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[Sayad]

Sorry if there isn't. I just threw that in there. Though it wouldn't surprise me if there was now.

Should have threw in combo breakers, lack of female characters and paid demo while you're at it.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Complexity != depth

extravagance != depth

 

[Sayad]

I guess I didn't think about that but Tekken 4 & 5 had a 4 year gap in release.

Gap between T4 and T5 was less than 3 years.

NA September 23, 2002 to February 24, 2005
EU September 13, 2002 to June 24, 2005

 

[Noisepurge]

I agree. People always love to judge games based off of Alpha's/Beta's when producers of games like Tekken 7 clearly states that the game is nowhere near finished, especially graphically.

"Ugh, this looks exactly the same as the last game," & "The gameplay is exactly the same," etc. It's kind of annoying.

Its because we've been burned numerous times now with false promises and "betas" being actually the finished product. See Destiny as the latest example.

 

[IvorB]

I have had an idea for years, even contacted Harada, embarssingly enough but nope. Ways to extend or tweak combos and filling bars for specials is all anyone ever comes up with.

Yeah one of the things we said was some kind of damage modelling (just cosmetic). We thought this was a given. But nope, we still fight with indestructible dolls. Apparently DOA5 did something but I've played that quite a few times and can't say I've noticed. Which is another reason I was so pissed off with Tekken 6. There is this new "feature" the destructible floors. I was, like, are you f**king serious? If they want to have destructible environments fair enough they can check DOA2 on PS2 since it actually managed to pull it off flawlessly. And the new Tekken comes out with some Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3-style floor break. Unbelievable. Each new piece of news that came out about Tekken 6 was like a dagger to the heart.

That's certainly an opinion that will make me mentally note never to respond to anything you say.

Ha ha! Don't take it so seriously. It's just an opinion.

Yeah, they made it not broken.

I loved that move. It was the cornerstone of my Heichachi. It made people think twice about everything. I don't want to think about Heihachi without it; I might have to actually work for my juggles or something . And Lei? Surely that's indefensible.

Complexity != depth

But options and decioning does. I just googled how many moves Street Fighter characters have and it's way worse than I thought. They have about five. So if we stripped out the meters and just had a fight between two characters with six moves each do you think we would be hitting the same depth as, say a match between Eddie Gordo and Ling Xiaoyu with all their associated moves, stance etc? Even setting aside the 3D thing.

 

[Kimosabae]

I'm mad that Tekken still looks like Tekken. I wanted it to look like something else.

Did Tekken 4 not look like Tekken?

 

[Skilletor]

Ha ha! Don't take it so seriously. It's just an opinion.



But options and decioning does. I just googled how many moves Street Fighter characters have and it's way worse than I thought. They have about five. So if we stripped out the meters and just had a fight between two characters with six moves each do you think we would be hitting the same depth as, say a match between Eddie Gordo and Ling Xiaoyu with all their associated moves, stance etc? Even setting aside the 3D thing.

Only special moves count? Ryu ( and every SF character in SF) has 6 normals, air normals (straight up, and u/f), close normals, command normals, crouching normals, and special moves. Each with a specific use, allowing different combos and opportunities.

It's an opinion of ignorance. One that I've heard many times. Number of moves per character does not = depth.

Did Tekken 4 not look like Tekken?

Artistically? Sure.

Gameplay? Felt closer to Ehrgheiz and Tobal to me. And it sucked.

 

[Doomshine]

And Lei? Surely that's indefensible.

I don't know what problem he has with that, it's still there but with more options.

 

[The Artisan]

Gap between T4 and T5 was less than 3 years.

NA September 23, 2002 to February 24, 2005
EU September 13, 2002 to June 24, 2005

shit, you're right, I don't know why I was thinking 4 years

maybe because T4 in the arcades came out in 2001 and T5 on Ps2 came out in 2005.

 

[Slamtastic]

I just googled how many moves Street Fighter characters have and it's way worse than I thought. They have about five. So if we stripped out the meters and just had a fight between two characters with six moves each do you think we would be hitting the same depth as, say a match between Eddie Gordo and Ling Xiaoyu with all their associated moves, stance etc? Even setting aside the 3D thing.

