#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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It's a shame that we literally needed irrefutable proof from the organizers of #Gamergate that the whole movement was about harassment, stalking, abuse, and blatant misogyny

The second I saw people citing a Kotaku article from fucking 4 years ago and that a lot of the Twitter accounts weren't brand new, but had barely tweeted at all beforehand, made it very clear that someone was backchanneling/co-opting a bit.

Seriously, who would use that Wardell as a thing about corruption? That was literally the worst situation to use, considering that situation was about a sexual harassment lawsuit in the first place. Not only that, Kotaku sat on it for 24 hours waiting for his comment, and posted his madman rant from Quarter To Three on the article after he posted it there.
 
It's a shame that we literally needed irrefutable proof from the organizers of #Gamergate that the whole movement was about harassment, stalking, abuse, and blatant misogyny

And yet if you go on twitter right now there are #GamerGate supporters claiming that the IRC screencaps must be fake!

They're the people who think that 'harassment is totally wrong' while arguing that all women in gaming are fabricating their abuse.
 
And yet if you go on twitter right now there are #GamerGate supporters claiming that the IRC screencaps must be fake!

They're the people who 'think harassment is totally wrong' but just think that all women in gaming are just making it up.

"Harassment is wrong, but at least it has literally never occurred to women in gaming!"
 
It's the dawn of a new day. A day where a whole bunch of disheartened, saddened female writers go online and unanimously drop their jaws to the floors.
 
I'm not blaming them, I'm laughing at the situation.

I've gotten my own nose busted over poorly-advised self-righteousness in my time. It's kind of gratifying knowing I'm not singular in my stupidity.

You're laughing at a situation that involves people leaving their homes and jobs for fear of attack and harassment?
 
And yet if you go on twitter right now there are #GamerGate supporters claiming that the IRC screencaps must be fake!

They're the people who think that 'harassment is totally wrong' while arguing that all women in gaming are fabricating their abuse.

I laugh and groan every time one of these incredibly "critical" people doubting the legitimacy of the screencaps has that obnoxious "vivian james" character as an avatar.

I've gotten my own nose busted over poorly-advised self-righteousness in my time. It's kind of gratifying knowing I'm not singular in my stupidity.

Do I want to know?
 
This whole thing feels slipshod. Nobody can provide any actual change of what they want from #GamerGate, besides 'fighting game journalist corruption!' and 'being anti-harassment!'.

Yet the most RT'd things I've seen are a screencap of a game journalist telling a troll to fuck off, a shitty MS Paint proofreading of Totilo's GamerGate article, and a whole bunch of baseless nonsense about anti GamerGate people. It feels manufactured.
 
Or a woman going on a night out in a short skirt and getting raped, right?
I think you're diminishing the power of the victims here. They went in guns blazing and were sickeningly self-righteous about it.

Now, some of this is just maladjusted nutballs being maladjusted nutballs. Some of it was hubris.

And hubris is always funny.
 
This whole thing feels slipshod. Nobody can provide any actual change of what they want from #GamerGate, besides 'fighting game journalist corruption!' and 'being anti-harassment!'.

Yet the most RT'd things I've seen are a screencap of a game journalist telling a troll to fuck off, a shitty MS Paint proofreading of Totilo's GamerGate article, and a whole bunch of baseless nonsense about anti GamerGate people. It feels manufactured.

There honestly isn't a debate about it being manufactured, I have no idea why people
think this can somehow be turned into something productive when it was rotten from the very core to begin with.
 
There honestly isn't a debate about it being manufactured, I have no idea why people
think this can somehow be turned into something productive when it was rotten from the very core to begin with.

Which is why I find Boogie's stance so frustrating, especially as he has influence over people.
 
It's a shame that we literally needed irrefutable proof from the organizers of #Gamergate that the whole movement was about harassment, stalking, abuse, and blatant misogyny

It's a shame that there are people that think this is proof of anything that we didn't already know, that there are individuals under the different tags that are terrible. Beyond that it is as much proof of anything as any of the other screen caped logs and chatboxes throughout this entire thing.

And yet if you go on twitter right now there are #GamerGate supporters claiming that the IRC screencaps must be fake!

They're the people who think that 'harassment is totally wrong' while arguing that all women in gaming are fabricating their abuse.

