright contempt of the gaming audience by those in the industry, people have had enough. You can try to paint the GamerGate issue with whatever façade you want to believe, but this is the underlying point of this entire thing. Gamers are fed up with being treated like shit.

I think the most shameful part of it is that a lot of the people doing the finger-pointing, the name-calling, and the bullying are coming from the side that not only understands how it feels to have that done against them, but base a large portion of their identity around that. It's hypocritical behaviour like that which has ended up prompting a lot of the reactions since this whole thing started.

I'm not normally the kind of person who even gets worked up over this sort of issue (or much of anything, really), but everyone has their breaking point, and I can completely empathize with how boogie feels. I'm not a bigot, a misogynist, a racist, a homophobe, a neckbeard, a loser, or even an asshole, and I'm tired of being portrayed as such. My opinions are not invalidated because of facets of who I am that I have absolutely no control over. And I'm do not deserved to be silenced or painted as a terrible human being because I have the audacity to offer even the slightest negative criticism to a person or persons who represent extremist views of a lot of what is wrong with the gaming industry and gaming culture as this moment.

Believe me, I really wish this didn't have to be an issue. I'd love to be able to discuss video games again without someone interjecting every five minutes that something I like is sexist, and I'd love to read ACTUAL QUALITY JOURNALISM and not shitty clickbait opinion pieces about how gamers are just the worst people alive. But I'm glad this has come to light and has not blown over quickly like it has been in the past, even in spite of people and places attempting to suppress discussion or divert attention away from the issue. It has already resulted in some small changes, which is more than we would have ever gotten without these so called sexist and misogynistic gamers wanting to talk about this. Hopefully it continues to lead to more.

While I'm sure plenty of people (especially here) will continue to try and paint this issue as the exact opposite of what boogie is trying to convey here, the reality is that it's moved so far beyond what initially brought about this whole thing in the first place. This isn't, nor has it ever been, about white male gamers wanting to protect their "boys-only club"; this isn't about picking on or slut-shaming female developers; and this isn't about a small minority of hateful people on either side attempting to control this discussion. This is about normal, everyday people who love video games and are sick and tired of business as usual in this industry. Glad to see that boogie is one of them.

Then maybe non-sexist assholes interested in the ethics of the games press shouldn't use a hashtag that was created by sexist assholes on 4chan in the first place, as shown in this very thread.

 

[GutZ31]

point taken, it's not opression olympics, you're right.

but still, there's postings like:


i don't think these are even remotely compareable.

Please describe a better analogy.
Doesn't even have to be very good.
I just can't think of anything, and it really is unfounded to be grouped with rapest/murderers(Terrorists) when all I am is a gamer(good religious person).

What? You're telling me a person faith is now on the same level as a person chosen form of entertainment? I may not be a religious person but I'm pretty sure they're no where close. I don't think someone's love of a videogame is comparable in any way to someone's belief in how the universe was formed and the overarching rules of this universe they believe in.

I sincerely hope this post was a jest.

NOTHING can compare to religious persecution.
Unfortunately, I can't find anything else to relate to...
So please give me something better

 

[UrbanRats]

The more i read about this, the less i understand what the hell is going on.

There's a lot of screaming, and is even hard to understand what people are trying to get out of all this.
Is this still about that Zoe Quinn conspiracy crap?

Last thing i remember was, we were discussing ways to improve inclusiveness in gaming, things were pretty heated up already, but now it seems to have gotten to the point where it's even hard to understand what people are screaming about.

 

[Kemal86]

They're anti-SJW and largely anti-feminist. Not anti-equality. Sadly real-life feminism has very little in common with internet feminism. (and of course, there are hardly any SJWs to comment on in real life, though the ones that do exist are great examples of SJWs in general)

I don't think you know the meaning of a lot of the words you are using in this post. (Or the people you are referring to don't)

 

[ExVicis]

Then maybe non-sexist assholes interested in the ethics of the games press shouldn't use a hashtag that was created by sexist assholes on 4chan in the first place, as shown in this very thread.

Well, kinda like I had said before, do you really have it in you to get worked up over everything 4chan has ever said, done or supported? Because I don't think anyone here has that kinda time, energy or motivation.

The more i read about this, the less i understand what the hell is going on.

A lot of people are mad at a lot of people for reasons that are unclear to a lot of observers and as well to a lot of the people mad I think, some are being dicks about it and should stop and others at least think they're doing the right think by being mad. That's more or less the mess paraphrased without going into detail.

 

[Fliesen]

Please describe a better analogy.
Doesn't even have to be very good.
I just can't think of anything, and it really is unfounded to be grouped with rapest/murderers(Terrorists) when all I am is a gamer(good religious person).


NOTHING can compare to religious persecution.
Unfortunately, I can't find anything else to relate to...
So please give me something better

who is grouping you with rapists and murderers?