Standing Light Punch
Standing Medium Punch (Close)
Standing Hard Punch (Close)
Standing Medium Punch (Far)
Standing Hard Punch (Far)
Standing Light Kick
Standing Medium Kick
Standing Hard Kick
Standing Medium Kick (Close)
Standing Hard Kick (Far)
Crouching Light Punch
Crouching Medium Punch
Crouching Hard Punch
Crouching Light Kick
Crouching Medium Kick
Crouching Hard Kick
Neutral Jumping Light Punch
Neutral Jumping Medium Punch
Neutral Jumping Hard Punch
Neutral Jumping Light Kick
Neutral Jumping Medium Kick
Neutral Jumping Hard Kick
Forward/Backwards Jumping Light Punch
Forward/Backwards Jumping Medium Punch
Forward/Backwards Jumping Hard Punch
Forward/Backwards Jumping Light Kick
Forward/Backwards Jumping Medium Kick
Forward/Backwards Jumping Hard Kick
Command Normal 1
Command Normal 2
Forward Throw
Back Throw
Target Combo 1
Target Combo 2
Special 1 Light
Special 1 Medium
Special 1 Hard
Special 2 Light
Special 2 Medium
Special 2 Hard
Special 3 Light
Special 3 Medium
Special 3 Hard

Not including meter moves.

 

[SixMachine]

But options and decioning does. I just googled how many moves Street Fighter characters have and it's way worse than I thought. They have about five. So if we stripped out the meters and just had a fight between two characters with six moves each do you think we would be hitting the same depth as, say a match between Eddie Gordo and Ling Xiaoyu with all their associated moves, stance etc? Even setting aside the 3D thing.

A lot of the moves on the list of Tekken are strings and extensions. If you look at the neutral game of a 3d fighter they don't use a huge repertoire, they use what is most effective, you're not going to use every string in the neutral game, because that would be suicidal. You're not going to use everything with Ling but you will eventually narrow down what works, since a lot of moves on the list aren't even natural combos, which means if you do it, all the hits might not connect. Once you get a combo started like say a juggle, you can go ham with your options that work, depending on wall carry, damage, oki, whatever. But as a lot of people say, it's how you get the hit in a fighting game that really maters.

In 2D it's a whole different beast, because your normals are what you mainly work with and it's not like the game will tell you what extensions work. To put it in perspective, you're basically given a bunch of things you could start with and things you can end with and it's up to you to piece it together. There links and chains that you can do that aren't listed, where you would see something like 1,1,2 on a Tekken list but in something like SFXT you can infer that lp, lk, mp works because of the chain system even if it's not listed. And with links, you have to hit the training mode and work that one out to get extensions, and on top of that integrate your specials and how you can confirm into and out of them.

The point of meter is to add dynamic play to a match. You wouldn't fight someone with lots of meter for EX the same as he had no meter. That changes how you may approach them because without meter, they might not have a good reversal, while with it they can beat your options. It also makes you play differently and adapt to the match, you might be using a certain move but once you get meter, you know you can now confirm your ultra off it, but at the same time, your opponent can be aware and look out for that situation. Meter gain and use also plays a role because besides playing footsie and spacing, the players now have an option to build their meter in some way. For example, Nemo could be playing Daigo's game in the footsie range or he could hang back and build meter with knives, so he can better his options. Daigo in return knows he can't let him do that, so he has to do something about it. It definitely changes the mentality and the dynamic of a match if there is meter in play.

 

[IvorB]

Only special moves count? Ryu has 6 normals, air normals, close normals, command normals, crouching normals, and special moves. Each with a specific use, allowing different combos and opportunities.

It's an opinion of ignorance. One that I've heard many times.

Oh okay. I just googled for number of moves and that's what came up. I was little bit shocked to be honest so I'm not surprised there are more. So how many are we talking then in total?

It may be an ignorant opinion so I'm happy to be educated on it. I don't play 2D games except MK socially but I was under the impression they generally have a limited moveslist. More moves=more options+more variables in the encounter = more decisioning = more depth. Meters add more variables and more decioning to increase depth because otherwise where does the depth come from when the moves list is limited?

I don't know what problem he has with that, it's still there but with more options.

I heard he has to lie down then go into a specific lie down stance with the two punches in order to do any lie down moves. So that sounds to me like it would kill his whole flow with the lying down moves when the response time was pretty instant before. It also doesn't make any sense. When he lies down he is lying down; why does he need another stance input for that?

Oh yeah and Raven's sweep no longer knocks down which is another integral character move total nerfed. My mate was gutted. That move was b*tch but no way was it broken. But also I really don't understand why after all these years they come for Heihachi's Twin Piston. It's an integral move he's had since day 1. Yeah it's fast but I don't think it's broken. It doesn't make Heihachi unstoppable. Yeah it's a pain but you should know it's coming and act accordingly.

 

[Creaking]

I heard he has to lie down then go into a specific lie down stance with the two punches in order to do any lie down moves. So that sounds to me like it would kill his whole flow with the lying down moves when the response time was pretty instant before. It also doesn't make any sense. When he lies down he is lying down; why does he need another stance input for that?

