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[EdibleKnife]

plenty has changed. several female writers and devs are getting out of the industry.

so good for #gamergate, i guess

This is the real sad part. By playing into the hands of the assholes who began their anti-equality crusade under the guise of a call for journalistic ethics, they get to continue to dictate who and who isn't welcome in the industry. We've spent more time arguing about the word gamer than we have actively trying to snuff out the reprehensible shit-slinging and misogyny that goes on within and in the periphery of the industry. If even half the people saying they aren't bigots would call out the people who actually are, not only would we not have to be dealing with this stuff but the industry and community would be a better place in general. If this continues the way it is going, I can't help but think that the same people in this fight will look around later and wonder to themselves where all the diversity went.

 

[SparkPeople]

No one *wants* to hear that their hobby is harmful, but if aspects of it are, we should all want to do something about that. And not that I think Anita is going to change a significant number of game consumer's minds with her videos, but nothing would convince people to stop making sexist games faster than bad sales for sexist games.

So targeting the game consumers makes a *lot* of sense.

But sexist games are often the highest selling, to members of the general public who are not aware of/don't care about Anita's analysis.

COD, Madden, Gears of War, etc aren't bought by 'gamers', they're bought by the general public. Impacting those sales means you need to get your message out to A) Everyone B) Game developers.

Attacking hardcore gamers is not gonna matter, since the only thing that will change are indie games with limited reach and advertising. To change female representation in games, EA, Ubisoft, etc need to get on board with this. They don't listen to their fans, they listen to their wallets. To impact either of those, the message has to be neat, concise, and direct with very little dissent.

I'm not saying she, individually, needs to reel in the feminist community, but her work is being hampered from within and by ignorant gamers.

 

[redwolflim]

Exactly. Anita is trying to create a dialogue for change, and, yeah, her videos can be inclusive sometimes, but if she sparks conversation about it, that's a success in her book, I'm sure. We need more Anita's in gaming, and ones that cover a wider range of opinions on that issue.

We definitely need women not only in game journalism, game industry and gaming culture. It is not only promote diversity but also creating healthy culture.

By the way, slightly off topic, looks like Anita trying to force neutral game developer to choose sides now https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/507403315450105856

 

[Sneds]

I don't know how one goes about "going after bigots", nor how to go about "targeting the people on both sides" of this. Not in this current environment. There's no possibility of real discussion with all this noise. There are quite clearly things that need to be talked about - eventually - but now? Everyone has their hackles up like a motherfucker and real people's lives are being affected. It's ridiculous.

I have plenty of actual, genuine issues I think deserve to be discussed, but I think at some point we all need to take some responsibility for not knowing when it's time to stop trying to "win". I'm absolutely guilty of it myself.

I realize it's a little ridiculous to essentially shout "Everybody stop caring about things, right now!" But fuck, I really think it's time we all just lay down the goddamn swords. No parting shots, no "lessons learned" (not yet, at least)... let's just play Destiny or some shit. I dunno.

I've seen and had a few decent conversations on twitter amid the noise with people who support #GamerGate even though I oppose it.

 

[staticneuron]

Are you aware one of your examples is from May 2013?

I am sorry that was the wrong link. But even the content of his article was different. He was talking about gamer as a marketing term. The others are talking about gamers as a negative label.

What is understandable is that I am reading alot of "I don't get this" and "is this all about a term?". I understand this because I didn't care nor looked into this stuff when it started. The brief synopsis I read about Zoe Quinn mad me not care.

After ignoring it and then actually seeing Liegh Alexanders articles and others I had to look to see what the deal was.

The issue started by Zoe Quinn situation was about nepotisim and how rampant it was in the gaming community. Links were found between many writers and devs, and many articles were retroactively updated to include the personal relations. So the Gamergate people are stating, this shouldn't happen at all. If there are either personal or financial ties to a project the jurno in question should not write about the product.

After this goes large and many names are found to be linked, this pushback starts about gamers and then the label begins. Now i don't care what someone calls me or my hobby but it does seem pretty disturbing to have developers in the industry and Jurno's in the industry try to paint broad strokes about gamers. Not every gamer is going to read it, but active and interested gamers that look for the news and may not have been even aware/or care about gamergate is sudden;y being labeled like this. The same active gamers that give these sites page views and purchases some of the developer games. I found that bold and a little bit insulting.