 

[joshcryer]

I'm not one for identity politics and whatnot so this has been the most uninteresting bit of "news coverage" I've seen on GAF in awhile. It's so tiring, basically manufactured BS. I don't even click on the threads that mention it. Until now, because I like boogie and saw his video.

I think EventStatus on YouTube reflects my view on this more than anything (though, again, I wouldn't "identify" as a gamer though I play through games to completion and can even be OCD about it). His main point about the situation is that it's basically manufactured for clickbait. He falls short of realizing that in a week or three this will blow over and no one will remember it so his calls for a boycott are unfortunately not going to work. The solution is alternatives, not boycotting entrenched media.

Disclaimer: he calls out boogie for his vile stereotyping and there may be a big thread where his video is linked, I don't pay that much attention, don't click on this stuff at all. I'm not posting his YouTube link to trash boogie because I think boogie is a good guy and just partially influenced by the media at large, and don't slight boogie for that. Otherwise I do say that I agree with EventStatus' view of this. He nails it.

 

[Mushroomer25]

what? I'm having a hard time following some of this. Anti feminist but not anti equality? Feminism means equality.

And can we please have some kind of moratorium on using the term "SJW"?

The problem is that all of this debate ultimately boils down to conjecture. The word "feminism" is used to describe everything from rational quality to more extreme anti-patriarchal concepts. Same thing with the word "Gamer" - some people are using it as a definition of the most hardcore audience, others claim it applies to everyone.

 

[Sayad]

these kinds of #notAllGamers arguments (and a petition?! wtf!) totally derail the original discussion.

of course not ALL Russians are basically invading Ukraine, not ALL people from Israel and Gaza have issues with one another and not ALL voters of European right wing parties actually carry fascist / neo-nazi ideas.

... duh. that's kind of contributing nothing to the original issue.

I don't see how these examples support your argument? If you call voters for European right wing parties neo-nazi, and if you use the words Muslims or Jews to imply terrorists or cowards in the real world it's not acceptable, you don't get to say "well, obviously I don't mean all Muslims/Jews, that's not the issue here".

If you really don't want this distracting from the real issue then come up with a term that doesn't generalize a huge group of people.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

It's pretty worrying that a normally reasonable guy like Boogie has gotten caught up in this whole thing.

Whatever her motives were, I feel like Leigh's piece did more harm than good by drawing people like him into the proverbial fray. Clearly, there are lots of bad actors that would have continued the abuse no matter what but that article seemed to put a lot of people on the defensive that might have ignored the whole thing.

 

[KHlover]

Cis and straight refer to different things. Cis, or cisgender refers to gender identity while straight refers to sexuality.

Nah, it's people who identify as the gender they were given at birth. I'm born male, identify as male and have always been assigned a male gender. So I'm cis. I'm also bisexual - still cis.

Huh. Back to lingo class for me. The only times I've seen this word so far it was used synonymously with "straight" and usually followed with "white" and then a derogative term of your choosing :/

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

point taken, it's not opression olympics, you're right.

but still, there's postings like:


i don't think these are even remotely compareable.

I think they're quite comparable. All identities are fundamentally the same - it's the same process of identity-formation that happens regardless of whether you're talking about tribe, clan, sports team, political leanings, race, religion, subculture, etc. What matters is how strong any given individual's attachment to the identity is, rather than the sort of identity it is (of course identities are reinforced to different degrees by society, which is why you have so many people who think that religion is just naturally a more valid identity for someone to feel attached to than gaming). For a lot of the people who self-identify as gamers it's a much more important part of their identity than religion - hell, it's a much more important part of their identity than religion is to a lot of people who claim to be religious. There's nothing special about religion that makes it inherently more important to people than any other sort of cultural affiliation. Indeed, as our societies become more and more secularized people are finding and clinging to "secular religions" in order to form their identities and give structure to their lives (see: vegans).

 

[HUELEN10]

Ok, but what do those things actually mean? From the way I've generally seen them used (as far as "get the [x] out of my gaming!"), they mostly seem to mean "stop asking for better representation for women, gays, and minorities." Or "make Anita Sarkeesian stop saying my favorite game is sexist." Or even "stop making non-games like Gone Homo, eww."

I can't speak for an entire group of people, but I think some of the people on /v/ who say they want games and a gaming industry without drama or special interest or corruption or things like that mean the following.

• No reviews from sites small, or megablogs large that have a writer for the site writing a review or an article about something like a game their spouse made, especially if it links directly to buying it.
  
• No drama about looking at one social issue and ignoring another, but either giving, for lack of better terms "both sides" equal limelight or just ignoring anything that doesn't have to do with video games.
  
• No making fundraisers for a cause linked to personal accounts.
  
