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[JesseEwiak]

I think the reaction to Polygon's 7.5 over in the Bayonetta 2 thread is proof that even here within our protective bubble of GAF, there's plenty of people who don't understand the concept that a review can be more about the mechanics of a game.

So, it's not a huge shocker that people who can't even find GAF would go nuts over somebody downgrading their review of a game due to issues beyond resolution or game mechanics. Expect #GG to be in full force tomorrow once everybody wakes up about the review.

 

[SwissLion]

Give me some hard data to substantiate what you're saying. The burden of proof is on you. Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.

We have the undeniable fact that Gamergate has not led to any positive change in the industry. It has led to a lot of negative, harmful, regressive stuff.

The closest I can even think of is the Escapist moderately revising and reiterating their ethics policy, which was something that already existed.

Donating to charities out of spite isn't positive change, TFYC are at best naive and at worst shady when it comes to how concrete their "Getting women into games" stuff is, and again, it was largely donating to charity specifically to spite Zoe Quinn.

This goes for Boogie as well. Give me one example of unambiguously positive change, or even positive arguments, aims, or reasoning, and I'll reconsider my stance that GG is composed entirely of some proportion of the misinformed and the bigoted.

 

[zeldablue]

I think the reaction to Polygon's 7.5 over in the Bayonetta 2 thread is proof that even here within our protective bubble of GAF, there's plenty of people who don't understand the concept that a review can be more about the mechanics of a game.

So, it's not a huge shocker that people who can't even find GAF would go nuts over somebody downgrading their review of a game due to issues beyond resolution or game mechanics. Expect #GG to be in full force tomorrow once everybody wakes up about the review.

What did it get marked down for?

Being a Wii U exclusive? :C

 

[Zen]

th #gg stuff is only a small fraction of what I'm doing. Trust me. I'm mostly focused on the other stuff. its just this thread is focusing only on that small part of what I am and what I do. that's why we discuss it here.

Lets instead talk about my merits for a while and I think I'd feel a lot better, instead.

Boogie, speaking as someone who has found this whole ordeal emotional painful (it took me damn near two months to even be able to effectively discuss this with someone in real life without facing an anxiety attack), I feel like sharing. If nothing else my pain, but I feel like our experiences (or emotional temperament) might be somewhat similar in this area. This is highly presumptuous of me, so if nothing else take this as one person needing to vent, but my intention is to offer perspective.

I might be off base, but from my experience I think the absolute worst part about putting yourself out there on a charged issue is attacked from everywhere and knowing people will instantly write you off as this or that no matter how many qualifiers you present - it doesn't matter what the charges levied are, still somehow you worry 'oh god, what if they're actually right'? I have often worried that contradictory judgement are both true, simultaneously. I find the concept terrifying and has been a source of difficulty in my life, I can only imagine what it must be like for you if you have similar issues in this area.

But something that has really helped me, and I feel like more and more I am making progress, is coming to accept that at the end of the day, all that matters is you spoke honestly and true to yourself. Those same people who write you off as this or that are likely flawed like everyone else. It's easy to say 'love yourself' or 'just have confidence in yourself', but so what right? It's so easy for someone to just say that, or for you to just 'try to believe' and feel like you're are lying to yourself all the while. Everything I just told you sounds like a two dollar self help book, right?

Here's the part where I finally managed to start breaking the cycle of ups and downs, and feeling like I was lying to myself by trying to believe. I took all that fear I feel, all that value I put in the insults and judgments hurled my way and started placing it in the words of those who value me, who told me things about myself that I never believed, good things things that I knew were true but could never accept because I hated myself that much.

People will always find reasons to dislike you in life for what you do, what matters is who you are, and how the people that see you, and I mean see you as a person or know you really well, feel about you.

I don't know you, I will never know you and you will never know me, I don't subscribe to your channel, I never watched the video you made about your past, and we will never meet.

But when I watch your videos, or hear you speak, I feel your warmth, I instantly feel what a good person you are, and how you mean your words and convictions, I see how troubled you seem, and I feel your goodness through that ten fold.

If you aren't ready to believe in yourself, believe in that and eventually you'll be able to believe in it for yourself too, and be able to deal with the with people disliking you without believing it in some dark corner. Trolls are going to troll, people are going to disagree with you in life no matter what you do, but not for one second do I believe that any person who is being honest with themselves, doubts your warmth and caring. Whatever else, it doesn't matter.

 

[Messofanego]

I would also like to add that the shit I read here in this thread discussed in my absence hurts me more than the shit I read on 4-chan about how I was an 'oppurtunistic schill' who wanted to 'count his shekels' and was only involved so that I could 'profiteer like a war baron'.

Instead coming here to find that my years of work trying to support diversity in gaming is not only unappreciated but entirely dismissed because I can also defend gamers at the same fucking time.

good stuff.

again, I'm begging you, to have the fucking decency to end me.

Well, that sucks if people are insulting you here or doing anything wrong, sorry. If you link specific posts to mods, they can get it sorted out.

I haven't kept up with this thread, but I just see that associating with this campaign that was built on hate and harassment and trying to turn it into a positive force while people still harass in its name and make women in the industry leave their homes, is not the best of ideological moves. If #gamergate was only just about gaming ethics/journalism, those things wouldn't still be happening in its name.

Honestly, what good has come out of this campaign towards improving "biased and corrupt journalism"? The only thing good in gaming ethics/journalism I've seen is because of TotalBiscuit bringing up brand deals with Youtubers and videogame publishers (after XB1M13, EA Ronku BF4) and publishers have responded with "sweeping changes to contracts" according to you, but that is completely unrelated to #gamergate and more to do with how there's zero ethical standards in the youtube scene which has been piling on in the gaming news since last year.

 

[JesseEwiak]

What did it get marked down for?

