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[JeTmAn81]

If the comment didn't create a hostile work environment for others or affect customers, she should be reprimanded and informed as to why the comment was inappropriate. You don't fire somebody for one stupid comment. Remember, employees have families which are greatly affected by their employment status.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Because it is highly improbable that a black woman would say she wouldn't want her child to date a black person, and even more improbable that she would say "Hey you gotta be careful who you let in your family!" which wouldn't make sense for her not wanting blacks in her family if she herself was black.

Isn't there multitudes of races and ethnicities who would say just as bigoted a statement?

You clearly are. Payroll is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what we do. Hell, there are three managers and one director and none of us do payroll at all. We farm that off to assistants and clerk typists.

The HR Training that I do (as head of training! hello!) is designed to make sure everyone has sufficient instruction to get their job done, as well as give us legal coverage when shit hits the fan.

Joe Asshole in D block decides to try to incite a riot and gets beaten down for it? He's likely going to try to sue.

When that happens, I need to whip out documentation that Officers Harry, Moe, And Curley who beat the shit out of him were not only informed of the excessive force policy (they were), but trained yearly on proper techniques and procedures (they are) and if they crossed a line then that liability is on them, and not the state, and they can defend themselves in court and the state is off the hook. If termination is required as a result then we need to coordinate with legal to make sure we have a proper paper trail and can terminate them with prejudice.

And I need to do this for over 1000 people, all with different classifications. Someone screws up in medical and dies on our watch? then I need to ensure that doctor or nurse is up to date on their certifications, instructions, and training so we can fend off malpractice suits.

And even THAT'S only a fraction of my workday. I don't have time to sit people in class to train them how to be decent human beings. Training costs money, and I prefer to spend that time on things that are critical, not things you should have learned in third grade.

Thanks for the education. I didn't know HR had so much to deal with when it comes down to deflecting liability. I also didn't know that those same legal liabilities extended to corrections. I was under the impression that being in prison meant losing certain civil liberties.

lolwut? Your reading comprehension is borderline remedial levels. I never said "if L was black".

Yea no shit, it especially makes black and Jewish co-workers uncomfortable. Their comfort and feelings > feelings of some racist.

It's not HR's job to make one see how bad it is to be racist in 2014. But by firing her she'll learn that lesson so...HR should fire her. That way the workplace won't be toxic and she can reflect on what got her fired and do some soul searching. And soul searching takes time...which she'll have plenty of if she's fired.

And firing her is going to make her all of a sudden less racist?

I bet you if a black coworker heard her and called her a "racist bitch". The people defending the ol racist lady wouldn't have any problems with that black employee being canned ASAP.

The people defending the ol racist lady wouldn't have any problems with that black employee being canned ASAP

The people defending the ol racist lady wouldn't have any problems with that black employee being canned ASAP

I don't know what L's race is. I only know she said some stupid shit and should be reprimanded for it.

But you speak as if I would choose one or the other. Don't talk for me, please.

Anyone who says racist or bigot shit in the workplace of any kind doesn't deserve jobs.

But that's not the real world. It isn't. Bigots hide behind labor unions, behind nepotism, and behind graft very often. Racists of any high status have options to hide. L didn't and she'll get hers Monday, whether justified or not.

I was under the impression that HR could cure or educate on something like that, but apparently it's not designed for that, so my ignorance is no longer.

I then ask why even have HR if it can't prevent the same type of issues employers pay to prevent.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Lots of people here calling each other "hateful" and "ignorant" for openly discussing their views. Geez. This is exactly why I wish debate class was mandatory in high school lmao. None of you know how to properly argue. =/

I agree there is no reason to go and make it personal but insinuating no one here knows how to debate it laughable. I don't agree with your position but you're entitled to it. I don't think you're a shit human being or anything. I have a friend who had people defriend him after a debate about Donald Sterling on facebook. He messaged me asking if I thought he was terrible and I just laughed. People just get so wound up over friendly debate.