Everything is fake without proof. That doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't talk about it of course. Take a second to remind yourself how much you would think a screen cap of someone using Zoe's name in a random chatlog saying terrible things would matter or be believed. Now think about what you would think about the people that tried to use that as a representation of everyone on that side of the issue.

Once again, I'm not even making the claim that the shots are faked. We know there are horrible people doing horrible people stuff under the various tags, and already have had a ton of screen shots of people saying indefensible things using the tags.
 
Everything is fake without proof. That doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't talk about it of course. Take a second to remind yourself how much you would think a screen cap of someone using Zoe's name in a random chatlog saying terrible things would matter or be believed. Now think about what you would think about the people that tried to use that as a representation of everyone on that side of the issue.

Once again, I'm not even making the claim that the shots are faked. We know there are horrible people doing horrible people stuff under the various tags, and already have had a ton of screen shots of people saying indefensible things using the tags.

If people cared about accountability or thinking rationally about snippets taken from chat logs & twitter, this entire conversation wouldn't be taking place.

Most of the people shouting how fake these shots are have been very actively engaging in what essentially turned into an enormous harrassment campaign of Zoe & quite a few (percieved) friends of her.
 
You know what the sad thing is though? The things I'm most afraid of?

Even after all this, I think things will remain the same. There is collateral damage (people quitting), but the people who really should lose their jobs won't. This may make it harder for women to get into the industry after what's happened, but that's just part of the collateral damage. Other than that, the status quo will remain the same.

That's the thing that depresses me -- all of the bad stuff that's happened may linger (though not for long), and none of the good will. It's going to be forgotten soon enough, until another controversy piece hits the media to provide another boost. Then the cycle will just keep repeating ad nauseam.

I wish I could say that change is coming. :\
 
https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate

^ This is a collection of what Zoe revealed overnight if anyone wants to get caught up.

I find it funny that some people are calling this fake (despite posts on 4chan telling people to get out of those rooms because she is there) yet believed what her ex posted when the first happened without a second thought.

This shit is crazy though.
 
For better or for worse, Dodd Scientifics is one of those attempts.

yup. It's a shame he cannot participate here (his own fault though).

I'm sorry to say that, but those are the only explanations for why people keep having the need to keep the illusion of Alexander and her proponents are in the wrong and unjustified in their pursuit for more diversity and less misogyny that I can come up with.


some points:

  • IMO people who become obsessed--for lack of a better word--with games have some psychological damage. It provides a means of escape or a way to self-medicate via elevated dopamine levels. I put myself in this category.
  • Vgames also provide an outlet for young male impulses that previously could have ended in criminal or anti-social behaviour. I think I would have gotten into less trouble as a youth if I was into gaming then. At risk youths should be given xboxes and yearly CoD.
  • There are real issues with all media today. Corporate concentration and the diminishing numbers of people who are willing to pay for the services of journalists means fewer people are able to make a living as stand up journos. It also means that their voices get drowned out. The only things that matter are number of eyeballs, and keeping advertisers happy because they pay the bills. This is true in every media sector that relies on advertising for revenue for survival.

So, we have unstable people that are young and male and a real issue, which can lead to trouble in so many ways. It's good they are attracted to vgames and not religion.

& finally, just because the behaviour and beliefs of those doing the harassing appear irrational doesn't mean they don't believe what they are saying and that their actions aren't justified in their minds. Self-deception is part of every human's make-up, with the possible exception of Buddhas. On gaf, because it is moderated with gusto, we do not see the truly less socially acceptable side of gaming. But it exists and it is mostly genuine.

There are some areas of life where treading softly is a good idea. Religion, politics, and videgames are probably three of them.
 
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/508212326923644928


Considering people have a tendacy to just post every and any tweet of someone being mean, aggressive, extremist or acting like there's "only two sides" I figured I'd pop this tweet in the discussion.

& finally, just because the behaviour and beliefs of those doing the harassing appear irrational doesn't mean they don't believe what they are saying and that their actions aren't justified in their minds. Self-deception is part of every human's make-up, with the possible exception of Buddhas. On gaf, because it is moderated with gusto, we do not see the truly less socially acceptable side of gaming. But it exists and it is mostly genuine.

I think this is a very important point & a good reason not to ever dismiss people as simply "Trolls" or "extremists".

