I think Glasgow is a yes, just how much of a yes might be the decider as it's one of the last places to call.
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Scottish Independence Referendum |OT| 18 September 2014 [Up: NO wins]
- Thread starter Ape Gone Insane
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I think Glasgow is a yes, just how much of a yes might be the decider as it's one of the last places to call.
Have you not seen the Gibraltar macaques - they'd be inside in five minutes typing '00000000' on the launch consoles on the off-chance of receiving a bite of your sandwich
CyclopsRock
Member
I've punched one - literally punched one. (My girlfriend used to live there, me and the monkeys have unfinished business).
John Dunbar
correct about everything
what they need is to get ja rule's views on the matter.
JonathanEx
Member
Sounds about right for what Better Together would do.
Aah, to wish for a decent opposition. Story of politics that, I guess.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I can't really think of anyone more pointless. Has Beckham ever been to Scotland?
Hot Coldman
Banned
ahahaha
QuicheFontaine
Member
I'm not sure I'm in favour of nuclear weapons either, but you don't spend billions on them just to retaliate if someone else nukes you, they're a deterrent to conventional warfare or general dickheadery from other countries as well.
For example (and I'm not saying the same situation is likely to happen to iScotland in the near future, but still), there are probably a lot of people in Ukraine right now who wish they hadn't given up their nukes or were under NATO's umbrella.
EDIT: If they're really wheeling out Becks then all hope is lost.
I understand your point, but Scotland's near neighbour, the Republic of Ireland, does not have nuclear capability (and would not be allowed to by the international community) -
do you think Dubliners feel less protected in this world than Glaswegians?
Scotland has long sought a solution to nonstandard mince pie sizes and randomly sized black puddings.
You can't compare this to a trade. Scotland is already under the jurisdiction of both London and Brussels; for better or worse, they'd be permanently ditching at least one of those two - maybe even both, depending on how accession talks fare.
London has more power than Brussels, anyway. The latter may be an irritant, but its remit is at least defined by treaty law and the principle of subsidiarity. Westminster may have tentatively accepted a measure of devolution, but it retains a great degree of power and practical control over Scotland and all parts of the UK.
Even if Scotland rejoined the EU, it would still regain full sovereignty over policy areas such as defence and taxation for the first time in several hundred years. Unlike London, Brussels has virtually no say in these most crucial determinants of sovereignty.
That's not to say Scotland should necessarily seek to join the EU, or even that it should leave the UK. I'm just a little tired of the Brussels bogeyman needlessly dragging down the debate about more important issues (ie. currency union, nuclear policy, etc) - Farage in particular seems to do this, and it's incredibly frustrating.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Scotts-GAF I have to know is your National Animal really the Unicorn
Holy Shit John Oliver on Last Week Tonight, FUCKING SLAYED Me tonight
I was in Tears throughout it
Scotts-GAF I never knew all about this/care/or even concerned me, but Holy Shit you guys deserve just for that
When the show gets uploaded to youtube, please give a watch, people who love this show in America + HBO, best fuck thing ever
Holy Shit John Oliver on Last Week Tonight, FUCKING SLAYED Me tonight
I was in Tears throughout it
Scotts-GAF I never knew all about this/care/or even concerned me, but Holy Shit you guys deserve just for that
When the show gets uploaded to youtube, please give a watch, people who love this show in America + HBO, best fuck thing ever
Because the EU is a nothing like the UK. The EU can be left at will as sovereignty is merely delegated from the states, not surrendered in perpetuity. The EU's *scope* is also faaaaar narrower than that of any state.
CyclopsRock
Member
More or less the entire "no" campaign in Scotland are made up of Scottish people. Sensibly, they didn't want the "no" side to look like a bunch of English people trying to keep them in the union against their own interests. Typically who ends up on TV has more to do with the show's Producer rather than any thing else.
So those "Devo-Max" solutions Better Together have proposed even though they have absolutely no agreement between them on what's better, no ability to guarantee they'll be able to enact them or that subsequent parliaments wouldn't just undo them...not so much devo-max as Devo-nudge.
Good to see we have your backing after watching some stereotypes about Scottland.
anonymous_abc
Member
I would expect it to be like election night.
Probably much easier to count though. So quicker and less information overall to take in and process.
I doubt it's worth taking the next day off work though. You will have pretty precise results before you go to bed.
GazzaScotland
Member
Counts should start getting announced about 1am think. However you need to remember that this will be the highest turnout in Scotland so hundreds of thousands of extra votes to be counted. Plus no doubt there will be a recount in a lot of areas that could slow things down.
