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[Schattenjäger]

No one got banned for waiting and seeing. Stop acting like you're being persecuted. You're not, and no one's a martyr for the wait and see cause. People got banned for "victim" blaming. If you can find me a member who was banned for simply saying "lets wait and see" I'll concede. I've been in more than enough threads like this and no one has ever been banned for saying let's wait and see. You're not being persecuted so stop with the act.

Sorian got banned because he kept saying she should have shown her ID under the circumstances that we were told and saying it was her fault. Which she shouldn't have and it wouldnt have been if that were true. It would be the same if someone falsely claimed a white guy called him the N-word and Sorian said "Well were you acting like one?" Yeah, the story is false, but the response to the circumstance is what got him banned.

As far as discussions go plenty of people voice counter opinions in highly emotional threads without being banned. Take a look in the Michael Brown thread or the Trayvon Martin thread from last year.

It's not just about being banned ... It's also about being called a racist and not just by one person .. It's the constant pile on
That makes people not want to contribute to the discussion at hand

 

[Mononoke]

No one got banned for waiting and seeing. Stop acting like you're being persecuted. You're not, and no one's a martyr for the wait and see cause. People got banned for "victim" blaming. If you can find me a member who was banned for simply saying "lets wait and see" I'll concede. I've been in more than enough threads like this and no one has ever been banned for saying let's wait and see. You're not being persecuted so stop with the act.

Sorian got banned because he kept saying she should have shown her ID under the circumstances that we were told and saying it was her fault. Which she shouldn't have and it wouldnt have been if that were true. It would be the same if someone falsely claimed a white guy called him the N-word and Sorian said "Well were you acting like one?" Yeah, the story is false, but the response to the circumstance is what got him banned.

As far as discussions go plenty of people voice counter opinions in highly emotional threads without being banned. Take a look in the Michael Brown thread or the Trayvon Martin thread from last year.

Yeah, this is what I was trying to say. Also, most of the people that were banned were basically reacting to how the forum was reacting (to the situation as presented) rather than elaborating on why they thought the forum was wrong for making assumptions. I didn't see anyone elaborating on this (who were banned). Unless I missed these posts.

It's not just about being banned ... It's also about being called a racist and not just by one person .. It's the constant pile on
That makes people not want to contribute to the discussion at hand

Can you show me a post where someone was being reasonable, and were being called a racist? That sounds awful (not saying that in sarcasm). EDIT: unless you are just saying in general, that is why people are afraid to post. Like this is a much bigger issue on the forum. Sorry, didn't mean to call you out. Just, I think if anyone is actually doing this, that's not okay. Like calling someone a racist when they disagree with them (and are being reasonable), isn't acceptable.

 

[DoktorEvil]

That's how click bait threads tend to play out. It's always about race first, facts second.

I'm sorry, but I don't recall seeing you in the earlier conversation.

Or is this a drive by post?

 

[Newt]

Yeah, by listening to the recording, the officer seems very reasonable. Seems like the actress just wanted to make a scene.



I feel like it's best to not respond to these threads emotionally, and instead logically. At least in the early phases.

 

[Keri]

LOL at the audio. "I'm on the phone with my Dad and he wants to speak with you." Who does that? That and the: "You don't have more power than me, and I'm going to show you," along with the references to her publicist. Jeez. I really hope she gets some backlash from this, because celebrities pulling the "don't you know who I am?" card drives me nuts.

 

[Vagabundo]

Someone reported them. It's their duty to check. Since they were done fucking, the police probably decided to just ask a few questions n check id - Since they were responding to a call.

You're supposed to provide id in California, and in this case, they had actually been committing a lewd act. If the witness accounts are true, the cops were responding to a proper call and doing their job. Whats the issue?

This is what I want to know. What the cops decided to do. They got a snit on because she wouldn't give them ID, because - let's just assume the reports where bullshit for a moment - she did nothing wrong. From her point of view this is just more police bullshit. She even says its happened before when she show affection to her white bf in public; someone has called the cops.

The cop has two options here:1) let it go, he wasn't going to do anything anyway, he is just following up a call and he isn't even going to do anything with their names. She might not even have ID on her and the call to 911 could have been just bullshit or 2) force the issue, he is still going to do nothing - unless he escalates the issue so he can charge her with something unrelated to the original call out - but he'll get her damn name, which he might write somewhere and wipe his ass with it later, but might just pretend to write down whatever.

My problem here is that while the cop has every right to push the issue with the ID, because he wasn't going to arrest them for anything, it was pointless to do so he should have backed down.

As it was he harassed an innocent - yeah she hasn't been charged much less convicted of anything- for her ID for no damn good reason. That's my issue.

 

[Schattenjäger]

Yeah, this is what I was trying to say. Also, most of the people that were banned were basically reacting to how the forum was reacting (to the situation as presented) rather than elaborating on why they thought the forum was wrong for making assumptions. I didn't see anyone elaborating on this (who were banned). Unless I missed these posts.



