Yeh I just checked. I'm surprised by the number of slurs and urban acronyms that I have no clue what they mean in the past few weeks.
I had a rare encounter with a racist today.
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Yeh I just checked. I'm surprised by the number of slurs and urban acronyms that I have no clue what they mean in the past few weeks.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I don't know how many times this has to be repeated before you start to understand, it seems like you're purposely being obtuse to try and get a rise out of people but hey, I'll try and educate you once again.
'Orient' is an antiquated term that was commonly used to describe a region, it could refer to anything east of Europe but was usually reserved for describing Asia. 'Oriental' by extension is an adjective used to describe people, countries, and goods, but once again, is considered an outdated term that emerged (in relation to Asia) during the height of European imperialism. In the modern world we don't use 'Orient' to describe a region, people refer to the continent of Asia. We also don't refer to people as 'Oriental' anymore because it can be considered offensive. Oriental is a word you use to describe an object like a rug or lamp, not a human being.
Like I already explained to you, this can make a person feel de-humanized, like they are a tool or object to be used and cast aside whenever the owner chooses to. You know, kind of like the experience indigenous peoples all over the world had with their European overlords during the 17th-20th centuries. I'm not sure if you've realized this yet but imperialism was hell for the indigenous populations Europeans placed under their control. The whole idea was to milk a country of their natural resources, enslave the population for labor or favor one ethnic group over another to create resentment and internal strife instead of a unified opposition, suppress or destroy the existing culture which was seen as 'savage' or sub-human' and replace it with Eurocentric propaganda..I could go on. So knowing this, why the hell would a person want to be referred to a term that hearkens back to the good old days of racism, subjugation, and exploitation from European men? See how that could piss a person off? Occident isn't offensive because it's a term created by white men to describe Western Europe. These people weren't on the receiving end of the atrocities I just described, they were the perpetrators.
And how exactly do Asians have subordinate status in the world today? That is an outright racist thing for you to claim.
As someone also from Asian descent, I find the word Oriental perfectly acceptable. I'm the brown type of Asian (India, Nepal, Pakistan.. etc.) When I hear Oriental, I think of slant eyed Asians. Asia is a huge continent and we all look different. A good chunk of Russia is in Asia, so there are white Asians as well.
Anyway, Oriental was pretty commonly heard when I was living in Sydney (I'm American). Sydney is full of people from all over Asia, so it helped differentiate.
I think OP is overreacting, and it doesn't really matter much anyway; we're all human.
Anyway, Oriental was pretty commonly heard when I was living in Sydney (I'm American). Sydney is full of people from all over Asia, so it helped differentiate.
I think OP is overreacting, and it doesn't really matter much anyway; we're all human.
Weird conversation. I've encountered some really southern or old people who say 'oriental' referring to people, but for you to say it was offensive and him to push the issue? I mean, what does he have to gain... it's basic human respect if someone finds a word offensive don't use it around them at the very least.
That's not how it works. If someone tells me what I said was offensive, I wouldn't be asking for proof. I would apologize for my ignorance and look it up on my own time.
But don't worry, my offensive is only for shits and giggles.
That is the literal opposite of what it says on Wikipedia! lol
Technically that Wikipedia statement has no source.
Looking it up in the Oxford, Cambridge and Collins dictionaries only Oxford makes reference to it's offensive nature. The other two make no mention of it.
So it goes to show that depending on where you look it up you can get a different picture of the offensiveness of the word. Guess the OP is lucky the father went to a source that did say it was an offensive term.
It is offensive. As with all things offensive, a useful litmus test I employ is that of the opinion of Supreme Court Associate Justice Potter Stewart. In Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964), a case regarding a screening of a film deemed to be obscene, he famously wrote that in terms of identifying obscene material (in this case, hardcore pornography) that "I know it when I see it". Using that and applying it here, we can argue word origins and historical meanings, but the base of the matter is that no one should ever be told what they can and cannot be offended by should they feel strong enough to object. Also, words have meanings and these often change within society over time.
I get a lot of this on twitter (shocking, i know) being involved in the social media movement to change the name of the Washington DC football team. A lot of proponents of a name change also get unfairly targeted and slandered, particularly amongst team fans who initially claim "honor and tradition" but quickly turn nasty with derogatory and racially-driven comments, obscenities, and other filth. A lot of the reasons brought up here from those who disagree about whether or not something is offensive get tossed around first, but usually it descends into useless arguing.