If you get knocked on the ground, then yes, you have to hit 2 to go into your lie down stance (or return to downed position from his lie down stance). However, transitioning to the lie-down stance from standing works pretty much the same as it did before. You drop straight into his stance. However, he has a lot more options from lie down now

 

[Doomshine]

Yeah it's fast but I don't think it's broken. It doesn't make Heihachi unstoppable. Yeah it's a pain but you should know it's coming and act accordingly.

It's a 13 frame mid launcher, it doesn't get much better than that.

 

[Skilletor]

Oh okay. I just googled for number of moves and that's what came up. I was little bit shocked to be honest so I'm not surprised there are more. So how many are we talking then in total?

It may be an ignorant opinion so I'm happy to be educated on it. I don't play 2D games except MK socially but I was under the impression they generally have a limited moveslist. More moves=more options+more variables in the encounter = more decisioning = more depth. Meters add more variables and more decioning to increase depth because otherwise where does the depth come from when the moves list is limited?

Word. Sorry for my brusque response, then.

Too many "3D Only players" use the same argument to take a stance of superiority. My apologies.

But, yes, there are tons of moves and uses in SF. For example, Ryu has a fireball, but each button makes it a different strength. I can use the varying speed to alter how my opponent responds, use the different recovery to throw more, get in closer. Mix it up with an EX (which will hit twice) to eat a fireball they might throw and still have mine on screen.

People see one plain and assume the decision making is simple when this isn't the case. There are a lot of variables and options without even including a special move for the game.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone boast about how many air normals a street fighter character has.

 

[Slamtastic]

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone boast about how many air normals a street fighter character has.

Well Tekken's "hundreds of moves" aren't any more interesting than different strengths of normals.

 

[Skilletor]

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone boast about how many air normals a street fighter character has.

Who is boasting? I'm correcting a false sentiment.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Well Tekken's "hundreds of moves" aren't any more interesting than different strengths of normals.

As in they're animated punches and kicks? Yeah whatever. A punch is a punch.

For gameplay, interaction in a 2D fighter and 3D fighter when using those animated limbs might as well be a different genre. The properties that make "normals" in Tekken unique from one another have bigger implications than the crouching short fest that is SF

Who is boasting? I'm correcting a false sentiment.

I just found it funny because when the shoe was on the other foot, and people complained about Tekken having too many moves I used a similar argument as yours regarding 2d games and it fell on deaf ears.

It makes me think which one is it.

 

[ShinobiFist]

I agree. People always love to judge games based off of Alpha's/Beta's when producers of games like Tekken 7 clearly states that the game is nowhere near finished, especially graphically.

"Ugh, this looks exactly the same as the last game," & "The gameplay is exactly the same," etc. It's annoying.

VF5 expansions added a bunch of new elements to the game, on defense and offense(Side guard, Guard Breaks, Wall splats, Throw escape system changed, New idle animations for the cast, new moves, narrow stages, some old moves re done and animated differently, new Jump mechanic and specific animations just for Taka when you hit him or throw him.)If you see footage of Jacky or Wolf in VF5 vanilla compared to Final Showdown, they look like totally different characters by the new moves and redone animations. I was not a huge fan of Final Showdown, but i give props to SEGA for putting that much effort into each expansion.You rarely see a drastic change in Tekken compared to VF. And when some say it looks the same, is not the graphics they mean. Is the animations and movement. Kazuya been having the same idle animations since forever man. And also, I found it odd that Tekken didn't have back walk animations for years.

 

[Skilletor]

I just found it funny because when the shoe was on the other foot, and people complained about Tekken having too many moves I used a similar argument as yours regarding 2d games and it fell on deaf ears.

It makes me think which one is it.

Number of moves doesn't matter as much as utility. I'd rather a small novelist of 40 with each one having its own use, than a large novelist of 200 and you only use 5.

People that use number of moves as some indicator of depth are doing it wrong.

 

[Momentary]

This whole 2D vs 3D move list/depth argument is funny. It seems so juvenile. That and it's also completely off topic. I keep coming in here thinking there is new info coming up from the location test, but then I'm greeted with this school yard debate.

 

[Dahbomb]

This thread is getting real stupid real fast. Namco needs to show some new characters already (as in not the ones in the loctest).

 

[The Artisan]

is the arcade version being released this year?

if so, I think its safe to say Ps4 & whatever other ports there will be will come out next year.

 

[Sayah]

is the arcade version being released this year?

if so, I think its safe to say Ps4 & whatever other ports there will be will come out next year.

It may be 2015. Though, I hope its this year. Like December 2014 or something.

