Thats exactly what happened. What are you on?
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Boogie2988: I Am NOT A Bigot. Are You?
- Thread starter HUELEN10
- Start date
Thats exactly what happened. What are you on?
Objectively Bad Opinion
Member
Alright, I'll concede that point.
That doesn't explain how that image is relevant though, since the guy isn't part of the discussion, didn't use the hashtag, and harrassed someone who is only tangentially (IF that) related to the discussion.
Framing the guy as a gamer typical (or even atypical) of the gamergate group seems disingenuous at best.
plagiarize
Banned
Koji, you aren't being unreasonable with your points. I'm not trying to paint anyone in this thread as being bigoted or unreasonable (and trust me, if you saw the thread about Anita's death threats, you'd know exactly what it looks like when I am talking to people I think are bigots).
However the whole 'notallmen' thing, or 'notallgamers' I think just makes us look bad too.
No, we aren't all bigots, but why do gamers appear to have more bigots in this community than I see in the other communities online I spend a good deal of time in?
I can see two valid answers to that, maybe there are others. The answers to that that I can see are these:
1. We genuinely have more bigots.
2. We have a normal number of bigots, but the bigots we have feel more comfortable in being openly bigoted than bigots elsewhere do.
Either way I think it means that gaming is overall a more comfortable place for a bigot. That isn't to say we are 'accepting' of them or anything like that, but that due to the 'boys own' appearance that big budget games have, and due to the largely male environment of places like NeoGAF, bigots feel like this is a mans place for men where they can talk openly about their negative feelings towards women.
It's a gentlemens club. It's a no women golf club. Sexists feel free to be openly sexist as a result.
We can all do something about that. Ignoring it, is harmful. Circling the wagons when we get outside criticism, is harmful (remember when the Catholic church was doing more to remind us that not all their priests were pedophiles than they were trying to track down the pedophiles and how that looked?). If you see a gamer being a shitbag online. Criticise them. Report them.
Let them know it's not okay. Let other people who share their feelings understand that they should keep them to themselves... and things will start getting better.
All this anger from 'my side' of this issue is a good thing. You shouldn't want to be seen as a bigot. You shouldn't feel comfortable being openly bigoted.
Way too many bigots don't seem to care in this community and they have given us all a bad name.
If you want to get upset that a minority of hugely unsavory people within a group can give it a bad name... I guess you can be... but I don't see what you can actively do about that, because telling the people who have been given that wrong impression that they are wrong isn't going to do squat.
*Showing them* that they are wrong, by actively trying to address the issue though? That's not only going to work better in convincing people that gamers aren't all bigots, but it's going to make things better for female members of this community too.
However the whole 'notallmen' thing, or 'notallgamers' I think just makes us look bad too.
No, we aren't all bigots, but why do gamers appear to have more bigots in this community than I see in the other communities online I spend a good deal of time in?
I can see two valid answers to that, maybe there are others. The answers to that that I can see are these:
1. We genuinely have more bigots.
2. We have a normal number of bigots, but the bigots we have feel more comfortable in being openly bigoted than bigots elsewhere do.
Either way I think it means that gaming is overall a more comfortable place for a bigot. That isn't to say we are 'accepting' of them or anything like that, but that due to the 'boys own' appearance that big budget games have, and due to the largely male environment of places like NeoGAF, bigots feel like this is a mans place for men where they can talk openly about their negative feelings towards women.
It's a gentlemens club. It's a no women golf club. Sexists feel free to be openly sexist as a result.
We can all do something about that. Ignoring it, is harmful. Circling the wagons when we get outside criticism, is harmful (remember when the Catholic church was doing more to remind us that not all their priests were pedophiles than they were trying to track down the pedophiles and how that looked?). If you see a gamer being a shitbag online. Criticise them. Report them.
Let them know it's not okay. Let other people who share their feelings understand that they should keep them to themselves... and things will start getting better.
All this anger from 'my side' of this issue is a good thing. You shouldn't want to be seen as a bigot. You shouldn't feel comfortable being openly bigoted.
Way too many bigots don't seem to care in this community and they have given us all a bad name.
If you want to get upset that a minority of hugely unsavory people within a group can give it a bad name... I guess you can be... but I don't see what you can actively do about that, because telling the people who have been given that wrong impression that they are wrong isn't going to do squat.
