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[SparkPeople]

what is your view or method of progress? i'm assuming you agree with the point that overall the way women are represented in games should be better, but simply disagree with her methods. what is your method of progress?

Clearly outline what my goals are for women in videogames, be in it in the actual game (granting them agency and complete character etc), art, programming, PR, or conceptual design. What the end goal is, economic benefits for publishers, and general benefits for gamers. (I would love to get a game playing a female protagonist...like Faith in Mirror's Edge. Lara Croft was good too, I guess.)

Create opportunities for women to participate in this process, like the TFYC indiegogo campaign. Publish those games to the public, without the super heavy emphasis of women made this, you should be proud of them. It's patronizing to treat an adult like that.

Use them as examples of the positive effect of bringing another point of view into gaming, and what the experiences can teach us about the opposite gender.

Action > words. Always. Talking about the gym doesn't make you a body builder, going there consistently does.

I don't read tumblr, I don't like twitter, my only exposure to the feminist critique of videogames is a random person talking about it on youtube. That's not going to stick with me. Mirror's Edge did, and always will.

 

[Oersted]

See, you don't categorize me as a gamer, but you complain about people categorizing all gamers as being this or that.

Women/feminists are not real gamers. You should have learned that by now.

/sarcasm

 

[CambriaRising]

That's not universally true, sadly. In that thread we had multiple people starting on the very first page who questioned if she had made the whole thing up for publicity, who characterized what had happened as just being mean things typed online that would never amount to anything, and who put forwards the idea that she wasn't remotely upset by the threats and was just leveraging it for publicity.

Yes, we had many people saying they disagreed with her and thought the threats were wrong, but that isn't all we had. Most if not all of the people who posted the kinds of things I mention above were rightly banned, but they still felt that NeoGAF was an appropriate place to post such comments... and we can help change that.

Well unfortunately I feel like there are some people on this board who avoid these discussions because they know they feel wrongly on the topic, but can't help themselves sometimes. The moderation team does a good job of taking care of people who act like that though, at least I believe so. As described above, its a slow change. I just wish there was a more proactive way to go about quelling it.

 

[FinalStageBoss]

First time I'm hearing about this gamergate thing and it all sounds so incredibly fucking stupid. I'm going back to playing diablo.

Boogies still cool tho <3

 

[Felix Lighter]

This controversy has reached such a ridiculous point. I imagine the point of the escalated rhetoric was to hopefully trigger some self reflection and maybe trigger a more visible backlash against the worst of the community. It has apparently backfired because the harassers seem to be left mostly unfazed while those trying to shine a brighter light on the harassment are now being vilified. It's especially discouraging to see people suggest that both sides are equally bad now.

I don't know where things go from here. There is a rotten and dangerous segment of the community and they seem to get less resistance from "gamers" than those who dare insult the subculture for allowing that group to be their voice.

 

[cpp_is_king]

My take on all this is this: Anita needs to put her money where her mouth is. She's done a good job of raising awareness of the issues women face in the gaming industry. But she's not going to gain much more momentum if she keeps being divisive. Isnt division, separation, and exclusion the exact thing she's trying to eliminate?

There are probably plenty of developers out there thinking "Yea, i would totally love to make a game where women are in the forefront, but we won't be able to get published". Instead of just talking, she needs to set an example. She clearly has a vision for how she would like games to be. Stand up and make one. I know she has some money from her videos. She can do a kickstarter too. She would get a lot of backing. Show people there's money to be made here. Actions speak louder than words.

She is in a position to have a major positive impact on the industry, but the hallmark of a successful business is risk management. If she really wants to take her movement to the next level, she needs to prove it's viable and stop deepening the already deep divides.

 

[CombustibleNate]

Lara Croft was good too, I guess.

The "I guess" part gets to me. What was wrong with her that you have to question her representation? I want to type a paragraph about what I assume you are thinking, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.

 

[Mononoke]

EDIT: Nevermind guess I'm not going to get an answer. I'll just go look for it myself and hopefully I can make sense of this. Because I really can't as of now.