• If someone is the only one available to write about a project, and writing could cause a conflict of interest, they should publicly and transparently say that they have some connection to what they are writing, and it should be there as it is published, not amended a year later.

I think that this is the stuff that part of that community is fighting for, or at least wants. Again, I can't make any claims for the whole of any efforts, nor do I endorse the whole of Boogie, the Internet Aristocrat, or anyone else for that matter. I respect and applaud boogie for being civil and passionate, that is something that I find to be a positive, specially since he, at least in my eyes, didn't start mudslinging anyone. Anywho, I think that is what some of those things might mean to some people, but then again, who really knows?

Okay, given that it would take maybe ten minutes tops to do the research necessary to establish that one of the Internet Aristocrat's core theses (that Quinn received favorable coverage from specific writers in exchange for sex) is false, maybe you're not doing a very good job of it?

Respectfully, I want to say that as part of the points that I was looking at, the one you raised about Quinn isn't one I'm done researching. It's an important point perhaps, and one of the most popular ones, but it's also the densest, so I am not completely confident in claiming someone's view on that specific issue as correct or incorrect simply because I'm not sure of it myself. Again, I think a lot of us can say that there is a lot to go through, and though I have looked into this, perhaps too much time, I am not 100 percent in the know of every single point raised in every single video or article concerning these happenings. Again, I would like to state that I don't endorse this guy, but some of what he has stated has piqued my interested to go ahead and try to read up on things some more, for myself. Again, differing opinions and vids aren't necessarily a bad thing, so if there are any other vid series that could get one up to speed, or confirm stuff or discredit stuff that has been raised prior that some of us have missed, it would be great to see them.

 

[GutZ31]

who is grouping you with rapists and murderers?

Gamer hashtags.
I myself may not be directly singled out, but I am sure if I posted anything opposing in some of the tweeter feeds going on, I would surely be equated to such.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Seriously?

Its style is way too emotionally charged to give a proper objective view on what is going on. But again, that may be the intended point which would mean it is a biased article from the get go anyway.

If her goal was to show people on the "other" side the "wrongs" they are doing, it would fall on deaf ears. To me it was written for people who already support her rather than the misguided individuals who fully do not understand the issues facing the gaming industry when it comes to equality.

 

[ZeroGravity]

Then maybe non-sexist assholes interested in the ethics of the games press shouldn't use a hashtag that was created by sexist assholes on 4chan in the first place, as shown in this very thread.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Jobbs]

The problem is that all of this debate ultimately boils down to conjecture. The word "feminism" is used to describe everything from rational quality to more extreme anti-patriarchal concepts. Same thing with the word "Gamer" - some people are using it as a definition of the most hardcore audience, others claim it applies to everyone.

And this is what drives me crazy. One person says -- okay, there are some real jerks who play games, and I call these people "gamers". other people say "no, everyone who plays games is a gamer, not all gamers are jerks" -- we're not necessarily disagreeing on the substance or anything that matters, we're just arguing over the meaning of a word, and it's driving me crazy. Call them flillyflops for all I care. It's just a word. The substance of the matter is that there seem to be a disproportionate amount of dickheads playing games. No, not all of you. But too many.

 

[Superflat]

Appealing to "so just #notallmen then?" is a terrible argument. It can be said to any group.

.

It's an argument that always works - it's tautological.

I have to agree with this sentiment. The first page is littered with "oh so this is another #notallmen video" comments, as if that actually adds anything to the discussion. It's a bulletproof hashtag by design, and more or less created to silence people, even if they have legitimate concerns. As a result even more confusion arose, even from misunderstanding that hashtag altogether.

Also, the comments of "of course no one believes all men are rapists" is a generalization in of itself.

 

[joshcryer]

It's pretty worrying that a normally reasonable guy like Boogie has gotten caught up in this whole thing.

I think he just went with the flow of how things were, because that's all he really knows how to do, I mean, basically he didn't want to rock the boat. His latest video shows introspection on his behalf and he realized that honestly gamers are such a huge group that generalizing about them is unfair and ultimately hurtful.

 

[Averon]

So, what's the end game in all of this? I don't see #GamerGate ending anytime soon, especially not after their "victory" regarding Jen. #notyourshield seems to be going pretty strong, too.

Maybe Destiny will distract enough people from both side for heads to cool.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Thanks for proving my point.

Again, if all you're truly worried about is ethics in the games press, make up a new hashtag. Can't be that hard. Lots of letters and words out there. If people are truly worried about just the ethics and don't want to be sexist assholes, then all the good people just worried about the games press and aren't conspiratorial sexist assholes won't have a problem.

 

[skullmuffins]

Eron and Zoe agreed on the idea that if their partner were to cheat on them, and then had sex with them, it would be considered rape because they would not consent if they knew.

Then, well, y'know.