 

[plagiarize]

Go read some YouTube comments on music videos. Go read some of the Marvel vs. DC threads. Nolanites vs Micheal Bay fans. Open your eyes and you'll realise that it happens in every media. If you leave media and look at sports, it gets even worse but I bet you wouldn't see it that way when it comes to sports fans.

Youtube is a horrendous community. We all know that. But that isn't the equivalent of the gaming community. The film and TV forums I post on do not have the same kind of open sexism I saw right here on NeoGAF in the thread about Anita's death threats.

It is a problem beyond the gaming community, but that doesn't mean we, the gaming community, can't do something to try and clean up our own little patch of the internet... and judging by our patch being far from the cleanest... we can absolutely make it cleaner than it is.

Pointing out that we're far from the dirtiest patch just sounds like a defeatist excuse.

 

[SparkPeople]

We definitely need women not only in game journalism, game industry and gaming culture. It is not only promote diversity but also creating healthy culture.

By the way, slightly off topic, looks like Anita trying to force neutral game developer to choose sides now https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/507403315450105856

And this is what annoys me. The black and white approach.

I still don't know what Anita's definition of feminist is, nor what her final goals are. Both of those would help me decide if I can support her or not.

 

[spwolf]

Which other side are we talking about this time? I genuinely lose track.

I am a gamer, talking to gamers in a gaming community. I am suggesting that we as gamers would do more for our reputation by actively trying to stop bigotry, than we will do for it by telling people who have let the hateful minority sully our name, that we aren't all bigots.

I don't see how what you're saying contradicts or invalidates anything I have said. As gamers what can *we* do about the criticism we are receiving and about the bigotry that seems to be a bigger part of our community than it is most other online entertainment communities.

Do you really think that trying to shame people into activism is going to work? Gaming community cant solve these issues, they are not part of gaming society, they are part of the individual's culture and society.

And this movement of trying to shame people is just wrong.

If you think that gamers have more issues with gender equality than other "communities", you are way out of touch with reality.

Whole premise is completely wrong.

 

[Sneds]

We definitely need women not only in game journalism, game industry and gaming culture. It is not only promote diversity but also creating healthy culture.

By the way, slightly off topic, looks like Anita trying to force neutral game developer to choose sides now https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/507403315450105856

Expressing a view does not equate to 'trying to force'. Why do people always imply that Anita has nefarious aims?

 

[FF Seraphim]

Oh, don't get me wrong, it's DEFINITELY easier said than done and I've done my own fair share of useless raging but it just seems like such a profound waste of energy to get upset about and fight back against baseless claims of bigotry.

Aye, but everyone can still do a bit of good by trying to educate others on the issues. Remember as long as you can help at least one person understand that their views are hurtful then it isn't really a waste.
But people got to understand the social demographic shifts on such issues takes a lot of time and a lot of discourse between everyone involved. As long as you stay civil, that will help keep others civil.

 

[plutoknight]

This is the real sad part. By playing into the hands of the assholes who began their anti-equality crusade under the guise of a call for journalistic ethics, they get to continue to dictate who and who isn't welcome in the industry. We've spent more time arguing about the word gamer than we have actively trying to snuff out the reprehensible shit-slinging and misogyny that goes on within and in the periphery of the industry. If even half the people saying they aren't bigots would call out the people who actually are, not only would we not have to be dealing with this stuff but the industry and community would be a better place in general.

People who are making this argument: How do you propose we get rid of the assholes, and how do we keep them gone?

I think changing attitudes is a much better (if loftier) solution, since I'm inclined to think if it were just that easy to eradicate the assholes, why would we need sweeping political movements like feminism to change things when we can just snuff the bad ones out?

Aye, but everyone can still do a bit of good by trying to educate others on the issues. Remember as long as you can help at least one person understand that their views are hurtful then it isn't really a waste.
But people got to understand the social demographic shifts on such issues takes a lot of time and a lot of discourse between everyone involved. As long as you stay civil, that will help keep others civil.

Unfortunately, society loves instant gratification, which is why Twitter rage is so popular :/ Everyone just rages instead of taking time to think on the issues and examine them; it's a gut-reaction, mob-mentality society.

