#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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I don't know much about the development staff behind CoD, but your issue seems to be with your fellow gamers.

It's not the developers, but the sexist and racist and homophobic players and communities in online games such as CoD.

You could probably argue though that the developers and publishers and console manufacturers should curate their spaces a bit more and actively diminish the bigotry in their consumer base through signal boosting anti-harassment campaigns.

Like what FIFA is doing with racism.
 
https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate

^ This is a collection of what Zoe revealed overnight if anyone wants to get caught up.

I find it funny that some people are calling this fake (despite posts on 4chan telling people to get out of those rooms because she is there) yet believed what her ex posted when the first happened without a second thought.

This shit is crazy though.

This is REALLY stupid of her, if she's sending this stuff to the FBI and filing a police report, why the hell is she posting excerpts on Twitter of all places!? Keep it under your hat and let authorities do their jobs!

And she's apparently going at it with her ex on Twitter now as well, sigh.

The two of them have legitimate mental problems, IMO. They're behaving childishly and irrationally.
 
1) Apology for what?

1b) So you have a problem with 1 article? Is that what this all about?

2)Because? Why the need for silencing?

2b)What is non-gaming related crap which gets posted?

3)We had this because of Doritos-Gate, which was an actual issue.

3b) That would be absurdly intrusive. If a journalist can't have professional distance, the Editor in chief shouldn't choose him, as simple as fuck.



Truth to be told, your labelling of Quinn as casualty, while asking for widespread apologies is quite scary.
 
Clearly. I'm content to leave it at that if that means no more claims about other people's reading abilities. Dissenting opinions from yours are well supported.

2) I assume the intent was not to enrage the audience and drive them into #GamerGate. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I'm aware that my position of 'if you don't agree with my interpretation then you're a poor reader' was arrogant. But I've been going over this for days now and it gets frustrating when people accuse Alexander of saying that 'all gamers are assholes'.

Leigh Alexander's article was targeted at the industry quite explicitly. It's target audience was not 'gamers'. I don't know how it was received by game devs.

I imagine for Alexander that one aim of the article was simply to express her feelings. It must be infuriating to see how other women like ZQ and AS we're being treated.
 
The two of them have legitimate mental problems, IMO. They're behaving childishly and irrationally.

I would have become insane if I was the target of persistent harassment for the last 6 months for putting up a game FOR FREE on Steam. I have incredible respect for Quinn to be able to withstand all this misogyny and sexism, along with innocent people who also doubt her because of their nativity about the situation (see dark10x and boogie2988)
 
This is REALLY stupid of her, if she's sending this stuff to the FBI and filing a police report, why the hell is she posting excerpts on Twitter of all places!? Keep it under your hat and let authorities do their jobs!

And she's apparently going at it with her ex on Twitter now as well, sigh.

The two of them have legitimate mental problems, IMO. They're behaving childishly and irrationally.

I assume she did it to discredit the continued use of the hashtag. If it stops some of the people who use it and claim it's only about corruption then it's worth doing it. And if you think an argument is enough to be considered "mental problems", then you must have a pretty warped view of mental illness.
 
In case anyone here is a fan of the guy: "Mundane Matt" (some gamer youtube personality) is in the chatroom screenshots that Quinn has shown:



What a scumbag.

I don't really understand what you are doing on multiple levels. Is he a scumbag for doing something in that screenshot that I am missing, or because of his videos? If the first, are we now directly promoting name calling and judging of someone based off of a screen name in a chat log as the connection? I don't mean to be antagonistic, but if someone from whatever side of this you do not agree with posted a screenshot of a chatlog with someone using the name "Zoe Quinn" saying/doing something untoward what would you think? I guess that is more of an introspective question.
 
This is the most succinct summary of Gamergate to me, by Rami Ismail. It should be put in the OP in case anyone is thinking TL;DR about the situation at first:

What is Gamergate?