Being a Wii U exclusive? :C

Basically, sexism reasons. Which, whether or not you agree with the review, is a perfectly valid reason to criticize the game for.

 

[Tripon]

What did it get marked down for?

Being a Wii U exclusive? :C

For Bayonetta being a sex positive figure.

 

[BobbyRobby]

Boogie, I think the article below might be some good reading. I think your heart's in the right place, but GamerGate is hurting people and I don't think you want that. I've seen you get hurt as a result of it and I don't want that either. I think it is well to have discussion about problems in the videogame industry, but the discourse available via GamerGate is compromised. In order to have a discussion, one side cannot be fearful while the other side is disrespectful. GamerGate establishes that as a precondition to any discourse within it, making discussion impossible. Saying you want to "talk" while you have a gun pointed at my head is not a discussion.

Given his current vulnerable state, do you think this would be a good time to denounce gamergate and open himself up for abuse?

Boogie should just be himself. Speak honestly and ignore the partisan mess.

 

[benjipwns]

Honestly, what good has come out of this campaign towards improving "biased and corrupt journalism"?

This image is so adorable.

 

[Nekofrog]

I see footage from games that are misrepresented sometimes and when this happens it frustrates me. I agree with the majority of her issues but sometimes I feel she misrepresents aspects of a game to deliver the point. as a gamer who has played many of these games, its frustrating.

And it's your right to disagree, man. It's totally fine. Disagree, debate, move on.

GamerGate is not about disagreeing/debating/moving on. Gamergate is about disagreeing and making that persons life fucking HELL for even daring to say something that they don't agree with and have grossly misinterpreted.

There is no middle ground here. When you say you're defending gamers, and by extention gamergate, you're looking at it incorrectly. Why? Because gamergate isn't about defending gamers, it's about excluding everyone who is not the norm. It's about harassing, threatening, and strong arming people who aren't "them" out.

This is not something to defend. This is something to stand against.

<3 and hope you feel better. Don't take it all so harshly, man.

 

[RubberJohnny]

Sorry, who are this "other side" from Gamergate? "The SJWs" keep getting mentioned, but the people actually attacked all seem to be very down to earth and reasonable people who have done nothing wrong.

It seems from here the opposition to Gamergate is from regular people who have looked into the claims, realised that they lack any evidence at all and are just kind of grossed out by the abuse against women (and all of the targets have been women), including harassing them out of home.

No one actually seems to say who these extremist "SJWs" are in gaming, they seem to be a spectre that's basically used to legitimise the use of any tactic - doxxing and harassment are fine because it's against this mysterious group that are taking over gaming based on a bunch of clichés from echo chambers?

 

[MrGerbils]

your worry is misguided. I've been in charge of what I said for 7 years prior to the gamergate hashtag existing and I'll be here saying the same shit 7 years after its abandoned.

provided one of you doesn't do me the favor I'm begging you to do and fucking put me out of my misery.

Dude, video games aren't that serious. They're at worst a toy and at best a hobby. Getting so worked up over them to the point of wanting to end your life is going way overboard.

Even outside of the misogynists that I really do think make up the majority of GG (there's a reason Doritosgate didn't last this long or get vitriolic death threats that required FBI involvement, and that reason is vaginas), to the moderates I still wonder.... Why do you care this much? Even if a game dev had slept with a blogger for a mention on some shitty blog.... Who the fuck cares? There is actual corruption in the world that ruins people's lives, that makes it hard for families to put food on the table, that is putting innocent people in to prison, or really anything else other than the "ethics" in the review policies of entertainment media.

The very worst thing I've heard from the moderate GGers is that maybe a shitty gawker blog that publishes PR press releases and writes buyers guides for toys may have been swayed by some personal relationships. Is this really so shocking? This isn't some cash payout that affected the safety ratings on the car you're buying that may or may not blow up and kill your children. It's a buyers guide on a $60 piece of throw away entertainment. The very worst thing that could possibly happen is that you waste $60 on purchasing a piece of software that you don't like because some dude got a BJ and then wrote a review. The absolute most this calls for is for you to stop visiting that site. It's not marriage equality. It doesn't need a fucking social movement.

Is this really that big a deal? Dorritosgate was just as fucking stupid. I honestly don't give a fuck if Elijah Wood blew the entire crew at Entertainment Tonight to get a good movie review. At worst it means I wasted $12 and a couple hours watching LotR. There are an infinite number of more important things in the world to worry about than so called games journalism.

This isn't journalism. These are people who for the most part repost PR press releases with minor changes and occasionally write buyers guides on entertainment media. There's no political scandal, there's no serious repercussions. The game that's been most involved in this shit is free! And if this is about supposed journalistic ethics and not misogyny, why the hell is Anita Sarkisian ever even mentioned? She's not a journalist or game developer. She shouldn't even be mentioned in passing for any so called moderate on GG issues. Why would you even mention her if what you care about as a GG moderate is journalistic ethics? Completely unrelated to the topic.

The gamers are dead shit is about the people who think the ethics of reviewing entertainment media is so important they wish they would die over some dumb noncontroversy. People who review and comment on entertainment media form relationships with the people who make that media. It's really not that big a deal.

The death threats and hatred spewed at the women just trying to make a living in this industry is a big deal, and it's what you should actually be caring about.