And I'm pretty sure that definition wouldn't hold up in court, nobody's pressing charges, and I don't think Eron even subscribes to that belief - he made a point in his blog to refer to it as her stance. Nobody reported on the "rape" because he wasn't raped in any meaningful sense.

 

[JMargaris]

these kinds of #notAllGamers arguments (and a petition?! wtf!) totally derail the original discussion.

What is the original discussion? Can anyone articulate what it is and where it started?

It seems to me that this particular discussion started with the L.A. piece. So this isn't a derail at all, it's a direct continuation of that discussion.

Either that or this is like a Hatfields and McCoys thing that has been going on for so long that the original point has been forgotten.

I don't think there's an original discussion worth having - vitriol is the entire basis for the discussion. If you peel back the vitriol there's no sweet center of logic buried underneath.

If her goal was to show people on the "other" side the "wrongs" they are doing, it would fall on deaf ears. To me it was written for people who already support her rather than the misguided individuals who fully do not understand the issues facing the gaming industry when it comes to equality.

It's classic red meat for the base. It's every Ann Coulter piece. The point is not to persuade or inform, the point is to rile up the base and receive their accolades.

 

[GutZ31]

And this is what drives me crazy. One person says -- okay, there are some real jerks who play games, and I call these people "gamers". other people say "no, everyone who plays games is a gamer, not all gamers are jerks" -- we're not necessarily disagreeing on the substance or anything that matters, we're just arguing over the meaning of a word, and it's driving me crazy. Call them flillyflops for all I care. It's just a word. The substance of the matter is that there seem to be a disproportionate amount of dickheads playing games. No, not all of you. But too many.

The main problem is that its being used to stifle conversation, even when a logical rebuttal is used, some how one side or the other will use a word to describe ALL of one side, and it just resets everything.
We get the mud slinging all over again because people can't stay on topic without getting emotional, or closing the discussion before it has time to go anywhere.

 

[bonercop]

People with disabilities, particularly people with very specific mental or neurological disorders, are pretty much following the standard rights activism path, but lagging behind by a few decades. For example, "homosexuality" used to be viewed as a disease that could be cured by religion. Obviously those days are mostly behind us by now, but disorders like autism, Asperger's Syndrome, and PDD-NOS are still being viewed as diseases that need cures, even as many, many (though admittedly not all) people with these disorders say that they would never want such a "cure".

This "lagging behind" in rights activism means that many people, even those who want diversity, overlook this particular significant portion of the video game-playing population, so I really appreciate that Boogie called out to the disabled gamer population while so many other inclusion activists overlook them.

I can't say I have ever met anyone who was glad to be born with their disability and as someone with a developmental disorder(ADHD), I absolutely do view it as a disease that I would gladly see "cured" if possible. Just my two cents.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Threatening a woman's life over a youtube video makes you a misogynist psychopath who just so happens to like playing games. Labeling that group as "gamers" when we have a perfectly good label like "misogynist psychopath" just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[libregkd]

And this is what drives me crazy. One person says -- okay, there are some real jerks who play games, and I call these people "gamers". other people say "no, everyone who plays games is a gamer, not all gamers are jerks" -- we're not necessarily disagreeing on the substance or anything that matters, we're just arguing over the meaning of a word, and it's driving me crazy. Call them flillyflops for all I care. It's just a word. The substance of the matter is that there seem to be a disproportionate amount of dickheads playing games. No, not all of you. But too many.

This is exactly why I think the word "gamer" should be disposed of. It's a useless label that serves no purpose other than to group people into certain groups. And it's even more useless in situations like this where people don't even agree on what the damn label means. I mean hell even within 'gaming culture' there are people who are making other labels like 'casual' and 'hardcore' gamers and arguing who is who. It's just stupid and doesn't really do anything besides trying to make people feel like they belong to a group of like-minded people while excluding others.

 

[Aeana]

While I'm sure plenty of people (especially here) will continue to try and paint this issue as the exact opposite of what boogie is trying to convey here, the reality is that it's moved so far beyond what initially brought about this whole thing in the first place. This isn't, nor has it ever been, about white male gamers wanting to protect their "boys-only club"; this isn't about picking on or slut-shaming female developers; and this isn't about a small minority of hateful people on either side attempting to control this discussion. This is about normal, everyday people who love video games and are sick and tired of business as usual in this industry. Glad to see that boogie is one of them.

The problem is that the reason why this is such a big issue right now is specifically to distract people from the issues you say that this "isn't about." They want so very hard for people to not be talking about those things, so they've riled people up about corruption in games journalism, with the cornerstone being an allegation that wasn't even true to begin with (that Zoe Quinn slept with someone for a good review on her game).

I totally understand being upset with certain things in the industry, but the timing here is orchestrated as a distraction from stuff that was already going on, and now we have two groups at each others' throats when I'm sure plenty would actually see eye-to-eye if they'd stop and think about it for a bit.