*Showing them* that they are wrong, by actively trying to address the issue though? That's not only going to work better in convincing people that gamers aren't all bigots, but it's going to make things better for female members of this community too.
redwolflim
Neo Member
Christina Hoff Sommers is a real feminist and she is sided with the gamer at the moment. She has quite good influence and I would say she could be our leader
https://twitter.com/CHSommers
Are the other feminists not real?
it's depressing
Novel Mike
Member
And that is exactly what the "SJW" people are arguing for. For stakeholders to speak up! Yet they are met with a huge wall of denial, while concurrently being targets of harassment and bullying to the point of harm.
And instead of actually targeting the assholes, people are piling on the ones speaking up about doing something against the assholes.
And there's your misunderstanding! No one is labelling "an entire group as bad". The articles centering around the death of the gamer is targeting the gamers who contribute to misogynistic and self-centered and selfishly ignorant worldviews, not everyone who just happen to play video games.
blitzcloud
Banned
i suppose that would have to be checked with the actual meaning of feminism, or the globally accepted meaning of feminism.
Saying you're one thing might not be necessarily the truth.
You're kidding, right?
FF Seraphim
Member
Whoever thought such a hashtag was a good idea is a complete and utter fool. Be it a joke or not.
This is how you feed the other side to give misinformation and make others not want to be associated to your cause despite them agreeing with you.
Rather than isolating myself, I just make it an important aspect of who I am. I do not like the sweeping generalizations still.
Also, the attempt to paint certain people as 'leaders' is a joke. It started long before they even got involved.
I know it's easier to paint the whole movement as a misogynistic monster that only conveniently cares about other things, but it falls flat on it's face when looking at how many different people from different backgrounds and for different reasons have supported it
plagiarize
Banned
Please define the two sides as you perceive them to be. Outline what you think their goals are. I'd love to know, because I can't for the life of me figure out what the two sides are when people start banging on about 'both sides'.
DoktorEvil
Banned
This might sound crazy, but I don't really think that's for me to judge. And even if I did, harassment isn't called for just become some random person violated my own personal morals. Anyone who honestly believes otherwise must keep pretty busy.
If you're reading it as labeling an entire group as bad, you are sitting there waiting with a touchpaper ready to be lit.
How can a great many of us here, all gamers, read articles which have spawned this entire thing and think "ah yes, that doesn't apply to me?"
Because we know the profile who it does apply to, understand it and realise that we do not belong to it.
How can a great many of us here, all gamers, read articles which have spawned this entire thing and think "ah yes, that doesn't apply to me?"
Because we know the profile who it does apply to, understand it and realise that we do not belong to it.
Holy shit, all this for indie devs and it's been more than 10 years that journalists are flown all over the world to play the latests GTAs/ACs/Latest AAA Industry game with big marketing.
I guess that indie dev should have paid that journalist a hotel room to play her game and offered goodies and favors like the big industry does.
It's so hilarious to see this huge uproar on such a small issue.
It's literally suing into oblivion a city counselor of Toronto for having smoked a cigarette inside a building while letting that Ford dude alone.
I guess that indie dev should have paid that journalist a hotel room to play her game and offered goodies and favors like the big industry does.
It's so hilarious to see this huge uproar on such a small issue.
It's literally suing into oblivion a city counselor of Toronto for having smoked a cigarette inside a building while letting that Ford dude alone.
plutoknight
Member
Her Twitter feed reads like the front page of Jezebel.
So, we should just not fight the symbolic murder of something that identifies so much of what we do and are as human beings? That's a terrible idea. Regardless if we are part of the problem or the solution, you can't just let something like this fly, no matter who is involved.
I think people that have too much time on their hands participate in this social media stupidity. Video games are supposed to be a bastion of peace and entertainment, not a battleground for discussion of sociopolitical issues present in our world. I see everything as simply stirring up drama in needless places.
I'm kind of concerned at how common it seems hashtags have become for not just encapsulating an entire debate for some parties, but in some cases it seems hashtags have actually supplanted debate itself.
I thought I was somewhat informed about the games industry on a functional basis. I've discovered this week that I now no longer have any idea about how and where the hot topic issues are even being discussed or argued about.
In principle this should be a good thing because it's a sign the medium is becoming more detatched from historical locii, but instead it seems like a hotbed of hostility, harassment and irrationality.