As far as I see things, Gamergate is a hashtag on Twitter that originated in a harassment campaign against prominent industry members that was co-opted by people who are upset about videogame journalism ethics. It is now a confusing mess of people using the legitimacy of the hashtag to further an agenda of harassment, a lot of unsubstantiated conspiracy theories and a well-intended group of people trying to raise concerns about journalistic standards. While I think continuously evaluating the way industry members interact is important, using something that started as and continues to act as a harassment campaign purely as signal booster only serves to weaken a message that would be far better and more effectively made without attaching the negative connotations of the hashtag to it.
 
If I was Alexander I wouldn't have included the stuff about people's appearance. It was unnecessary and became the focus of people's ire (in order to avoid dealing with the more substantive points she made?).

But overall I thought the article had a strong central argument that she expressed strongly. I agree with this central argument as I've said in previous posts in this thread.

I guess one can feel that the idea behind the article was good, as I assume most here do, but that the article was poorly written. Ascribing a certain look to the 'gamers' she's talking aout was, like you said, unnecessary. And while I'm certain some took that as an opportunity to dismiss the article and fight back, it seems a lot found it hypocritical in an article that was meant to be inclusive.
 
I don't really understand what you are doing on multiple levels. Is he a scumbag for doing something in that screenshot that I am missing, or because of his videos? If the first, are we now directly promoting name calling and judging of someone based off of a screen name in a chat log as the connection? I don't mean to be antagonistic, but if someone from whatever side of this you do not agree with posted a screenshot of a chatlog with someone using the name "Zoe Quinn" saying/doing something untoward what would you think? I guess that is more of an introspective question.

He confirmed himself on Twitter that he was in that chatroom.
 
Didn't Leigh Alexander already apologize for the tone in that article? If you're gonna ask for apologies you also have to be around to listen for it.
 

If you want to take issue with the points feel free to do so in the other thread. I simply linked the post because there was this presumption that there aren't people out there who have an opinion on what the press need to do. With that in mind: -

"Sometimes your readership is wrong and needs to be told they're being idiots."

There's a big differential between dismissing an idea Versus dismissing a person that I'm not entirely sure you're grasping there.

He confirmed himself on Twitter that he was in that chatroom.

Can you maybe elaborate as to what exactly he's supposed to be doing?

Didn't Leigh Alexander already apologize for the tone in that article? If you're gonna ask for apologies you also have to be around to listen for it.

Where exactly? There's nothing in the article to suggest an apology.
 
I would have become insane if I was the target of persistent harassment for the last 6 months for putting up a game FOR FREE on Steam. I have incredible respect for Quinn to be able to withstand all this misogyny and sexism, along with innocent people who also doubt her because of their nativity about the situation (see dark10x and boogie2988)

I am really not trying to single you out, and it isn't intentional that the last two things I have quoted have been your posts, but I have to ask; 6 months? Not claiming that the harassment being for less of a time makes it any better or more acceptable of course.

He confirmed himself on Twitter that he was in that chatroom.

That does answer part of my post, but not the first question.
 
*women are getting harassed and bullied and quitting video game culture and industry*

"We need to talk about the hurtful generalizations of gamers in an article by Leigh Alexander!"
 
He confirmed himself on Twitter that he was in that chatroom.

Mere participation in chat doesn't automatically makes you a scumbag, by that logic the person taking the screenshot as some sort of damning evidence is also a scumbag because s/he too participated in that.
 
I am really not trying to single you out, and it isn't intentional that the last two things I have quoted have been your posts, but I have to ask; 6 months? Not claiming that the harassment being for less of a time makes it any better or more acceptable of course.

When Depression Quest was put on Steam Greenlight, Quinn was harassed and bullied. This was in December and January. Here's the GAF thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=734075

That does answer part of my post, but not the first question.

Because he was participating in the chatroom and thus witness to plans of bullying and harassment, he is complicit by his inaction and tacit approval of the criminal behavior.
 
*women are getting harassed and bullied and quitting video game culture and industry*

"We need to talk about the hurtful generalizations of gamers in an article by Leigh Alexander!"
I don't understand. Are you implying there are no bigger problems in the world today than women being harassed in the video game industry?
 
Mere participation in chat doesn't automatically makes you a scumbag, by that logic the person taking the screenshot as some sort of damning evidence is also a scumbag because s/he too participated in that.

If he participated in that nonsense and didn't see fit to inform the public and authorities, then yeah, he fits my definition of a scumbag.
 