Can you show me a post where someone was being reasonable, and were being called a racist? That sounds awful (not saying that in sarcasm). EDIT: unless you are just saying in general, that is why people are afraid to post. Like this is a much bigger issue on the forum. Sorry, didn't mean to call you out. Just, I think if anyone is actually doing this, that's not okay. Like calling someone a racist when they disagree with them (and are being reasonable), isn't acceptable.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=894944

 

[Dash27]

So after all that it was another "can I see your ID" and freakout case. Very similar to the thread we had with the guy who witnessed a crime and wanted to video the police and refuse ID when they came to his door to ask him about it. And just like that case the cop is like "I'd be gone already if she showed it to me" So I'm guessing he has to check it, not optional. Although this cop reacted better than the one guy in the other thread.

So the question seems to be, should it be within the rights of the police to demand ID if they are called. Apparently they can do that in CA, but should the laws be changed.

If they dont change it, they need to get awareness out there. Seems to be a lot of confusion on what your rights are.

 

[spirity]

LOL at the audio. "I'm on the phone with my Dad and he wants to speak with you." Who does that? That and the: "You don't have more power than me, and I'm going to show you," along with the references to her publicist. Jeez. I really hope she gets some backlash from this, because celebrities pulling the "don't you know who I am?" card drives me nuts.

The "my stepmother is dying!" thing got me. Now I don't know if thats true or not, and my sympathies to her and her stepmother if it is true.

But she was clearly using anything, anything at all, just to try and squirm her way out of this. Reprehensible.

I will say though, I somewhat understand why people were quick to judge. You shouldn't have, and it was wrong to do so, and now you have egg on your face. But I get it.

 

[DoktorEvil]

This is what I want to know. What the cops decided to do. They got a snit on because she wouldn't give them ID, because - let's just assume the reports where bullshit for a moment - she did nothing wrong. From her point of view this is just more police bullshit. She even says its happened before when she show affection to her white bf in public; someone has called the cops.

The cop has two options here:1) let it go, he wasn't going to do anything anyway, he is just following up a call and he isn't even going to do anything with their names. She might not even have ID on her and the call to 911 could have been just bullshit or 2) force the issue, he is still going to do nothing - unless he escalates the issue so he can charge her with something unrelated to the original call out - but he'll get her damn name, which he might write somewhere and wipe his ass with it later, but might just pretend to write down whatever.

My problem here is that while the cop has every right to push the issue with the ID, because he wasn't going to arrest them for anything, it was pointless to do so he should have backed down.

As it was he harassed an innocent - yeah she hasn't been charged much less convicted of anything- for her ID for no damn good reason. That's my issue.

Right.

Because she was completely innocent... and because the cops have nothing better to police than two people having sex in a studio parking lot.

So fucking is public is okay because the cops didn't charge you for it, but asking for ID because of multiple calls reporting lewd acts, which IS an illegal act to have sex in public, and the cops still giving her a break despite the tantrum she threw when she was clearly in the wrong, and you're going to sit there and call her an innocent and shit on the cops for not doing anything other than the minimum of their job as a civil servant.

Some real cop hating for no reason going on here.

 

[Calamari41]

This is what I want to know. What the cops decided to do. They got a snit on because she wouldn't give them ID, because - let's just assume the reports where bullshit for a moment - she did nothing wrong. From her point of view this is just more police bullshit. She even says its happened before when she show affection to her white bf in public; someone has called the cops.

The cop has two options here:1) let it go, he wasn't going to do anything anyway, he is just following up a call and he isn't even going to do anything with their names. She might not even have ID on her and the call to 911 could have been just bullshit or 2) force the issue, he is still going to do nothing - unless he escalates the issue so he can charge her with something unrelated to the original call out - but he'll get her damn name, which he might write somewhere and wipe his ass with it later, but might just pretend to write down whatever.

My problem here is that while the cop has every right to push the issue with the ID, because he wasn't going to arrest them for anything, it was pointless to do so he should have backed down.

As it was he harassed an innocent - yeah she hasn't been charged much less convicted of anything- for her ID for no damn good reason. That's my issue.

Honestly, I think the whole thing escalated to another level when she walked away from him. You can't do that while a cop has you legally detained, no matter why they have you detained.

It's the whole "Am I free to go?" thing. No, no you are not free to go. This wasn't a random stop.

 

[Dash27]

This is what I want to know. What the cops decided to do. They got a snit on because she wouldn't give them ID, because - let's just assume the reports where bullshit for a moment - she did nothing wrong. From her point of view this is just more police bullshit. She even says its happened before when she show affection to her white bf in public; someone has called the cops.

The cop has two options here:1) let it go, he wasn't going to do anything anyway, he is just following up a call and he isn't even going to do anything with their names. She might not even have ID on her and the call to 911 could have been just bullshit or 2) force the issue, he is still going to do nothing - unless he escalates the issue so he can charge her with something unrelated to the original call out - but he'll get her damn name, which he might write somewhere and wipe his ass with it later, but might just pretend to write down whatever.

