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[Infinite]

North America and South America are continents.

Why should I call myself an "American" when someone from, say, Brazil or Chile or Argentina are from (South) "America?"

Yeah, that.

Because they're from Brazil, Chile, and Argentina but you are from the USA.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I disagree but ultimately that's her opinion, isn't hurting anyone so whatever. Bad thing for her is that being a black woman limits the roles she can get.

 

[deadlast]

Basically I took the following away from this. "I'm rich. So unless that is the label you put in front of American, keep it to yourself."

But I could be wrong.

 

[terrisus]

What would you call yourself then? The country we mostly live in is called "United States of America".

Because they're from Brazil, Chile, and Argentina but you are from the USA.

So the only people who can call themselves "African" are people from South Africa?

 

[Ikael]

I understand her. I also think that identity politics are the bane of existance and I frankly don't get the infatuation that modern society have with pre-packaged identities. The less labels you peg yourself with, the more you will starve your ego and the more free you will be. Anyways, people should be free to associate or dissociate (as this is the case) with whichever identity label they want to, so more power to her I guess.

 

[Kinitari]

I can sort of relate to her about heritage. I can call myself Arab American, but I'm uncomfortable calling myself Yemeni or Yemeni-American. I don't really associate with Yemen at all aside from the fact that my parents were born there. People always find it really weird that I identify myself as an American girl from Brooklyn, and it's really because they see a WOC with (sometimes now) a headscarf.

Seriously, I think you're a great example Kisaya - there are so many cultural things associated with being Arab, or Yemeni (I have a bit of Yemen in me too) or Muslim, and like... maybe you don't really care about any of it? Sure maybe some people are always going to associate you with those elements, but that doesn't mean that YOU have to help them by calling yourself Yemeni or whatever whenever you describe yourself. If these are irrelevant parts of your identity, then you shouldn't have to prop them up because it's expected of you.


If someone is black in the states, but doesn't really feel like their blackness is a relevant part of them, then who are we to deride them for not toeing the line? It seems like a not nice thing to do.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I can understand the African American thing, but saying she wants to be labeled "a colorless person" is just silly.

You're still black Raven, regardless of the exact knowledge of your roots. Doesn't mean you have to dedication yourself to "black traditions" or whatever, but I think it's a silly thing to try to deny.

She's not denying that her skin is dark and that she looks a certain way. She's just saying that the label itself is dumb. If a tutsi or hutu moved to Canada they would essentially cease to be either since nobody knows what the difference is. If you moved to an all black reigon of the world and you're black yourself, then you're not really black anymore in the context of that reigon. See where I'm coming from?

These labels don't HAVE to exist.

 

[Technosteve]

He's referring to North America, and South America.

I live in North America, yet I'm Canadian.

the 51st state is canada, we just let you guys speak french up there to keep you guys happy.

 

[rondre sleaze]

Im black and I dont label myself african american I call myself black american

 

[Xenon]

People should be able to mentally handle being multiple things.

Everyone in America is an American. Duh. We're also a salad bowl -- not a melting pot -- of a beautiful variety of cultures, heritages, and customs. These do not need to go away or become "blended" (read: lost) into some generic culture that the majority approves of that steals meaning away from history in favor of surface shallowness.

To say that you don't see my blackness is to say that you don't see ME. You're saying you don't want to acknowledge my family, my heritage, my culture and all the things that lead to me being me that the sub-culture groomed me to be. It's to say you don't acknowledge my father who was one of the first black men to graduate at the top of his medical school class at Michigan State. It's saying you don't acknowledge the racial struggle my grandfather went through after serving in WWI. It's saying you don't acknowledge my great grandfather being raised on a plantation. It's saying you don't acknowledge my great grandmother on an Indian reservation.