 

[Oersted]

Have we figured out yet, which sides the guys in here are referring to?

 

[eyeless]

By the way, slightly off topic, looks like Anita trying to force neutral game developer to choose sides now https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/507403315450105856

your series of posts in this thread have been magnifique breh

mind if i ask ya a quick q: for what reason did you post that tweet in this topic

 

[CombustibleNate]

Is that clear?

Crystal. However, this discussion is mostly game-related. Anita, Zoe, Mattie, Phil, 4chan (/v/ in particular), and many others "wronged by misogyny and harassment" in all of this are all involved in games. If these people claiming to be feminist, who some admittedly don't play games or care to play games, why are they in this discussion adding fuel to the fire? What stake do they have?

People like Leigh Alexander (who I really respected before this fiasco and is a gamer feminist though she won't say gamer anymore) can call Adam Baldwin a crackhead or one of those (which drug-abuse is now a diagnosable disease) and any speaking out against her is marked as a misogynist or in the least some against "the cause" and this is okay? Why aren't the people fighting the gamer culture that are actually involved in games not calling out the bad in the opposing gamers as well as the issues within their own group?

 

[unround]

Have we figured out yet, which sides the guys in here are referring to?

They do seem to be rather shy about stating this plainly, yeah

 

[aeolist]

We definitely need women not only in game journalism, game industry and gaming culture. It is not only promote diversity but also creating healthy culture.

By the way, slightly off topic, looks like Anita trying to force neutral game developer to choose sides now https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/507403315450105856

there is no forcing, people are either for change or for the status quo

 

[wildfire]

I like Boogie a lot. But, this video made me sad. I believe he's sincere but it shows a lack of understanding. He doesn't really address anything that's happening. He just sets up a strawman argument in the beginning of the video and goes to town.

Sounds like a future Glenn Beck for gaming. Who will be our John Stewart?

 

[Corpekata]

We definitely need women not only in game journalism, game industry and gaming culture. It is not only promote diversity but also creating healthy culture.

By the way, slightly off topic, looks like Anita trying to force neutral game developer to choose sides now https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/507403315450105856

How is that forcing anyone exactly? It's directed at the entire industry. If she were harassing specific devs or something, sure, but there's nothing sinister about this.

 

[Abelian75]

I've seen and had a few decent conversations on twitter amid the noise with people who support #GamerGate even though I oppose it.

Oh and likewise, I don't mean to suggest there aren't good conversations to be had, nor that there aren't good ones ongoing now (and I guess I'd be on the "supports" gamergate side, in some sense... I sympathize with their more sane members, at least, though I'm also arguing it's doing more harm than good at this point).

I'm just saying that despite any good conversations happening, it feels like the craziness as a whole is doing more harm than any good that could possibly come out of these discussions. We can just have them at another time! Any valid point being made right now just becomes more fuel for some asshole to bludgeon people over the head with until they flee in terror.

I realize I'm being silly, because it's a mob and I am a single human who has no control over anything. Just frustrated and wishing we could all just hug it out.

 

[SparkPeople]

there is no forcing, people are either for change or for the status quo

I disagree with that. My view of, or method of, progress maybe different than her's. It's poor form to shun those who don't follow you in lock step as promoters of the status quo.

 

[Gaogaogao]

We definitely need women not only in game journalism, game industry and gaming culture. It is not only promote diversity but also creating healthy culture.

By the way, slightly off topic, looks like Anita trying to force neutral game developer to choose sides now https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/507403315450105856

let me off, this is my stop

to put it another way, im tired of the arguing.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Maybe not all gamers are bigots about the exact same things, but i believe all PEOPLE are prejudiced about something or another. It's human nature to judge others.

 

[EdibleKnife]

People who are making this argument: How do you propose we get rid of the assholes, and how do we keep them gone?