My problem here is that while the cop has every right to push the issue with the ID, because he wasn't going to arrest them for anything, it was pointless to do so he should have backed down.

As it was he harassed an innocent - yeah she hasn't been charged much less convicted of anything- for her ID for no damn good reason. That's my issue.

I dont know that he has that freedom to make that call does he? It seems like procedure was that he had to check the ID.

 

[Mononoke]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=894944

I can see why someone would react to your post the wrong way (it comes off as very harsh). ie. Cops are trained to kill. Even if that is so, people don't agree with that stance (especially when the story reports the person was shot in the back, ie. he was moving away from them). But where I agree with your post is:

Still not enough facts about this case

I don't think making that point should be met with ridicule/snark.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

This is what I want to know. What the cops decided to do. They got a snit on because she wouldn't give them ID, because - let's just assume the reports where bullshit for a moment - she did nothing wrong. From her point of view this is just more police bullshit. She even says its happened before when she show affection to her white bf in public; someone has called the cops.

The cop has two options here:1) let it go, he wasn't going to do anything anyway, he is just following up a call and he isn't even going to do anything with their names. She might not even have ID on her and the call to 911 could have been just bullshit or 2) force the issue, he is still going to do nothing - unless he escalates the issue so he can charge her with something unrelated to the original call out - but he'll get her damn name, which he might write somewhere and wipe his ass with it later, but might just pretend to write down whatever.

My problem here is that while the cop has every right to push the issue with the ID, because he wasn't going to arrest them for anything, it was pointless to do so he should have backed down.

As it was he harassed an innocent - yeah she hasn't been charged much less convicted of anything- for her ID for no damn good reason. That's my issue.

Here's the thing though- first off, she WAS (according to claims of multiple witnesses) doing multiple lewd acts in public, so hypothetical "if she didn't do anything..." arguments are irrelevant to this particular conversation. Second, she didn't say she didn't have her ID on her- she flat out refused to show it and then walked away from the police. Third, I think our definitions of "harass" are different. I think it's clear that she was much more aggressive and confrontational than the police officer. An officer responding to a call and trying to figure out what's going on isn't harassment. If cops can't do their job, then what's the point of having them?

Clearly there are big issues regarding race in America, but those issues shouldn't be used to complicate situations that have no racial basis.

 

[boiled goose]

Hope she sues them into oblivion.

And who pays for this? The taxpayers.
End up with a more underfunded department.

The people in charge need to step down and the culture needs to change. We need personal accountibility.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

No one got banned for waiting and seeing. Stop acting like you're being persecuted. You're not, and no one's a martyr for the wait and see cause. People got banned for "victim" blaming. If you can find me a member who was banned for simply saying "lets wait and see" I'll concede. I've been in more than enough threads like this and no one has ever been banned for saying let's wait and see. You're not being persecuted so stop with the act.

Sorian got banned because he kept saying she should have shown her ID under the circumstances that we were told and saying it was her fault. Which she shouldn't have and it wouldnt have been if that were true. It would be the same if someone falsely claimed a white guy called him the N-word and Sorian said "Well were you acting like one?" Yeah, the story is false, but the response to the circumstance is what got him banned.

As far as discussions go plenty of people voice counter opinions in highly emotional threads without being banned. Take a look in the Michael Brown thread or the Trayvon Martin thread from last year.

While it's not exactly "We should wait and see", this is pretty close:

i like how there is no middle ground ever on these forums.

Which was their only post in about four days. At the very least, even if you don't get banned, look back at this thread and see how people are responding to the people that who weren't ready to jump on the "Fuck the Cops" bandwagon. It's rife with shit like this:

Why am I not surprised that the usual police defenders appear?

Why am I not surprised that shit like this incident (and the guy that got arrested and missed the Emmy celebrations) continue to happen?

Why am I not surprised that people are bending themselves into knots (again) trying to see "another perspective" of what happened?

Got dammit, I am getting numb to this shit and that is a bad thing. :|

Which implies that it's somehow bad to see another perspective to a situation. Who the fuck wants to be in a discussion where people are allowed to put you down just because you don't agree with them or want to know the full story? That's going to be a shit conversation. And you wondered why I didn't want to be in the thread before this.

Sorian got banned because of bunch of people with limited information treated the situation like they knew everything. The circumstance got him banned because people didn't know the full circumstance, but decided to act like they did. The mods banned him over circumstances that weren't even true. Maybe wait until the whole story comes out and shows that he's wrong before banning him. It's jumping to conclusions. So essentially he got banned because a bunch of people didn't know what they were talking about, but acted like they did. I don't know how you don't see something wrong with that.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

It's not just about being banned ... It's also about being called a racist and not just by one person .. It's the constant pile on
That makes people not want to contribute to the discussion at hand

Well what do you expect when you have posts like these:

That's how click bait threads tend to play out. It's always about race first, facts second.

