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[Acorn]

I think it's worth remembering during this discussion that Ed Miliband is the leader of the UK Labour party. Maybe Lamont really is the best they have!

Lamont makes Miliband look like Churchill

 

[Nicktendo86]

I didn't suggest five years for an independence referendum, nor would I say right now that would be reasonable unless there is some visible sea change in the appetite for it in the very near future.
20, 15, maybe even 10 years though? Sure.

And leave the country in a perpetual state of flux with business, people, everyone not knowing whether the UK will be together for the foreseeable future? What happens if Scotland votes yes but a small margin, should there then be referendums every 10 years in case people want to join back up?

It's madness, we need some stability. We saw how jumpy the markets got, how many business were looking at moving to England, this should always be a once in a generation thing which the SNP agreed. Salmond even said once in a lifetime. They should stick by that and call for unity.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

And leave the country in a perpetual state of flux with business, people, everyone not knowing whether the UK will be together for the foreseeable future? What happens if Scotland votes yes but a small margin, should there then be referendums every 10 years in case people want to join back up?

It's madness, we need some stability. We saw how jumpy the markets got, how many business were looking at moving to England, this should always be a once in a generation thing which the SNP agreed. Salmond even said once in a lifetime. They should stick by that and call for unity.

I don't think he ever said once in a lifetime in respect to what he would do, just what he expected Westminster would be willing to give. A generation of voters is only 16 years; if the SNP can get a majority together again for 2030, then they have every right to have another referendum. The Union should be something that requires continuous commitment and renewal.

 

[Masquerader]

Ed was the best choice from those available, with the possible exception of Andy Burnham who was never going to win anyway. If Ed's brother or Ed Balls had been chosen, Labour would still be in a civil war now, and Diane Abbott is awful. Ed may not be a great media face, but the Labour party is surprisingly stable given it has a history of brutal self-destruction after leaving office.

Surprisingly true. As much as I hate this (probably misquoted) quote, he is not the Labour leader that it deserves, but the Labour leader that it needs.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Surprisingly true. As much as I hate this (probably misquoted) quote, he is not the Labour leader that it deserves, but the Labour leader that it needs.

So the media will hunt him because he can take it. Because he's not our Blair. He's a silent administrator, a watchful negotiator. A dark sight.

 

[operon]

Ed was the best choice from those available, with the possible exception of Andy Burnham who was never going to win anyway. If Ed's brother or Ed Balls had been chosen, Labour would still be in a civil war now, and Diane Abbott is awful. Ed may not be a great media face, but the Labour party is surprisingly stable given it has a history of brutal self-destruction after leaving office.

Ed was even the best choice from the milibands. If he is the best that Labour has they are in trouble

 

[operon]

I can't see Scotland going for another referendum again until they have had devo max for a while and all the questions like currency etc can be asked. Because if they don't what's the point they will likely get the same answer

 

[Masquerader]

So the media will hunt him because he can take it. Because he's not our Blair. He's a silent administrator, a watchful negotiator. A dark sight.

Batband.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I don't think he ever said once in a lifetime in respect to what he would do, just what he expected Westminster would be willing to give. A generation of voters is only 16 years; if the SNP can get a majority together again for 2030, then they have every right to have another referendum. The Union should be something that requires continuous commitment and renewal.

By referendum though? Godelsmetric brought up the EU on the previous page (100ppp master race!), and our last referendum on that was 1975 with the next one maaaaaybe coming in 2017.

Edit:

Miliband is more like a dark blight

Edit2: dark shite?

 

[Nicktendo86]

I really, really hope we get an English Parliament with the same powers as the Scottish one with the increased devolution being promised, will be so interesting to see how different policy from the two governments will compare. I mean I know there are some differences between Scotland and England but we are not THAT different, so will be interesting to see how a more socialist SNP (assuming they continue to beat Labour, as I suspect they will) fare against a Tory led English government. Especially in terms of things like benefits and jobs.

I think there are exciting times ahead, we are looking towards the biggest shakeup in out constitution for decades, perhaps centuries.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

By referendum though? Godelsmetric brought up the EU on the previous page (100ppp master race!), and our last referendum on that was 1975 with the next one maaaaaybe coming in 2017.