 

[bootski]

I'm just so goddamned tired of getting doxxed, and getting death threats, and getting attacked on every social media outlet every day. I've been waiting for the proverbial hammer to drop on me for SEVEN FUCKING YEARS. I'm just tired of waiting. I'm just tired of being afraid to check my mail or answer my door. I'm tired of being criticised for every little thing i do. I'm tired of reading about what a piece of shit I am. I'm tired of coming here to see that perpetuated for almost what now... 2 months?

christ. i'm just fucking exhausted. I hope whoever is going to make good on these death threats will just fucking get it done already. I'm not afraid of dying, but i'm terrified of continuing to live in fear.

for what it's worth, i think what you're doing is great. being the voice of reason or at least moderation in a shitty situation is more than most, if any, people involved in this whole debacle can claim. at this point, there's been enough shitty things done on both sides that the only thing that's been proven is that there are some seriously twisted people out there (which we already knew).

if reppin' #gamergate or #notyourshield or whatever falls in line with what you want to do, go for it. i wouldn't put any stock in what a lot of the posters here, or eleswhere, say about what you're trying to do. as long as you're doing it with the level of deceny that you've done pretty much everything else in your career.

the comments about you hurting yourself bother me a lot. i hope you're getting help and have people not involved with this bullshit to lean on.

 

[zeldablue]

Basically, sexism reasons. Which, whether or not you agree with the review, is a perfectly valid reason to criticize the game for.

Ah...

Well if there's a cutscene skip then I'm still onboard. I'm not a fan of the T&A, but a 7.5 seems pretty low for an action game they claim to be good. I don't think it's that odd, Japanese games get low scores all the time for being too weird, annoying or angsty. Lol.

 

[Blyr]

These are people, not imaginary beasts, who do not want video games to change, they refuse to hear any sort of criticism and along the way spout homophobic, racist, and women hating garbage at anyone who doesn't agree with them.

This I disagree with, completely.

I started supporting #GamerGate because of the "Gamers are dead" articles. To me, Gamer is more than a label. It's a banner that people unite under, because of a love of videogames. It's the idea that differences in race, gender, social status, wealth, etc. faded into the background, because we were all just gamers.

Seeing those articles saying that gamers are dead, and that "now you babies have to accept women into your boys club" was incredibly frustrating, because it feels like no one understands what Gamer actually meant.

So I found like-minded people, who too thought Gamer was just an inclusive term we could unite under, and they fell under the tag #GamerGate. Any of the people I've talked to in the #gamergate tag have shared these views. Seeing people say things like the above just reignites that feeling of "what? No, you don't understand".

It's frustrating, and I think that's how boogie feels too. Being misrepresented is such an incredibly frustrating feeling. Being told that you ARE a misogynist when you were only joining a cause to fight back against the specific people who told you that what you believed in was wrong was such a massive shock to the system.

It still bugs me to hear it now, because that isn't why I, nor many people I know, joined #GamerGate. That's why many of those people have stuck with it for so long.

To be fair though, things have gotten incredibly gross. I stuck around for a week before I decided I didn't care what a bunch of websites I never visited thought of me or my ideals, and I kind of felt dumb for my knee-jerk reaction. I know a lot of people on the #GamerGate side who are coming to that realization slowly, and a lot of people who actually believe in the ethics stuff, are getting sick and tired of having the "movement" co-opted by political parties.

I've went back on twitter and tried to inform people essentially what Boogie's video was, that "if you don't agree with it, don't give it traffic", but people are struggling with that.

I also feel that's why Boogie is so strongly defending #GamerGate, because he feels the same way I did/do. Gamer actually MEANS something to us, and when you attacked it, we took up arms under a banner (misguided as it may be) and took a stand against that BS. He is / was sticking up for the people who are idealistic, (even naive, I guess) because he had the same reaction we did, and he doesn't want to see anyone get hurt.

People who are doing the harassment, and the ZQ stuff? Gross. Super super gross. I haven't actually witnessed anyone I know participating in harassment, but it's the internet and people can be whoever they want whenever they want, so I don't know for sure if they are / aren't active participants.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Is it not possible or reasonable that I have learned, grown, and become a better person since making those statements? Isn't that what this whole debate, and life itself, about? becoming a better you?

I've become a better me and I'm trying to do better.

How about you go find the tweets that I sent to zoe directly apologizing for any harm I had ever caused her, and her saying that I've done nothing of the sort and that I was 'cool' with her?

Except you're back here claiming "crazy gonna crazy." As if that's the only issue.

OK, let's pretend there is no harassment going on.

More than a small minority went after intel in the attempts to hurt Gamasutra because they don't want video game articles to talk about social issues in their video games. If you look at keywords in the hashtag, many more people mention Zoe or Anita or Leigh than actual ethics. They are now going after Sony to not advertise on Kotaku. You say you are defending Anita and Zoe. But even these "moderates" don't want Anita to have a platform. They want social issues out of video game articles and comentary. They want them to shut up so much they will try to get the sites that publish them to be shut down. This is the moderate face of the hashtag. Is that what you support?

On one hand you have the shadowy harassers going after individuals, and you have the public face going after the companies. This is your movement.

 

[BobbyRobby]

The death threats and hatred spewed at the women just trying to make a living in this industry is a big deal, and it's what you should actually be caring about.

He does. I just watched his breakdown video and he's said as much.

Maybe you shouldn't be moralizing and laying on guilt right now.

 

[JesseEwiak]

This I disagree with, completely.

I started supporting #GamerGate because of the "Gamers are dead" articles. To me, Gamer is more than a label. It's a banner that people unite under, because of a love of videogames. It's the idea that differences in race, gender, social status, wealth, etc. faded into the background, because we were all just gamers.

Seeing those articles saying that gamers are dead, and that "now you babies have to accept women into your boys club" was incredibly frustrating, because it feels like no one understands what Gamer actually meant.

So I found like-minded people, who too thought Gamer was just an inclusive term we could unite under, and they fell under the tag #GamerGate. Any of the people I've talked to in the #gamergate tag have shared these views. Seeing people say things like the above just reignites that feeling of "what? No, you don't understand".

It's frustrating, and I think that's how boogie feels too. Being misrepresented is such an incredibly frustrating feeling. Being told that you ARE a misogynist when you were only joining a cause to fight back against the specific people who told you that what you believed in was wrong was such a massive shock to the system.