No, fuck that. You'll see my roots in me. You'll see my heritage in my hair. You'll see the contribution of mine in our history books with attention paid to their ethnicity because it's paramount to many of the stories. You'll acknowledge the struggle and I won't accept being washed or "melted" out of history for convenience or to make some larger culture feel more comfortable.

So all of this can be differed by your skin color? Not every black person shares your history. So what you're saying it's ok to generalize people by their skin tone as long as it's positive.


Personally I consider this country to be more of a soup. When first added, ingredients hold most of their own flavor, but with time they take on the flavor of the soup while adding their own to the whole. Besides, soups are soooooooo much better than salads.

 

[PK Gaming]

She shouldn't be too quick to throw away a part of her identity. She's Black. And she's gay. And that's totally ok.

I mean, I understand the sentiment, but saying stuff like "i'm an American. And that's a colorless person" or "I'm a human who loves humans..." it just sounds like whitewashing to me.

 

[DoktorEvil]

So the only people who can call themselves "African" are people from South Africa?

I never went that far. Infinite did.

At least with other foreigners visiting New York, the implication is that being American = being a USA citizen. I don't know how it applies to other states but this is my personal experience. YMMV.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

I disagree but ultimately that's her opinion, isn't hurting anyone so whatever. Bad thing for her is that being a black woman limits the roles she can get.

Along this tangent, her experience with starring in a unique and creative role, which as you say is not usually available to black women, might have left her more open-minded and magnanimous than most of her peers.

 

[terrisus]

I never went that far. Infinite did.

At least with other foreigners visiting New York, the implication is that being American = being a USA citizen. I don't know how it applies to other states but this is my personal experience. YMMV.

Sorry, I know I kind of joined together a couple conversations there.

And, yeah, I think most people take "American = Being a USA citizen."
My only point was that, if one is looking at continents, there's much more to "America" than just the USA.

 

[Jme]

Why would anyone be upset by her comments? She says she doesn't know her ancestry. She could be a black American that is not of African descent - i.e. Jamaican, etc.

 

[Jarate]

Honestly, I really dislike the term "African-American" considering that most of the "African-American" families have generally been in America longer then most modern American families.

Honestly, its been really interesting that we're finally seeing the homogenization of American Culture into something that it's turning into today. There hasnt been a major immigration push from all over the world other then Hispanics, and while that's a major thing, there aren't nearly as many different cultures and languages coming in like we've seen in the past.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Along this tangent, her experience with starring in a unique and creative role, which as you say is not usually available to black women, might have left her more open-minded and magnanimous than most of her peers.

maybe she had to struggle to get that role. im sure she understands more about what it's like to be black in showbiz than any of us.

 

[Katzenjammer]

She shouldn't be too quick to throw away a part of her identity. She's Black. And she's gay.

I mean, I understand the sentiment, but saying stuff like "i'm an American. And that's a colorless person" or "I'm a human who loves humans..." it just sounds like whitewashing to me.

Being black and gay does not make up your identity. Unless you want to adhere to the stereotypes associated with those properties, which you have zero control over. She's whatever she wants to be.

 

[enzo_gt]

It's pretty tiring to see so many successful Black people try to distance themselves from their blackness. I don't want to hear bullshit about how there's a new black or I don't see the color. For all the poor disadvantaged even middle class people you don't want to identify with race is a daily reality. And the fact that we can't get our most successful people to align with us is pretty discouraging; especially when they are the people most promoting us needing to work together for success yet not actually living it out.

Nail on the head, really. There's this sort of undercurrent of being ashamed of what characteristics you inherit in all of society really, because they can make you a target via social media and even in business relationship. The few who speak out, get shouted down.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

maybe she had to struggle to get that role. im sure she understands more about what it's like to be black in showbiz than any of us.

I'm definitely not denying either of those two sentences. Nor was I trying to counter anything she said in the interview. I was just thinking outloud as to the context of her point of view.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Nail on the head, really. There's this sort of undercurrent of being ashamed of what characteristics you inherit in all of society really, because they can make you a target via social media and even in business relationship. The few who speak out, get shouted down.

so if raven was white and said she didnt like being labeled as white would she still be doing it because she was ashamed? what if she just doesn't like labels? regardless of the positive or negative connotations.