I don't understand. Are you implying there are no bigger problems in the world today than women being harassed in the video game industry?

In the world, sure there are. In video games, at this moment? Not really.

If he participated in that nonsense and didn't see fit to inform the public and authorities, then yeah, he fits my definition of a scumbag.

Hey c'mon, I was just in the same room as all these KKK members and giving them advice on the best ways to manipulate moderate white Southerners and to attack black people while getting away with it. But, I'm not a bad person.
 
http://ramiismail.com/2014/09/my-brief-opinion-on-gamergate/
As far as I see things, Gamergate is a hashtag on Twitter that originated in a harassment campaign against prominent industry members that was co-opted by people who are upset about videogame journalism ethics. It is now a confusing mess of people using the legitimacy of the hashtag to further an agenda of harassment, a lot of unsubstantiated conspiracy theories and a well-intended group of people trying to raise concerns about journalistic standards. While I think continuously evaluating the way industry members interact is important, using something that started as and continues to act as a harassment campaign purely as signal booster only serves to weaken a message that would be far better and more effectively made without attaching the negative connotations of the hashtag to it.
I like Rami.
And that's basically the cherry on top of the deflating shitcake. Flush the cake. Take that cherry and make lemonade.

Completely agree with what he's saying. How can you not?
 
I don't understand. Are you implying there are no bigger problems in the world today than women being harassed in the video game industry?

They are part of the same conversation/topic/discussion. And it should be clear which one is actually most hurtful in terms of amount of energy spent on discussing and posting on each aspect.
 
Where exactly? There's nothing in the article to suggest an apology.

Her tweet apologizing:

@leighalexander: regretful if my tone alienated non-neurotypical ppl. i had a lot of challenges re social norms as a child & games were my safe place, too <3
Shared via TweetCaster
 
*women are getting harassed and bullied and quitting video game culture and industry*

"We need to talk about the hurtful generalizations of gamers in an article by Leigh Alexander!"
It really seems like it's the same thing no matter the groups involved. If a person from a minority brings up an issue about a majority group that you happen to be a part of, your first thought shouldn't be "Well, I'm not like that!". You know you're not like that and if the person knows you personally they'd probably know you're not like that too. Instead you should be thinking about the reasons the person would have to hold that belief in the first place.
 
In the world, sure there are. In video games, at this moment? Not really.
If it's okay to talk videogames instead of more important and concerning global issues, then it's probably okay to talk about the antagonistic gaming media despite there being an ongoing problem of harassment occurring simultaneously. No?

If we're only allowed to talk about the big issues, no one has any right to be talking about anything but world hunger. This is called the fallacy of relative privation.
 
I don't understand. Are you implying there are no bigger problems in the world today than women being harassed in the video game industry?

*Engaging metaphor mode*

You and several other individuals are seated around a table at a dinner party, engaged in a heated debate about something or other. One of these people suddenly punches another in the face, blood sprays everywhere.

Do you:
a) Acknowledge this as an unfortunate incident, admonish the perpetrator, then get back to your argument?
b) Stop arguing, check that victim is okay, offer to take them to the hospital, and ensure that the dipshit who did this gets the fuck out of the house?

Further: What happens when you then realise the person who threw the punch is the host of the party?
 
*women are getting harassed and bullied and quitting video game culture and industry*

"We need to talk about the hurtful generalizations of gamers in an article by Leigh Alexander!"

Please stop this. One does not excuse the other.

I don't understand. Are you implying there are no bigger problems in the world today than women being harassed in the video game industry?

There being bigger problems dosn't make other problems less of problems.

When Depression Quest was put on Steam Greenlight, Quinn was harassed and bullied. This was in December and January. Here's the GAF thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=734075

Interesting. I was under the assumption that the wizardchan stuff was contested but see it was more then that.
 
If it's okay to talk videogames instead of more important and concerning global issues, then it's probably okay to talk about the antagonistic gaming media despite there being an ongoing problem of harassment occurring simultaneously. No?

If we're only allowed to talk about the big issues, no one has any right to be talking about anything but world hunger. This is called the fallacy of relative privation.