 

[SparkPeople]

nowhere in that quote does she say that you have to be ideologically pure as she defines it. there is plenty of room for civil disagreement among those whose general aims coincide.

the point is that you can't be generally neutral. if you think you are then you are really just pro-stasis.

You can't make an opinion about something without interacting with the groups. In a hostile environment where saying the wrong thing runs the risk of online and offline harassment from either side, why would I even bother?

The status quo is being kept because there is no room for civil disagreement within either communities.

 

[plagiarize]

I miss the simpler days of console wars. I envy the ones ignorant to all of these "issues" because video games should be about fun and escape - not furthering agendas for different groups.

They should be about fun and escapism and I wish gaming was more inclusive and didn't make any groups of people feel that it isn't 'for them' as a result. I remain optimistic that it can continue to move in the right direction towards that... but I know that it doesn't move by itself, and that acting like it will, or like there isn't anything that needs fixing, isn't going to help anything.

 

[DoktorEvil]

I miss the simpler days of console wars. I envy the ones ignorant to all of these "issues" because video games should be about fun and escape - not furthering agendas for different groups.

Even a lot of that was stupid. Remember all of the "PC master race" comments thrown around at console gaming? They still are thrown around.

But I'd rather take that stupidity than trying to decipher what agendas people who critique games on Youtube or Games Journalism or any of that sort, and I like Anita's more recent critiques.

Besides, I would hope to think most people would understand gaming journalism is simply fancy marketing material from different publishers. When Nintendo Power was around, it was hard to find objectivity in anything that magazine offered.

My take on all this is this: Anita needs to put her money where her mouth is. She's done a good job of raising awareness of the issues women face in the gaming industry. But she's not going to gain much more momentum if she keeps being divisive. Isnt division, separation, and exclusion the exact thing she's trying to eliminate?

There are probably plenty of developers out there thinking "Yea, i would totally love to make a game where women are in the forefront, but we won't be able to get published". Instead of just talking, she needs to set an example. She clearly has a vision for how she would like games to be. Stand up and make one. I know she has some money from her videos. She can do a kickstarter too. She would get a lot of backing. Show people there's money to be made here. Actions speak louder than words.

She is in a position to have a major positive impact on the industry, but the hallmark of a successful business is risk management. If she really wants to take her movement to the next level, she needs to prove it's viable and stop deepening the already deep divides.

Absolutely. She should if she has a legitimate gripe with the female perspective in video games. She proved to raise the funds for her videos, why not prove it with a games company?

 

[bootski]

I don't think that's true. There is genuine disagreement about the extent to which misogyny is a problem in gaming. There is also disagreement about whether people in the press and industry socialising amounts to corruption.

thats my point. there's two completely separate discussions happening.

 

[plagiarize]

You can't make an opinion about something without interacting with the groups. In a hostile environment where saying the wrong thing runs the risk of online and offline harassment from either side, why would I even bother?

The status quo is being kept because there is no room for civil disagreement within either communities.

I am not remotely afraid of what bigots think of me.

 

[spwolf]

I see other communities that have less of these issues than us. I recognize that there is a bigger issue at large within society (and I even recognize that there are communities that have it even worse than we do!).

Gender equality is a society issue not gaming one.

I find it terribly annoying that people are trying to use gaming and gamers as some sort of political platform here.

I just cant believe that anyone that is open thinking and experienced in life could think that gaming industry has a bigger problem with gender equality than rest of the world. I follow tech, movie and car industries and am part of their community. There is far, far, far, far less gender equality in these industries than in gaming. And this is factual, not make believe.

So complete premise is wrong and it comes down to how do we make people be nice on twitter? Why the fuck should I care about what the fuck some asshole says on twitter?

Other communities are much more mature and at the same time, they dont even see a problem with gender equality in movies or car industry so you cant even start this controversy there - you will pass unnoticed and laughed at.

Gaming and software industry in whole is full of open thinking individuals and is far more advanced than pretty much every other non-arty part of society when it comes to gender equality.