Speak up for goodness sakes. I don't give two flying figs what peopl think of Anita, or Jessica Chobot or any such person. When some asshole or troll tries to make someone else's life miserable with their words, you fire back. Tell them how not acceptable it is to call Anita X, Y, Z despite how you might feel about her videos. Don't let people simply stop at "character gender or color shouldn't matter". Say why it matters. When you know that the gaming community is more diverse, stop accepting creative stagnation from the industry. It's simple. Sweeping movements like feminism happen when there is an observed inequality, not just when people are bored and have nothing better to do. If you realize that you'll start perceiving where people who are annoyed about the state of the industry are coming from. When the assholes start to know they are overwhelmed either their own perceptions will start to change or they'll simply shut up.

 

[FF Seraphim]

We definitely need women not only in game journalism, game industry and gaming culture. It is not only promote diversity but also creating healthy culture.

By the way, slightly off topic, looks like Anita trying to force neutral game developer to choose sides now https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/507403315450105856

Lets be honest "neutral" game developers will choose the "side" at the moment that will not hurt their bottom line. As long as people realize this, they should understand more than likely the "side" they (developers) will take would be one of silence.

 

[Jobbs]

We definitely need women not only in game journalism, game industry and gaming culture. It is not only promote diversity but also creating healthy culture.

By the way, slightly off topic, looks like Anita trying to force neutral game developer to choose sides now https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/507403315450105856

I don't think that tweet is unreasonable, especially given the horror she's experiencing personally as a result of this.

 

[Oersted]

your series of posts in this thread have been magnifique breh

mind if i ask ya a quick q: for what reason did you post that tweet in this topic

In a thread with the statement that not all gamers are misogynists (an intriguing premise, because who would have known), we have to point out how evil/ hateful/ stupid some women and feminists are. Because reasons.

 

[plutoknight]

Have we figured out yet, which sides the guys in here are referring to?

Loosely defined, as I see it (and no doubt others see it differently):

Side one: SJW's (Social justice..Warriors, I think), a group of people that, in this particular case, are fighting against misogynistic ideals in the gaming industry.
Side two: Gamers, divided into two categories for the sake of this argument:
Cat. A: The subset of gamers that, yes, are promoting misogyny by harassing prominent female figures to the point where they leave the industry (or go into hiding because of death threats, etc.)
Cat. B: The subset of gamers who are passionate about this issue and don't want their hobby to be tainted by misogyny, but also don't want to be labeled as such because of Cat. A.

 

[jim2point0]

We definitely need women not only in game journalism, game industry and gaming culture. It is not only promote diversity but also creating healthy culture.

By the way, slightly off topic, looks like Anita trying to force neutral game developer to choose sides now https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/507403315450105856

Huh.

I think I'm neutral. How do I know which "side" I'm on. I didn't even know there were sides until today.

It feels like I was frozen in a giant block of Ice for 100 years, only to wake up and learn that the Fire Nation attacked.

 

[HarryKS]

The true enemy is lag.

 

[CambriaRising]

http://www.mattiebrice.com/how-do-i-help/

http://leighalexander.net/but-what-can-be-done-dos-and-donts-to-combat-online-sexism/

And if you're a guy: https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0

I've seen both of those links before, and while they are worthwhile pieces of advice, they are not very proactive. They don't combat the actual problem of people harassing others. These people feel that there are no consequences for their actions, because there aren't, especially on twitter. (Which is where the bulk of this happens) I've sent 2 long emails to twitter in support of better curation and moderation for harassment when this stuff happened before. Its deaf ears.

Also your last link doesn't work but I am interested in reading it if you can find the content again. You can just pm it to me if you do.

How is it that you don't see the same kind of open racism you used to? It at least partly because society (and the people within it) started frowning on it. The climate that used to exist where in someone could say something racist without fear of reprisal or people thinking badly of them, or whatever, was slowly eroded.

So that's what you can do. Openly criticize anyone you see being bigoted and making us all look bad, and if appropriate report them for breaking the terms of use for the service they are posting on, or the forum rules, or whatever.

I don't think anyone except the harassers is okay with any of the harassment that has happened. You see it here as well in the Anita thread where she left her home. Even people who disagree with what she is saying do not think she deserves what has happened to her.

The reason people like Boogie are upset about all of this is because as someone who is all about inclusiveness, he feels like he is being lumped in with the harassers just because they have a hobby in common due to the passive aggressive, and outright aggressive twitter posts from people prominent in the industry blanket shotting "gamers" as a whole instead of focusing on the individuals who are taking part in the harassment. Boogie sees his fair share of harassment, so I don't think he is in the worst position to speak about narrowing the sights.

