Whenever anyone points out that a piece of media is problematic, someone always says 'well, why don't you fund/make a game then'. It's a lazy argument to make. As it stands Anita is making a valid and worthwhile contribution already with her videos. She's providing a critique that is important but overlooked. Give her some credit and stop asking her to take on more responsibilities.
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Boogie2988: I Am NOT A Bigot. Are You?
- Thread starter HUELEN10
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Whenever anyone points out that a piece of media is problematic, someone always says 'well, why don't you fund/make a game then'. It's a lazy argument to make. As it stands Anita is making a valid and worthwhile contribution already with her videos. She's providing a critique that is important but overlooked. Give her some credit and stop asking her to take on more responsibilities.
what about a woman and/or person of color who maybe would find it fun to be better represented in the games they play, maybe a black woman would like to play as someone who looked like them more often, or more characters like them to have some agency, what about their fun
the good old days are often not good for all of us
"furthering agendas for different groups" the agenda of a more diverse representation of women in video games, people are talking about that on the internet? how horrifying, must be a real bummer for ya
plutoknight
Member
If you think this kind of thing started with Anita, you're wrong. This has been an issue in gaming for a long, long time, and it's only now that women are trying to speak out about it. Remember the #GirlGamer movement from a few years ago, or the Jennifer Hepler/Hamburger Hepler incident? I'm sure you could go further back than that.
(I guess, more accurately, you could say "Anita was one of the first females to try to change the tide", but gamers being overly violent towards females in the industry is NOT a new problem)
ab.aeterno
Member
What? My point is that simply saying "I don't agree with bigoted assholes and they aren't welcome" is a nice but empty sentiment that doesn't address the root problem. So instead of doing that, as that's the extent most people seem to go to in cases where harassment is surfaced and criticism of the community comes up (I.e. the very omnipresent "But not all gamers are assholes, I believe in equality, they don't represent me!"), how about helping solve the issue by supporting the people who are harassed and made to help unwelcome? Because that's not happening, not nearly enough.
It's like, as I'm being beaten up, people stand around and watch and talk about how they don't support that person, he doesn't represent them. OK, fucking awesome, now how about you help me and tell this person to stop?
I don't need people telling me they don't agree with homophobic people in the community or that they're not represented by them, I need to not have a god damn deafening lack of support happen when people say or do homophobic shit to me.
this thread (ostensibly) isn't really about feminism issues, zoe quinn, or anita sarkeesian's videos. there have been several metaphorical articles written about "the death of gamers" which have basically been about the expansion of the gaming audience, explaining that developers don't need to cater solely to the traditional demographics (which are primarily male). some have speculated that we are reaching the point where "gamer" is a useless term since basically everyone plays games of some kind, and "gamers" tend to imply that some games are more "valid" than others in an attempt to hold onto some kind of authoritative position in the market.
these articles triggered a huge backlash in that particular group, who as far as i can tell either don't understand the real gist of their points or do understand them and are attacking them under false pretenses.
what it has turned into is general shit-slinging and confusion, in which the most vulnerable people are hurt the most and driven from the playing field. so far several female writers and developers have announced that they're leaving the industry as a result of the constant harassment they've received. this is, as far as i can tell, the only real result that has come from any of this.
It is definitely correct to say that under-representation of minorities and objectification of women isn't an issue limited to video games (I do think, however, that gaming culture is on the whole unfortunately proving to be rather more misogynistic than, say, the movie or music community). However, the fact that social inequality is a broader issue doesn't mean that video games get a free pass; creative licence doesn't mean that a developer is exempt from criticism, and it also doesn't mean that their work is shielded from perpetuating/normalising standards of inequality.
I'm reminded of a quote by Australia's Lieutenant General David Morrison - it came from a speech about the abuse and harassment of women in the military, and it's something that resonates with me much more generally:
"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept."
More generally, as consumers, it's up to us to speak out about what we wish to see. In the end, social media is a part of humanity's collective consciousness, a reflection of ourselves. It's useful to be able to apply a critical lens to any form of entertainment or social medium, whether it is a video game, a book or a movie.