What you may not realize is that most people don't really care about "facts" and being "unbiased" until a black person is a victim. If there's a story about a black person doing a heinous crime on the news are you saying to yourself "Well let's wait and see. Let all the fact's come out". No. You're not. Black people are always assumed the criminal, the perp, the drug user, the trouble maker.

There are certain stories that people have an automatic response to. I doubt that you have a wait and see approach to EVERY news story that's posted on this board.

If there's a story about a guy brutally raping a girl you're not going to say to yourself, "Hmmm....let's wait and see until all the facts come out."

And if so you shouldn't feel proud of yourself when you condemn all the others who didn't wait and see to see if some innocent white girl was really raped or not. You shouldn't feel proud or persecuted just because a few times the guy was actually wrongfully accused. If you constantly did that with rape threads people would think you have an agenda and rightfully so. This is a discussion forum where we discuss news. Like I said, 10 pages of "Lets wait and see" is not a discussion.

 

[wildfire]

Maybe the cops wouldn't be called on her n her bf if they didnt do things like fuck in broad daylight with the door open in the middle of studio city offices.

It still remains to be seen if they were having sex or making out.

Not everyone has the fortitude to screw publicly right next to where they work..

 

[otapnam]

This is what I want to know. What the cops decided to do. They got a snit on because she wouldn't give them ID, because - let's just assume the reports where bullshit for a moment - she did nothing wrong. From her point of view this is just more police bullshit. She even says its happened before when she show affection to her white bf in public; someone has called the cops.

The cop has two options here:1) let it go, he wasn't going to do anything anyway, he is just following up a call and he isn't even going to do anything with their names. She might not even have ID on her and the call to 911 could have been just bullshit or 2) force the issue, he is still going to do nothing - unless he escalates the issue so he can charge her with something unrelated to the original call out - but he'll get her damn name, which he might write somewhere and wipe his ass with it later, but might just pretend to write down whatever.

My problem here is that while the cop has every right to push the issue with the ID, because he wasn't going to arrest them for anything, it was pointless to do so he should have backed down.

As it was he harassed an innocent - yeah she hasn't been charged much less convicted of anything- for her ID for no damn good reason. That's my issue.

It wasn't just "affection" though.

And as another poster said - in this situation, the police just check your id n tell u to cut it out.

If you get confrontational with an officer you're going to get it back. All you have to do is cooperate with the law. They're just doing their job

 

[Schattenjäger]

I can see why someone would react to your post the wrong way (it comes off as very harsh). ie. Cops are trained to kill. Even if that is so, people don't agree with that stance (especially when the story reports the person was shot in the back, ie. he was moving away from them). But where I agree with your post is:



I don't think making that point should be met with ridicule/snark.

Maybe I came off harsh with the first statement but it's actually what I learned here..
I appreciate that you also agree about the second statement.. As that's the one that seems so controversial..
There is plenty of room for reasonable discussion

 

[Vagabundo]

Right.

Because she was completely innocent... and because the cops have nothing better to police than two people having sex in a studio parking lot.

So fucking is public is okay because the cops didn't charge you for it, but asking for ID because of multiple calls reporting lewd acts, which IS an illegal act to have sex in public, and the cops still giving her a break despite the tantrum she threw when she was clearly in the wrong, and you're going to sit there and call her an innocent and shit on the cops for not doing anything other than the minimum of their job as a civil servant.

Some real cop hating for no reason going on here.

So the cops had proof that she had sex? Or you have proof? Do you have the video? Well that's withholding evidence.

I'd have no issue with the cops charging and arresting them for the crime, but they didn't have enough proof it seems. So in the meantime while they are here why not push this whole ID thing. It's irrelevant, they aren't going to even fucking record the name, just show them the ID. Why? Don't ask why. No reason other than we can. Lazy fucking cop work. Smacks of "submit to my authority". They didn't need the name because they weren't going to do shit with it. That kind of small abuse of authority rubs me the wrong way.

It's gas that people are lambasting others for jumping to conclusions before all the facts are out and are happy to tar and feather these two on the sayso of the shitrag like TMZ. I have no idea if this girl and the guy did anything in the car and neither do you. So I think she deserves some presumption of innocence.

Honestly, I think the whole thing escalated to another level when she walked away from him. You can't do that while a cop has you legally detained, no matter why they have you detained.

It's the whole "Am I free to go?" thing. No, no you are not free to go. This wasn't a random stop.

Seems like it. Although seems like a genuine mistake on her part. She mentioned something about being on the phone with her father about her stepmother who is sick. Anyway, yeah it seem to escalate from there.

I dont know that he has that freedom to make that call does he? It seems like procedure was that he had to check the ID.

Well considering that he didn't file a report - according to the original article - I'd guess that it is within his discretion. Hard to guess.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Well what do you expect when you have posts like these:

What you may not realize is that most people don't really care about "facts" and being "unbiased" until a black person is a victim. If there's a story about a black person doing a heinous crime on the news are you saying to yourself "Well let's wait and see. Let all the fact's come out". No. You're not. Black people are always assumed the criminal, the perp, the drug user, the trouble maker.