 

[CombustibleNate]

People who are making this argument: How do you propose we get rid of the assholes, and how do we keep them gone?

This. The problem with the internet is that it's a completely open forum where people can make false identities to assault others if the victim so much as annoys the person. We also lack age verification which permits children to post their opinions when they hardly have any position in the discussion (and typically are more quick to throw out extremely vulgar and ridiculous statements.)

You are also just existing in a world where people are more willing to share their opinion without much though to the repercussions and like I said earlier, those people may be immature or mentally ill. It's not an easy problem to get rid of and if someone hurls are racist comment from the sea of anonymity, you can suddenly go on a genocidal rampage against the crowd.

 

[plagiarize]

Do you really think that trying to shame people into activism is going to work? Gaming community cant solve these issues, they are not part of gaming society, they are part of the individual's culture and society.

And this movement of trying to shame people is just wrong.

If you think that gamers have more issues with gender equality than other "communities", you are way out of touch with reality.

Whole premise is completely wrong.

I see other communities that have less of these issues than us. I recognize that there is a bigger issue at large within society (and I even recognize that there are communities that have it even worse than we do!).

But since I perceive less of these issues within genre TV fandom, I believe that gaming can do better than it is and that achieving that is entirely within our power. Acceptable behavior is in part defined by what behavior we the gamers treat as acceptable.

Pointing out that things are also terrible within, say, the comic book community doesn't mean we can't do anything to improve our own. Again, other communities demonstrate that we could be better, so I think we should do something about it.

Naturally you can hold other viewpoints. You can think my suggestions are ill advised, and we can have a good conversation about the whole matter, as I genuinely think we are having.

But 'there's nothing we can do' is an intoxicating belief. It exonerates and absolves you of any responsibility. It's far too easy to believe when it isn't true.

 

[Sneds]

Oh and likewise, I don't mean to suggest there aren't good conversations to be had, nor that there aren't good ones ongoing now (and I guess I'd be on the "supports" gamergate side, in some sense... I sympathize with their more sane members, at least, though I'm also arguing it's doing more harm than good at this point).

I'm just saying that despite any good conversations happening, it feels like the craziness as a whole is doing more harm than any good that could possibly come out of these discussions. We can just have them at another time! Any valid point being made right now just becomes more fuel for some asshole to bludgeon people over the head with until they flee in terror.

I realize I'm being silly, because it's a mob and I am a single human who has no control over anything. Just frustrated and wishing we could all just hug it out.

I feel as though #GamerGate has been on the cards for a long time. For a while now there have been tensions in the 'gamer community' between those who want to promote a more inclusive atmosphere and those who don't. There have been a number of 'controversies' over the last few years about sexism in gaming and gaf is always split down the middle between those who see it as a real problem and those who don't.

 

[eyeless]

I disagree with that. My view of, or method of, progress maybe different than her's. It's poor form to shun those who don't follow you in lock step as promoters of the status quo.

what is your view or method of progress? i'm assuming you agree with the point that overall the way women are represented in games should be better, but simply disagree with her methods. what is your method of progress?

 

[aeolist]

I disagree with that. My view of, or method of, progress maybe different than her's. It's poor form to shun those who don't follow you in lock step as promoters of the status quo.

nowhere in that quote does she say that you have to be ideologically pure as she defines it. there is plenty of room for civil disagreement among those whose general aims coincide.

the point is that you can't be generally neutral. if you think you are then you are really just pro-stasis.

 

[APF]

When gamers promote a cause like Child's Play, we as gamers think to ourselves, "hey gamers are pretty cool, caring people!" We use things like this--the great things we can accomplish when we get together--as a means to show people who aren't as in tune with our hobby that we're not like the stereotypes many (particularly older) people have about folks who game.

However what we don't do is actively try and confront the opposite of the good we can do. When gamers get together and accomplish horrible things. When gamers create situations that reinforce all the bad stereotypes we feel don't accurately portray us, who we really are or want to think we are. Issues about press transparency are important, but are being addressed. Gamers are now beating the corpse, over and over and over again, driving good people out of the industry due to overwhelming harassment and oppression, and beating any good reputation of us as a community into the ground. Is concern over, say, Ben Kuchera not revealing the public information that he's backing Zoe Quinn's Patreon really worth this?