What I'm saying is not meant as a criticism about people debating with sincerity here and elsewhere. I am certain there are important debates worth having and happening. But I dont see that filtering through as a whole and it makes me feel irredeemably disconnected from this whole business.
Games should just be something anyone can enjoy and discuss and participate in. They should foster better aspects of human nature. Instead it seems the worst is on display. And I honestly cant understand why.
I thought I was somewhat informed about the games industry on a functional basis. I've discovered this week that I now no longer have any idea about how and where the hot topic issues are even being discussed or argued about.
In principle this should be a good thing because it's a sign the medium is becoming more detatched from historical locii, but instead it seems like a hotbed of hostility, harassment and irrationality.
What I'm saying is not meant as a criticism about people debating with sincerity here and elsewhere. I am certain there are important debates worth having and happening. But I dont see that filtering through as a whole and it makes me feel irredeemably disconnected from this whole business.
Games should just be something anyone can enjoy and discuss and participate in. They should foster better aspects of human nature. Instead it seems the worst is on display. And I honestly cant understand why.
KojiKnight
Member
I think our viewpoints actually line up pretty much exactly. I may not be conferring that point as well as I'd like and I think part of the problem is I'm intentionally not quoting anyone directly when I'm making my statements, even though I'm trying to address certain ones in particular.
I'm not quoting anyone specifically, because that leads to people feeling they are being directly attacked (which, like you, I'm trying not to do as it causes people to be defensive and it becomes less of discussing the issue and more about personal defense).
Yes, definitely gamers HAVE to act against those that are acting out of line. If they can't be reasoned with, then they need to be removed from the groups and games, because leaving them there only gives everyone a bad name and allows it to spread (how many 10 year olds have you played games with start spouting these kinds of racist/sexist remarks? They are mostly just regurgitating what they hear).
My only point is it's not helpful to insult 'gamers' as a means to motivate them to make change. It's not helpful to paint a picture that if someone self identifies with a group that they can (or just plain are) the enemy. Both sides should be working together to improve the communities. Vitriol doesn't benefit anyone in this discussion.
Someone dinged me on this earlier for saying "no one is disagreeing that what the assholes are doing is wrong." So now I'll ding you as well
Yes, there ARE people making this stand that 'gamers' are bad. I think we too are on the same page but rather are getting hung up on little things
plagiarize
Banned
Pretty much. When I see people 'celebrating people for standing with gamers on this issue' with the #gamergate hashtag and all that nonsense, clearly they aren't standing with me, so are they saying I'm not really a gamer? Should I get upset at them for characterizing me with a group I strongly disagree with?
Nope. I know who they are talking about.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
So, why is one worse than the other?
hooijdonk17
Member
If she paid the reviewers in money would you be morally OK with passing judgement? Does having the right kind of genitals or sexuality exempt one from law? I understand your hesitation but I don't agree with it, at all.
redwolflim
Neo Member
AlimNassor
Banned
I agree, but, Quinn was not a prominent woman in the industry. I never even heard of her or her game till this whole mess started.
I'm sure there are minorities on the site but wasn't why I mentioned that phrase. 'Classical minorities' were not my words but were in the messaging instructions in the image.
lmao
plutoknight
Member
Fair enough; does she have any articles/blogs/etc. about this issue, per chance? (I didn't see any on her feed, but I didn't make it past the 'BITCH MEDIA' post. I'd just love to read it and maybe drive my feminist friends crazy on FB with it)
I see she retweeted a ton of other tweets in seeming support of us level-headed gamers, too. So she's like Jezebel if Jezebel actually cared about the heart of feminism and not just the showmanship of it?
Novel Mike
Member
I have no idea what the end goal of either is at this point but the 2 groups were defined in the post you originally quoted. On one side gamersgate the people who have a problem with corruption within games journalism and then on the other those who have said that the term 'gamer' is dead or at least vile in nature now to them as it means those who abuse and harass those who don't agree with them. The problem with the latter is that it generalizes everyone within gaming as being the same thing, the problem with the former is that it is made up of many of the people who are the cause of the abuse and harassment (or at least okay with it being done) that has lead to this being taken completely out of control. They hide within gamersgate sounding like well meaning individuals against the corruption but really hide their own misogynistic agenda.