 

[User 73706]

Ha-haaa, that is so Raven!

 

[Kinitari]

Let me ask black gaf, specifically those in the thread who are upset at Rayven here.

I'm (mostly) Ethiopian, living in Canada, been here most of my life. Should I identify with black culture? Ethiopian culture? Canadian culture? If I say "I don't really care about being Ethiopian, I feel much more of an affinity with Toronto culture, so I want to talk about that aspect of my identity" - am I doing something wrong?

 

[PK Gaming]

Being black and gay does not make up your identity. Unless you want to adhere to the stereotypes associated with those properties, which you have zero control over. She's whatever she wants to be.

Sorry, I guess I worded that poorly... I just think those aspects are an incontrovertible part of her identity. In her defense it's her life and I have no right dictating what she should say, but I don't think there's any good in not wanting to be labelled as gay or black.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I'm definitely not denying either of those two sentences. Nor was I trying to counter anything she said in the interview. I was just thinking outloud as to the context of her point of view.

fair enough.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Let me ask black gaf, specifically those in the thread who are upset at Rayven here.

I'm (mostly) Ethiopian, living in Canada, been here most of my life. Should I identify with black culture? Ethiopian culture? Canadian culture? If I say "I don't really care about being Ethiopian, I feel much more of an affinity with Toronto culture, so I want to talk about that aspect of my identity" - am I doing something wrong?

Moreover, If i'm very racially diverse to the point where most people ask me "what are you", and I actually don't know myself. What culture should i identity with? Should I invent new one for "my people"?

Yes, the struggle is real. And black people do have to put up with a lot of shit, but not identifying as black isn't an affront to black people. it's protesting against racial categorization. I disagree with anyone who says it NEEDS to exist. For the time being it's useful as we progress as a society. But I won't consider the fight for equality over until the labels are removed from language all together.

 

[Malyse]

Can I pull it?
Ima pull it.

Everyone wants to be black. There's nothing more punk rock on Earth than being black. We stroll in, all muscle and sinew and cocoa, fucking the game up like dirty edge connectors. We laugh loud and speak bold and emit "I-just-don't-give-a-fuck" with every movement. We have been scrutinized and analyzed in every conceivable way, and still we are mysterious and exotic right down to the kink of our hair to those - surprising, still numerous - people who haven't been in contact with us before. We've created the rhythm and the blues, the rock and the roll, the hip and the hop. We brought in the noise and the funk. We put the soul in food, and pretty much everything else too. We built your pyramids, and we leap over them with our seemingly impossible collective athleticism, borne of mountains, jungles and plains that many of us still live in all across the world. Everyone wants to be black.

No one wants to be black. There's nothing more terrifying than the knowledge that we exist in every way but individually to everyone - even other black people. We can never be judged by our own merits; we carry the weight of the race's progression with every step into the future like Atlas, and even he shrugged...but we can't, because it's considered weak and selling out if we do. Every bit of slang, every bit of clothing that sits the wrong way, every head nod and hand gesture can and will be taken in the wrong way, a universal "there-goes-the-neighborhood" by everyone that can do so, which basically consists of everyone that doesn't want the social association with black people. That group, naturally, consists of everyone that is able to pass as "non-black". We live in a world where we were kings until we were cattle, and then we were weapons, and then we were like aphids, sprouting up where we weren't wanted, corrupting non-black youth, and the reason for everything from crime to lowered test scores or property value. Nobody wants to be black.

My blackness offends infinitely.
I want to be black.


Also, I'm just not going to address the topic. I'm just going to sit back and watch. I wouldn't say we are universally reviled; it just seems that way sometimes.