If people want to talk about gaming media they probably shouldn't do it by piggybacking on a campaign heavily focused on the abuse of key women in gaming. Save it for another day, if it's truly a serious problem then it's not going to disappear.
 
*Engaging metaphor mode*

You and several other individuals are seated around a table at a dinner party, engaged in a heated debate about something or other. One of these people suddenly punches another in the face, blood sprays everywhere.

Do you:
a) Acknowledge this as an unfortunate incident, admonish the perpetrator, then get back to your argument?
b) Stop arguing, check that victim is okay, offer to take them to the hospital, and ensure that the dipshit who did this gets the fuck out of the house?

Further: What happens when you then realise the person who threw the punch is the host of the party?

How is this metaphor remotely relevant? How is B actually possible? What are people on the internet supposed to do to "get this person to the hospital"? Unless there is an actual course of action, and no "CHANGE GAMES CULTURE" is not a course of action, it is a generic meaningless talking point, your metaphor is completely irrelevant as it suggests there is a direct clear action to be taken when that is not remotely the case.

Edit:

I will add that I Think it should be painfully obvious that all this stereotyping of "gamer" as meaning "sexist bigot" is entirely counter productive toward making it a more inclusive space, the reason for this should be totally obvious.
 
If it's okay to talk videogames instead of more important and concerning global issues, then it's probably okay to talk about the antagonistic gaming media despite there being an ongoing problem of harassment occurring simultaneously. No?

If we're only allowed to talk about the big issues, no one has any right to be talking about anything but world hunger. This is called the fallacy of relative privation.

What antigonistic gaming media? It is clear you feel opressed and persecuted, but by what?
 
Her tweet apologizing

How about rewording the article instead? Not all of us bother with Twitter. I mean shit whose she posting to save those who actively follow her?

Please stop this. One does not excuse the other.

Agreed. I'm not seeing much concession that maybe just maybe internet hero #6 might actually have crossed a line somewhere versus 'this is outrageous!!'. The righteous indignation over fallout at every given opportunity begins to wear after a while, when the other stuff gets swept under the rug.
 
Her tweet apologizing:

@leighalexander: regretful if my tone alienated non-neurotypical ppl. i had a lot of challenges re social norms as a child & games were my safe place, too <3
Shared via TweetCaster

Non-neurotypical? There's still something here that blames the fabric of those who make up the general gaming populace rather than focusing her efforts on the machinations that got us to this point, then.
 
*Engaging metaphor mode*

You and several other individuals are seated around a table at a dinner party, engaged in a heated debate about something or other. One of these people suddenly punches another in the face, blood sprays everywhere.

Do you:
a) Acknowledge this as an unfortunate incident, admonish the perpetrator, then get back to your argument?
b) Stop arguing, check that victim is okay, offer to take them to the hospital, and ensure that the dipshit who did this gets the fuck out of the house?

Further: What happens when you then realise the person who threw the punch is the host of the party?
Try this one. You're at a regular dinner party and the host starts insulting you and all of the other guests with open contempt. The host is there in front of you and you can voice your displeasure to him in hopes of finding an amicable solution.

Meanwhile, there are homeless people in the city and you find that terrible but no one has any idea how to fix it. But there's a really heated Twitter conversation!

Again, this is a logical fallacy that just because there are bigger problems, other problems are not important or worth talking about.

It's just a way to silence criticism under a cloak of righteousness.
 
Where exactly? There's nothing in the article to suggest an apology.
Ok here we go, this isn't the best way of doing this but (Twitter posts)

<<
I try to remember that I was once young, depressed, lonely, had no friends, and was an asshole on the internet too as a result

It's sad. Like, the saddest.

i was a really unhappy kid and i just try to think that maybe people who say terrible shit on the internet are just hurting like i was

i couldn't stand behind literally anything i did, wrote, posted 10-15 years ago, it'd be deeply upsetting to you all

maybe everyone you got a blunt, shitty, hateful message from today will go on to heal a bit, enjoy adulthood, even help others in future

[later after she retweeted http://pastebin.com/g0Rtm3xQ]

regretful if my tone alienated non-neurotypical ppl. i had a lot of challenges re social norms as a child & games were my safe place, too <3
>>>


EDIT

How about rewording the article instead? Not all of us bother with Twitter. I mean shit whose she posting to save those who actively follow her?
Oh come on.
 