There are certain stories that people have an automatic response to. I doubt that you have a wait and see approach to EVERY news story that's posted on this board.

If there's a story about a guy brutally raping a girl you're not going to say to yourself, "Hmmm....let's wait and see until all the facts come out."

And if so you shouldn't feel proud of yourself when you condemn all the others who didn't wait and see to see if some innocent white girl was really raped or not. You shouldn't feel proud or persecuted just because a few times the guy was actually wrongfully accused. If you constantly did that with rape threads people would think you have an agenda and rightfully so. This is a discussion forum where we discuss news. Like I said, 10 pages of "Lets wait and see" is not a discussion.

As unnecessary and nasty as King Cobra's drive by post was, I don't like the idea of mods only allowing one side of the conversation to flood what should be a discussion board where various POV's are just that: a point of view. As long as it's civil and reasonable within the context of the information presented to us, no one should be censored, yet here we are questioning unfair bannings.

It also doesn't help that the links often posted in any first post in the thread are shitty news articles with lack of any context that are meant to incite a reaction and not allow people to make a judgment call. Variety painted that story as if Ms. Watts was the victim and the big bad Studio City Police are oppressors of black America. I wonder if that was her publicist who got the story to Variety.

So the cops had proof that she had sex? Or you have proof? Do you have the video? Well that's withholding evidence.

I'd have no issue with the cops charging and arresting them for the crime, but they didn't have enough proof it seems. So in the meantime while they are here why not push this whole ID thing. It's irrelevant, they aren't going to even fucking record the name, just show them the ID. Why? Don't ask why. No reason other than we can. Lazy fucking cop work. Smacks of "submit to my authority". They didn't need the name because they weren't going to do shit with it. That kind of small abuse of authority rubs me the wrong way.

It's gas that people are lambasting others for jumping to conclusions before all the facts are out and are happy to tar and feather these two on the sayso of the shitrag like TMZ. I have no idea if this girl and the guy did anything in the car and neither do you. So I think she deserves some presumption of innocence.

TMZ is reporting hearsay from other people who don't divulge their name about what was occurring in that studio lot, but the audio is damning.
They can't be that much of a shitrag if they were able to break the Ray Rice video footage much faster than traditional news outlets, verified or not.

I'm not a cop. It's not my place to make that judgment call regarding unreasonable request for id,but from the audio, Ms. Watts was being unreasonable to their requests.

 

[Schattenjäger]

Well what do you expect when you have posts like these:



What you may not realize is that most people don't really care about "facts" and being "unbiased" until a black person is a victim. If there's a story about a black person doing a heinous crime on the news are you saying to yourself "Well let's wait and see. Let all the fact's come out". No. You're not. Black people are always assumed the criminal, the perp, the drug user, the trouble maker.

There are certain stories that people have an automatic response to. I doubt that you have a wait and see approach to EVERY news story that's posted on this board.

If there's a story about a guy brutally raping a girl you're not going to say to yourself, "Hmmm....let's wait and see until all the facts come out."

And if so you shouldn't feel proud of yourself when you condemn all the others who didn't wait and see to see if some innocent white girl was really raped or not. You shouldn't feel proud or persecuted just because a few times the guy was actually wrongfully accused. If you constantly did that with rape threads people would think you have an agenda and rightfully so. This is a discussion forum where we discuss news. Like I said, 10 pages of "Lets wait and see" is not a discussion.

Sure there are shit posts on both end .. But waiting for more information IMO seems a healthy middle ground
We can only go by facts .. In scenarios where not all the facts are present, people shouldn't be call racist for wanting to have access to the facts

 

[Smiles and Cries]

So basically she should have given her ID, even thought she was being suspected of prostitution... I am not a woman but I can understand how that would really upset someone. That whole thing was really shitty

 

[Calamari41]

So the cops had proof that she had sex? Or you have proof? Do you have the video? Well that's withholding evidence.

I'd have no issue with the cops charging and arresting them for the crime, but they didn't have enough proof it seems. So in the meantime while they are here why not push this whole ID thing. It's irrelevant, they aren't going to even fucking record the name, just show them the ID. Why? Don't ask why. No reason other than we can. Lazy fucking cop work. Smacks of "submit to my authority". They didn't need the name because they weren't going to do shit with it. That kind of small abuse of authority rubs me the wrong way.

It's gas that people are lambasting others for jumping to conclusions before all the facts are out and are happy to tar and feather these two on the sayso of the shitrag like TMZ. I have no idea if this girl and the guy did anything in the car and neither do you. So I think she deserves some presumption of innocence.

Read up on how the police operate, please.

So basically she should have given her ID, even thought she was being suspected of prostitution... I am not a woman but I can understand how that would really upset someone. That whole thing was really shitty

Listen to the audio. Nobody said anything about prostitution. It was suspicion of lewd acts in public, for which the police had allegedly received multiple calls.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

As unnecessary and nasty as King Cobra's drive by post was, I don't like the idea of mods only allowing one side of the conversation to flood what should be a discussion board where various POV's are just that: a point of view. As long as it's civil and reasonable within the context of the information presented to us, no one should be censored, yet here we are questioning unfair bannings.