 

[Katzenjammer]

Sorry, I guess I worded that poorly... I just think those aspects are an incontrovertible part of her identity. In her defense it's her life and I have no right dictating what she should say, but I don't think there's any good in not wanting to be labelled as gay or black.

Because labels allow for generalizations and prejudice. Speaking for myself, when I talk to people, I don't want them to be conscious of my sexuality and assume things about my personality based on that. I identify much more strongly with being an engineer and a person who likes games and books. Those cultures have had a much bigger role in shaping who I am, and that's why I chose to become part of them. I just happen to be attracted to men. That is just about as important to me as me preferring orange juice over apple juice, and I don't want a label for that either.

 

[depths20XX]

Lot of salty people in this thread. She doesn't seem to be saying anything inherently bad and can identify as she wants.

 

[LegendofLex]

Labels are okay to the extent that people find comfort in being able to self-identify. Others find labels to be boxes that needlessly limit the way we identify ourselves, and that's fine, too. And of course many people don't feel they can appropriately claim any label, and while they may not see that as either positive or negative it can often come with a feeling of isolation and the sense that you're orphaned.

I think most people fall in category 1, Raven in category 2, and personally I feel like I fall more in category 3 (most of my ancestors came to the U.S. from various parts of Europe within the last 3-4 generations, but my wife is 100% Sicilian, which frequently impresses on me how disconnected I am from any ownership of my cultural history).

 

[dbztrk]

She's not denying that her skin is dark and that she looks a certain way. She's just saying that the label itself is dumb. If a tutsi or hutu moved to Canada they would essentially cease to be either since nobody knows what the difference is. If you moved to an all black reigon of the world and you're black yourself, then you're not really black anymore in the context of that reigon. See where I'm coming from?

These labels don't HAVE to exist.

Black is not just a reference to skin color in America. It is also an ethnonym. Despite the fact that they would all be "black" they would still be able to tell the difference. Africans deal with this all the time. They can tell the difference between one another. An Igbo does not look like Somali who does not look Fulani. So while they are all "black" as in a reference to skin color (Igbos are typically light skin) African's typically don't use only skin color as a an identifier. If they can't place you, they will ask what ethnicity the person is because they don't look like their ethnic group and they don't look like an ethnic group they are familiar with. This is common with most people.

See all of the ethnic tension that take place throughout Africa despite the fact that most of them are "black". Your ethnicity doesn't ceased to exist just because you relocate somewhere else.

I'm a black American and I can usually tell the difference between a black American and a black Caribbean American. There are differences. Sometimes they are subtle but they are there.

 

[PK Gaming]

Because labels allow for generalizations and prejudice. Speaking for myself, when I talk to people, I don't want them to be conscious of my sexuality and assume things about my personality based on that. I identify much more strongly with being an engineer and a person who likes games and books. Those cultures have had a much bigger role in shaping who I am, and that's why I chose to become part of them. I just happen to be attracted to men. That is just about as important to me as me preferring orange juice over apple juice, and I don't want a label for that either.

Fair enough. I guess I was forcing my own values on her (and you, to an extent).

 

[Suite Pee]

Considering that she works in an industry where she inevitably becomes a role model to many, this is incredibly irresponsible.

So Raven.

 

[Kisaya]

Seriously, I think you're a great example Kisaya - there are so many cultural things associated with being Arab, or Yemeni (I have a bit of Yemen in me too) or Muslim, and like... maybe you don't really care about any of it? Sure maybe some people are always going to associate you with those elements, but that doesn't mean that YOU have to help them by calling yourself Yemeni or whatever whenever you describe yourself. If these are irrelevant parts of your identity, then you shouldn't have to prop them up because it's expected of you.


If someone is black in the states, but doesn't really feel like their blackness is a relevant part of them, then who are we to deride them for not toeing the line? It seems like a not nice thing to do.