There's more to it then that and again there are shitty people doing shitty things on both sides (more so on the gamersgate side currently) with no clear resolution even being available. As I said in a previous post, these people are talking AT each other, not to each other. It's not possible to have anyone 'win' in such circumstances which is why it has boiled over and is now out of control.
Protip: calling your misogyny 'feminism' doesn't actually make it so. Although I guess she has made an entire career off this bullshit so what do I know
She's very prominent in the indie development scene. Especially so if you're entrenched in the social justice conversation.
The fact that you've never heard of her or her game is more a statement about your apathy towards an entire section of gaming than her notoriety.
silvermember
Banned
Yes because threatening to kill someone isn't an attempt at terrorizing a person, right?
If you want to be intentionally obtuse that's fine, but don't expect a lot of rational people to be.
plagiarize
Banned
I'm not too worried about being seen as taking the moral high ground.
I will, and have, thrown vitriol at people over this issue where I believed it appropriate. I've seen nothing in this thread worthy of it... but I know few other ways of demonstrating to people that functional bigotry (whether the person thinks they are a bigot or not) is not something I will personally tolerate.
What some people on GAF were saying in the death threats thread... What they thought they could get away with saying. What they thought didn't deserve vitriol... well... some of it did.
But I don't think someone saying 'Why are gamers so sexist?' deserves vitriol. And I don't think someone saying 'Hey, wait a second, we aren't all sexist' deserve it either.
Obviously I think the second of those two kinds of people deserve debating, and advising about how their actions resonate... but yeah. Vitriol remains firmly on the table for me for anyone who thinks they can be openly sexist (even if they don't think they are sexist).
ab.aeterno
Member
Are you suggesting she paid reviewers in sexual favors?
Yeah, basically. The community I'm in for my biggest hobby and passion should be a safe place to escape harassment I otherwise face, not harbor more of it.
plutoknight
Member
I'd probably define 'real' feminism, in his case, as feminists who simply don't just take statements made by men, swap the genders, and call it a day. Those kinds of people aren't furthering the cause of feminism (creating equality for all), they're just taking arrows lobbed and them and firing them back and going FEMINISM!
That's not feminism, that's laziness. For what it's worth, Christina scolds feminists who are all about just relentlessly attacking men as much as she scolds men. There is something different about her from what most in modern culture would call a 'feminist' (Someone up above me called her a misogynist..I...I don't know. I'm really, really torn on that tweet. haha. I want someone else to bring better examples!)
Wait what? Genitals? Law?
I said this before, but conservatives don't do feminism really well. I find the fact that so many gamers are rallying to her side really illuminating.
DoktorEvil
Banned
Wait, what?
redwolflim
Neo Member
I remembered she tweeted that she would make a video about it soon, but I could be wrong.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Obviously. How else do you account for all these rave reviews from critics: http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/depression-quest
You think that one score of 50/100 was obtained on merit alone?
I already didn't like his Frankie schtick.
This #notallmen act isn't doing him any favors in my opinion.
He just sets up a straw man that doesn't exist and then attacks it and not super effectively. I don't think anyone has made the argument that anyone who plays games is bad person who should feel bad about playing games. In fact, the very people pointing out some of the issues with the industry are themselves gamers.
This #notallmen act isn't doing him any favors in my opinion.
He just sets up a straw man that doesn't exist and then attacks it and not super effectively. I don't think anyone has made the argument that anyone who plays games is bad person who should feel bad about playing games. In fact, the very people pointing out some of the issues with the industry are themselves gamers.
Objectively Bad Opinion
Member
She's totally super important and you're just a #typicalgamer.
I hadn't heard her name until she framed wizardchan.
I don't mean that as an insult, just an observation. If you follow indie game development then you've likely heard of Zoe Quinn. If haven't then you either don't follow that particular scene or are an extreme outlier.
KojiKnight
Member
Just so we're clear, I wasn't implying that you were using vitriol in this thread
I do disagree though that vitriol should be used at all, even with the people who truly are incredibly sexist or saying horrible things. If someone is doing that they are either super ignorant, or a super asshole. If the former, there is a chance at education and improvement that 'mean words' won't solve. If the latter, they have then succeeded in bringing you down to their level. You won't convince an asshole not to be an asshole. The only thing you can do with people like that is isolate them as best you can from public communities to keep it from spreading.
plutoknight
Member
Wrong author; fixing my mistake now.