We might also learn the result before all votes have been counted in the 32 regions (when it becomes mathematically impossible for the other side to come back).
Between 6-8am seems to be the predictions for when this will happen but again, recounts and turnout could delay this.
We might also learn the result before all votes have been counted in the 32 regions (when it becomes mathematically impossible for the other side to come back).
Between 6-8am seems to be the predictions for when this will happen but again, recounts and turnout could delay this.
It might be a pretty dull night, I don't believe anyone is doing any exit polling.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
i don't particularly hold an interest in it going either way, but i am interested in what happens. would be interesting to see Scotland be its own country, i guess.
real_slime
Banned
i made a topic a while ago about how i thought it definitely wasn't gonna happen and i was sad, but then all the polls changed and there's been yes activism all over fucking glasgow for weeks now and
now i'm gonna be even more bummed when it doesn't happen
(faint pang of hope strikes)
vote yes, friends...for us all...
now i'm gonna be even more bummed when it doesn't happen
(faint pang of hope strikes)
vote yes, friends...for us all...
I've been thinking about this for a while but I think the break up of the Union is inevitable. The whole country has been London centric at the expense of the the rest of the country for the last three decades and I say this as a Londoner.
If Scotland do decide to stay, I'd like to see the Union become a Federation like the US. Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and possibly even a 'Northern county' (Yorkshire/Lancashire) would have pretty much full autonomy with various tax varying and collection powers. Defense and other controls would still be covered by Westminster.
That way each region can 'govern' themselves in all key areas but have the support of the rest of the country should some assistance be required.
If Scotland do decide to stay, I'd like to see the Union become a Federation like the US. Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and possibly even a 'Northern county' (Yorkshire/Lancashire) would have pretty much full autonomy with various tax varying and collection powers. Defense and other controls would still be covered by Westminster.
That way each region can 'govern' themselves in all key areas but have the support of the rest of the country should some assistance be required.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'm sympathetic to the idea of federalism, but I don't understand how people think it's the solution to their diagnosis. If the problem is London-centric policy making, how is making the South East able to keep all of its tax to spend on itself going to help Birmingham or Manchester compete with it for talent and business?
QuicheFontaine
Member
I don't think that's true (although it depends when you go to bed). The link provided by JonathonEx earlier said that the polls only close at 10pm. The results will be coming in from 1am onwards, with most pouring in between 3-6am.
Edit:
I haven't really thought this through, but maybe areas with lower property prices / costs of living / etc. could lower their regional tax rates to attract business?
Counts are expected to start from about 0200, but final results won't be available until 0700 or so.
http://www.timjohns.org/2014/09/13/what-time-will-the-scottish-referendum-results-come-in/
I think Northerners are currently treated far worse than the Scots, which is why this whole thing is so frustrating. As a result of devolution, there's free Uni fees, free domicilliary care, and many others perks living in Scotland. There's no devolution up north so we're just stick with all decisions coming from London.
Campaign for it then.
nelsonroyale
Member
That is not quite true, many parts in the north of Scotland get it at least as bad as the north of England. Shoddy and over-priced transport links, slow internet, high petrol prices, higher delivery costs. You name it. I agree that the north of England has been severly neglected, but don't make it seem as if Scotland is a lump sum. There are a lot of places around Glasgow as well which were affected by Thatcher's de-industrialisation as well...
Anyway, that is an issue, but the one this thread is discussing. Scotland has proposed a viable alternative. The north of England needs to mobilise and push for change as well.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I think you can talk about Scotland as a lump sum for some things. In fact, the two thing pswii60 brought up (free Uni fees, free domicilliary care) are Scottish benefits, and it doesn't matter where in Scotland you are. Things like high delivery prices, expensive petrol, poor internet and transport are just downsides to living a long distance from everyone else.
anonymous_abc
Member
They need 3 hours to count votes?
Wont some (most) be much quicker than that to report?
CyclopsRock
Member
That's true, but we have Enterprise Zones already, most of which are outside London. I'm honestly not sure how well they do but... I dunno, I feel that there wouldn't be too many places putting in the changes you suggest. Whilst I personally lather myself in a misty haze of jizz every night at the thought of significant supply side reforms, I know I'm something of a minority in that aspect, and the idea of a local federalised parliament in the North East implementing significant pro-enterprise supply side reforms by slashing business taxes and income taxes on new hires, removing planning restrictions etc seems simultaneously wonderful and utterly impossible to believe. It's already far more expensive to set up a business in London yet people do it a lot; it'll take a hell of a stimulus to reverse that trend without actively hamstringing London.
Surely all of those are the result of living in a geographically more sparse and large area though, rather than a natural result of government neglect?