It's not really so much that I don't care about it. Maybe I would feel differently if I was born in Yemen, or if I spent more family vacations there, or if I could conversationally speak Arabic. But the thing is that I don't fall into any of those categories unlike the majority of people do with the culture their family is from, which is why it was always so hard to make friends with people who deeply enriched in their Arab/Yemeni culture. I definitely don't deny my ethnic background, but I can't comfortably make it a huge part of who I am either.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Black is not just a reference to skin color in America. It is also an ethnonym. Despite the fact that they would all be "black" they would still be able to tell the difference. Africans deal with this all the time. They can tell the difference between one another. An Igbo does not look like Somali who does not look Fulani. So while they are all "black" as in a reference to skin color (Igbos are typically light skin) African's typically don't use only skin color as a an identifier. If they can't place you, they will ask what ethnicity the person is because they don't look like their ethnic group and they don't look like an ethnic group they are familiar with. This is common with most people.

See all of the ethnic tension that take place throughout Africa despite the fact that most of them are "black". Your ethnicity doesn't ceased to exist just because you relocate somewhere else.

I'm a black American and I can usually tell the difference between a black American and a black Caribbean American. There are differences. Sometimes they are subtle but they are there.

You're exactly right that new labels appear to subcatagorize black people when everyone is already black, that's why i used the example of the hutu and tutsis. The same thing happens with east asian people in east asian countries. It just goes to show how meaningless the labels are in general.

A korean and a chinese dude are both asian for the most part in canada, but completely different races elsewhere in the world. the labels don't have to exist, and as we progress as a society they'ill eventually fade away.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Just... let her be happy people. If she feels no desire, no want or need to be deeply tied to African American culture, or gay culture, then great. Let her be happy with who she is, and don't burden her with an identity she doesn't want.

Sure, not everyone will give her that kindness, but everyone should.

Well said.

 

[RM8]

Considering that she works in an industry where she inevitably becomes a role model to many, this is incredibly irresponsible.

So Raven.

Actually, I appreciate the visibility of someone in a homosexual relationship who is not into divisive flags and a determined ruleset for people who happen to be attracted to people of their same gender.

 

[Mesousa]

Let me ask black gaf, specifically those in the thread who are upset at Rayven here.

I'm (mostly) Ethiopian, living in Canada, been here most of my life. Should I identify with black culture? Ethiopian culture? Canadian culture? If I say "I don't really care about being Ethiopian, I feel much more of an affinity with Toronto culture, so I want to talk about that aspect of my identity" - am I doing something wrong?

There is no such thing as an Ethiopian culture as there are many different groups which make up modern day Ethiopia. A habesha old orthodox christian is vastly different than an Afar or even Eastern Somali muslim group.

Something would be wrong if you are taught to hate the fact you are Ethiopian every day, and then decide you don't feel like you want to have that label associated with you. That is the reality black folks face in America, and exactly the reason why many black folks are quick to get as far away from it when they have the opportunity to do so.

 

[Infinite]

So the only people who can call themselves "African" are people from South Africa?

I don't think were on the same page. Like at all. I'm basically trying to illustrate why I don't like and particularly identify with the term African America.

 

[Kinitari]

There is no such thing as an Ethiopian culture as there are many different groups which make up modern day Ethiopia. A habesha old orthodox christian is vastly different than an Afar or even Eastern Somali muslim group.

Well.. yes and no, my mother is from Harar and my dad is from Dire Dawa - there are distinct cultural things to take from even those two cities, and then there are other ethiopian sub-cultures you can take from. But then there are overarching themes in Ethiopian cultures - coffee, Haile Selassie love, etc.

Something would be wrong if you are taught to hate the fact you are Ethiopian every day, and then decide you don't feel like you want to have that label associated with you. That is the reality black folks face in America, and exactly the reason why many black folks are quick to get as far away from it when they have the opportunity to do so.