So what should I do if someone is being asshole on twitter? I will not read their posts? If someone is being asshole on Neogaf, they will be banned? Someone posting asshole opinion on facebook, I will either argue with or ban. But I wont equate that with "gaming" community - I will equate that with his political belief, status in society, his birth place, etc.

If you want to provide counseling to all the assholes in the world, be my guest... but dont relate that to gaming.

Otherwise, you are not being any better than media claiming that Columbine happened due to video games. It is personally disgusting to see "FOX News" methods being used by parts of society that should be more open and forward thinking.

 

[RadarScope1]

I really feel like this is my "I'm too old for this shit" moment. It's just to the point where I just honestly want the conversation to go away. And I don't mean in the sense of "let's stop talking about issues that women/minorities/other underrepresented groups face" in as much as I'm just stupefied that we've reached this current level of controversy. Things have come to a boiling point and I just don't get it. And I don't know how much more interest I can muster in carrying on as though this controversy is deserving of a reasonable conversation.

I'm getting too old for this shit.

+1

And a huge hat tip to all the mods throughout this.

 

[plutoknight]

See, you don't categorize me as a gamer, but you complain about people categorizing all gamers as being this or that.

Again, to be clear, I'm not throwing you on a 'side' here. We had one of those assholes that make us all look bad in here earlier but the mods took care of them.

(I'm double replying because I didn't see your edit, gonna go edit my other post out after this)

I'm not trying to be one of those assholes (quite the contrary, I'm trying to ascertain an understanding myself), so I'm curious, how would you describe yourself in the terms of the argument here and what 'side' (if we have to be on a side, anyway) would you be on? (Neutral is an option as long as you support it!)

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I miss the simpler days of console wars. I envy the ones ignorant to all of these "issues" because video games should be about fun and escape - not furthering agendas for different groups.

I can completely understand frustration with the current tone of the conversation, but I think a post like this also misses the point. There's certainly a place to discuss social issues as they relate to gaming. However, there's no reason for it to have exploded in this fashion to reach the current levels of controversy as they relate to whatever the fuck this whole current mess is even about.

But the takeaway -- for me at least -- is not "we should have just kept at talking about games as fun and ignored needless forays into talks of representation." Because that's certainly not what I'm advocating. And I say that as someone who is frankly fed up with reaction after reaction to Zoe Post/#GamerGate/#NotYourShield/whatever else.

 

[Sneds]

My take on all this is this: Anita needs to put her money where her mouth is. She's done a good job of raising awareness of the issues women face in the gaming industry. But she's not going to gain much more momentum if she keeps being divisive. Isnt division, separation, and exclusion the exact thing she's trying to eliminate?

There are probably plenty of developers out there thinking "Yea, i would totally love to make a game where women are in the forefront, but we won't be able to get published". Instead of just talking, she needs to set an example. She clearly has a vision for how she would like games to be. Stand up and make one. I know she has some money from her videos. She can do a kickstarter too. She would get a lot of backing. Show people there's money to be made here. Actions speak louder than words.

She is in a position to have a major positive impact on the industry, but the hallmark of a successful business is risk management. If she really wants to take her movement to the next level, she needs to prove it's viable and stop deepening the already deep divides.

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Anita is pointing out a problem.

That's her role as a critic. Why is it suddenly her job to start funding game development?

 

[Cyrano]

I miss the simpler days of console wars. I envy the ones ignorant to all of these "issues" because video games should be about fun and escape - not furthering agendas for different groups.

They were about furthering agendas back then too. Less people knew about them is the only difference.

Still, these are growing pains. If the industry has any hope of remaining relevant, it must become more inclusive.

 

[Oersted]

My take on all this is this: Anita needs to put her money where her mouth is. She's done a good job of raising awareness of the issues women face in the gaming industry. But she's not going to gain much more momentum if she keeps being divisive. Isnt division, separation, and exclusion the exact thing she's trying to eliminate?