 

[Devolution]

If the comment didn't create a hostile work environment for other or affect customers, she should be reprimanded and informed as to why the comment was inappropriate. You don't fire somebody for one stupid comment. Remember, employees have families which are greatly affected by their employment status.

And their coworkers are deserving of a toxic-free environment. I don't get this crap about employment status. People don't deserve their job, they earn their keep, if they "deserved" them there would be no real means to decide who to keep and who to let go.

 

[Carnby]

At most large companies you would have TONS of recourse for instance if the group treated you like a "snitch" afterwards. You could raise THAT as an issue and they would likely move you somewhere for you to be more comfortable and reprimand those who treated you like a "snitch.".

I 100% disagree. I was forced out of your cable and internet provider. It doesn't get much larger than that.

My coworkers excluded me on everything. I got the silent treatment from a lot of coworkers. If someone brought baked goods in, they would make a point to personally hand it out to everyone but me. Managers in other departments, who I was on great terms with, literally refused to look directly at me or speak to me for the last 9 months i was there. When i reported this to HR. "Maybe it was a misunderstanding, maybe they didn't see or hear you, maybe they are preoccupied? Im sorry, there's nothing we can do."

The breaking point was when i found out my schedule was being arranged so that i wasn't on the same shift with the racist. I called a meeting with HR and my boss. And told them that they lost all of my confidence in them ,and that i'm going to start looking for a new job. Nothing changed up until the day I left.

I learned the hard way ,that no one cares about racism or being offended or doing the right thing. That all stays on the exho chamber known as the internet, and it's never relevant to real life. Now when i hear awful comments that are racist or homophobic, i keep my head down and my mouth shut.

Sorry for the rant. But that experience pisses me off to this day. In no way was it a direct attack at you.

 

[JeTmAn81]

And their coworkers are deserving of a toxic-free environment. I don't get this crap about employment status. People don't deserve their job, they earn their keep, if they "deserved" them there would be no real means to decide who to keep and who to let go.

One comment doesn't make a toxic environment. If you have the power to fire someone you should have empathy for them as a human being with a life beyond the workplace.

 

[freeofgreed]

Lots of people here calling each other "hateful" and "ignorant" for openly discussing their views. Geez. This is exactly why I wish debate class was mandatory in high school lmao. None of you know how to properly argue. =/

C'mon dude you're guilty of exactly what your saying others are, by insulting people saying they are shit at debating, most of the debate I've seen here is pretty good except when people keep bringing up old arguments (which you yourself are guilty of). People aren't being called "ignorant" for discussing their views. They're being called ignorant because their views are ignorant, but I do agree that name calling won't get us far.

 

[Manmademan]

Thanks for the education. I didn't know HR had so much to deal with when it comes down to deflecting liability. I also didn't know that those same legal liabilities extended to corrections. I was under the impression that being in prison meant losing certain civil liberties.

Common misconception. Inmates still maintain the vast majority of their civil rights when incarcerated.

In some cases they have more rights than you do.

Inmates are wards of the state and have the right to food, clothing, shelter, and free healthcare. Homeless people should be so lucky.

 

[Devolution]

One comment doesn't make a toxic environment. If you have the power to fire someone you should have empathy for them as a human being with a life beyond the workplace.

Really? One comment doesn't? Oh okay sure, a racist, sexist or sexually harassing remark never changes the dynamic of the workplace, ever.

 

[freeofgreed]

One comment doesn't make a toxic environment. If you have the power to fire someone you should have empathy for them as a human being with a life beyond the workplace.

Yes it does, if I heard that a coworker said that I would not feel comfortable working with that person, and a lot of other people probably wont be either. That is the very definition of a toxic work environment.