It still bugs me to hear it now, because that isn't why I, nor many people I know, joined #GamerGate. That's why many of those people have stuck with it for so long.

To be fair though, things have gotten incredibly gross. I stuck around for a week before I decided I didn't care what a bunch of websites I never visited thought of me or my ideals, and I kind of felt dumb for my knee-jerk reaction. I know a lot of people on the #GamerGate side who are coming to that realization slowly, and a lot of people who actually believe in the ethics stuff, are getting sick and tired of having the "movement" co-opted by political parties.

I've went back on twitter and tried to inform people essentially what Boogie's video was, that "if you don't agree with it, don't give it traffic", but people are struggling with that.

I also feel that's why Boogie is so strongly defending #GamerGate, because he feels the same way I did/do. Gamer actually MEANS something to us, and when you attacked it, we took up arms under a banner (misguided as it may be) and took a stand against that BS. He is / was sticking up for the people who are idealistic, (even naive, I guess) because he had the same reaction we did, and he doesn't want to see anyone get hurt.

People who are doing the harassment, and the ZQ stuff? Gross. Super super gross. I haven't actually witnessed anyone I know participating in harassment, but it's the internet and people can be whoever they want whenever they want, so I don't know for sure if they are / aren't active participants.

Again. I'm a pro wrestling fan.

When somebody says, "ya' know, a lot of pro wrestling fans are assholes who are sexist toward women wrestlers, don't react well to people who aren't like them, and still have some issues with homophobia and react creepily to women involved in the industry," I don't go, "that's not me! I'm offended."

Ya' know why? Because I know many pro wrestling fans are creepy toward women wrestlers (less in recent years, thank Jebus), still yell horrible homophobic shit to wrestlers (again, less than in previous years), and still react way too positively toward violence against women by men, even when the men are supposed to be "bad guys."

I don't go on Twitter and yell at a woman wrestler who talks about being told to show her tits on an indy show that she's probably faking that entire incident or something along those lines.

You can be a gamer without defending the shitty attitudes and actions of other gamers just like I can be a pro wrestling fan without defending the shitty attitudes and actions of other pro wrestling fans.

 

[jgminto]

Hooooooooly shit! This is an actually serious image somebody made. It might be the most hilariously fucking stupid thing I have ever seen!

 

[zeldablue]

Again. I'm a pro wrestling fan.

When somebody says, "ya' know, a lot of pro wrestling fans are assholes who are sexist toward women wrestlers, don't react well to people who aren't like them, and still have some issues with homophobia and react creepily to women involved in the industry," I don't go, "that's not me! I'm offended."

Ya' know why? Because I know many pro wrestling fans are creepy toward women wrestlers (less in recent years, thank Jebus), still yell horrible homophobic shit to wrestlers (again, less than in previous years), and still react way too positively toward violence against women by men, even when the men are supposed to be "bad guys."

I don't go on Twitter and yell at a woman wrestler who talks about being told to show her tits on an indy show that she's probably faking that entire incident or something along those lines.

You can be a gamer without defending the shitty attitudes and actions of other gamers just like I can be a pro wrestling fan without defending the shitty attitudes and actions of other pro wrestling fans.

Exactly. I've been a gamer for as long as I can remember. Went to school for games, advertising and design. Dedicated my life to my love for games and its culture.

And I STILL know that sexual harassment and sexism are huge problems. I know because there are so many girls who sit there in silence while it happens. And they can't talk about it while boys are in the room because they're scared of touching "the bee's nest."

I see no reason why I would attack someone for pointing out the obvious. It's counter-intuitive to attack the messenger, instead of the problem.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Hooooooooly shit! This is an actually serious image somebody made. It might be the most hilariously fucking stupid thing I have ever seen!

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

This I disagree with, completely.

I started supporting #GamerGate because of the "Gamers are dead" articles. To me, Gamer is more than a label. It's a banner that people unite under, because of a love of videogames. It's the idea that differences in race, gender, social status, wealth, etc. faded into the background, because we were all just gamers.

Seeing those articles saying that gamers are dead, and that "now you babies have to accept women into your boys club" was incredibly frustrating, because it feels like no one understands what Gamer actually meant.

So I found like-minded people, who too thought Gamer was just an inclusive term we could unite under, and they fell under the tag #GamerGate. Any of the people I've talked to in the #gamergate tag have shared these views. Seeing people say things like the above just reignites that feeling of "what? No, you don't understand".

It's frustrating, and I think that's how boogie feels too. Being misrepresented is such an incredibly frustrating feeling. Being told that you ARE a misogynist when you were only joining a cause to fight back against the specific people who told you that what you believed in was wrong was such a massive shock to the system.

It still bugs me to hear it now, because that isn't why I, nor many people I know, joined #GamerGate. That's why many of those people have stuck with it for so long.

To be fair though, things have gotten incredibly gross. I stuck around for a week before I decided I didn't care what a bunch of websites I never visited thought of me or my ideals, and I kind of felt dumb for my knee-jerk reaction. I know a lot of people on the #GamerGate side who are coming to that realization slowly, and a lot of people who actually believe in the ethics stuff, are getting sick and tired of having the "movement" co-opted by political parties.

I've went back on twitter and tried to inform people essentially what Boogie's video was, that "if you don't agree with it, don't give it traffic", but people are struggling with that.

I also feel that's why Boogie is so strongly defending #GamerGate, because he feels the same way I did/do. Gamer actually MEANS something to us, and when you attacked it, we took up arms under a banner (misguided as it may be) and took a stand against that BS. He is / was sticking up for the people who are idealistic, (even naive, I guess) because he had the same reaction we did, and he doesn't want to see anyone get hurt.

People who are doing the harassment, and the ZQ stuff? Gross. Super super gross. I haven't actually witnessed anyone I know participating in harassment, but it's the internet and people can be whoever they want whenever they want, so I don't know for sure if they are / aren't active participants.