There are probably plenty of developers out there thinking "Yea, i would totally love to make a game where women are in the forefront, but we won't be able to get published". Instead of just talking, she needs to set an example. She clearly has a vision for how she would like games to be. Stand up and make one. I know she has some money from her videos. She can do a kickstarter too. She would get a lot of backing. Show people there's money to be made here. Actions speak louder than words.

She is in a position to have a major positive impact on the industry, but the hallmark of a successful business is risk management. If she really wants to take her movement to the next level, she needs to prove it's viable and stop deepening the already deep divides.

It is funny that you make a totally unrelated attack on Anita Sarkeesian, in a thread which is about the intriguing premise that not all gamers are mysogonists. Funny and telling.

 

[aeolist]

You can't make an opinion about something without interacting with the groups. In a hostile environment where saying the wrong thing runs the risk of online and offline harassment from either side, why would I even bother?

The status quo is being kept because there is no room for civil disagreement within either communities.

the status quo is being kept because it is beneficial to one side, and the only people being harassed to the point where they are leaving the industry entirely are the ones who want change. more specifically, the women who want change, because they are far more prone to be harassed in worse ways.

 

[Sakwoff]

My take on all this is this: Anita needs to put her money where her mouth is. She's done a good job of raising awareness of the issues women face in the gaming industry. But she's not going to gain much more momentum if she keeps being divisive. Isnt division, separation, and exclusion the exact thing she's trying to eliminate?

The thing is, she kinda isn't.

What she's doing is applying basic literary criticism to games. Nothing more. Literally nothing more. Have you seen her videos?

I teach introductory critical theory in university. Feminist and gender theory is something we do in first year. Because it is essential and insightful. And you know what? We actually go much further than Anita does in her videos.

I think Anita is actually very gentle and thoughtful in her analysis. And not in any way radical. Really. This is just what actual criticism looks like.

 

[Daffy Duck]

Is it OK to ask in here about the Zoe Quinn stuff in the internetaristocat videos?

I just want to know how much truth there is to those claims in the videos about her shutting down sites through doxxing etc and the whole help women gamers make a game thing.

As I understand this is one facet of this whole debacle.

 

[tbm24]

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Anita is pointing out a problem.

That's her role as a critic. Why is it suddenly her job to start funding game development?

Don't believe he's suggesting it's her job to do it. It's just as she is one of the more prominent and public figures pushing for equality within gaming. It seems like a worthwhile endeavor on her part to pursue that avenue because at the end of the day. Nothing is going to change until the games being made change.

 

[ab.aeterno]

This has nothing to do with games; this is a debate on the term 'gamer' and the overwhelming negative connotation the term is being given because of a small subset of people.

The part (the assholes) doesn't represent the whole (all of us gamers) and we want to make that message known.

Then make it known by making it clear that bigoted assholes don't belong in our community, not by saying so but by confronting said people when they say or do hateful things that make this community feel unwelcome to minorities.

I don't need to be told that not all gamers are assholes and you're one of the good ones and really there are quite a lot as someone is verbally or textually abusing me with slurs like faggot, I need to have someone besides myself say "cut that shit out" as it's happening. Because it sure as shit isn't happening now in my experience, despite everyone making it so god damn clear that they don't condone it.

 

[marrec]

Is it OK to ask in here about the Zoe Quinn stuff in the internetaristocat videos?

I just want to know how much truth there is to those claims in the videos about her shutting down sites through doxxing etc and the whole help women gamers make a game thing.

As I understand this is one facet of this whole debacle.

There is zero truth to it. TFYC came out and said as much.

 

[Sneds]

Don't believe he's suggesting it's her job to do it. It's just as she is one of the more prominent and public figures pushing for equality within gaming. It seems like a worthwhile endeavor on her part to pursue that avenue because at the end of the day. Nothing is going to change until the games being made change.

Except that game developers do seem to have been influenced by her videos.

 

[Sakwoff]

Is it OK to ask in here about the Zoe Quinn stuff in the internetaristocat videos?

I just want to know how much truth there is to those claims in the videos about her shutting down sites through doxxing etc and the whole help women gamers make a game thing.