TTT2 only took one year for its arcade to console transition. I would really like that sort of timing again.

Then again, Pokken is also releasing in Japanese arcades in 2015 so I'd imagine they want to separate those two releases.

 

[The Artisan]

It may be 2015. Though, I hope its this year. Like December 2014 or something.

TTT2 only took one year for its arcade to console transition. I would really like that sort of timing again.

Then again, Pokken is also releasing in Japanese arcades in 2015 so I'd imagine they want to separate those two releases.

most tekken titles period have a 1 year wait between arcade and console. tekken 6 was just one retarded ass exception.

pokken doesn't have much to do with the tekken brand other than the fighting mechanic, and the pun on the name. it'll probably come out on wii u seeing as how wii u probably won't get tekken 7

 

[Manbig]

Except, SF4 used absolutely no assets from ST (or SF3). No animations/keyframes. No sounds. Absolutely nothing. Because it was a sequel. A brand new game.

This can't be said for Tekken 7.

Except SF4 adapted a ton of old animations for legacy characters for a new engine. You know, things like Shoto Cr. Roundhouse, DPs, Hurricane Kicks. So I fail to see what you're trying to get at here.

As an above-average person, who can count frames, this looks exactly the same game but a teeny bit prettier. More like an HD port using the old textures but running with more AA and effects. Gameplay? Exactly the same. I even own 5DR, 6 and TTT2. And I've dabbled in Revolution. I have two sticks. This looks the same. I can't imagine what a casual observer thinks but it can't be better than that.

Oh shit! You can count frames?! Can you also duck electrics on reaction like Jaguar King?!

You even own the older Tekken games? That's amazing man! I commend you for your insistence on purchasing them even though they were, as you are saying here, exactly the same.

Maybe you should give that second stick to a person that knows better so he/she can play with you and smarten you the hell up.

Honestly, I don't even know why you chose to respond to what I said there seeing as I was talking about a demographic that apparently has nothing to do with you.

 

[Sayah]

As an above-average person, who can count frames

LOL, this sentence. I'm just reading this. Must have skimmed over it with all the other madness going on in this thread.

 

[Creaking]

Is this what all fighting game threads turn into? :|

 

[Manbig]

Is this what all fighting game threads turn into? :|

Mostly ones where Tekken fans get involved. It eventually tends to drag down to a 2D vs 3D debate, because some of Tekken fans are overdefensive of the franchise, while some of the 2D crowd (mostly Capcom fans) exude a bit of some sort of strange superiority complex over the games that they don't care for.

Most people are level headed enough to not make stupid proclamations like the stuff that permeates this thread though.

 

[Sayah]

In my time of being on this website, I don't think I've seen so much fail in a single thread. At least on the gaming side.

 

[Creaking]

Mostly ones where Tekken fans get involved. It eventually tends to drag down to a 2D vs 3D debate, because some of Tekken fans are overdefensive of the franchise, while some of the 2D crowd (mostly Capcom fans) exude a bit of some sort of strange superiority complex over the games that they don't care for.

Most people are level headed enough to not make stupid proclamations like the stuff that permeates this thread though.

In my time of being on this website, I don't think I've seen so much fail in a single thread. At least on the gaming side.

Well that's a bit of a relief, but man, why did it have to be this thread?

 

[LowParry]

Is this what all fighting game threads turn into? :|

Yeah. Sadly. I mean there isn't much more to discuss until we see the game with upcoming events which is soon. Maybe we'll see some graphical tweaks then. Maybe.

 

[Dahbomb]

In my time of being on this website, I don't think I've seen so much fail in a single thread. At least on the gaming side.

It's only going to get worse as the game nears release date. God forbid there's a graphical downgrade in the game, GAF would tear it apart and hang T7 + Harada.

Double LOL @ the frame counting post though.

 

[SapientWolf]

But options and decioning does. I just googled how many moves Street Fighter characters have and it's way worse than I thought. They have about five. So if we stripped out the meters and just had a fight between two characters with six moves each do you think we would be hitting the same depth as, say a match between Eddie Gordo and Ling Xiaoyu with all their associated moves, stance etc? Even setting aside the 3D thing.

It depends on the amount of utility those moves had, and whether they were interchangeable. It depends on the number and useful strategies that revolve around those moves, and the number of playstyles they would allow for. If the game has a hundred moves but there is a single dominant strategy involving a small portion of them then the game is not deep. You can't judge a fighting game solely by the size of its movelist. That's folly.

 

[Dart]

It's only going to get worse as the game nears release date. God forbid there's a graphical downgrade in the game, GAF would tear it apart and hang T7 + Harada.