I'm fully in favour of an EU referendum, just as I was in favour of this referendum. I'd campaign for remaining within it, but I still think that the option should be made available to people.

EDIT: An English parliament would be a shit idea. England is not as internally cohesive as Scotland is (not saying Scotland is completely cohesive, just more so than England). An English parliament would see the North pushed away just as much as Scotland has been. Regional assemblies is an infinitely better idea.

 

[Acorn]

By referendum though? Godelsmetric brought up the EU on the previous page (100ppp master race!), and our last referendum on that was 1975 with the next one maaaaaybe coming in 2017.

Wasn't that like a 70-30 result though? And it's largely been a Tory civil war since that time with the public not really caring until Lisbon.

 

[Rodhull]

I can't see Scotland going for another referendum again until they have had devo max for a while and all the questions like currency etc can be asked. Because if they don't what's the point they will likely get the same answer

Well there isn't any likelihood of Devo Max anytime soon so hard to see when a time of Scotland having had it for a while will happen.

 

[Kathian]

Ed was the best choice from those available, with the possible exception of Andy Burnham who was never going to win anyway. If Ed's brother or Ed Balls had been chosen, Labour would still be in a civil war now, and Diane Abbott is awful. Ed may not be a great media face, but the Labour party is surprisingly stable given it has a history of brutal self-destruction after leaving office.

Agree with this; no Blairite candidate is going to be Labour leader long.
Ed's greatest strength has been his scalping ability of Cameron's cabinet; much in part because theres little mud to sling back.

David would not have lasted two years and would probably have told people he was considering voting Tory just to look relevant.

Miliband needs to dither a bit more; hes rushed out statements a few times and is sometimes too keen to be in front of the press (though maybe not a terrible thing I guess) for questioning.

He'd be a good Prime Minister of a good cabinet; unfortuantly hes surrounded by people who think the point in politics is to be in power or to be centre-right. The lack of imaginative policies is quite astounding.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Wasn't that like a 70-30 result though? And it's largely been a Tory civil war since that time with the public not really caring until Lisbon.

Good question. I didn't know off the top of my head, but I just looked it up and 67-33. So yeah, pretty comprehensive.

 

[Acorn]

Agree with this; no Blairite candidate is going to be Labour leader long.
Ed's greatest strength has been his scalping ability of Cameron's cabinet; much in part because theres little mud to sling back.

David would not have lasted two years and would probably have told people he was considering voting Tory just to look relevant.

Miliband needs to dither a bit more; hes rushed out statements a few times and is sometimes too keen to be in front of the press (though maybe not a terrible thing I guess) for questioning.

He'd be a good Prime Minister of a good cabinet; unfortuantly hes surrounded by people who think the point in politics is to be in power or to be centre-right. The lack of imaginative policies is quite astounding.

Ed isn't really inspiring me on the policy front. He has said some good things but his policies don't match up with them.

They are still Tory Lite. Guess thats the only way you get votes though....yay.

 

[Nicktendo86]

EDIT: An English parliament would be a shit idea. England is not as internally cohesive as Scotland is (not saying Scotland is completely cohesive, just more so than England). An English parliament would see the North pushed away just as much as Scotland has been. Regional assemblies is an infinitely better idea.

Do not agree at all. In what way would an English parliament be any worse than the situation we have currently? Regional assemblies would just add more confusing layers, we need things to be simple.

What would be your idea of constitutional reform? The Labour line of splitting England up, so it can retain at least some semblance of power in it's northern heartlands?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Do not agree at all. In what way would an English parliament be any worse than the situation we have currently? Regional assemblies would just add more confusing layers, we need things to be simple.

The North of England and the South of England are worlds apart politically, socially, geographically. If you have an English parliament, which would be dominated by the more populous south, you are condemning the North to an eternal lack of representation. That's not worth the 'simplicity'.

What would be your idea of constitutional reform? The Labour line of splitting England up, so it can retain at least some semblance of power in it's northern heartlands?