As I understand this is one facet of this whole debacle.

Zero truth. Turned out to be all fabricated. Funny, huh?

 

[Shig]

I don't understand why people like Anita Sarkeesan or whatever feel its important to present their findings to the consumers of video-games.

For the same reason anyone researches anything. They see trends and they think they merit further inspection.

Her videos are feminist critiques of videogames, aimed towards feminists. It communicates little to gamers beyond "what you enjoy is wrong in my eyes, and you should feel bad about it." No one wants to be told their hobby is harmful to other people, and with such an abstract link between the role of women in videogames, and their roles in real-life it seems like a baseless attack to most gamers.

No one wants to be told that, but if there are negative trends, they shouldn't be immune to criticism. And what are these judgements you're making on her observations? Pointing out that the typified role of women in games is rife with caricature and objectification isn't an abstract criticism, it's plainly visible to anyone that cares to look around.

And someone who makes a video series that researches and identifies clear examples and trends is engaging in the polar opposite of "baseless attacks." You can take issue with her tone and pick at the relevance of smaller examples within her arguments, but if you take issue with the larger thesis of "Videogames have a pretty bad track record with positive female representation and naturalistic female portrayals," then you're just being willfully obtuse. She's not putting a gun to your head to concede that it comes from some wicked shadow government of misogynistic malfeasance, just to realize that an industry whose output is overwhelmingly delivered by men *might* be a little out of touch with its femininity, and urge a little introspection on that point.

 

[cpp_is_king]

It is funny that you make a totally unrelated attack on Anita Sarkeesian, in a thread which is about the intriguing premise that not all gamers are mysogonists. Funny and telling.

You're right that i should have clarified. But the fact is that the sequence of events which led to the current state of affairs both start and end with her. Also, it's not an attack. It's an honest assessment of my take on how to move forward and stop flinging shit at each other.

 

[SparkPeople]

The "I guess" part gets to me. What was wrong with her that you have to question her representation? I want to type a paragraph about what I assume you are thinking, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.

She didn't have the same impact on me that Faith did. Maybe it was the story, which got weird with the spiritual stuff.

I liked Mirror's edge because there was no easy way out. She had a sister who she disagreed with, but still cared for. They were both trapped within a massive conspiracy, and she took the hard way out to crack it. The game could have easily been a series of package delivery challenges.

Most importantly though, the gameplay reflected the character. Faith isn't a fighter, or a gunner; she's a runner. She used her skills, talents, and size successfully within the context of the game, which made her a complete character in my eyes. The options within the game where a great example of alternative play styles too. You could use a gun, but you couldn't reload it because she didn't know how to/it worked against her natural skill set.

Lara croft, and the whole tomb raider set of games, could have easily been replaced with a Nathan Drake skin, or any random protagonist. Her character didn't matter in the end, because the environment and story was one that anyone could have been a part of.

 

[Daffy Duck]

There is zero truth to it. TFYC came out and said as much.

Zero truth. Turned out to be all fabricated. Funny, huh?

Well I'll be damned. I wont entertain watching the other two videos then.

 

[Sakwoff]

Except that game developers do seem to have been influenced by her videos.

Well, I would hope so.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Then make it known by making it clear that bigoted assholes don't belong in our community, not by saying so but by confronting said people when they say or do hateful things that make this community feel unwelcome to minorities.

Why do people keep saying this like people can't do both?

I have the capacity to point out bigoted assholes and also point out when people I agree with are being assholes about how they're voicing their opinion.

 

[Oersted]

Don't believe he's suggesting it's her job to do it. It's just as she is one of the more prominent and public figures pushing for equality within gaming. It seems like a worthwhile endeavor on her part to pursue that avenue because at the end of the day. Nothing is going to change until the games being made change.

Lets ignore the fact she does it trough her Twitter and blog, and get to the point:
Why do you guys bring this up? Seriously, why?

 

[Abelian75]

It is funny that you make a totally unrelated attack on Anita Sarkeesian, in a thread which is about the intriguing premise that not all gamers are mysogonists. Funny and telling.