In that sense, what Anita Sarkeesian's video series was doing is essentially no different from what any English teacher, student of literature, or movie critic does. One could argue that she puts her case poorly or that they could have been done in a better way that's legitimate feedback that could be agreed or disagreed with, and debated civilly. That, however, doesn't mean the basic idea of the videos (ie. pointing out sexist tropes in the video game media) was bad. We need as much discussion on this as we can possibly get, and to that end, at least, she's had some measure of success. For instance, the Bioshock 2 developer team had this to say:
It's also up to us as decent human beings to speak up against harassment and sexism when it crops up. The level of abuse and vitriol that has been aimed at people for speaking their minds about unequal representation, or journalists who have recently quit their jobs under the weight of the harassment, under the guise of fighting "corruption" and censorship is...breathtakingly awful.
Incidentally, I'm saying all of this as someone for whom video games have been a source of escapism and joy for many, many years. Some of my fondest early memories stem from playing games on the SNES and Sega Megadrive. I'm still able to derive enjoyment from games, even while critiquing them and pointing out where, in general, they could be improved.
StreetsAhead
Member
Me too. The criticism she's applying isn't all that complex, tbh. I mean, she generally delivers it well, but it's nothing compared to what I've read about film or literature.
cpp_is_king
Member
I don't really want to touch that one. I'm not entirely on her side, but i respect her views and her ability to stand behind what she believes in.
But you even said yourself on a previous page, that you're getting tired. So am i. I think alot of people feel that way too. At this point i just want to advance past shit flinging and either have the whole thing disappear, or have movement in the other direction. What i proposed was the best way i can think of to get movement in the other direction.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
How do you propose I do this? By voicing my opinion and supporting minority developers and games with minority protagonists? Because I already do this, and can still point out other bad behavior from people who I agree with when I think they're being rude or unreasonable.
plagiarize
Banned
Right. I think things are improving too. I think they'll continue too as well. I think that's why we're seeing more anger right now. Raging against the slow march of progress. That's just my opinion though.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
This whole situation feels like it's coming down to gamer vs. "gamer".
DoktorEvil
Banned
This thread is now going from the label gamer... to communist leanings with respect to capitalism...
I'm out.
SparkPeople
Banned
You should look up the amount of movies with a black male lead that isn't Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, Idris Alba, or Denzel Washington.
Also look up the number of interracial pairings in movies. Specifically Black-white vs Black-Latino.
Media hasn't moved past it's old racist and sexist roots. Sanitized pieces are relased every once in a while, but when money is on the line they'll always revert back to the standards of the 1950s.
Can I be honest with everyone here? I hadn't seen a single FF video until yesterday. I'm even more saddened and appalled by the reaction to it now than I was before. As someone else said "It's like feminism with training wheels." Why is this so divisive? If anything the reaction should be asking developers why they rely on the easiest and simplest solutions when it comes to game design and story.
Yeah, but I genuinely think it's only going to get better and more.
I think a lot of this ordeal is just a small set of people vehemently fighting against the medium growing up. The funny/sad thing is that they are pretty much fighting a losing battle. It's a shame that these women's lives are actually adversely affected by these juvenile shitheads being juvenile shitheads. The thing they don't get is that she (and other critics) are actually showing games as a medium an incedible amount of respect. Which is really funny if you think about it.
It's hard to stay optimistic against this tidal wave of shit, but hey...
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I watched my first Women vs. Tropes video yesterday. It was quite a nice bit of criticism. Nothing mind blowing.
I'm still trying to work out why people find them controversial.
I'm still trying to work out why people find them controversial.
You are trying to tie in an gender equality issue, that is part of larger society as a whole, to small subset of society - gamers.
Why? Why not talk about women and minority representation in movies? Where women are paid 2x-5x less than male actors? Why not talk about gender and minority representation in car and technology industries - I have been following cars for 30+ years and I have yet to date seen 2 female head engineers? Why are all of the engineers in large companies mostly male?
As I said, this is much larger issue than gaming and in fact has little to do with gaming at all. If anything, gaming and software industries as a whole are least discriminate of them all. I am not talking about end product but of actual people working on these projects.
Ok, what in the world does this even mean? The medium needs to "stay true to itself"? You're personifying gaming, or making it into a monolith, neither of which is healthy. It's not a strange immutable rock nor an individual speaking down on high. Gaming is made up of people and having more people included in a media allows for more ideas and creativity. You make it sound like gaming is a religion.