I've seen extremely few cases where extreme behavior or harrasment isn't a result of very strongly-held beliefs; Even if the person responsible acts casually about holding them. (or sometimes even denies it.)
 
Most of the people shouting how fake these shots are have been very actively engaging in what essentially turned into an enormous harrassment campaign of Zoe & quite a few (percieved) friends of her.
So it's one group of people harassing her while another group defends her? Isn't this all over some personal business that was aired out in public?
 
Sockpuppet = a fake account. By definition you are excluded from that category.



I think a self-identified "SJW" did? Not sure how it relates to Zoe at all.

when I offered this opinion on zoe quinn

"I don't know her nor care to know her and at this point of this debacle she is largely unimportant." I was told that "I looked like the kind of person who would say that about zoe" and also a "fat neckbearded piece of shit." by someone who supports her. not that its any different than any other day, other than it came from a self described "SJW"
 
Which is why I find Boogie's stance so frustrating, especially as he has influence over people.
The 'gamers are dead' pieces were so poorly written that they were bound to produce ire from people attached to the moniker who felt like they were being painted with the same brush as 4chan.

Some men are rapists so now 'men' are over. To call yourselves men is to call yourselves rapists and there are no good associations with the name.

Some cops are abusive so now 'cops' are over. To call yourself a cop is to label yourself an abusive asshole and just forget about any positive associations with the word. It's dead.

You want to know why you haven't heard most of those arguments seriously proposed before? Because the people pushing for the elimination of rape (which is pretty much everybody) and the people who are trying to reduce abusive police KNOW that demonizing ALL men and ALL cops is incredibly counterproductive.

Why these game journalists didn't realize the same thing about gamers is baffling.
 
If people cared about accountability or thinking rationally about snippets taken from chat logs & twitter, this entire conversation wouldn't be taking place.

Most of the people shouting how fake these shots are have been very actively engaging in what essentially turned into an enormous harrassment campaign of Zoe & quite a few (percieved) friends of her.

And those specific people that have engaged in said harassment have always been wrong and continue to be wrong.

https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate

^ This is a collection of what Zoe revealed overnight if anyone wants to get caught up.

I find it funny that some people are calling this fake (despite posts on 4chan telling people to get out of those rooms because she is there) yet believed what her ex posted when the first happened without a second thought.

This shit is crazy though.

Go to /v/ itself and read the responses to the "OH GOD GET OUT OF THE CHAT ZOE IS WATCHING" posts.
 
when I offered this opinion on zoe quinn

"I don't know her nor care to know her and at this point of this debacle she is largely unimportant." I was told that "I looked like the kind of person who would say that about zoe" and also a "fat neckbearded piece of shit." by someone who supports her. not that its any different than any other day, other than it came from a self described "SJW"

I wouldn't be surprised if the person calling you slurs were someone from 4chan or whatever disguising as a SJW.

And calling Zoe Quinn unimportant and that you are unwilling to know her is very unsympathetic and somewhat misguided, since this whole thing is a continuation of the harassment and bullying of Quinn, as well as Sarkesian.
 
It's a shame that there are people that think this is proof of anything that we didn't already know, that there are individuals under the different tags that are terrible. Beyond that it is as much proof of anything as any of the other screen caped logs and chatboxes throughout this entire thing.



Everything is fake without proof. That doesn't mean we can't and shouldn't talk about it of course. Take a second to remind yourself how much you would think a screen cap of someone using Zoe's name in a random chatlog saying terrible things would matter or be believed. Now think about what you would think about the people that tried to use that as a representation of everyone on that side of the issue.

Once again, I'm not even making the claim that the shots are faked. We know there are horrible people doing horrible people stuff under the various tags, and already have had a ton of screen shots of people saying indefensible things using the tags.

No-one is using the IRC caps as a representation of everyone on that side of the issue!

What people like me are saying is that #GamerGate was founded in toxicity amid harassment of ZQ and has continued to have a strong toxic element. Now, it may be a small minority of #GamerGate supporters involved directly in that abuse but there are many other people playing down the harassment or saying that it's faked. Thunderf00t, who has lot of youtube viewers and who people see as a credible intelligent man, has accused AS of faking threats.