I really don't think that qualifies as an attack. He made a suggestion about how to improve her message, and said she's done a good job so far. The fact that it sounded like an attack to you is an excellent illustration of my general feeling that actual discussion is impossible in this environment.

 

[Majukun]

trying to understand the problem but pages and pages of different arguments doesn't help.
what does exactly she is against?

-against how female are treated inside the industry (developers,game designers etc?)
-about how women are portrayed in some games and if they are sexualized?
-about the fact that there are not enough games that have women as the target audience?

 

[FF Seraphim]

It is funny that you make a totally unrelated attack on Anita Sarkeesian, in a thread which is about the intriguing premise that not all gamers are mysogonists. Funny and telling.

I do not know if you are intentionally meaning to attack the author of that post or we just have very different views on what he is suggesting...

To me it seems he likes what she is doing and because she is such a prominent figure for this movement, and in order to help progress it even farther, she should dabble in making a game to set an example the gaming industry should try to follow.

 

[tbm24]

Except that game developers do seem to have been influenced by her videos.

That's great, never suggest they haven't. Just it's clear, at least how I see it, that's it's going to take more and more games to continue the change. I think it'd be a good idea since I can envision say a kickstarter by her for this to be successful. I'd back it. I'm not a game developer but I can at least do that.

 

[plutoknight]

Then make it known by making it clear that bigoted assholes don't belong in our community, not by saying so but by confronting said people when they say or do hateful things that make this community feel unwelcome to minorities.

I don't need to be told that not all gamers are assholes and you're one of the one and really there are quite a lot as someone is verbally or textually abusing me with slurs like faggot, I need to have someone besides myself say "cut that shit out" as it's happening. Because it sure as shit isn't happening now in my experience, despite everyone making it so god damn clear that they don't condone it.

This was addressed earlier: How do you propose we get the assholes to 'cut that shit out' and how do they stop them from returning?

That's great, never suggest they haven't. Just it's clear, at least how I see it, that's it's going to take more and more games to continue the change. I think it'd be a good idea since I can envision say a kickstarter by her for this to be successful. I'd back it. I'm not a game developer but I can at least do that.

Anita is a great start, but we need more people like her in this industry. We need people like her making games, but I think, more importantly, we need more people critiquing games.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Don't believe he's suggesting it's her job to do it. It's just as she is one of the more prominent and public figures pushing for equality within gaming. It seems like a worthwhile endeavor on her part to pursue that avenue because at the end of the day. Nothing is going to change until the games being made change.

We have guys like Randy Pitchford, who's now being sued by Sega for defrauding them for their investment and involvement with Aliens: Colonial Marines. Read what's in those marketing docs.

If a guy like that is making games, I have good faith in Anita to be able to do it and make the games that the market would be willing to buy.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

You're right that i should have clarified. But the fact is that the sequence of events which led to the current state of affairs both start and end with her. Also, it's not an attack. It's an honest assessment of how to move forward and stop flinging shit at each other.

But why? What was so controversial about her innocuous video series?

 

[bootski]

Well I'll be damned. I wont entertain watching the other two videos then.

umm it's not that there is zero truth it's that it's presented with a bias. she was fully against the TFYC group and posted quite a number of very insulting tweets their way, belittling their organization and driving enough traffic to their website to shut it down, which she was quite pleased about, according to her tweets.

her associate doxxed the person behind TFYC with no input from zoe.

edit: and to say there's zero truth with regards to zoe's involvment with TFYC is to be as disingenuous as internetaristocrat is being in his videos.

 

[Ponn]

Just so we're clear, I personally have no vested interest in either protecting or shaming the term "gamer."

Honest question then because I see this popping up alot, especially from those that say :Gamers: should stop being offended and upset at these articles generalizations, inflammatory tones if they aren't one of the bad ones.

Is that a fair position to be telling others they shouldn't be upset or their concerns are invalid?

 

[Cyrano]

The thing is, she kinda isn't.