I hope Scotland doesn't get screwed over post independence but I am of the opinion that freedom comes at a price. You are merely swapping one set of politicians for another.
If Westminister is unfair now, wait till you become a separate entity.
JonathanEx
Member
Don't say that, I can imagine Yorkshire would push for independence.
(I know there's more Northern places, but... Yorkshire would.)
Are there no perks to living in the north over London?
Starwolf_UK
Member
It seems to be. Wonder if it will remain one of the Queen's Beasts?
The UK really does have a lot of national animals though...
Napoleonthechimp
Member
The financial stuff won't fly. If a currency union is to go through (and ensure economic stability for Scotland) then the UK will demand more control than what the SNP is offering (which is already substantial) + you'll have no political representation.
The UK government is beholden to the taxpayers and the value of pound directly affects public services, spending etc. The SNP would basically have to give complete control of their finances to a foreign power, only this time they'll have no political representation.
The fact that Salmond is demanding this of you should appall you.
But the way that the yes campaign is approaching things makes me think their mentality is still stuck in the devo-max mindset. If the yes vote fails and the devo-max thing (eventually) gets through I've got to wonder if that would be the SNP's original goal, because if not then the details of their policies (specifically the financial aspects of it) paint them as naive fools.
And there is no way England would be allowed to fly apart at the seams. It's an absurd idea. Renewed interest in devolution for those regions is the most that'll happen.
The UK government is beholden to the taxpayers and the value of pound directly affects public services, spending etc. The SNP would basically have to give complete control of their finances to a foreign power, only this time they'll have no political representation.
The fact that Salmond is demanding this of you should appall you.
But the way that the yes campaign is approaching things makes me think their mentality is still stuck in the devo-max mindset. If the yes vote fails and the devo-max thing (eventually) gets through I've got to wonder if that would be the SNP's original goal, because if not then the details of their policies (specifically the financial aspects of it) paint them as naive fools.
Independence? Given that they've already voted against devolution proposals I really doubt it.
And there is no way England would be allowed to fly apart at the seams. It's an absurd idea. Renewed interest in devolution for those regions is the most that'll happen.
CyclopsRock
Member
Also, being English I'm going to Center Parcs this weekend, which will really fuck up my ability to keep up with the coverage on thursday evening. I *am* off work on Friday, as a result, but I'll be cycling and going in the Subtropical Swimming Paradise all day so I need my rest.
So inconvenient.
So inconvenient.
QuicheFontaine
Member
3 hours sounds pretty realistic to me. But I don't have any information other than what's been provided. JonathonEx said that the person who compiled that timeline is a Producer for Radio 2, so I'm going to assume they know what they're talking about.
GazzaScotland
Member
All depends on the areas. Up north for example there is temporary work being doing at helicopter landing pads to try speed up the process of getting votes to the counting locations.
The main issues though will be the huge turnout and possibility of a large number of recounts. Going to be a long night.
nelsonroyale
Member
Yes, and a system can compensate to a degree for asymmetrical geographic distributions, as is done in Norway and other Scandanvian countries to a degree. Again, go up to Wick in the north, you will somewhere as degraded, depressing as anywhere in England. You make it seem as a given, but providing worse services in more geographically isolated places is a choice, sure and economically sound choice, but a choice nonetheless. Technical capacity is there to provide excellent services even at the periphery. That should be the aim, to maximise the benefits of modern technology to integrate even outlying regions.
JonathonEx: Many Yorkshire peeps have moved up to the north of Scotland, and are probably voting against independence. The ones up here are not usually the most progressive folk.
JonathanEx
Member
For fans of more pointlessly long detail on the challenges and what they have to do, I found this: http://www.electionsscotland.info/d...ing_for_2014_scottish_independence_referendum
I'm just trying to add some much-needed light heartedness occasionally. But man, that Yorkshire pride.
Doing a wee bit of study today to firm up my voting intention.
One thing I'm surprised hasn't come up more is that as per the ONS's own figures when allocated a geographical share of it's oil and gas revenue Scotland has actually ran a surplus over the last 32 years (as far back as the ONS's records goes). Of course it's been in running a deficit since 2002 but one far less than the UK average.
That puts a slightly different spin on the notion of accepting the debt.
One thing I'm surprised hasn't come up more is that as per the ONS's own figures when allocated a geographical share of it's oil and gas revenue Scotland has actually ran a surplus over the last 32 years (as far back as the ONS's records goes). Of course it's been in running a deficit since 2002 but one far less than the UK average.
That puts a slightly different spin on the notion of accepting the debt.
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