But this is presumptive. This assumes that the reason that Rayven doesn't want to be associated with being black because she hates it - when it seems like she is saying that she just doesn't have any affinity to black culture. Why is it that we have to assume that she is hates/fears being labelled as black when really she just doesn't feel like it fits who she is?

 

[Cuphead]

I bet it's a robot anyway.

 

[Dai Kaiju]

...We're also a salad bowl -- not a melting pot

I do not know whether or not you came up with that analogy or heard it somewhere else, but either way it's very clever and very true.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I do not know whether or not you came up with that analogy or heard it somewhere else, but either way it's very clever and very true.

a bit of both really, you can't deny that cultural blending is a very real thing. and it's a good thing too in my humble opinion.

a lot of racial blending too.

<-- see fig. 1

i'd argue that toronto is a soup. lot's of individual elements, but with a common flavoring.

 

[Bleepey]

#newblack

#igetthatreference

 

[Floridian]

Raven is one of the very few child stars that I can actually respect. She doesn't have to act all crazy in public.

 

[terrisus]

I don't think were on the same page. Like at all. I'm basically trying to illustrate why I don't like and particularly identify with the term African America.

Sorry, I apologize. I do understand that, and certainly don't disagree with that. I guess my confusion/point of interest just came up in the issue with Africa being a continent, when the same issue exists with America (which is actually two continents), and yet there being a subset of people who identify themselves as "American."

 

[Kinitari]

a bit of both really, you can't deny that cultural blending is a very real thing. and it's a good thing too in my humble opinion.

a lot of racial blending too.

<-- see fig. 1

i'd argue that toronto is soup. lot's of individual elements, but with a common flavoring.

Food is always a good branch of cultural expression to highlight this. We have a lot of distinct ethnic foods in the city, but we also have a lot of foods that are sort of, combinations. Swiss Chalet has butter chicken. I've been to a few chinese places that have their own twists on things like poutine. Go to scarborough and there are maddd chinese x roti shops.

 

[Mesousa]

Well.. yes and no, my mother is from Harar and my dad is from Dire Dawa - there is distinct culturual things to take from even those two cities, and then there are other ethiopian sub-cultures you can take from. But then there are overarching themes in Ethiopian cultures - coffee, Haile Selase love, etc.



But this is presumptive. This assumes that the reason that Rayven doesn't want to be associated with being black because she hates it - when it seems like she is saying that she just doesn't have any affinity to black culture. Why is it that we have to assume that she is hates/fears being labelled as black when really she just doesn't feel like it fits who she is?

I know plenty of Ethiopans who hate Haile Selassie, especially when he took Oromo land in Shashamane in a poor attempt to bolster his support and gave it to a bunch of Jamaican weed heads who worshipped him...but you are right there are a few things which kind of binds different groups together. I think it can be assumed that is the culture she is coming from since a hatred of all things black is pretty heat in America

I think both of your parents groups(at least location-wise) fall into the wider Oromo group though. I know Harar use to be a trading post and a lot of the people there are mixed groups. That said, afaan Oromoo bikta?

 

[Mattlikewhoa]

Everybody wants to be black, yet no one wants to be black.

And we are done here!

 

[Kinitari]

I know plenty of Ethiopans who hate Haile Selassie, especially when he took Oromo land in Shashamane in a poor attempt to bolster his support and gave it to a bunch of Jamaican weed heads who worshipped him...but you are right there are a few things which kind of binds different groups together. I think it can be assumed that is the culture she is coming from since a hatred of all things black is pretty heat in America

I think both of your parents groups(at least location-wise) fall into the wider Oromo group though. I know Harar use to be a trading post and a lot of the people there are mixed groups. That said, afaan Oromoo bikta?

Yeah I know a few who aren't thrilled with him either, but when I went to visit I remember hearing a crapload of songs about him.

Yeah, they'd be categorized as Oromo, but they never spoke the language, at least not around me. It was all Hararian (or gey sinan as they called it). And my gey sinan is terrrrible!