What she's doing is applying basic literary criticism to games. Nothing more. Literally nothing more. Have you seen her videos?

I teach introductory critical theory in university. Feminist and gender theory is something we do in first year. Because it is essential and insightful. And you know what? We actually go much further than Anita does in her videos.

I think Anita is actually very gentle and thoughtful in her analysis. And not in any way radical. Really. This is just what actual criticism looks like.

Yeah, I feel pretty much the same way. It's basic stuff, but it's spot on. It is somewhat shocking the amount of vitriol she receives for such criticism. If this is the reaction for something as straightforward as Anita's videos, I shudder to think of the response a deeper criticism of the media might engender. Maybe the waters will have cleared by then. I hope.

 

[E92 M3]

They should be about fun and escapism and I wish gaming was more inclusive and didn't make any groups of people feel that it isn't 'for them' as a result. I remain optimistic that it can continue to move in the right direction towards that... but I know that it doesn't move by itself, and that acting like it will, or like there isn't anything that needs fixing, isn't going to help anything.

They were about furthering agendas back then too. Less people knew about them is the only difference.

Still, these are growing pains. If the industry has any hope of remaining relevant, it must become more inclusive.

I always thought gaming was exclusive. Maybe I'm ignorant, but if you like video games you play them? My sister at college doesn't play video games, but she loves Sonic and some other games because we grew up together and she watched me play. Some girls like games, some don't. With that said, I don't believe in creating a medium that purposely focuses on catering to everyone. Let the medium stay true to itself and the people that enjoy it will gravitate to it. I feel that if a women wants to work in the industry she can.

Even a lot of that was stupid. Remember all of the "PC master race" comments thrown around at console gaming? They still are thrown around.

But I'd rather take that stupidity than trying to decipher what agendas people who critique games on Youtube or Games Journalism or any of that sort, and I like Anita's more recent critiques.

Besides, I would hope to think most people would understand gaming journalism is simply fancy marketing material from different publishers. When Nintendo Power was around, it was hard to find objectivity in anything that magazine offered.

Exactly, I'd rather take stupidity on that nature rather than figuring out who belongs to which political/social circle.

I can completely understand frustration with the current tone of the conversation, but I think a post like this also misses the point. There's certainly a place to discuss social issues as they relate to gaming. However, there's no reason for it to have exploded in this fashion to reach the current levels of controversy as they relate to whatever the fuck this whole current mess is even about.

But the takeaway -- for me at least -- is not "we should have just kept at talking about games as fun and ignored needless forays into talks of representation." Because that's certainly not what I'm advocating. And I say that as someone who is frankly fed up with reaction after reaction to Zoe Post/#GamerGate/#NotYourShield/whatever else.

Yes, ultimately, I am also fed up - and the same reason I am investigating what all of the hoopla is about (only clicked on the thread because I like Boogie).

 

[SparkPeople]

I am not remotely afraid of what bigots think of me.

Neither am I, but I am afraid of losing my job and having my private information publicly available.

the status quo is being kept because it is beneficial to one side, and the only people being harassed to the point where they are leaving the industry entirely are the ones who want change. more specifically, the women who want change, because they are far more prone to be harassed in worse ways.

I disagree with this. The status quo is being kept because it's near impossible to enter this argument peacefully, and because both sides carry an extremely loud and dedicate minority.

For the same reason anyone researches anything. They see trends and they think they merit further inspection.

No one wants to be told that, but if there are negative trends, they shouldn't be immune to criticism. And what are these judgements you're making on her observations? Pointing out that the typified role of women in games is rife with caricature and objectification isn't an abstract criticism, it's plainly visible to anyone that cares to poke their head out of the sand.

And someone who makes a video series that researches and identifies clear examples and trends is engaging in the polar opposite of "baseless attacks." You can take issue with her tone and pick at the relevance of smaller examples within her arguments, but if you take issue with the larger thesis of "Videogames have a pretty bad track record with positive female representation and naturalistic female portrayals," then you're just being willfully obtuse. She's not putting a gun to your head to concede that it comes from some wicked shadow government of misogynistic malfeasance, just to realize that an industry whose output is overwhelmingly delivered by men *might* be a little out of touch with its femininity, and urge a little introspection on that point.