Also I deeply apologize for not feeling empathy for a person who thinks i'm less then human and not suitable to date their daughter simply for the color of my skin despite them having never met me. Like people were saying earlier in the thread, her being fired means that someone else, whose hopefully not racist, will be able to get a job and that sounds alright to me.

 

[riotous]

I 100% disagree. I was forced out of your cable and internet provider. It doesn't get much larger than that.

Well that's one company.. I said most.. you disagree based on one experience.. it's an easy thing to do, to paint the whole world with the brush you have experience with.. but I'm telling you, it's not like that everywhere.

 

[Camp Lo]

I 100% disagree. I was forced out of your cable and internet provider. It doesn't get much larger than that.

My coworkers excluded me on everything. I got the silent treatment from a lot of coworkers. If someone brought baked goods in, they would make a point to personally hand it out to everyone but me. Managers in other departments, who I was on great terms with, literally refused to look directly at me or speak to me for the last 9 months i was there. When i reported this to HR. "Maybe it was a misunderstanding, maybe they didn't see or hear you, maybe they are preoccupied? Im sorry, there's nothing we can do."

The breaking point was when i found out my schedule was being arranged so that i wasn't on the same shift with the racist. I called a meeting with HR and my boss. And told them that they lost all of my confidence in them ,and that i'm going to start looking for a new job. Nothing changed up until the day I left.

I learned the hard way ,that no one cares about racism or being offended or doing the right thing. That all stays on the exho chamber known as the internet, and it's never relevant to real life. Now when i hear awful comments that are racist or homophobic, i keep my head down and my mouth shut.

Sorry for the rant. But that experience pisses me off to this day. In no way was it a direct attack at you.

You sound super jaded, man. I get why but that's not a reflection of many large companies. I hope you realize that.

 

[Letterbomb]

I agree there is no reason to go and make it personal but insinuating no one here knows how to debate it laughable. I don't agree with your position but you're entitled to it. I don't think you're a shit human being or anything. I have a friend who had people defriend him after a debate about Donald Sterling on facebook. He messaged me asking if I thought he was terrible and I just laughed. People just get so wound up over friendly debate.

My "none of you" generalization was a bit hasty, but it was directed exclusively toward those who are name calling in this thread. Not everyone arguing. I love to argue, but when I see people resort to ad hominem, I usually just bail out of the argument. Not worth discussing with people who can't separate their emotions from the debate, which truth be told, is most people in this thread.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

One comment doesn't make a toxic environment. If you have the power to fire someone you should have empathy for them as a human being with a life beyond the workplace.

Misguided view point. I don't know about you but I've worked in groups where someone makes a really fucking stupid comment and the whole environment goes to shit because of it. Firing should not be treated lightly, it's a huge amount of power to have but empathy should have no roll in it. There have to be clearly defined rules and you have to take the well being of your other employees into account. Just because I feel bad about your situation it doesn't mean that I can let you get away with poisoning the well.

 

[Carnby]

Well that's one company.. I said most.. you disagree based on one experience.. it's an easy thing to do, to paint the whole world with the brush you have experience with.. but I'm telling you, it's not like that everywhere.

Of course one experience doesn't represent everyone's. Ive continued to work at gigantic corporations in their corporate offices. I still hear of color comments, and No One cares.

I will never "do the right thing" again.

 

[JeTmAn81]

A hostile work environment exists when an employee experiences workplace harassment and fears going to work because of the offensive, intimidating, or oppressive atmosphere generated by the harasser.

The United States Supreme Court stated in Oncale v. Sundowner Offshore Services,[4] that Title VII is "not a general civility code." Thus, federal law within the USA does not prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not extremely serious. Rather, the conduct must be so objectively offensive as to alter the conditions of the individual's employment. The conditions of employment are altered only if the harassment culminates in a tangible employment action or are sufficiently severe or pervasive.

You'd have a hard time selling that woman's comment as something that plausibly creates a hostile work environment for anyone.

 

[Manmademan]

I 100% disagree. I was forced out of your cable and internet provider. It doesn't get much larger than that.