At the same time, the actual 'corruption' charges don't withstand any scrutiny and the real problems in game journalism aren't even being talked about as people focus on a few indie devs! #GamerGate has zero merit.
 
when I offered this opinion on zoe quinn

"I don't know her nor care to know her and at this point of this debacle she is largely unimportant." I was told that "I looked like the kind of person who would say that about zoe" and also a "fat neckbearded piece of shit." by someone who supports her. not that its any different than any other day, other than it came from a self described "SJW"
Wait what? You called the woman in the centre of this entire thing unimportant?
 
.

4chan: discretion and integrity and open honesty in games journalism

4chan: oh no she's here seeing the shit we're doing! hide, hide!!!

because this is about integrity. not revenge. not harassment. not hurting people.

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I wouldn't be surprised if the person calling you slurs were someone from 4chan or whatever disguising as a SJW.

And calling Zoe Quinn unimportant and that you are unwilling to know her is very unsympathetic and somewhat misguided, since this whole thing is a continuation of the harassment and bullying of Quinn, as well as Sarkesian.

Ok let's say that it is indeed a bully disguising as a SJW but does that not open up the possibility that SJW are disguising as #GamerGate supporters this works both ways.
 
I find it funny that some people are calling this fake (despite posts on 4chan telling people to get out of those rooms because she is there) yet believed what her ex posted when the first happened without a second thought.

I've been on 4chan for the past 4 threads for gamergate and haven't seen posts saying that.

The reaction to these tweets were mostly reaction images and lamenting their association with the Youtube guys behind that IRC channel. ATM it's mostly people trolling by pretending to be concerned and telling people to give up/we failed/etc, and reactions to posts like this.

Obviously this doesn't sum up every post made in these threads (they're typically 1,000 posts long by the time they're pruned off the board). But it's a pretty good overview of the reaction to Zoe's tweets.

BTW, /v/ has been shouting down pretty much anyone bringing Zoe up for a while now, they've been trying to distance themselves from the harassment being thrown at her. If you don't believe that, you can skim some gamergate threads in the archive if you want. Which is why I made this post being generally positive of the movement and 4chan's involvement in it. I still stand by it.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the person calling you slurs were someone from 4chan or whatever disguising as a SJW.

And calling Zoe Quinn unimportant and that you are unwilling to know her is very unsympathetic and somewhat misguided, since this whole thing is a continuation of the harassment and bullying of Quinn, as well as Sarkesian.
Is Quinn innocent? That's what isn't clear to me. It seems like she did something mean and someone massively over-responded. Or was that all made up by the offensive party?

Anita seems totally innocent on the other hand.
 
The 'gamers are dead' pieces were so poorly written that they were bound to produce ire from people attached to the moniker who felt like they were being painted with the same brush as 4chan.

Some men are rapists so now 'men' are over. To call yourselves men is to call yourselves rapists and there are no good associations with the name.

Some cops are abusive so now 'cops' are over. To call yourself a cop is to label yourself an abusive asshole and just forget about any positive associations with the word. It's dead.

You want to know why you haven't heard most of those arguments seriously proposed before? Because the people pushing for the elimination of rape (which is pretty much everybody) and the people who are trying to reduce abusive police KNOW that demonizing ALL men and ALL cops is incredibly counterproductive.

Why these game journalists didn't realize the same thing about gamers is baffling.

The articles weren't poorly written, they were poorly read. A lot of people didn't understand the point that was being made even though it was articulated clearly.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the person calling you slurs were someone from 4chan or whatever disguising as a SJW.

That kind of argument can go in circles forever, with who is faking who for the sake of what only depending on how it lines up with the point of view of the person you are talking to. Furthermore it is kind of far fetched not to admit that there are people on both sides willing and able to say terrible and offensive things and instead try to spin all possible abuse as coming from the same source. Even if one side is clearly more heavily loaded in that regard.
 
Eh, it's actually really easy to tell who's a faker here.

Not a lot of tweets, but had an account for a while? Account activity just RAMPED up all of a sudden?

Faker McFake, usually
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the person calling you slurs were someone from 4chan or whatever disguising as a SJW.

And calling Zoe Quinn unimportant and that you are unwilling to know her is very unsympathetic and somewhat misguided, since this whole thing is a continuation of the harassment and bullying of Quinn, as well as Sarkesian.

I checked their history.

they weren't. I never thought to take screencaps and I wish that I had.
 