I never said I disagree with her, but I disagree with her methods. Anyone can do research, and do it endlessly, but without action there is no change.

 

[plagiarize]

(I'm double replying because I didn't see your edit, gonna go edit my other post out after this)

I'm not trying to be one of those assholes (quite the contrary, I'm trying to ascertain an understanding myself), so I'm curious, how would you describe yourself in the terms of the argument here and what 'side' (if we have to be on a side, anyway) would you be on? (Neutral is an option as long as you support it!)

So... I believe that gaming's issue is that its depictions of women and minorities is very very limited in the types of characters we get in gaming, and what I personally think is harmful isn't so much a specific type of character but their over representation.

Like I don't want to ban skinny models in magazines, but we know that if everyone in magazines is skinny that it has a harmful effect. Women and minorities in games fall into way too few categories.

If a story calls for a female character that dresses up in slutty outfits... that's okay... but only if everyone else isn't also writing stories about slutty females. Maybe you should ship a different product if that's the case... because when there is too much of something to the point that it's detrimental, if you make another one, then you're adding to that problem.

Generally as a result I agree with the feminists on these issues. Not uniformly, but generally.

I want to see better developed and better written female and minority (and male too!) characters in gaming. I think making games that don't turn women away will make for better games overall.

Role models matter. The general public perception of a group matters. To people within that group and to people outside it.

So my side... I love gaming and I think it can be better. I love the gaming community. I think we can be better.

Genre TV didn't have to transform into something that pushed guys away to appeal to more women. Neither does gaming.

People arguing for the status quo... however logical their reason for doing so, are indirectly helping make bigots feel at home here, and I think it's very easy to do something about that.

If people truly believe we can't do anything, then they won't mind me still trying or encouraging other people to try to make things better too.

 

[Superflat]

For many people who are "not choosing a side", it's likely that it's just confusing as fuck.

Seemingly supportable hashtags are revealed to be made by 4chan "so it's for misogynists by misogynists!", some hashtags are jokes that are being taken literally (#gamerin4words), and the number of people asking "what the hell is this, can I get a summary" just tells me that this is incredibly insular and more of a closed off civil war than something hitting mainstream. If a major news outlet gets wind of this I fear it will just be another "look at those gamers, squabbling amongst each other because they want to keep murdering hookers in video games" fluff piece.

I'm willing to bet the majority are for change. I don't think most of us wouldn't be opposed to a more fair representation of the sexes in video games, to diversify the AAA portfolio, and have more points of view in the mix. But what are the conditions for the proposed change? What are the means in which we make our way towards that change? I don't want to shame people out of existence or promoting bullying tactics, effectively becoming what they fought against, only this time for the "right reasons". I don't want to use political hashtags that marginalize and create sensational headlines with obtuse of deceiving headlines that generate more controversy and drag more people into the fire because it gets misinterpreted.

I want to feel like there is a voice I can get behind and support in full, instead of feeling like "well, this one is ultimately doing more of what I want, even if the representatives are doing it in a way I disagree with", like I'm choosing the lesser of two evils.

In the end I think at the least the video game industry is going to look at this debacle and take away some of the good lessons that lie beneath the layers of crap, and be more sensitive about these issues overall. Hell, we saw it going in this direction over a year ago. There were criticisms before this whole thing blew up, and the industry started listening back then. This is the boiling point where everything just seems stupid, but I think the industry is going towards a better place.

 

[FF Seraphim]

This was addressed earlier: How do you propose we get the assholes to 'cut that shit out' and how do they stop them from returning?

You cannot and you won't since it literally is impossible.
However, what we can do as "gamers" is keep showing that the majority are good people. Let the assholes yell all they want, we can just point to different charities and activities we are doing to show that we want social progress. Best way to do it is to keep calm when talking about the issues.