It also doesn't help that the links often posted in any first post in the thread are shitty news articles with lack of any context that are meant to incite a reaction and not allow people to make a judgment call. Variety painted that story as if Ms. Watts was the victim and the big bad Studio City Police are oppressors of black America. I wonder if that was her publicist who got the story to Variety.

That may be true but how is "Lets wait and see" going to further discussion? It stifles it just the same as pile ons do. What causes the pile on, whether right or wrong is irrelevant, is that phrase is only ever seen by people who:

a) Are incredibly contrarian for contrarians sake.

b) Don't actually believe the story and are waiting for more info to hopefully back up their opinion.

c) Consciously or subconsciously have an agenda.

d) Genuinely are on the fence about EVERYTHING (this is very rare)

Again how often do you hear a let's wait and see mentality echoed in news threads when it's not about black people being victims? Rarely if ever. But it ALWAYS pops up in these threads. There's a subtle message that posters and by extension mods on Neogaf are reacting to.

 

[Mononoke]

That may be true but how is "Lets wait and see" going to further discussion? What causes the pile on, whether right or wrong is irrelevant, is that phrase is only ever seen by people who:

a) Are incredibly contrarian for contrarians sake.

b) Don't actually believe the story and are waiting for more info to hopefully back up their opinion.

c) Consciously or subconsciously have an agenda.

d) Genuinely are on the fence about EVERYTHING (very rare)

Again how often do you hear a let's wait and see mentality echoed in news threads when it's not about black people being victims? Rarely if ever. But it ALWAYS pops up in these threads. There's a subtle message that posters and by extension mods on Neogaf are reacting to.

I think because of the issues you've brought up (that wait and see is often used in a negative way), maybe if it's used on here, it should be followed up with some elaboration. Then again, as I said earlier, I'm the kind of person that talks too much. I always write out lengthy as hell posts, and try to elaborate quite a bit on where I'm coming from. So I never run into people thinking I'm being dismissive. Even if I'm arguing against them, they won't take my posts as being negative (ie. being contrarian , being dismissive etc.) I think maybe the issue here is, people think "wait and see" as a single statement, is in bad taste. I dunno.

Although in principle, I don't see how waiting for the facts to come out is an unreasonable stance. I guess I'm just not really sure I understand how it's being used in a larger sense (on this forum). Clearly there seems to be an issue with how people perceive these kind of posts? I guess my issue is, how do you tell when someone is saying "wait and see" for negative reasons, vs genuine belief that it's good to wait and see. And then, then how do you tell when someone is being dismissive or ridiculing someone for having this belief, because they think it's being dismissive and used in a negative way (vs. just being harsh/ridiculing the person, because they don't agree with them). Because you then have a situation where, it's okay for posters to dismiss and ridicule someone for having a genuine belief (that isn't mean to be negative), and that seems wrong to me.

 

[Jenov]

The thread title is so completely off, surprised it hasn't been fixed yet.

 

[mantidor]

The situation is crappy but I still find it weird that people from the US think that mandatory ID is somehow "nazi Germany". I mean are you guys serious? How are cops then supposed to do their job? Why asks for IDs at all in the first place? The whole thing makes no sense to me.

 

[nib95]

Do prostitutes not have ID's or something? Fuck the policing over there man. Some wacky shit I've been reading week in week out.

 

[Pollux]

Yeah but how awful is that husband/boyfriend of hers? Dude just let her fly off the handle and ruin her career without even trying to calm her down from the sound of it. He has to try harder in that situation.

So now it's his fault for not controlling her?

 

[Camp Lo]

Sure there are shit posts on both end .. But waiting for more information IMO seems a healthy middle ground
We can only go by facts .. In scenarios where not all the facts are present, people shouldn't be call racist for wanting to have access to the facts

Yeah, this thread is a testament to that, for me at least. It's easy as hell to hop on that first take bandwagon but I'm glad I refrained from doing that here.

 

[Buzzati]

So the cops had proof that she had sex? Or you have proof? Do you have the video? Well that's withholding evidence.

I'd have no issue with the cops charging and arresting them for the crime, but they didn't have enough proof it seems. So in the meantime while they are here why not push this whole ID thing. It's irrelevant, they aren't going to even fucking record the name, just show them the ID. Why? Don't ask why. No reason other than we can. Lazy fucking cop work. Smacks of "submit to my authority". They didn't need the name because they weren't going to do shit with it. That kind of small abuse of authority rubs me the wrong way.

It's gas that people are lambasting others for jumping to conclusions before all the facts are out and are happy to tar and feather these two on the sayso of the shitrag like TMZ. I have no idea if this girl and the guy did anything in the car and neither do you. So I think she deserves some presumption of innocence.



Seems like it. Although seems like a genuine mistake on her part. She mentioned something about being on the phone with her father about her stepmother who is sick. Anyway, yeah it seem to escalate from there.