I get a lot of this on twitter (shocking, i know) being involved in the social media movement to change the name of the Washington DC football team. A lot of proponents of a name change also get unfairly targeted and slandered, particularly amongst team fans who initially claim "honor and tradition" but quickly turn nasty with derogatory and racially-driven comments, obscenities, and other filth. A lot of the reasons brought up here from those who disagree about whether or not something is offensive get tossed around first, but usually it descends into useless arguing.
But that's not the point. The person kept bringing up that OP was oriental this and that and being a bigot about race. Kinda like if a white person keeps asking me what do dogs taste like and shit.
kurisu_1974
Banned
Rest assured, I'm not worried. I don't know much people that are easily offended by words, and to be honest, I'm not really looking for their company either.
It can influence how much we care about said person being offended.
You can use South Asian and East Asian.
It doesn't seem nice to continue using a term if it's offensive in a country you're staying in, just because it might be okay somewhere else.
The man started off a bit weird already when he kept going on about "orientalness" and then he doubled down when she told him it wasn't acceptable nomenclature. I think her reaction is understandable.
Words mean things, language is powerful etc.
if someone called you something you don't like what would you say to them?
Amory
Member
I don't entirely understand why the word "oriental" is offensive. It's definitely a generalization, but I don't see how it's all that different from calling someone "Asian" or "European" rather than their specific country's demonym.
But then again I'm not Asian so it doesn't really matter what I think. I just don't use the word. Easy enough.
But then again I'm not Asian so it doesn't really matter what I think. I just don't use the word. Easy enough.
Even though oriental was never my choice of words to use when describing people of asian descent. When I learned that some find it offensive around 5 years ago, I simply enough just struck it from my vocabulary.
If you nicely explained and he became defensive; he probably has very strong opinions about race. That being said, I don't think he meant anything bad by using the word. He was just uninformed and thats understandable and hard to fault him with. The problem is him becoming so defensive about it. All he had to do was say, "Oh, I didn't know, I apologize," and the conversation could have continued.
I really don't understand why there is so much push back against "political correctness". It's not being "PT", it's being respectful to those people. Not all people of Asian descent are offended by the term, "oriental" but why not respect the people that are?
If you nicely explained and he became defensive; he probably has very strong opinions about race. That being said, I don't think he meant anything bad by using the word. He was just uninformed and thats understandable and hard to fault him with. The problem is him becoming so defensive about it. All he had to do was say, "Oh, I didn't know, I apologize," and the conversation could have continued.
I really don't understand why there is so much push back against "political correctness". It's not being "PT", it's being respectful to those people. Not all people of Asian descent are offended by the term, "oriental" but why not respect the people that are?
Gucci Messiah
Banned
I don't even know where to start with this post...
First off, just because you are an Asian and do not happen to find the word offensive doesn't mean that nobody else has a right to. Considering the historical significance of the word which I described here, I think that it is perfectly reasonable for a person to feel uncomfortable or get upset over its usage.
Second, 'Oriental' is an adjective used to describe a group of people, culture, region, or object. I've already explained that many people view it outdated in the context of referring to people, shared cultures, and regions. We don't refer to anything east of Europe as 'the Orient' anymore; there's Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Southeast Asia, etc. This isn't 1790 anymore.
Another issue I have is with your use of the term 'slant eyed Asians'. If you could refrain from using that, I'd appreciate it. And once again, using the 'I grew up with it' or 'I have friends who use it so it's cool' excuses don't fly in my opinion. The OP was not overreacting, if somebody if offended by a term then the rational thing to do is apologize and not use it in front of them.
Are you a white male? That's the only reasonable explanation for you to be saying 'lol I can't believe these pansies are offended by words, I don't want to be around people like that.'
Read through the thread and you might start to understand
kurisu_1974
Banned
I would either ignore them, or say somethign that they'd like even less to annoy them.
I'm not sure I'm actually offendable.
That's racist.