My coworkers excluded me on everything. I got the silent treatment from a lot of coworkers. If someone brought baked goods in, they would make a point to personally hand it out to everyone but me. Managers in other departments, who I was on great terms with, literally refused to look directly at me or speak to me for the last 9 months i was there. When i reported this to HR. "Maybe it was a misunderstanding, maybe they didn't see or hear you, maybe they are preoccupied? Im sorry, there's nothing we can do."

The breaking point was when i found out my schedule was being arranged so that i wasn't on the same shift with the racist. I called a meeting with HR and my boss. And told them that they lost all of my confidence in them ,and that i'm going to start looking for a new job. Nothing changed up until the day I left.

I learned the hard way ,that no one cares about racism or being offended or doing the right thing. That all stays on the exho chamber known as the internet, and it's never relevant to real life. Now when i hear awful comments that are racist or homophobic, i keep my head down and my mouth shut.

Sorry for the rant. But that experience pisses me off to this day. In no way was it a direct attack at you.

This is exactly why we have a zero tolerance policy in effect. Retaliation is a hell of a thing, and it is VERY difficult to prove. It's a lot easier for me to determine that Employee X said racist thing Y to Employee Z, than it is for me to determine who is being frozen out via ridiculous interoffice politics.

 

[Camp Lo]

Of course one experience doesn't represent everyone's. Ive continued to work at gigantic corporations in their corporate offices. I still hear of color comments, and No One cares.

I will never "do the right thing" again.

That's fine but because someone else decides to doesn't mean they will meet the same fate.

 

[riotous]

Of course one experience doesn't represent everyone's. Ive continued to work at gigantic corporations in their corporate offices. I still hear of color comments, and No One cares.

I will never "do the right thing" again.

Where do you live?

It really can have an affect.. even at a large company with corporate offices elsewhere.. if you are in a satellite office in an area with more racists you probably would have more issues.

Either way I'm sorry for your experience and am not trying to rag on you or anything.. just saying I've had the opposite experience as a consultant working inside of numerous fortune 50's the last decade.

 

[Carnby]

That's fine but because someone else decides to doesn't mean they will meet the same fate.

We'll see.

 

[freeofgreed]

Isn't there multitudes of races and ethnicities who would say just as bigoted a statement?

Yes any ethnicity could say that, but in OP's specific case it is highly unlikely that it would be a black person saying that due to the nature of the conversation that the OP posted.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

You sound super jaded, man. I get why but that's not a reflection of many large companies. I hope you realize that.

What he stated does happen in big companies. It politics among lower level employees and it's sad. I've done plenty of case studies dealing with management where petty bullshit makes peoples lives harder. It's pretty common especially in manufacturing. This is why you need strong leaders in management positions who will stamp out that bullshit because honestly, if I was a manager and I observed this going on, I would shred out the ring leader of this really quick. It's managements responsibility to make it damn well known why X person was fired and if any mistreatment is given towards Y for it, you will suffer punishment.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

And their coworkers are deserving of a toxic-free environment. I don't get this crap about employment status. People don't deserve their job, they earn their keep, if they "deserved" them there would be no real means to decide who to keep and who to let go.

So you're in favor of the upper echelon, career-type, daddy-appointed nepotistic douchebag employee manager/decision-maker deciding what a "toxic-free" environment is and that anyone serving under his clutches and daring to defy his arbitrary and on-the-spot rulings "deserves" to be buried in your feces?

 

[ishibear]

You'd have a hard time selling that woman's comment as something that plausibly creates a hostile work environment for anyone.

Her comments offended and upset OP and R. When OP tried to reason with her, she got indignant.

Definitely sounds like enough reason to feel like she's causing discomfort and hostility in the workplace.

 

[Abounder]

Of course one experience doesn't represent everyone's. Ive continued to work at gigantic corporations in their corporate offices. I still hear of color comments, and No One cares.