I feel like I'm being trolled. Is there a cult I'm unaware of?
plutoknight
Member
Exactly. Targeting the assholes just...continues the asshole train, so to speak. We need to drown their voices out and muffle them, not hunt them like prey.
Several people in the thread want to hunt them, however. And that's a huge fallacy, IMO.
To be honest, even if her videos were total nonsense, the kind of hate she's attracting... That shouldn't be happening and as someone who considers himself a gamer I'm suddenly ashamed to be grouped with a bunch of vocal bigots. There are tons of idiotic gaming videos on YouTube, so yeah, it is telling that her stuff is being particularly targeted.
I do believe these idiots are a very vocal minority, I have lots of "gamer" friends and we're most definitely not a bunch of bigots by any means. So yes, this situation is tiring (and to be honest I just avoid it) but it's tiring because of the idiots acting like psychopaths because they don't agree with a YouTube video.
plagiarize
Banned
Summer blockbusters are definitely an area that still needs a lot of improvement.
Marvel haven't yet green lit the Black Widow movie why?
But again, that doesn't exonerate us when we aren't the best community. The better communities demonstrate that we could be doing better to not make women and minorities feel unwelcomed.
i agree with this but i don't think it's any kind of excuse for the game industry. this is our community and our responsibility, we should be making things better here and setting a positive example for other fields of entertainment.
yeah that makes sense, just look at all the problems in the world that were solved by doing nothing and relying on everything working itself out
what is the medium staying true to itself? in what way would a more diverse representation of women and minorities not be true to gaming?
http://leighalexander.net/but-what-can-be-done-dos-and-donts-to-combat-online-sexism/
That's actually a pretty good place to start.
Other than that... I think you're on a good track there.
Alexander's article (and others) attacking the word "gamers" miss the point. The point is not that "gamers" are all terrible human beings. the point is that "gamers" includes a subset of terrible human beings, who are often given passive cover by a much larger group that identify as "gamers".
Passive cover involves anything from ignoring them when they're online being misogynist, racist, douchebags to attempting to redirect every inclusion thread into a thread about themselves. Both of these are behaviors we see regularly on GAF. Multiple people in this very thread have said, "It's not my problem."
Well, yes it is if you take issue with the culture at large thinking we're all giant douchebags. All movements and groups contain offensive elements. How we deal with those elements often shows us what sort of group we're looking at. Do we embrace them? Do we pretend they aren't there, because it makes us uncomfortable to be associated with them? Do we call them out when they step outside the line?
Part of culture is creating acceptable social mores for groups. It's not that gamers are all terrible people -- I clearly don't believe that, given I've been a gamer for 35 years, moderate a gaming board, and have a ton of gamer friends -- it's that gamers don't do anything about the terrible people in their community, which makes it appear to outsiders that we approve.
A gedankenexperiment: On GAF, if someone starts a thread about how all Asian people are actually fifth columnists from China, what would you expect? If moderators left it up and no one got banned, what conclusion would you draw about GAF and the moderators? Many people would draw the conclusion that either we agree with the thread maker, or at least we don't find anything wrong with what he's saying, otherwise we would act upon it.
And that's what's happening here. Gamers's unwillingness to stand up to the extremists within their community makes it appear to people that we approve, or at least don't disapprove, of their actions. It allows shitbags to use the rest of us for cover. I'm not sure why so many people are upset about Alexander's attack on gamers, when the attacks of these people, the ones who threaten to kill in our names, are often ignored, or treated as the price of being involved in the industry.
When gamers routinely shut down these dickholes, gamers will start to be seen as something other than these dillholes. When someone's wife can get online to play a game without someone calling her a slut, or a whore, or weirdly a nigger or faggot, then people outside the industry may stop seeing gamers as misogynistic, racist, scum.
I hope people understand and act on this, rather than allowing themselves to get their feelings hurt over some journalists that swung too wide.
Passive cover involves anything from ignoring them when they're online being misogynist, racist, douchebags to attempting to redirect every inclusion thread into a thread about themselves. Both of these are behaviors we see regularly on GAF. Multiple people in this very thread have said, "It's not my problem."
Well, yes it is if you take issue with the culture at large thinking we're all giant douchebags. All movements and groups contain offensive elements. How we deal with those elements often shows us what sort of group we're looking at. Do we embrace them? Do we pretend they aren't there, because it makes us uncomfortable to be associated with them? Do we call them out when they step outside the line?