Alcoholikaust
Member
Except that's completely and utterly wrong. The term is much older than European imperialism. It dates back to the Roman Empire. Also, the orient isn't just Asia, so using "Asian" instead doesn't even make sense. The Ottoman empire for example was "oriental" and conquered large parts of Europe, and the Ottoman empire is neither Asian nor was it belittled or suppressed by "imperialist Europe". There were many very powerful oriental empires throughout history, and those were largely seen either as threats or business partners, so the whole "European imperialism" thing makes no sense whatsoever.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
How many shits and giggles did that earn you
I've always lumped in calling an Asian an "Oriental" with the same sort of old-world mentality that's used to call someone of African descent a "Negro". Sure, it's less offensive than outright calling someone (insert outright derogatory term here) or whatever, but it's not exactly a term without some negative history attached to it.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
So are you going to answer the question or just keep on deflecting by saying nonsense like this:
I mean honestly, these are responses I'd expect from a privileged white male who doesn't know what it's like to be discriminated against or called a hateful slur just because of the color of their skin or an extremely immature individual who lacks real world experience. Either way, it's not a good look.
Ah right so nigger is just a 'word' and people shouldn't be offended by it. Faggot is just a 'word' too and people shouldn't be offended by it either yeah?
This is absolutely bizzarre and facinating to me.
It's a coordinate, a cardinal direction, is calling people from the south in the US "southerners" offensive then? Because I see everyone from there using it without restriction. Sometimes as a pejorative (actually most of the times to be honest).
Eddie Griffin
Banned
I understand you were upset but you saying this just doesn't even remotely make sense. That should have never come out.
But i will agree he was in the wrong, but remember depending on where you are from and were you grew up it was probably a common thing. Plus, he may have not really had a close conversation with your type of person before so they just use what they knew. I'm sure he wasn't really TRYING to be offensive.
kurisu_1974
Banned
I guess they can be offended, but really what will it accomplish?
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Looks like you glossed over the part where I mentioned I was talking about use of the word in relation to Asia. Any yahoo can jump on wikipedia and say 'bu..but you're wrong, the term dates back to the Roman Empire!' I'm well aware but that's completely missing the point being made and straying into strawman territory. So no, I am not 'completely and utterly wrong'.
That betrays your initial point then. If you're honestly puzzled as to why someone feels a way over the usage of a word directed towards them but you in response to someone using a word against you that you're not fond of you use a word they don't like back "just to annoy them" demonstrates that know words have power. Furthermore who are you to dictate to anyone how they should respond to anyone being called a name when you aren't exactly being a role model here yourself? You sound like a terrible person.
not to mention that it's not really up for debate. Like, at all. There's almost no point to responding to most of the posts in this thread. She never asked for our opinions on whether she had the right to be offended or thether you though she did or if you would also be offended. She thought this grown man arguing with her over a term he kept referring to her as after she told him she found it offensive was racist. And not due to the fact that he used the word, but the fact that he was consistently touching on race, and then got combative when she compared his actions and defenses to someone who IS racist.
Why can't we take words in context? If you need to consult google to tell me why you're offended by a word, you might want to rethink your stance. Listen to what the person is saying and how they are saying it, not just a single word. The desire to label is crazy, not everything is black and white, right or wrong.
Byakuya769
Member
I've had to explain this to middle-aged people a couple of times. Luckily they responded with "that what we used to call them, I had no idea" instead of "they're too sensitive, it's not offensive."
Sometimes I wonder if someone other than the affected race is the better messenger for stuff like that, because people want to prove so badly that they're not racist that they'll be completely racially insensitive to a person they think is accusing them if racism (explicitly or implicitly).
Oh gotdayum, people are seriously telling OP to stop overreacting!?! The guy clearly didn't care about her feelings.
Sometimes I wonder if someone other than the affected race is the better messenger for stuff like that, because people want to prove so badly that they're not racist that they'll be completely racially insensitive to a person they think is accusing them if racism (explicitly or implicitly).
Oh gotdayum, people are seriously telling OP to stop overreacting!?! The guy clearly didn't care about her feelings.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
How many times are you going to not-read the thread and drop the same tired nonsense
GravityMan
Member
I agree with this, particularly the bolded. OP might have avoided the awkward situation with her roommate this way. That said, being blatantly subjected to offensive comments like that can cause some people to lash out in the heat of the moment.
kurisu_1974
Banned
No, me not actually being offended doesn't mean people can freely talk shit to me. And I'm really actually super nice too so you're wrong on all counts.
And for the guy obsessed with my skin color, it's sickly white indeed.
The term isn't used "in relation to Asia" - it's used to describe the Near and Middle East and North Africa. In Europe, that is. The Romans also called China, Iran and India "orient", but those were powerful empires at the time as well. So what does "European imperialism in relation to Asia" mean, exactly?