Well considering that he didn't file a report - according to the original article - I'd guess that it is within his discretion. Hard to guess.

There is nothing out of the ordinary in the audio tape. The cop should not be painted as a racist if there's nothing to implicate him as one. He wasn't power tripping because everything he was doing was within California state law and protocol. In fact, if he hadn't have asked for ID he would have been chastised by his department. He answered the complaint without a breach of anyone's rights. You simply cannot imagine this scenario as anything but the cop being a racist, when he did nothing controversial at all.

 

[Zoe]

The situation is crappy but I still find it weird that people from the US think that mandatory ID is somehow "nazi Germany". I mean are you guys serious? How are cops then supposed to do their job? Why asks for IDs at all in the first place? The whole thing makes no sense to me.

You really don't need an ID card when the police ask you for identification when it's warranted. But you do need to give a truthful answer, and they're going to expect you to stay put until they can verify it.

 

[Infinite]

The situation is crappy but I still find it weird that people from the US think that mandatory ID is somehow "nazi Germany". I mean are you guys serious? How are cops then supposed to do their job? Why asks for IDs at all in the first place? The whole thing makes no sense to me.

It's been said a thousand times in this thread that you can legally opt not to show ID to the police if you're not under suspicion for any crime and if that officer haven't identified themselves as one.

 

[Tagyhag]

Ha, this whole thing reminds me of when Brandy got pranked in that Punk'd show into thinking that her brother was going to get arrested for stealing jewelry (Ray J was in on the joke)
so she started using the fame card pretty damn fast "Come on you're black, you know who we are!"

Celebs can act as humble as they want, but most of them, unsurprisingly, aren't above looking for special treatment.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

It's gas that people are lambasting others for jumping to conclusions before all the facts are out and are happy to tar and feather these two on the sayso of the shitrag like TMZ. I have no idea if this girl and the guy did anything in the car and neither do you. So I think she deserves some presumption of innocence.

It's not just going on TMZ's say-so. There's audio of the confrontation, and the cops come off as reasonable (if a bit annoyed), and she comes off as childish and petulant.

Reviewing your previous posts, it seems your mind is made up and nothing the police could have done would change your mind. They received multiple complaints, they responded, they were respectful, they got treated in a hostile manner and still were very reasonable about the whole thing.

They behaved in an exemplary way IMO.

 

[DoktorEvil]

That may be true but how is "Lets wait and see" going to further discussion? It stifles it just the same as pile ons do. What causes the pile on, whether right or wrong is irrelevant, is that phrase is only ever seen by people who:

a) Are incredibly contrarian for contrarians sake.

b) Don't actually believe the story and are waiting for more info to hopefully back up their opinion.

c) Consciously or subconsciously have an agenda.

d) Genuinely are on the fence about EVERYTHING (this is very rare)

Again how often do you hear a let's wait and see mentality echoed in news threads when it's not about black people being victims? Rarely if ever. But it ALWAYS pops up in these threads. There's a subtle message that posters and by extension mods on Neogaf are reacting to.

I could say the same thing about certain posters who ONLY talk about race, even going so far as to create incendiary threads only to create controversy when there isn't any.

When people elaborate of their non-opinion to an incendiary topic, you can damn well expect members to cherry pick part of your post, which is why more people are either avoiding the conversation or just lurking.

Which then leaves a circle of Gaffers who enter threads that only validate their world view.

 

[massoluk]

So basically she should have given her ID, even thought she was being suspected of prostitution... I am not a woman but I can understand how that would really upset someone. That whole thing was really shitty

The cop didn't mention them being prostitution suspect at all in the audio obtained by TMZ, I think she and her boyfriend just assume that's the case.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Read up on how the police operate, please.



Listen to the audio. Nobody said anything about prostitution. It was suspicion of lewd acts in public, for which the police had allegedly received multiple calls.

lewd acts - not really sure how this point makes the conclusion in her mind easier?

She is a black female and in a car kissing a white male, when a cop shows up to that party not many folks are level headed enough not to take that very personal. She got upset, I also think her celebrity status played too much of a role in her reaction. Giving the ID would have helped you can be offended but still be pleasant about it. I'm a black male so my reaction to this is just to shake my head, you don't have to pull a race card to say this shit should not be happening this way.

 

[Mononoke]

So basically she should have given her ID, even thought she was being suspected of prostitution... I am not a woman but I can understand how that would really upset someone. That whole thing was really shitty

She was never told she was under suspicion of prostitution? But the reality is, if she was having sex in public, she already knows what she was doing was illegal. Or at least I would hope so? I guess I shouldn't assume someone knows what is legal and not illegal.

EDIT: I should point out, it's what eyewitness's claim they saw.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Sure there are shit posts on both end .. But waiting for more information IMO seems a healthy middle ground
We can only go by facts .. In scenarios where not all the facts are present, people shouldn't be call racist for wanting to have access to the facts

No one's calling those people racists. And that's fine and dandy but people choose what facts they want to believe and what facts they don't.