I will never "do the right thing" again.

The Wolf on Wall Street is more of a documentary than I thought

 

[Carnby]

Either way I'm sorry for your experience and am not trying to rag on you or anything.. just saying I've had the opposite experience as a consultant working inside of numerous fortune 50's the last decade.

It's cool. When I vent about this, I am in no way directing my frustration at you.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Her comments offended and upset OP and R. When OP tried to reason with her, she got indignant.

Definitely sounds like enough reason to feel like she's causing discomfort and hostility in the workplace.

There's a legal definition is what I'm saying. This wouldn't fit that. Not that it would really matter if this took place in an at-will state.

 

[Camp Lo]

What he stated does happen in big companies. It politics among lower level employees and it's sad. I done plenty of case studies dealing with management where petty bullshit makes peoples lives harder. It's pretty common especially in manufacturing.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, hell I recall watching a Vice documentary on a NYPD cop getting his shit pushed in for telling on corrupted cops. I can't fault him for keeping his mouth shut either, hell, he has to take care of his own. But doing the right thing doesn't always end in being ostracized, often times people get termed.

 

[The Broken Ska Record]

If you have the power to fire someone you should have empathy for them as a human being with a life beyond the workplace.

Everyone has a life beyond the workplace. It doesn't matter if you just got a new car, had a child, or whatever. If YOU fuck up, it's you that pays the price.

 

[ishibear]

There's a legal definition is what I'm saying. This wouldn't fit that. Not that it would really matter if this took place in an at-will state.

Yes but the law sometimes paints these situations black and white where it shouldn't. Should they wait around until she actually does offend a black or Jewish person? Or perhaps they're better off removing the problem before it tries to happen.

This is similar to being in a work environment with a creep who makes a lot of sexual remarks about people. Once you give them a warning and they get indignant, their warnings have run their course. At that point, they deserve the boot. Stop the behavior before the damage is done.

 

[LuchaShaq]

I'll never get the weird apprehension to call black people, black people. I have never ever in my life heard somebody refer to another American as European American socially.

Yup I never have used or thought to use hyphen American unless the person is a super recent immigrant or have dual citizenship.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

If the comment didn't create a hostile work environment for others or affect customers,

It did.

Being a known racist tends to make work environments hostile.

racism is in and of itself pretty fucking hostile.

We're basically, at this point, learning who here has no problem with devaluing the harm racism has not just in a specific workplace, but on the culture in general. The reasoning for this is, almost to a person, ASTOUNDINGLY fucking weak, too.

Devaluing entire races of people, verbally, in front of co-workers, including a superior = stern talking to, maybe a suspension.
Single person held accountable for destructive beliefs/behaviors at work = overreaction.

 

[Byakuya769]

So you're in favor of the upper echelon, career-type, daddy-appointed nepotistic douchebag employee manager/decision-maker deciding what a "toxic-free" environment is and that anyone serving under his clutches and daring to defy his arbitrary and on-the-spot rulings "deserves" to be buried in your feces?

All aboard the slippery slope train!

 

[The Broken Ska Record]

All aboard the slippery slope train!

I mean what's next? Are we going to allow dogs to get gay married and run our HR departments? Wake up, sheeple.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Wait, people are actually saying racist comments and behavior don't create a hostile work environment? What?

Do you think "hostile" only refers to violence or someone bringing a weapon or something to work? It doesn't. In the work place, "hostile" and "making others uncomfortable" often run tangentially to each other, as they should. She doesn't need to raise her fists in order to create hostility, or wait for a Jewish and/or black person to walk in so she can insult them.

Hostile: unfriendly; antagonistic.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

Me, her (lets call her L) and another coworker (lets call him R) were in a meeting. L is a 50 something from northern Michigan. After working for a bit, L started talking about her daughter. It was not unusual. You want to lighten the mood/pressure from work every now and then. Her daughter started dating someone from Europe. Me and R were like Good for her etc.