It morphed into that so quickly because the critique in the articles was nuanced, which means that it's easy to twist into something very different from what it was intended to be. Notice how pretty much every one of these articles doesn't refer to "gamers" in the title, but rather " 'gamers' " -- it puts the word in scare-quotes specifically because they aren't discussing gamers, the category of people, but rather "gamers," the term which is being presented as a concrete measure of identity. The point is that the concept of "gamers," or even moreso "real gamers," was an exclusionary and increasingly inaccurate model, and these events show that it's past its breaking point.

If there were actually an epidemic of articles claiming that all people who are active in the gaming hobby are virginal misogynists with bad hair, I'd certainly object to that, but that's not really what's been going on. Pretty much every one of those articles is written by someone who is very much, by both vocation and avocation, a gamer, or at least a person who is heavily engaged with games and gaming. These are internal critiques by people who are frustrated by the choice between tacitly supporting brutal misogyny and disassociating themselves from their hobby. The fact that so many people have perceived them as external speaks to the original issue -- the fact that these critiques were made by women has led them to be widely viewed as coming from outside, even if the people making them are dyed-in-the-wool members of the community.

thankyou
and what's so unbelievably frustrating is that this stuff has gone COMPLETELY over the heads of sooooooooo many people
 
How is this metaphor remotely relevant? How is B actually possible? What are people on the internet supposed to do to "get this person to the hospital"? Unless there is an actual course of action, and no "CHANGE GAMES CULTURE" is not a course of action, it is a generic meaningless talking point, your metaphor is completely irrelevant as it suggests there is a direct clear action to be taken when that is not remotely the case.

I'm saying that individuals like, for example, Jenn Frank being chased out of the community would, ideally, immediately become the focal point of this entire shitty show from anyone with an ounce of perspective. Ideally there would have been a hearty and loud showing of support and love to drown out, or at least dilute, the bile and hatred. Instead, the victims are a sidenote and an argument continues to rage on over the importance of listing industry contacts in editorial pieces whilst bickering over what 'gamer' means to a dozen different people. When real people are being harassed, leaving their work and being made to feel unsafe. All under the same umbrella.

I'm not saying these discussion isn't valid, I'm saying that more pressing, shitty matters have surfaced during the discussion. Talk about ethics outside of the gamergate context. Talk about it in a month or two. But right now the nasty stuff is the loudest. As I said in a previous post, the table needs to have all the shit cleared away before people sit back down.
 
thankyou
and what's so unbelievably frustrating is that this stuff has gone COMPLETELY over the heads of sooooooooo many people

It's easier to lash out and get defensive than trying to understand why some people may be feeling pushed out of the industry
 
it is never good enough.

Frankly I'm willing to accept that this has just made me paranoid, and if you're a proponent of Occam's Razor, I don't see why you would disagree, but the choice of the word use of "non-neurotypical" strikes me as a bizarre move. She's still saying that everyone who fits into the typical behaviour is being singled out here, which, regardless of whether or not I agreed, likely to draw ire.

It's still pinning the issues behind the gamer mentality behind an innate psych profile, insinuated in the first quarter of the article, rather than the commercialisation and marketing of the industry as the rest of the article goes on to blame.

Having said all this, it's not like I can reasonably ask her to do anything else in this matter, so whatever.
 
My heart really goes out to everyone who got the worst of it over the past few weeks. I'm just some guy looking in from the outside and even I had to mentally check out the last few days. I want to praise their strength and resolve through all of this, but don't want to make it sound like I'm criticizing people who did choose to step away. No one should have to put up with this. This shouldn't be something that women have to just "deal with." This has to be the moment everyone realizes that there is a movement, most definitely not the majority but certainly the most vocal and active, that will seek to force out any woman with a voice. They want to make gaming a regressive and toxic environment. Hopefully if you weren't as aware you took some time to think this over and consider that what has been happening over the past few weeks isn't an isolated incident. It is systemic and will continue until something is done about it. I'm not saying that if you got swept in this that you're a bad person. We all make mistakes. Just be sure that you learn from them.
 