Wait what? You called the woman in the centre of this entire thing unimportant?

For me she is not the center of the thing but in the far behind of it. Sure she is the reason it started, well mostly her idiotic ex boyfriend, but it has evolved into so much more than that.

I obviously don't condone harassing of women and that's obviously not why I am involved. Its also not strong enough to make me eject, either.

For me its about gaming journalistic integrity and I simply will not stop calling for it no matter how many people think doing so is 'abusive to women' or whatever.
 
I checked their history.

they weren't. I never thought to take screencaps and I wish that I had.

That really sucks and I'm sorry that happened. You obviously don't deserve that abuse but what does it have to so with 'gaming reform' and what is 'gaming reform'?
 
The 'gamers are dead' pieces were so poorly written that they were bound to produce ire from people attached to the moniker who felt like they were being painted with the same brush as 4chan.

Some men are rapists so now 'men' are over. To call yourselves men is to call yourselves rapists and there are no good associations with the name.

Some cops are abusive so now 'cops' are over. To call yourself a cop is to label yourself an abusive asshole and just forget about any positive associations with the word. It's dead.

You want to know why you haven't heard most of those arguments seriously proposed before? Because the people pushing for the elimination of rape (which is pretty much everybody) and the people who are trying to reduce abusive police KNOW that demonizing ALL men and ALL cops is incredibly counterproductive.

Why these game journalists didn't realize the same thing about gamers is baffling.

Being a men is a biological and genetical condition, being a police is a professional and vocational choice, being a "gamer" (in quotations) as is criticised by these articles is a consumerist choice attached to an inclination to over consumption, clique wars behaviours and immaturity. The "gamer" identity rightfully or not is associated with childish play, being a waste of time, since the beginning of the industry. An unhealthy lifestyle. Truth is though that today, there are millions of people that play video games, and don't even think about it too much. It's a past time, entertainment, nothing more than that. The massification of video games is responsible now for millions of people that aren't "gamers" they just happen to play games.

People that are writing these article saying "gamers" are dead. Are just emphasising this shift, this cultural paradigm shift that's inexorable.
 
The articles weren't poorly written, they were poorly read. A lot of people didn't understand the point that was being made even though it was articulated clearly.
Not poorly written. Just poor articles counterproductive to their supposed goals and defended by some who choose to interpret them very liberally to support preconceived biases. This has been covered pretty exhaustively and not convincingly refuted in the face of actual textual analysis.
 
For me she is not the center of the thing but in the far behind of it. Sure she is the reason it started, well mostly her idiotic ex boyfriend, but it has evolved into so much more than that.

I obviously don't condone harassing of women and that's obviously not why I am involved. Its also not strong enough to make me eject, either.

For me its about gaming journalistic integrity and I simply will not stop calling for it no matter how many people think doing so is 'abusive to women' or whatever.

It should be. It really fucking should be.

I don't understand why someone in your position would want to become associated with something so toxic and idiotic as #GamerGate.
 
That kind of argument can go in circles forever, with who is faking who for the sake of what only depending on how it lines up with the point of view of the person you are talking to. Furthermore it is kind of far fetched not to admit that there are people on both sides willing and able to say terrible and offensive things and instead try to spin all possible abuse as coming from the same source. Even if one side is clearly more heavily loaded in that regard.

/: The shitty part is that 4channers have been known to do this in the past.

There was a whole incident with a #yourslipisshowing hashtag 4channers started pretending to be black women in the hope to make white feminists look bad.


I've been looking around for the comment Boogie was describing and did find a few people saying/suggesting mean stuff who seem to legitimately be on Zoe's side so it's kinda irrelevant. But the "let's pretend to be extreme SJW!!"-thing is obnoxious background noise that's been around for ages.

For me its about gaming journalistic integrity and I simply will not stop calling for it no matter how many people think doing so is 'abusive to women' or whatever.

I think the argument isn't that asking for integrity is itself abusive to women, but the fact that this entire hashtag/scandal was essentially grounded in that very abuse.
 
Again, blaming the people being abused.

I don't agree with everything you type sneds, but I do agree with this one. There's literally no excuse for abusing another human being. I don't care if its a woman whose drunk and half naked or some dude who is just begging for a beating.