And then it comes, "My mom has two cardinal rules on dating: No blacks and and no Jews!". Me and R stare at each other with our eyes widened and mouh agape for a good 10 seconds. She thinks its funny and continues on "Hey you gotta be careful who you let in your family!" Now R is an indirect manager. He gets up and excuses himself out and informs the higher ups. I tell L she shouldnt say things like that, and that she is wrong when she groups people like that and think all of them are bad for her daughter. She says that as a parent she has a right over who her daughter is dating and she doesn't want "Jive talking guy from the south side (Chicago) hanging around with her daughter!". I tell her she shouldnt judge people like that and that its racist. She is oblivious to how screwed up she is, both mentally and job-wise.

Anyway, the HR are on it and I spoke to them.

Sounds about right for a lot of people from Northern Michigan, a lot of areas and people make it seem like the negative side of the stereotypical South.

 

[Malyse]

Holy shit. I need an adult.

Hey you. You there typing your rationale as to why she doesn't deserve to lose her job for being a shitty person. Yeah you. Oh and the one who's typing a comment about how OP was wrong to report her to HR. Stop. Stop typing. Go back to the beginning and reread the thread. You've clearly missed a few things and I would hate for you to needlessly expose your ignorant fuckery in so public a forum. So take a break and start over from the beginning. And if you reach this post again and still think you have a valid point, start over again. Cause you don't.

 

[Byakuya769]

I mean what's next? Are we going to allow dogs to get gay married and run our HR departments? Wake up, sheeple.

Hahaha

 

[Byakuya769]

I mean what's next? Are we going to allow dogs to get gay married and run our HR departments? Wake up, sheeple.

Hahaha

 

[GaimeGuy]

Being from northern Michigan, I can even hear her say that.
We're pretty isolated and ignorant of the world up there.

Yes.

Spoiler

<3

 

[Htown]

Wait, people are actually saying racist comments and behavior don't create a hostile work environment? What?

I mean, unless they got a Klan hood on and have a rope in their hand, there's no way a comment could be hostile! Even then, let's not jump to conclusions. Maybe they're just cosplaying as a jump-roping ghost for Halloween!

 

[Korey]

Wait. Why is anyone defending someone who said this in the workplace:

"My mom has two cardinal rules on dating: No blacks and and no Jews! Hey you gotta be careful who you let in your family! [I don't want a] Jive talking guy from the south side hanging around with my daughter!"​

There's a legal definition is what I'm saying. This wouldn't fit that. Not that it would really matter if this took place in an at-will state.

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Stop it.

 

[SwampFox]

Perfect gif use

 

[MechaX]

One comment doesn't make a toxic environment. If you have the power to fire someone you should have empathy for them as a human being with a life beyond the workplace.

If you were a black person and you heard that, how in the world wouldn't that make a... Hell, even in the OP's story, his other co-worker had to excuse himself imm-...

GAF, are we really having this convo right now? Is this real life?

 

[Devolution]

If you were a black person and you heard that, how in the world wouldn't that make a... Hell, even in the OP's story, his other co-worker had to excuse himself imm-...

GAF, are we really having this convo right now? Is this real life?

Calling black and jews inferior doesn't make for a toxic work environment though.

 

[Skeyser]

Calling black and jews inferior doesn't make for a toxic work environment though.

when there are black and jews working there? really now?

 

[Messofanego]

Damn, so many people ok with casual racism. First offense lol

Have a can of Diet Racism™

 

[GaimeGuy]

Have a can of Diet Racism™

You really do love those SunhiLegend gifs, don't you?

(Me too)

 

[Messofanego]

You really do love those SunhiLegend gifs, don't you?

(Me too)

Legend for a reason!

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

Yes.

Spoiler

<3

I see you have experience in that matter GaimeGuy. Are you from northern Michigan?