But as it has been stated many, many, many times: it simply does not matter that you individually don't think GamerGate is a sexist movement. It is. End of story. It was created for that purpose.

You say you like being a gamer and want to defend being a gamer?

THEN STOP DEFENDING GAMERGATE.

By defending GamerGate as some cause that has outgrown its manbaby roots, you are only helping those same manchildren further obfuscate what should be a black and white issue. You are doing their disgusting dirty work for them. You are helping them, don't you see that? You are helping to tarnish the reputation of the thing you want to defend.

 

[Galactic Fork]

I see footage from games that are misrepresented sometimes and when this happens it frustrates me. I agree with the majority of her issues but sometimes I feel she misrepresents aspects of a game to deliver the point. as a gamer who has played many of these games, its frustrating.

Can I ask which ones? And how? I personally didn't see any misrepresentations, so I'm always curious when I hear that (I'm rarely in a position to get to respond the times I get an answer.) Feel free to PM or put it in the Tropes vs women thread since I'm not sure if this thread is the right place.

And I wanna apologize somewhat for my first post to you. I've been holding on to a few of your posts from earlier in the thread. They'd really bothered me and I guess it was just waiting to explode.

Also, I'm all for you displaying and showing all the threats and harassment you get. Get it out there. That behavior is unacceptable and people need to know about it.

 

[boogie2988]

Can I ask which ones? And how? I personally didn't see any misrepresentations, so I'm always curious when I hear that (I'm rarely in a position to get to respond the times I get an answer.) Feel free to PM or put it in the Tropes vs women thread since I'm not sure if this thread is the right place.

And I wanna apologize somewhat for my first post to you. I've been holding on to a few of your posts from earlier in the thread. They'd really bothered me and I guess it was just waiting to explode.

Also, I'm all for you displaying and showing all the threats and harassment you get. Get it out there. That behavior is unacceptable and people need to know about it.

I don't want to go re-watch anita's videos to find perfect examples so that'll wait for another time when I feel safer having that debate

No worries about your first post to me. I appreciate the sentinment and apology though. Tensions are high right now and this is part of this discussion. I can take it in stride, I hope.

I try to not share the harassment I get for the same reason i state in that 'breakdown' video I kept unlisted but is still making the rounds. I don't want to make villians out of idiots. I don't want to make assholes 'famous' or give them more power than they already have (which is almost zero)

 

[Vipershark]

We have the undeniable fact that Gamergate has not led to any positive change in the industry. It has led to a lot of negative, harmful, regressive stuff.

What negative, harmful, regressive stuff are you referring to, exactly?
Specifically which ones? Link to them.

TFYC ... was largely donating to charity specifically to spite Zoe Quinn.

Where? When? How do you know this?

This goes for Boogie as well. Give me one example of unambiguously positive change, or even positive arguments, aims, or reasoning, and I'll reconsider my stance that GG is composed entirely of some proportion of the misinformed and the bigoted.

You can't reply to "Can you give me proof?" with "No, YOU give ME proof" and continue to make unsubstantiated claims.
I know you weren't the person that the original post was aimed at but dodging the question with more questions or stuff like "see above" is not an answer.

 

[BobbyRobby]

Again. I'm a pro wrestling fan.

When somebody says, "ya' know, a lot of pro wrestling fans are assholes who are sexist toward women wrestlers, don't react well to people who aren't like them, and still have some issues with homophobia and react creepily to women involved in the industry," I don't go, "that's not me! I'm offended."

Ya' know why? Because I know many pro wrestling fans are creepy toward women wrestlers (less in recent years, thank Jebus), still yell horrible homophobic shit to wrestlers (again, less than in previous years), and still react way too positively toward violence against women by men, even when the men are supposed to be "bad guys."

I don't go on Twitter and yell at a woman wrestler who talks about being told to show her tits on an indy show that she's probably faking that entire incident or something along those lines.

You can be a gamer without defending the shitty attitudes and actions of other gamers just like I can be a pro wrestling fan without defending the shitty attitudes and actions of other pro wrestling fans.

People have different priorities. For some, being a gamer is their master status, the facet of their personality they value the most, or very much.

There are bad people in every group. Another person with different priorities might take offense to an article in the style of Alexander's that "feminists are over."

I think that people shouldn't let their group's identity define their individual personality. Humans are tribal though, so loyalties to groups will exist whether or not they are rational.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

What negative, harmful, regressive stuff are you referring to, exactly?
Specifically which ones? Link to them.

You're seriously not implying that you don't know anything about the highly publicized death threats and doxxing incidents?

 

[Vipershark]

You're seriously not implying that you don't know anything about the highly publicized death threats and doxxing incidents?

Which ones? Specifically, which?
Which highly publicized death threats did #GamerGate send?
Which highly publicized doxing did #GamerGate commit?

 

[Blyr]

Again. I'm a pro wrestling fan.

When somebody says, "ya' know, a lot of pro wrestling fans are assholes who are sexist toward women wrestlers, don't react well to people who aren't like them, and still have some issues with homophobia and react creepily to women involved in the industry," I don't go, "that's not me! I'm offended."

Ya' know why? Because I know many pro wrestling fans are creepy toward women wrestlers (less in recent years, thank Jebus), still yell horrible homophobic shit to wrestlers (again, less than in previous years), and still react way too positively toward violence against women by men, even when the men are supposed to be "bad guys."

I don't go on Twitter and yell at a woman wrestler who talks about being told to show her tits on an indy show that she's probably faking that entire incident or something along those lines.

You can be a gamer without defending the shitty attitudes and actions of other gamers just like I can be a pro wrestling fan without defending the shitty attitudes and actions of other pro wrestling fans.

Oh man that stuff was so gross too. :/

It's not so much defending the attitudes and actions, as it is looking at the people on both sides, and seeing your own reflection.