Double LOL @ the frame counting post though.

Graphical downgrade? Whatever happened to that thread on Tekken 7 arcade location test running on 50% visual quality?

nvm -_

 

[Dahbomb]

Graphical downgrade? Whatever happened to that thread on Tekken 7 arcade location test running on 50% visual quality?

It's 60% and even though a visual increase is expected... this is game development we are talking about here. Things can go awry, developers may not deliver what they promised and corners have to be cut when a game has to make a release date. It's the nature of the business.

I wouldn't be surprised if Namco tones down the sparks and someone pops in to tell us that it's an intentional DOWNGRADATON.

 

[FormallyFamicom]

Well if you want to read some actual hands-on impressions of the game, a player offered their thoughts here.

 

[Master Thespian]

It's 60% and even though a visual increase is expected... this is game development we are talking about here. Things can go awry, developers may not deliver what they promised and corners have to be cut when a game has to make a release date. It's the nature of the business.

I wouldn't be surprised if Namco tones down the sparks and someone pops in to tell us that it's an intentional DOWNGRADATON.

This is Tekken, not Soulcalibur. Namco will make sure it delivers.

 

[Dart]

It's 60% and even though a visual increase is expected... this is game development we are talking about here. Things can go awry, developers may not deliver what they promised and corners have to be cut when a game has to make a release date. It's the nature of the business.

I wouldn't be surprised if Namco tones down the sparks and someone pops in to tell us that it's an intentional DOWNGRADATON.

Doesn't really matter, Tekken stopped impressing me after 4 & besides those off-screen videos look decent anyway.

 

[Sayah]

Mostly ones where Tekken fans get involved. It eventually tends to drag down to a 2D vs 3D debate, because some of Tekken fans are overdefensive of the franchise, while some of the 2D crowd (mostly Capcom fans) exude a bit of some sort of strange superiority complex over the games that they don't care for.

Most people are level headed enough to not make stupid proclamations like the stuff that permeates this thread though.

I've seen many Tekken threads on this site but not one like this. I don't think this is supposed to be common.

It's only going to get worse as the game nears release date.

I hope not.

I can't tolerate another of these type of threads next time Tekken 7 gameplay is revealed.

 

[Amaya]

Is this what all fighting game threads turn into? :|

The first thread with leaked video was not like this. just people excited to see Tekken. What happened!?

 

[Passive Assassin]

this thread turned into my mind is full of fuck wat.


still waiting on jaycee/julia harada! who else is going to windroll like a boss?!

 

[AAK]

Catching up with the Day 3 footage.

Man it must have sucked for everyone that had to fight king. That d/b+2 chop post airbound bug is so broken. You wait 2 hours to get a 2 round game in only to die to that bug haha.

 

[WarRock]

2D fighting games have to use meter management to try and create some depth to the system since the characters have barely any moves and cannot manoeuvre in the 3D plane. There: I said it.

Soul Edge had meter

Psycho Force 2012 is all about 3D positioning and meter management, as is Gundam vs Gundam

Dragonball Z Hyper Dimension has a single meter for special/super moves and health and a "background attack"

Some 2D Mortal Kombat games had no meter management

Fatal Fury was all about two plane fighting

Weaponlord had no meter management

Killer Instinct had no meter management back in the day

I can keep throwing examples and not even touch your absurd "not enough moves" argument. Have you ever played Samurai Shodown? What "depth" even means to you?

Plus meters add the whole added layer of locking out some of your moves until you have completed some arbitrary target. That is more bullsh*t.

Arbitrary. Wow.

 

[Amaya]

Catching up with the Day 3 footage.

Man it must have sucked for everyone that had to fight king. That d/b+2 chop post airbound bug is so broken. You wait 2 hours to get a 2 round game in only to die to that bug haha.

That's a bug? I thought it was awesome. Reminds me of VF5 Wolf.

 

[Manbig]

Catching up with the Day 3 footage.

Man it must have sucked for everyone that had to fight king. That d/b+2 chop post airbound bug is so broken. You wait 2 hours to get a 2 round game in only to die to that bug haha.

Is that confirmed to be a bug? Looks intentional to me.

 

[Master Thespian]

That's a bug? I thought it was awesome. Reminds me of VF5 Wolf.

Basically. Makes me want to play King.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

King looks dope imo lol. I kinda hope they keep it

 

[Japanmanx3]

No I dont hate it. I loved TTT 1 and 2.
But just expected TT7 to be something different on new consoles and Im disappointed for being the same as it was year in year out.

I'm mad that Tekken still looks like Tekken. I wanted it to look like something else.

.