This is such an incredibly bizarre statement. It's an emotional reaction. Where does 'accomplish' come into it?
This is getting very weird. If you're not 'offended' then why do you think people are 'talking shit' to you?
Embarrassment, maybe?
Perhaps the offence was pointed out in a manner that provoked defensiveness? I know I've sometimes stuck up for myself when I shouldn't because the person that put me on the back foot was fairly aggressive in calling me out. Sometimes you know that you're not literally in the wrong, and that can cloud you to the fact that your words or actions are having a negative effect regardless of any intent or definition that you might fall back on.
In an ideal world, people wouldn't allow knee-jerk emotions to colour their reactions to stuff like this, but this ain't an ideal world. I'm also not sure that there is a 'normal' reaction, and even if there is I'm not sure it's the one that you've proposed.
If you want to play the "educate" and "rise" card then please do not enter discussions. We're having a discussion not a "who is right" discussion.
You say in relation to Asia during European imperialism. Do you have evidence of this? Its usage is known to be far older than European imperilism so in relation to Asia is meaningless.
People can feel dehumanized over a lot of words even with words like exotic. You have to research and learn about the word and why it is offensive. Currently reading the book someone suggested from Amazon (kindle so gud).
Was "oriental" specifically used or even casually used as a way to subjugate people? (it's glossing-ish it over in the book)
In your view the people who use a historical word that designated a region and then those people who conquered the region tainted that word?
How is that racist? It's not like ever color of man is equal in today's age.
Byakuya769
Member
"Don't suggest that I'm racist! I'm nice to you people despite your flaws!!!"
kurisu_1974
Banned
So we can easily dismiss it, as it's just irrational emotions.
Being offended by nigger and faggot is 'irrational' now?
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
This thread is insane. I see nothing wrong with the OP for the most part. I don't think he was racist per se. Ignorant and stubborn probably. I actually applaud you for calling him out. Good luck with your room mate though!
kurisu_1974
Banned
I was building on what was quoted.
kurisu_1974
Banned
As soon as someone is offended, it immediately becomes one.
Because, the odds are, to the person using the word Oriental, Oriental is just a term for an Asian person. It's always been a term for Asians to them, it has no ill meaning to them (which speaks to ignorance, not vileness), so they use it like they would use truck to describe someone's SUV. A harmless term (in their eyes). Something they haven't thought twice about. Until this moment.
The OP telling this person, after they've said Oriental a few times to refer to them/their family as Oriental, that "Oriental is offensive to Asians" notes the word is kinda racist. The person interprets this, on some level, as being told that they're racist.
They're likely not making the separation between "that word is offensive and kinda racist, FYI" and "you are offensive and kinda racist for using the word, FYI". So they go on the defensive to try and establish how they're not offensive, because they think they're innocent in using an inoffensive term. In the heat of the moment, it's understandable if a person isn't thinking logically enough to get the nuance between the two.
The alternative and ideal reaction is, of course, "oh, oops, sorry", but not everyone's perfect.
I fully admit to having had no clue what occidental meant before this thread (it's a college in California, and now the name makes sense), but that's on some "Redskins is offensive? Let's ban the name Giants so we don't offend tall peopel LOL" false equivalence shit.
Even if it's for irrational reasons?
Gucci Messiah
Banned
That doesn't even make sense, usually people become confrontational when somebody 'shit talks' them because they are offended or threatened. It seems like you're trying to backpedal now after making two dumb statements that contradict each other:
I mean, first you make the claim that people shouldn't get offended by 'words' and that you don't want to be friends with those who do. The first red flag that came into my mind was that you are probably a privileged white male who has never had to deal with discrimination or racial hate speech. There's nothing wrong with being a white male, but there is an issue when you are part of the majority, which has historically held a disproportionate amount of power and influence, that is openly insensitive to others and ignorant to the emotional impact or historical context slurs have. According to you people shouldn't get bent out of shape about being called a 'nigger' or 'faggot', right? You don't want to be around them, they're just being overly sensitive.
Then when asked what your response would be if somebody called you a name, you claim you would ignore them (doubtful) or call them something they'd like even less. This clearly shows that you understand the power of words and their ability to hurt people. You know darn well what's offensive and what isn't, not sure why you're sitting here trying to claim otherwise and act like this stuff doesn't matter.
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