Part of culture is creating acceptable social mores for groups. It's not that gamers are all terrible people -- I clearly don't believe that, given I've been a gamer for 35 years, moderate a gaming board, and have a ton of gamer friends -- it's that gamers don't do anything about the terrible people in their community, which makes it appear to outsiders that we approve.
A gedankenexperiment: On GAF, if someone starts a thread about how all Asian people are actually fifth columnists from China, what would you expect? If moderators left it up and no one got banned, what conclusion would you draw about GAF and the moderators? Many people would draw the conclusion that either we agree with the thread maker, or at least we don't find anything wrong with what he's saying, otherwise we would act upon it.
And that's what's happening here. Gamers's unwillingness to stand up to the extremists within their community makes it appear to people that we approve, or at least don't disapprove, of their actions. It allows shitbags to use the rest of us for cover. I'm not sure why so many people are upset about Alexander's attack on gamers, when the attacks of these people, the ones who threaten to kill in our names, are often ignored, or treated as the price of being involved in the industry.
When gamers routinely shut down these dickholes, gamers will start to be seen as something other than these dillholes. When someone's wife can get online to play a game without someone calling her a slut, or a whore, or weirdly a nigger or faggot, then people outside the industry may stop seeing gamers as misogynistic, racist, scum.
I hope people understand and act on this, rather than allowing themselves to get their feelings hurt over some journalists that swung too wide.
Dude, you attack her for pushing division and exclusion. An utterly absurd, unrelated attack which is completely off the mark. You furthermore attacked her for doing nothing but talking. That is why she was paid to begin with. Thats why so many support/ed her. To adress an issue. To speak out. And you have obviously a problem with that.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I think it's important to try and keep things straight. No matter which side you are on, I think a lot of times, individuals can be conflated as representing a movement. And when this happens, it makes general conversation very difficult. For instance, I'm not even sure I understand where "gamers" are being insulted. What piece do I need to read to get fired up at the notion that the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater? Some Leigh Alexander piece? Is this even what's happened?
I'm honestly not sure and really don't care anyway to be blunt. But even if I have an honest gripe, in this instance I think my criticism is better served being levied directly at Leigh Alexander. Are "gamers" really even under attack.
Mind you, I'm sure there's more and that I need to get up to speed on all the players and there's probably a video or article I can watch, but... ugh. I just.... blegh...
Majukun
Member
well it's not actually that lazy as an argument..
i mean,minorities and women don't get as much attention as the generic "white 25-something year old male" because publishers don't think they are a market worth exploring.
basically they don't get more representation for the same reason we didn't get good space simulators for years and years on pc..the industry didn't though there was a market for that (and they were wrong)
if you want to move something in the videogame industry..in any industry actually,you have to talk with money,either giving enough or not giving at all.
Again, I just think it's a good idea. At no point has she been denied credit(not by me anyway), in fact the OP of this particular conversation we are having did in fact give her credit. Never suggested she had to do it. It's just I've seen/heard from a number of people working within game development either first or second hand that people who want change should either get into game development themselves or don't deny a game's artistic vision. Both are not great responses to the situation, clearly but if many are seemingly unwillingly. I think it could really help for a prominent figure like her(not the only one but since we're talking about her in particular) to do just that.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
At least, black people are still represented in Hollywood. Good luck to the other minorities - they're invisible.
I know how you feel.
I personally feel jaded by the whole event. While gaming is my core hobby and I have a vested interest in it. Attempting to follow this shit show has been impossible. There has been so much shit slinging about a hashtag with no literal clear goal. All I can see is raw, burned out press and developers who are sick to death with the near endless character attacks. With the few brave enough to battle the flames, finding themselves consumed and walk away from the situation with the morons declaring another moral victory. And for what? Who?
Take the label gamer. Burn it to the ground for all I care. Jesus, I feel like Tommy Lee Jones character at the end of No Country For Old Men.
plagiarize
Banned
I want them to know in no uncertain terms that gaming communities are not the place to publicly air their misogyny. I choose to do that by simply telling them exactly what I think of people like them.