A fact for me is not a fact for you. If there are 5 black eyewitnesses saying the same thing then that's good enough for me (and the court of law) but for many on here it's not. If police officers say they shot a guy lunging towards them but the autopsy and witnesses reports say things happened differently the facts tell me the police are lying.

For a lot of people here facts are only synonymous with "a narrative I'm willing to believe". Just go in that sword thread. There were people still arguing for the police even though they were caught lying! Just go in the Ferguson thread, there were many arguing for the police and waiting for more facts even though the facts have shown that the ferguson PD are utterly corrupt and devoid of honesty.

Facts aren't objective truths that people MUST bend to. When confronted with a fact that goes against our worldview we will deny it. We will deny it and make excuses or even fabricate narratives that ease our minds.

And like I said, people only care about facts when blacks are victims. Otherwise everyone is happy to form an immediate opinion on a situation without waiting and seeing. Black people are never given the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Infinite]

She was never told she was under suspicion of prostitution. But the reality is, if she was having sex in public, she already knows what she was doing was illegal.

Wait, was she having sex in public? If not I understand her reaction although she went over board.

 

[Chariot]

lewd acts - not really sure how this point makes the conclusion in her mind easier?

She is a black female and in a car kissing a white male, when a cop shows up to that party not many folks are level headed enough not to take that very personal. She got upset, I also think her celebrity status played too much of a role in her reaction. Giving the ID would have helped you can be offended but still be pleasant about it. I'm a black male so my reaction to this is just to shake my head, you don't have to pull a race card to say this shit should not be happening this way.

Eye witnesses said that they had sex with an open door. So if that's true, she certainly knew what was up. There is of course still the possibility that they just kissed very heated and passersbys had the wrong idea.

 

[Calamari41]

lewd acts - not really sure how this point makes the conclusion in her mind easier?

She is a black female and in a car kissing a white male, when a cop shows up to that party not many folks are level headed enough not to take that very personal. She got upset, I also think her celebrity status played too much of a role in her reaction. Giving the ID would have helped you can be offended but still be pleasant about it. I'm a black male so my reaction to this is just to shake my head, you don't have to pull a race card to say this shit should not be happening this way.

Apparently the police received multiple calls that they were having full-on sex, not just kissing. That's definitely illegal to do in public.

 

[Mononoke]

Wait, was she having sex in public? If not I understand her reaction although she went over board.

Having sex in your car w/ the door open is sex in public, is it not?

Then again, that's if you believe the eyewitness's. Either way, that's why the cops were called out there.

 

[wsippel]

So the cops had proof that she had sex? Or you have proof? Do you have the video? Well that's withholding evidence.

You don't seem to understand what the police's job is. They don't need proof, their job is to find proof either way in a case like this. And verifying the identity of the people involved is obviously part of that.

Assume somebody breaks into your home and is still there. You call the cops, by the time they arrive the burglar is outside loading your stuff in his car. Do the cops have proof that the dude actually broke in and that it's your stuff he's happily stowing away? Of course not, so I guess they should just let him go? Maybe lend him a hand, too - and arrest you for wasting their time.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Wait, was she having sex in public? If not I understand her reaction although she went over board.

Can't say for certain, but the defensive argument from the audio may indicate she was.

We know from the TMZ report by eyewitnesses was that she was straddling her husband and using a napkin to clean up afterwards.

 

[Schattenjäger]

No one's calling those people racists. And that's fine and dandy but people choose what facts they want to believe and what facts they don't.

A fact for me is not a fact for you. If there are 5 black eyewitnesses saying the same thing then that's good enough for me (and the court of law) but for many on here it's not. If police officers say they shot a guy lunging towards them but the autopsy and witnesses reports say things happened differently the facts tell me the police are lying.

For a lot of people here facts are only synonymous with "a narrative I'm willing to believe". Just go in that sword thread. There were people still arguing for the police even though they were caught lying! Just go in the Ferguson thread, there were many arguing for the police and waiting for more facts even though the facts have shown that the ferguson PD are utterly corrupt and devoid of honesty.

Facts aren't objective truths that people MUST bend to. When confronted with a fact that goes against our worldview we will deny it. We will deny it and make excuses or even fabricate narratives that ease our minds.

And like I said, people only care about facts when blacks are victims. Otherwise everyone is happy to form an immediate opinion on a situation without waiting and seeing.

I really don't want to hijack this thread as I think we should continue this in the other thread.. But I really think it's too early to make a judgement call on that case

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

I could say the same thing about certain posters who ONLY talk about race, even going so far as to create incendiary threads only to create controversy when there isn't any.

When people elaborate of their non-opinion to an incendiary topic, you can damn well expect members to cherry pick part of your post, which is why more people are either avoiding the conversation or just lurking.

Which then leaves a circle of Gaffers who enter threads that only validate their world view.

I don't think the two problems are synonymous or at all equatable. Denying racism and subtly never giving blacks the benefit of the doubt is a more toxic mentality and it's much more rampant than what you said certain posters are doing.