 

[Ponn]

I really feel like this is my "I'm too old for this shit" moment. It's just to the point where I just honestly want the conversation to go away. And I don't mean in the sense of "let's stop talking about issues that women/minorities/other underrepresented groups face" in as much as I'm just stupefied that we've reached this current level of controversy. Things have come to a boiling point and I just don't get it. And I don't know how much more interest I can muster in carrying on as though this controversy is deserving of a reasonable conversation.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

Seeing the internet play out in all is zealotry before this to wont end well. Thats why im personally upset because of the wanton tanking and shaming of the term gamer. When all is said and done anyone that plays videogames will still be stuck with that term after its been dragged through the mud by people with agendas. And yes thats everyone including people in conservative circles now using tis for their agendas.

The main problem is the most vocal are unrelenting to listen to anyone about any issues and consider any criticism at all as an attack against their agenda regardless if its hurting their cause or not. I feel scorched earth i used in another thread is fitting.

Im probably dating myself but seeing some of these conversations reminds me of the Fonz.

"I was wwwwwwwrrrr...i was wrrrrrrrrrr....wrrroooo...oh fuck it i will just be obtuse and roll right along"

 

[plagiarize]

I don't think anyone except the harassers is okay with any of the harassment that has happened. You see it here as well in the Anita thread where she left her home. Even people who disagree with what she is saying do not think she deserves what has happened to her.

That's not universally true, sadly. In that thread we had multiple people starting on the very first page who questioned if she had made the whole thing up for publicity, who characterized what had happened as just being mean things typed online that would never amount to anything, and who put forwards the idea that she wasn't remotely upset by the threats and was just leveraging it for publicity.

Yes, we had many people saying they disagreed with her and thought the threats were wrong, but that isn't all we had. Most if not all of the people who posted the kinds of things I mention above were rightly banned, but they still felt that NeoGAF was an appropriate place to post such comments... and we can help change that.

 

[Oersted]

Loosely defined, as I see it (and no doubt others see it differently):

Side one: SJW's (Social justice..Warriors, I think), a group of people that, in this particular case, are fighting against misogynistic ideals in the gaming industry.
Side two: Gamers, divided into two categories for the sake of this argument:
Cat. A: The subset of gamers that, yes, are promoting misogyny by harassing prominent female figures to the point where they leave the industry (or go into hiding because of death threats, etc.)
Cat. B: The subset of gamers who are passionate about this issue and don't want their hobby to be tainted by misogyny, but also don't want to be labeled as such because of Cat. A.

Trust me, most of us who demand better representation/ less (sexual) harassment etc. are "gamers".

Btw, your sides read like mysogonists and people who really with them because they don't want their hobby painted in a bad light vs feminists.

 

[Gestault]

I like Boogie a lot, but this is pretty much textbook #notallmen :/

It would be, but only if Boogie were denying the cultural issue of diversity representation and sexism. I didn't catch him saying that anywhere in the video.

If the accepted outlook on a self-selecting, statistically massive community is that they are the same as media they might consume, or that it's ok to define them by an extreme end of those included (with whom there's no method to exclude), or that there's merit to making discrete accusations about the whole because of a small subset the remainder has no control over, then there's a problem in that discourse that's quite apart from gender or diversity issues. Boogie is responding to the editorial tone in game writing and discussion, not denying a problem.

Identifying a "Not All Men" fallacy is quite different from using the #Notallmen label to dismiss those pointing out that a wholesale critique of a community that alienates even those critical of that problem is too broad to meaningfully target any issue. Even a cultural one. Jenn Frank's article on the circumstances seems to strike the perfect balance, at least for my taste, of confronting the behavior and attitudes without overstepping.

 

[Yrael]

By the way, slightly off topic, looks like Anita trying to force neutral game developer to choose sides now https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/507403315450105856

I believe what she means is that if someone is aware of the fact that the culture is seeped in misogyny, and yet still chooses to remain neutral by, for instance, not condemning the ongoing death/rape threats and harassment, they are effectively tacitly endorsing that culture even if they don't intend to.