I sincerely believe he's only defending the people who (like myself) took up arms because we felt something we believed in was attacked, and now we (and through our reflection, himself) are being unfairly labeled as misogynists, etc. I don't think he's defending the actions of the jerks doing really gross stuff.

I certainly didn't participate in any of the shouting or behaving like a jerk, I was mostly just spreading love on twitter to other people who felt scorned. At the time of my joining, it was mostly a widespread boycott of any of the offending gaming sites, before things got so incredibly politicized.

I understand what you're saying, though, and I agree completely. Gamers, and the industry as a whole really needs some massive changes; I will never defend anyone who harasses anyone else, and a lot of what's been going on (since the start, really, but I wasn't aware of that immediately) is pretty gross.

I just don't believe that everyone under the #GG banner wants women out of videogames, and wants videogames to stay the same. I think that's why you'll see a lot of #GG supporters get defensive, because they don't feel that way; they're just misguided. If they start participating actively in harassment though? Yeah that's gross and there's no excuse for that.

There are definitely a lot of bad eggs in the #GG group, there's no denying that. There are possibly more bad than good.. but the good ones are the ones we're trying to protect.

As I stated before though, a lot of people are starting to "wake up" as I did, and we're starting to realize that yeah maybe #GG isn't what we thought it was when we signed up.

 

[bootski]

You're seriously not implying that you don't know anything about the highly publicized death threats and doxxing incidents?

to be fair, none of those things, as far as i know fell under the gamergate umbrella. in fact, i'd go as far as saying most of the gamergate tweets i saw following those events decried that type of action.

 

[SwissLion]

I know you weren't the person that the original post was aimed at but dodging the question with more questions or stuff like "see above" is not an answer.

My proof that it's an awful movement are its origins and continued actions.

People seem to want to ignore these though, as is evidenced by the fact that this 200+ page thread filled to the brim with people's lives being destroyed, and spurious ignorant claims of journalistic corruption is being completely ignored every time someone wants to jump in and say "Hey stop generalising Gamergate!"

It has misogynistic origins, and its continued actions have either been anti-inclusion, anti-women, anti-social criticism, anti-intellectual, anti-feminism, or any number of combinations. That's my evidence for classifying it a certain way. My point of asking them for evidence of any positive outcomes of the movement is me asking him to defend his 'It's not all bad" thesis in the face of a near complete lack of evidence to support it.

Even if we were to put aside the lives that have been severely impacted by those hiding behind this sham of a movement (we are not going to do this) I still consider a propensity to take action, or join a mob, out of ignorance, a negative trait, so I feel pretty good labelling almost the entirety of Gamergate not good.

Edit: Buuuut, given your posts in the interim it's obvious you're here to be pedantic and contrarian, despite a whole thread full of the evidence you're asking for. It's not our job to read through our posts and pick out things to cure your ignorance.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Which ones? Specifically, which?
Which highly publicized death threats did #GamerGate send?
Which highly publicized doxing did #GamerGate commit?

None, because a hash tag can't se--

OH WAIT, YOU'VE CRACKED THE CASE

 

[Devolution]

If you're trying to create a legitimate movement for transparency in the industry after revenge porn and threats/doxxing/harassment of various people, mainly women, in said industry were flown under the same banner, you might want to rethink your strategy a bit.

 

[Opinionatedfish]

Maybe I'm just behind the times on this.. but.. from the start, wasn't the entire hashtag just a reference to the allegations of sexual impropriety for editorial content leveled against one particular person and one or two (out of five) other people? Just an uncreative way to name a scandal or internet conspiracy. Similar to "WhiteWaterGate" for the real estate dealings of Hillary and Bill Clinton or "BenghaziGate" for the allegation of misconduct in regards to the fatal attack on a diplomat (and Eve Online player) inside of what was supposed to be a safe house?

However, it was stated by someone with a lot of Twitter followers and a large amplification of resources. This person attached himself to the original allegations of scandal as a way of demonstrating that certain kinds of activists were just "hypocrites" in a move to discredit a particular movement.

The removal of discussion of the initial allegations of scandal from publicly viewable, but privately owned, forums and a DMCA take down request from one of the people addressed in the initial scandal added the illusion of fire where there was only hypothetical smoke. This caused the discussion to attract that large amplifying factor which led to a broad discussion about "gaming journalism ethics."

This led to back and forth threats and accusations in which the hash tag was used as a way of amplifying visibility. Using hashtags amplifies the chance that someone will see what is written, regardless of if it is related to a topic or not. People then started using the hashtag as a way to further two different narratives. The first narrative is that everyone who loves video games is under vicious attack from people who want to burn your copy of Super Mario Bros. 3 in a pile outside city hall and the second narrative is that everyone who loves video games is attacking women, minorities, and baskets of kittens. That is absurd.

You see, the part that people can't get past in "GamerGate" is the use of the word GAMER inside of it. A lot of people are (to quote Satoru Iwata) "In My Heart. I am a Gamer." people. They enjoy playing video games and other kinds of games and see the accusation that "gamer" is something awful as a personal attack. What people forget is that the hashtag doesn't end at "gamer" and has "gate" attached to it. The "gate" part of this is in reference to the initial scandal and the push to discredit people who have different opinions on different things. If you are proud of being a video game player, a gamer, than you should note that the "gate" part of this is about discrediting people and furthering an agenda that you may not agree with.

There is no precedent to put down your fiddle and pick up a rifle. Rome isn't burning down and the people who are telling you that it is.. might just want to use you as a number for a narrative you might not agree with. Think of this as what it is: #AttentionGate

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Which ones? Specifically, which?
Which highly publicized death threats did #GamerGate send?
Which highly publicized doxing did #GamerGate commit?

GamerGate is not an organization. It is not a company.