Point was not economic in the sense, but that people within a group are fighting against one another, when the ones in power are the one primarily responsible for letting the problem root and fester and be cultivated.
ab.aeterno
Member
It's not about solving this 100%, that's obviously impossible and no one that I've seen is asking for that. It's about changing the atmosphere of the community. The bigotry in this community thrives because people let it. It's not like this is some new problem or that it's gotten worse, it's just gotten more visible, more transparent, and more immediate through social media.
It happens so often because the people who do it feel they are free to. The atmosphere is one that seemingly either condones it or at least doesn't actively and aggressively discourage it. How many times on voice chat do you think people get called out for saying horrible shit, versus not? It creates a feeling that it's OK because no one is saying not to.
So what do you do? Speak up. Minorities will always lose the numbers game; our voice alone isn't enough. The victim's voice isn't enough. When someone says something awful on voice chat, you can them out. When someone writes something, or whatever, speak up when it happens. Every time no one does, it implicitly condones it, says it's OK to do. We need allies who don't just sit on the sidelines saying how awful that person is after the fact and how Not All Gamers.
Edit:
See above. When I'm made to feel harassed or unwelcome, I don't need to be told our down gamers are usually fine people, I already know that. I don't need to see charities. I need people to stand up with and for me when I get called a faggot and made to feel like this isn't my hobby.
What does this even mean? And if creators themselves want to cater to or include other groups?
Oh I definitely agree, minorities are woefully underrepresented in Hollywood, and there are many lazy, sexist/racist tropes that are perpetuated in film and TV.
I do get the feeling though that the online community for video gaming seems to have particularly bad issues with sexism - the pushback and vitriol that we've been witnessing in response to basic criticism of sexist cliches is absurd.
Summer blockbusters? What?
I have looked through top 15 movies on box office mojo... out of 15, only 3 have female leads. Out of those 3, 2 follow sexist/bigonist views how woman is a lead only in a romance movie or where where she is a sex object.
So, why not promote same ideals in movie community? Why not push for more realistic/current view of women? More minorities as leads? More women as leads but not sex objects?
You dont see that these issues are not related to "community" but society as a whole?
SocksForWoks
Banned
I don't even remember the brothel part in Bioshock 2 and I platinumed that game on PS3.
Too obscure
Too obscure
cpp_is_king
Member
The only one absurd here is you. Constructive criticism =/= attack. I find this back and forth highly ironic though, since presumably you feel that Anita is offering constructive criticism to the industry, and presumably some gamers in the industry feel as though they're being attacked.
You really need to check your head, or step away from shit covered keyboard and get some fresh air if you think im attacking anyone.
I think what might help, (I dont know, maybe I am crazy) would be separating debate topics(with controversial issues) to awareness topics. Seems so many times with serious issues you have people wanting to spread awareness for good reasons and then(like always) you have the people who want to argue or debate, cause well, it is the internet.
So, for instance:
Anita Video(Awareness) Topic: How can we do a better job of fostering better representation in games(and the industry)
In this topic you dont get to argue why you think her video's suck and shouldnt be a thing, you get to discuss how to improve representation(staying on topic) of women, full-stop.
Anita Video(Debate): How would you construct narrative criticism of sex in video games
Point of this topic would be to allow the release valve of the masses wanting to argue about the semantics and reasoning behind her video. However if you make people back up all definitive statements in this topic, I think, it would force people to be more thoughtful in approach and at the same time turn down the amount of people willing to argue or drive by shit post with "She is dumb her arguments are dumb and there is no such thing as sexism in gaming, it is all artistic integrity".
Make people who use definitive statements to back up their claim and be strict about it.
Example A: There isn't an issue with sexism in game design or the community.
Well, unless you can definitively prove that sexism isn't an issue in game design or in the game community, you do not get to make this claim, without bringing factual evidence that it is in fact not a problem
Example B: I believe the game community has a higher % of social issues compared to (insert culture/consumer hobby here).
This is fine, however, if you make this claim you must use factual evidence to support the claim that the "gamer"/community has a higher % of bigots.
All non-definitive statements are not or should not subject to these standards, but must not be labeled as definitive(you should not have to label an opinion as IMO, as long as you dont try and infer a definitive statement) and they all must be argued in good faith of discourse ethics. Dont follow the rules, bam, banned.