I do still believe that a woman should consider her surroundings and have some self awareness, because every person is a potential abuser, but i extend that advice to all humans and not just women. :)
 
It should be. It really fucking should be.

I don't understand why someone in your position would want to become associated with something so toxic and idiotic as #GamerGate.

honestly? because the majority of people involved are not so blind as to make that connection. Also because this end goal is important. and no there is no goal of 'zoe being super sad' or anything.

the end goal is pretty clear. Journalistic integrity, and media reform. I'm so sorry that zoe is a casualty of it and I'll be sorry if my career becomes a casualty of it but If that's what it is, then that's what it is.
 
Not poorly written. Just poor articles counterproductive to their supposed goals and defended by some who choose to interpret them very liberally to support preconceived biases. This has been covered pretty exhaustively and not convincingly refuted in the face of actual textual analysis.

Oh well, if it's been covered exhaustively through actual textual analysis then that's that!

Never mind that many other people deduced the point of those articles and agreed with them.
 
honestly? because the majority of people involved are not so blind as to make that connection. Also because this end goal is important. and no there is no goal of 'zoe being super sad' or anything.

the end goal is pretty clear. Journalistic integrity, and media reform. I'm so sorry that zoe is a casualty of it and I'll be sorry if my career becomes a casualty of it but If that's what it is, then that's what it is.

What is "media reform"? Give me five things you think IGN/Kotaku/Polygon/etc. should do tomorrow.

And I'd look into your own "sides" ethics as far as Youtubers go - http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-07-16-blurred-lines-are-youtubers-breaking-the-law
 
I checked their history.

they weren't. I never thought to take screencaps and I wish that I had.

I'm really sorry to hear you were exposed to bullying and slurs and harassment. :(

But next time you enter a situation or a controversy, would you please introduce yourself to the background and the history of what is going on? By not reading up on the origins of Gamergate, on the despicable harassment of Zoe Quinn, and how the involved parties are misogynistic and targeting women, you actively contribute to further misunderstanding and muddying of the issue? The implication is that you sign onto a movement that has sexist and misogynistic influences and try to defend the hashtag when already a lot of women have quit the culture and industry because of the excessive harassment and bullying associated with the hashtag.

So by inserting yourself into the discussion and taking a stand for #gamergate without being aware of the implications or who Zoe Quinn is and how she has been harassed, you unwittingly defend or veil the harassment of women in video games, despite you never having the intention to do so.

Let me quote what charlequin wrote earlier - this is basically what you have and are doing:

To speak metaphorically here for a second, you walked in on a scene where a group of aging, bigoted, white, male nerds that are reluctant to see their landscape troubled were screaming, shouting, and threatening game developers and writers, then you stood next to those bigoted nerds while saying "Also I have some other, less strident demands!" The only rational reaction is to ignore you because you have chosen the worst possible way to raise any legitimate issue.

and

Just to be crystal-clear, what's happening here isn't the "oh look, there's this other unrelated issue that's more important," it's people trying to deal with the problems that are fundamental to how this current discussion started.

Let me get metaphorical again. A gang of arsonists start a fire and start dancing around giddily outside the blaze, laughing at what they've accomplished and high-fiving as each new building catches flame. Some rescue workers show up to put out that fire. If you pick that moment to step in front of them and say, "I know you're here to deal with this fire, but I have a stuck window across the street and I simply must insist you deal with that first before you get back to fighting this fire," you're definitely not going to get your window fixed --and if you actively get in their way you're probably going to get arrested.

I mean, you can whine to other people nearby your window if you really want to, but it's going to turn people who would normally sympathize against you, because it just demonstrates such a lack of perspective.

Misogyny is an accurate, unexaggerated descriptor of what has been happening over the last week, with targeted campaigns of violent harassment against outspoken women in the industry. Talking about it any other way is whitewashing the abhorrent behavior that people have been displaying.
 
honestly? because the majority of people involved are not so blind as to make that connection. Also because this end goal is important. and no there is no goal of 'zoe being super sad' or anything.

the end goal is pretty clear. Journalistic integrity, and media reform. I'm so sorry that zoe is a casualty of it and I'll be sorry if my career becomes a casualty of it but If that's what it is, then that's what it is.

We all want journalistic integrity. What is far from clear is what you, and others, mean by reform. What policies do you want websites and magazines to put in place?
 
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