What, from scratch, or as a modification of the existing system? Starting from scratch with the ability to design the entire constitution of the United Kingdom, I would have four tiers of accountability: municipal councils, county councils, regional assemblies, and parliament. The initial 'building block' would be county councils. There would be 243 of these councils, one for each of the TTWA areas defined by the ONS. Each county council would then be divided into roughly equal-population areas that function along similar socioeconomic lines to the way TTWA areas are defined, and these areas would become the municipal councils. Each council would belong to a given regional assembly; these assemblies would not be decided on a population basis, but rather on a basis of shared regional culture, history and heritage. There would be some population limit insofar as that a union of equals is easier to maintain; the smallest region should probably be no smaller than Wales, the largest no larger than London (Northern Ireland being excepted from this rule for obvious reasons). Over the entirety of the United Kingdom, there would be a single parliament. All of these bodies would be elected using party-list proportional representation.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Ed was the best choice from those available, with the possible exception of Andy Burnham who was never going to win anyway. If Ed's brother or Ed Balls had been chosen, Labour would still be in a civil war now, and Diane Abbott is awful. Ed may not be a great media face, but the Labour party is surprisingly stable given it has a history of brutal self-destruction after leaving office.

Sure thing. I'm just saying, it's not a vintage year for leadership in the Labour party. There's some promising members of the 2010 lot though, so here's to hoping that in 10 years or so they get some good leadership.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Sure thing. I'm just saying, it's not a vintage year for leadership in the Labour party. There's some promising members of the 2010 lot though, so here's to hoping that in 10 years or so they get some good leadership.

True. I think Stella Creasy is probably one to watch.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Interesting, if a little complicated. I feel the balance between complexity and accountability will be difficult to reach, I am keen to see what proposals are presented.

I get your argument that parts of England have different social, political etc leanings, but that's life. Democracy is about finding consensus and then working to accommodate as many viewpoints as possible, we can't split everything up into smaller and smaller parts.

I really feel the fairest thing would be to obtain parity with the other devolved institutions of the UK and have an English parliament. We could see then further devolution to regions is even wanted.

Anyway I feel this debate will rumble on and this is not really the thread for it, perhaps we should have a UK constitution thread when proposals are brought forward in the (hopefully) near future, apologies for derailing this one!

 

[CyclopsRock]

I think there's some virtue to splitting it up. If you don't like the idea of private provision of healthcare or something, but you think welfare needs reforming in a significant way, you're stuck. If, in a future Crab Parliament system, you had welfare dealt with at once level, the NHS at another etc you may end up with a better system where choice is a little more nuanced. As long as the responsibilities of the different legislatures is clear, and there's sufficient quality to fill that many chambers if they all have actually important stuff to do.

 

[Ding-Ding]

Region assembly's are a bad idea, unless whatever powers Scotland gets also gets devolved to English regions. If it doesn't get the same powers, the West Lothian question will remain.

However, devolution to English regions itself causes problems, as the whole idea is for greater autonomy over tax take and spend.

Now thats great if you live in London or the South East, as you live in the only two regions in the UK that has a budget surplus as tax take is alot more than your public spending (around 20% more).

If you are West England, East England or the Midlands, they will be fine as they actually break even.

Everywhere else though in the UK are in deficit. With the North East getting a mention as they receive double in public spending vs its tax take (only Wales & NI have the same high deficit)

With a smaller pot of money in the central government, the poorer regions will have a very hard time making ends meet.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

Just to round things up it seems according to the Daily Record that the Yes side were expecting to win :-

Private polling by a firm of election experts had the First Minister believing he would pull off a shock victory.

The nationalists had employed Canadian voter contact specialists First Contact to conduct secret opinion polling.

And an analysis of their findings by two leading academics in New York said the Yes campaign would win by 54 per cent to 46.

The SNP were widely thought to have the most sophisticated data-modelling system in the UK before the vote.

But it failed to call the referendum right. Salmond was devastated and announced his intention to step down as First Minister within hours .

The false impression caused by their internal polling meant the SNP leadership were confident of winning until the first local authority areas began declaring results early on Friday.

The Yes camp contacted a number of journalists at around 10pm on Thursday and gave details of a planned victory speech by Salmond.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-secret-opinion-poll-convinced-4313922

Just goes to show how inaccurate opinion polls are really. I have to wonder if that one public yes poll was done to put a fire cracker under the No votes arse to get them to turn out and vote.