It's just a bunch of people.

If your requirement is a hashtag for every shitty thing that anyone has ever done, then of course you're going to be able to claim plausible deniability.

You're just a rabid dog, barking at anyone that mentions that, since the start of this, multiple people have been doxxed and driven from their homes in the name of "opinions".

 

[boogie2988]

Before I exit this thread and while this video is compiling I once again want to state how I genuinely feel about this stuff as I tend to continue to be a topic of discussion.

I love gaming. I love games. I love gamers. I've always loved these things since I was a little kid. The entire time I've been a gamer though I've had to defend my love of the hobby (and now of course, my career).

I care about the industry. I care about consumer rights. I care about journalistic integrity. I care about treating customers fairly and the way that they deserve.

I care about women. I was raised by a woman who was crazy and abusive, but also a strong and devout feminist. She took care of her invalid husband and raised me. She taught me that a woman was just as good as a man and deserved to be treated equally. I've never lost sight of that and hopefully never will.

I spend every day trying to teach gamers to treat each other nicely. I spend every day trying to create an inclusive gaming community, an inclusive youtube channel, and encourage the folks who watch to be inclusive as well. I try to bring out the awesome in everyone and ask them nicely to overcome their bad sides.

In gamergate I have done all of these things. I have asked for integrity in the industry. I have supported women. I have defended gamers. I have been harassed, and doxxed, and threatened, and even seen some of those threats made good.

But I also endure. My entire life I have fought for these things. I will fight for them now and I will use the #gamergate hashtag to communicate with those who will listen who also use this hashtag. I will ask them to ask for integrity. I will ask them to be kind. I will ask them to support women. I will ask them to be awesome and to overcome their bad sides.

I will also be inexplicably condemned for this and that's ok. I'm really getting used to that sort of thing.

I still do not plan to change that message and I still do not believe that simply using that hashtag and fighting for these things makes me or my message worthless.

I will continue to deliver it any way that I can until no one else cares to listen. I do this out of love for the hobby and for the love of my fellow human.

Say what you will about me, and condemn my mistakes. But please always know I do what I do out of love.

 

[bootski]

GamerGate is not an organization. It is not a company.

It's just a bunch of people.

If your requirement is a hashtag for every shitty thing that anyone has ever done, then of course you're going to be able to claim plausible deniability.

You're just a rabid dog, barking at anyone that mentions that, since the start of this, multiple people have been doxxed and driven from their homes in the name of "opinions".

well gamergate is a hashtag. and most of what you're saying has been done by "gamergate" hasn't been done under that hashtag. so unless you're just lumping every shitty action done by people under the hashtag, the implication that #gamergate has been doxxing or threatening individuals is almost certainly false.

 

[RubberJohnny]

I read some of those tweets and the "corruption" gamergaters are responding to is literally that websites said things they don't like. No payoffs or criminality alleged, just "they said mean words."

They're screaming that all these "SJWs" are "censoring" games by criticizing their content but they to my knowledge have never alleged that making content they disagree with is criminal, nor did these "SJWs" ever attempt to organize a large boycott, unlike the various Gamergate site and dev boycotts.

 

[Devolution]

I read some of those tweets and the "corruption" gamergaters are responding to is literally that websites said things they don't like. No payoffs or criminality alleged, just "they said mean words."

They're screaming that all these "SJWs" are "censoring" games by criticizing their content but they to my knowledge have never alleged that making content they disagree with is criminal, nor did these "SJWs" ever attempt to organize a large boycott, unlike the various Gamergate site and dev boycotts.

Most SJWs are like "this is kind of problematic, a bit objectifying or disparaging to minorities, can you do better next time please?" That's about it. And yet there is always a huge stink about it.

 

[illage4]

Before I exit this thread and while this video is compiling I once again want to state how I genuinely feel about this stuff as I tend to continue to be a topic of discussion.

I love gaming. I love games. I love gamers. I've always loved these things since I was a little kid. The entire time I've been a gamer though I've had to defend my love of the hobby (and now of course, my career).

I care about the industry. I care about consumer rights. I care about journalistic integrity. I care about treating customers fairly and the way that they deserve.

I care about women. I was raised by a woman who was crazy and abusive, but also a strong and devout feminist. She took care of her invalid husband and raised me. She taught me that a woman was just as good as a man and deserved to be treated equally. I've never lost sight of that and hopefully never will.

I spend every day trying to teach gamers to treat each other nicely. I spend every day trying to create an inclusive gaming community, an inclusive youtube channel, and encourage the folks who watch to be inclusive as well. I try to bring out the awesome in everyone and ask them nicely to overcome their bad sides.

In gamergate I have done all of these things. I have asked for integrity in the industry. I have supported women. I have defended gamers. I have been harassed, and doxxed, and threatened, and even seen some of those threats made good.

But I also endure. My entire life I have fought for these things. I will fight for them now and I will use the #gamergate hashtag to communicate with those who will listen who also use this hashtag. I will ask them to ask for integrity. I will ask them to be kind. I will ask them to support women. I will ask them to be awesome and to overcome their bad sides.

I will also be inexplicably condemned for this and that's ok. I'm really getting used to that sort of thing.

I still do not plan to change that message and I still do not believe that simply using that hashtag and fighting for these things makes me or my message worthless.

I will continue to deliver it any way that I can until no one else cares to listen. I do this out of love for the hobby and for the love of my fellow human.

Say what you will about me, and condemn my mistakes. But please always know I do what I do out of love.

Thank you and I'm with you on this.

 

[benjipwns]

well gamergate is a hashtag. and most of what you're saying has been done by "gamergate" hasn't been done under that hashtag. so unless you're just lumping every shitty action done by people under the hashtag, the implication that #gamergate has been doxxing or threatening individuals is almost certainly false.

This goes back and forth on personifying a hashtag like five times in one post.