Example of using a subjective opinion to make a definitive statement: "When it rains the streets get wet, the streets are wet, therefor it rained."(In order to have sexual misconduct you need sex, zoe had sex, therefore sexual misconduct) I think that type of mindset when arguing is being dishonest and only breeds more toxicity and shouldn't be tolerated.
I think bringing in some discourse ethics into game forums in general would be a good start on cleaning up the message(and allowing topics like anita's to not drown in debate). Too many drive by remarks not substantiated by anything other then sentiment(like the Zoegate stuff) is being used to try and be passed off as facts of evidence, when most of it isn't supported by facts of evidence. All this does, imo, is breed a toxic environment where nothing can be discussed because people are more concerned with winning an argument, then actually discussing anything.
So, for instance:
Anita Video(Awareness) Topic: How can we do a better job of fostering better representation in games(and the industry)
In this topic you dont get to argue why you think her video's suck and shouldnt be a thing, you get to discuss how to improve representation(staying on topic) of women, full-stop.
Anita Video(Debate): How would you construct narrative criticism of sex in video games
Point of this topic would be to allow the release valve of the masses wanting to argue about the semantics and reasoning behind her video. However if you make people back up all definitive statements in this topic, I think, it would force people to be more thoughtful in approach and at the same time turn down the amount of people willing to argue or drive by shit post with "She is dumb her arguments are dumb and there is no such thing as sexism in gaming, it is all artistic integrity".
Make people who use definitive statements to back up their claim and be strict about it.
Example A: There isn't an issue with sexism in game design or the community.
Well, unless you can definitively prove that sexism isn't an issue in game design or in the game community, you do not get to make this claim, without bringing factual evidence that it is in fact not a problem
Example B: I believe the game community has a higher % of social issues compared to (insert culture/consumer hobby here).
This is fine, however, if you make this claim you must use factual evidence to support the claim that the "gamer"/community has a higher % of bigots.
All non-definitive statements are not or should not subject to these standards, but must not be labeled as definitive(you should not have to label an opinion as IMO, as long as you dont try and infer a definitive statement) and they all must be argued in good faith of discourse ethics. Dont follow the rules, bam, banned.
Example of using a subjective opinion to make a definitive statement: "When it rains the streets get wet, the streets are wet, therefor it rained."(In order to have sexual misconduct you need sex, zoe had sex, therefore sexual misconduct) I think that type of mindset when arguing is being dishonest and only breeds more toxicity and shouldn't be tolerated.
I think bringing in some discourse ethics into game forums in general would be a good start on cleaning up the message(and allowing topics like anita's to not drown in debate). Too many drive by remarks not substantiated by anything other then sentiment(like the Zoegate stuff) is being used to try and be passed off as facts of evidence, when most of it isn't supported by facts of evidence. All this does, imo, is breed a toxic environment where nothing can be discussed because people are more concerned with winning an argument, then actually discussing anything.
plagiarize
Banned
how many women are going to want to play online games or take part in gaming communities if we the gaming community stand by as they're insulted every time they do? we can't resolve things single handedly, but we can do something to contribute.
Except, as I and others in this thread have already pointed out, Anita's videos are having an effect on developers and hopefully that will be reflected in the games produced.
flatearthpandas
Member
Should have guessed this thread would turn into a shitpile.
I thought the video was fine. He's obviously responding to overzealous, ridiculous articles like Leigh Alexander's. It should be pretty obvious when the gaming media goes on a general rampage calling "gamers" pieces of shit that people who identify with that label aren't going to like it, no matter what some internet dirtbags have done.
I'm mostly just shaking my head at all this drama and politics over labels. People seem to think that if they can attack and create labels, somehow it will fix things. My biggest complaint with the internet "Social Justice Warriors" is their futility. It honestly makes me upset seeing all of this energy wasted towards not fixing the problems they claim to be mad about and that I would love to see actually fixed. Attacking the term "gamer" doesn't separate the shitheels from anyone else. Changing the term doesn't make them go away. Calling everyone collectively a dirtbag doesn't make the actual dirtbags go away.
This isn't how you fix a problem.
This is how you feel good about yourself online by attacking and arguing with people who want the same problems fixed that you do.
This is what gaming media looks like right now.