 

[bootski]

Loosely defined, as I see it (and no doubt others see it differently):

Side one: SJW's (Social justice..Warriors, I think), a group of people that, in this particular case, are fighting against misogynistic ideals in the gaming industry.
Side two: Gamers, divided into two categories for the sake of this argument:
Cat. A: The subset of gamers that, yes, are promoting misogyny by harassing prominent female figures to the point where they leave the industry (or go into hiding because of death threats, etc.)
Cat. B: The subset of gamers who are passionate about this issue and don't want their hobby to be tainted by misogyny, but also don't want to be labeled as such because of Cat. A.

i don't think they really wanted an answer. i think they just want to post snarky one liners without contributing anything. it's been pretty plain to see from this thread what the "sides" are. it's even more obvious that they aren't really in disagreement which each other, just talking past one another.

 

[marrec]

I believe what she means is that if someone is aware of the fact that the culture is seeped in misogyny, and yet still chooses to remain neutral by, for instance, not condemning the ongoing death/rape threats and harassment, they are effectively tacitly endorsing that culture even if they don't intend to.

Yep. Lets put up a show of force and resistance against the common stereotype by actually resisting the stereotypical harassment and hate that is so prevalent in our 'culture'. If you don't do that, then you aren't neutral, you're actively participating in creating the vacuum that's being filled by these vile people.

 

[Sakwoff]

I've yet to see a satisfying answer on why Gamergate is targeting individual freelance women writers and not you know, corporations.

Mind you, the only reported cases of _actual_ corruption (Gerstmann firing for example) WERE corporate. But I don't see anyone going after, dunno, IGN's management or something.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Seeing the internet play out in all is zealotry before this to wont end well. Thats why im personally upset because of the wanton tanking and shaming of the term gamer. When all is said and done anyone that plays videogames will still be stuck with that term after its been dragged through the mud by people with agendas. And yes thats everyone including people in conservative circles now using tis for their agendas.

Just so we're clear, I personally have no vested interest in either protecting or shaming the term "gamer."

 

[plutoknight]

Trust me, most of us who demand better representation/ less (sexual) harassment etc. are "gamers".

Btw, your sides read like mysogonists and people who really with them because they don't want their hobby painted in a bad light vs feminists.

Do you mind defining the sides in your terms (so I can compare notes!)? I'll admit I could do better, and I even said it was 'loosely defined' and there are myriad complexities within, plus my own biases/etc.

i don't think they really wanted an answer. i think they just want to post snarky one liners without contributing anything. it's been pretty plain to see from this thread what the "sides" are. it's even more obvious that they aren't really in disagreement which each other, just talking past one another.

Scratch that. I think bootski nailed it.

 

[plagiarize]

Loosely defined, as I see it (and no doubt others see it differently):

Side one: SJW's (Social justice..Warriors, I think), a group of people that, in this particular case, are fighting against misogynistic ideals in the gaming industry.
Side two: Gamers, divided into two categories for the sake of this argument:
Cat. A: The subset of gamers that, yes, are promoting misogyny by harassing prominent female figures to the point where they leave the industry (or go into hiding because of death threats, etc.)
Cat. B: The subset of gamers who are passionate about this issue and don't want their hobby to be tainted by misogyny, but also don't want to be labeled as such because of Cat. A.

See, you don't categorize me as a gamer, but you complain about people categorizing all gamers as being this or that.

Again, to be clear, I'm not throwing you on a 'side' here. We had one of those assholes that make us all look bad in here earlier but the mods took care of them.

 

[Sneds]

i don't think they really wanted an answer. i think they just want to post snarky one liners without contributing anything. it's been pretty plain to see from this thread what the "sides" are. it's even more obvious that they aren't really in disagreement which each other, just talking past one another.

I don't think that's true. There is genuine disagreement about the extent to which misogyny is a problem in gaming. There is also disagreement about whether people in the press and industry socialising amounts to corruption.

 

[plutoknight]

Edited because quoted post edited theirs and I made a more appropriate reply

 

[E92 M3]

I miss the simpler days of console wars. I envy the ones ignorant to all of these "issues" because video games should be about fun and escape - not furthering agendas for different groups.