Neurotypical is a term used to describe people without autism or mental disorders. Non-neurotypical would be someone who is autistic or has a mental disorder. Essentially, she apologized if she offended any retards.

At the most charitable, she can be interpreted as saying she apologizes if she offended any gamers who aren't like all of the other gamers. Which, of course, would imply directly that she was broadly insulting the whole community.
 
Frankly I'm willing to accept that this has just made me paranoid, and if you're a proponent of Occam's Razor, I don't see why you would disagree, but the choice of the word use of "non-neurotypical" strikes me as a bizarre move. She's still saying that everyone who fits into the typical behaviour is being singled out here, which, regardless of whether or not I agreed, likely to draw ire.

It's still pinning the issues behind the gamer mentality behind an innate psych profile, insinuated in the first quarter of the article, rather than the commercialisation and marketing of the industry as the rest of the article goes on to blame.

Having said all this, it's not like I can reasonably ask her to do anything else in this matter, so whatever.

Someone who identified as non-neurotypical (which is fairly common term within SJ-circles) had a complaint about her article.

She apologized to this person & other people who felt the same.


I'm not sure what part's upsetting or bothering you about that.

Neurotypical is a term used to describe people without autism or mental disorders. Non-neurotypical would be someone who is autistic or has a mental disorder. Essentially, she apologized if she offended any retards.

What the fuck? Not a fan of your choice of words there. /:
 
Someone who identified as non-neurotypical (which is fairly common term within SJ-circles) had a complaint about her article.

She apologized to this person & other people who felt the same.

I'm not sure what part's upsetting or bothering you about that.

I see. I rescind my statement. I have high-functioning autism (or so it has been said), and I was only barely aware of this term. Having said that, I'm not sure what part of her article could have been inflammatory in that manner, but it's no skin off my back.
 
Someone who identified as non-neurotypical (which is fairly common term within SJ-circles) had a complaint about her article.

She apologized to this person & other people who felt the same.
That's another explanation. Nothing bad to read into that. Not familiar enough with Twitter to realize there was a Tweet like that that prompted hers. My fault.
 
Plenty of people re-address articles. It's not a hate crime. Posting on twitter to the faithful seems like small beer to me.

You asked where she apologized, and already knew it wasn't in the article. I responded and now you're moving the goalposts. And just looking at her @replies demonstrates she's not just speaking to "the faithful."

This is the point where you should take a step back. You are demonstrating you're both less charitable and less empathetic than she has been. That should raise an alarm in you.


That's another explanation. Nothing bad to read into that. Not familiar enough with Twitter to realize there was a Tweet like that that prompted hers. My fault.
I literally put that in my version.
 
Since Boogie tweeted at Quinn, here's her (all things considered) calm response:

Zoë &#699;Tom-Kun&#700; Quinn &#8207;@TheQuinnspiracy 3h

@Boogie2988 that's cool, I really care about ethics in gaming too. That's why it's important to me to expose where #gamergate came from

Zoë &#699;Tom-Kun&#700; Quinn &#8207;@TheQuinnspiracy 3h

@Boogie2988 I don't think we can have a real convo on ethics and transparency using a harassment campaign as a leg to stand on though
 
I see. I rescind my statement. I have high-functioning autism (or so it has been said), and I was only barely aware of this term. Having said that, I'm not sure what part of her article could have been inflammatory in that manner, but it's no skin off my back.

Quite simple, honestly! This line:

They don’t know how to dress or behave.

A completely harmless trait that's fairly common for quite a few people with autism & other things that'd be classified as non-neurotypical.

Descirbing this as a negative trait in her article can be seen as an (unintentional) attack on people who have trouble adhering to social ques.

She (imho opinion, rightfully) apologized for it.

That's another explanation. Nothing bad to read into that. Not familiar enough with Twitter to realize there was a Tweet like that that prompted hers. My fault.

Yeaah it's just unfortunate to shove something that discriminatory into someone's mouth. /: (also be careful using terms like that on GAF, I'm fairly sure it's on the no-no list.)
 
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