I thought the video was fine. He's obviously responding to overzealous, ridiculous articles like Leigh Alexander's. It should be pretty obvious when the gaming media goes on a general rampage calling "gamers" pieces of shit that people who identify with that label aren't going to like it, no matter what some internet dirtbags have done.
I'm mostly just shaking my head at all this drama and politics over labels. People seem to think that if they can attack and create labels, somehow it will fix things. My biggest complaint with the internet "Social Justice Warriors" is their futility. It honestly makes me upset seeing all of this energy wasted towards not fixing the problems they claim to be mad about and that I would love to see actually fixed. Attacking the term "gamer" doesn't separate the shitheels from anyone else. Changing the term doesn't make them go away. Calling everyone collectively a dirtbag doesn't make the actual dirtbags go away.
This isn't how you fix a problem.
This is how you feel good about yourself online by attacking and arguing with people who want the same problems fixed that you do.
This is what gaming media looks like right now.
I think the reactions had more to do with sparking a conversation that many people never gave much thought into. I believe a lot of the reactions were done without much thought put behind them and then the narrative seems to have turned into an us vs them type thing and that hasn't helped things at all. For some reason people feel threatened and I can't figure out why at all. I've seen many who become instantly defensive and then overly sarcastic and dismissive.
plutoknight
Member
Good answer. Like I said some number of pages back, violence doesn't solve violence. We need to overpower the negativity, not kill it.
An excellent post, too. We need to create works - videos, games, articles, etc. -- that help our cause, instead of hunting those who hurt it. (And an apology to you if I offended you; I'm trying to be level-headed while still arguing that change needs to happen).
The push in the movie community is there. And not even the defenders of the status quo there would go as low as "but, but misogyny in videogames".
This shouldn't be so hard. I'm a man. I'm also straight, white and have kids. I've also been a feminist all my life. I'm also a gamer. I understand that women are being oppressed. I understand that there's a male structure that oppresses women. I also understand that Im part of this structure. This means that Im perfectly ok with someone saying:
Men oppress women.
Because its true, because men as a structure and in general oppress women. I recognize fully that Im part of this structure, so I try to personally take all actions I can to changing this in my personal life and with others I meet. I try to tell them when theyre stupid. Men often are, tbh.
But Im a gamer too. I love gaming. And Im also ok with someone saying this:
Gamers are misogynist.
Because its true, because gamers as a structure and in general are. So again I dont take any offense by hearing this. I also recognize that Im part of that structure, so I try to post silly posts like this, buy games that are progressive, and make sure my kid plays things that arent offensive.
I honestly think its my duty to do these things, in order to make the world a bit nicer for my own kids. Its also a matter of.. (sorry, english is not my first language) interpretive prerogative. (or is it preferential right of interpretation?) This means that I let the people who actually are hurt by something, interpret how they are hurt themselves. I do not think I should tell them how they feel, and I dont think I should hijack their discussions to make them about me. Im not really important here, the larger structures are, and I will do what I can to change them.
Hope that makes sense?
Men oppress women.
Because its true, because men as a structure and in general oppress women. I recognize fully that Im part of this structure, so I try to personally take all actions I can to changing this in my personal life and with others I meet. I try to tell them when theyre stupid. Men often are, tbh.
But Im a gamer too. I love gaming. And Im also ok with someone saying this:
Gamers are misogynist.
Because its true, because gamers as a structure and in general are. So again I dont take any offense by hearing this. I also recognize that Im part of that structure, so I try to post silly posts like this, buy games that are progressive, and make sure my kid plays things that arent offensive.
I honestly think its my duty to do these things, in order to make the world a bit nicer for my own kids. Its also a matter of.. (sorry, english is not my first language) interpretive prerogative. (or is it preferential right of interpretation?) This means that I let the people who actually are hurt by something, interpret how they are hurt themselves. I do not think I should tell them how they feel, and I dont think I should hijack their discussions to make them about me. Im not really important here, the larger structures are, and I will do what I can to change them.
Hope that makes sense?
thesolidshark
Member
I'm glad Boogie got some sleep instead of trying to keep up with this thread.
Bingo.
This is what it's all about. At the same time be positive. Tell people their work is meaningful. When you are confronted with a tidal wave of shit, people having your back saying they appreciate what you do is what gets you through.
Palette Swap
Member
Sorry for the content light post but this really deserves a slow clap.