 

[Corpekata]

to be fair, none of those things, as far as i know fell under the gamergate umbrella. in fact, i'd go as far as saying most of the gamergate tweets i saw following those events decried that type of action.

Decrying it while in the same breath subscribing largely to the idea that the harrassment and threats are fake or for attention. Here's a MundaneMatt video uploaded with hours of Wu's threats and doxxing about a conspiracy that it was made up with 10k views. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2nCM4c9PpY&list=UUxXUQuvoiIAlpM2osoAitjQ

A lot of other prominent GGers say the same thing every time this comes up, with thousands of views, likes, retweets, etc. They may say the crazy person is awful but they'll also endorse this mindset that it isn't real anyway and belittle the events.

 

[voodoopanda]

Feels like gamergate has been jumping from one "corrupt" thing to the next, as each one falls away because there isn't any corruption found. Now the target they're fighting is all the articles about the harassment that has come about since gamergate. It's interesting to watch if you take a step back, you see so many people on twitter now swarming all over anyone who mentions gamergate in a bad light, demanding evidence and denying all charges. They insult & call people liars for claiming gamergate has anything to do with any harassment whatsoever. It seems like the main purpose of gamergate now is to go in and minimize, downplay and deny harassment as it happens. It's weird to see the patterns, so many people saying the same things. Feels a lot like the concept of "gaslighting."

 

[Vipershark]

My proof that it's an awful movement are its origins and continued actions.

In other words, your answer is that you don't actually have proof. Got it.

If you have some actual evidence beyond the fact that you don't like GamerGate, I'd be happy to look at it.
If you can show me where GamerGate is actively doxing people or actively anti-women, I'd join you in decrying them. I'm just as much against that stuff as you are.

None, because a hash tag can't se--

OH WAIT, YOU'VE CRACKED THE CASE

Except that's not what my point was.
If all you can do in response to actual questions is offer up flippant remarks rather than actually say anything of value, you're not worth my time.

GamerGate is not an organization. It is not a company.

It's just a bunch of people.

If your requirement is a hashtag for every shitty thing that anyone has ever done, then of course you're going to be able to claim plausible deniability.

You're just a rabid dog, barking at anyone that mentions that, since the start of this, multiple people have been doxxed and driven from their homes in the name of "opinions".

I'm very aware that GamerGate is not an organization.
My question remains though: Who? I'm talking in singular terms here, which person specifically, from GamerGate, did this doxing? Which person from GamerGate issued these threats? Where is your evidence that these things were caused by people from GamerGate?

I'm not asking you to prove that "GamerGate did it", I'm asking you to to show me your evidence that the people who have done these things are a part of GamerGate.
When were these threats ever done under the hashtag? Where is the connection between crazies making threats and GG outside of the fact that you don't like GG so therefore GG did it?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

well gamergate is a hashtag. and most of what you're saying has been done by "gamergate" hasn't been done under that hashtag. so unless you're just lumping every shitty action done by people under the hashtag, the implication that #gamergate has been doxxing or threatening individuals is almost certainly false.

"GamerGate" didn't even have the name until Adam Baldwin tweeted it under the pretense of the initial Quinn bullshit.

So two things can be gleaned here:

1) Yes, Quinn's doxing and harassment was done under the "GamerGate" banner
2) GamerGate is a meaningless buzz word used as just that: a buzz word

 

[madmackem]

Ive been watching from the outside from the start of this, im amazed at the directions this has gone in, im amazed at the sort of people that got involved in it.

Is it too much to ask for people to treat each other with just a smidge of respect?, is it too much to ask for some of those in the games media to respect a large percentage of there readership who just want unbiased real journalism?. You get the feeling some in the games media look down on the audience they make their living off.

Everyone needs to back down take a breathe and chill,

 

[GamerJM]

Boogie, I seriously, seriously hope you get better and seek help.

Also, on the subject of the Polygon Bayonetta 2 review, I really hope that this starts a dialogue between people who agree with the review and people who don't, in relation to sexism in gaming and whether or not Bayonetta 2 specifically is sexist/objectifying. Because I don't really think this is a black and white issue with this specific game, since there's a valid argument to be made for Bayonetta basically being the equivalent of a sex positive feminist stripper and there's also a valid argument to be made for the game implicitly treating her like a sexual object through the way the camera interacts with her body and the way the game's mechanics work. Of course, this probably isn't going to happen for the most part, and GamerGate is probably going to use this as another chance to proclaim that this is an example of games media being "social justice warrior shills," or some nonsense. *sigh*

 

[Blyr]

But as it has been stated many, many, many times: it simply does not matter that you individually don't think GamerGate is a sexist movement. It is. End of story. It was created for that purpose.

You say you like being a gamer and want to defend being a gamer?

THEN STOP DEFENDING GAMERGATE.

By defending GamerGate as some cause that has outgrown its manbaby roots, you are only helping those same manchildren further obfuscate what should be a black and white issue. You are doing their disgusting dirty work for them. You are helping them, don't you see that? You are helping to tarnish the reputation of the thing you want to defend.

I suppose I'm just too close to it.

When you say GamerGate, I don't think of it as an individual entity, I think of it as the people I know personally, who are/were standing for something they believe in.

I've already started distancing myself from #GG though, because things have gotten really gross and muddy on both sides of it, & a lot of people I know are coming to the same conclusion.

Maybe it's always been this way, and we just couldn't see the forest for the trees.

 

[Corpekata]

Just backread the thread and man Boogie, I think you take criticism a bit too much to heart. I disagree with your stances on this but I don't see many people in this thread that think you're a worthless monster like you seem to think.

I don't think you should disengage, do as you see fit obviously, but I do think your reading of people taking issue with you is way too harsh, and you should come back to them with a clearer head, because nothing in this thread warranted that "just kill me" talk.

 

[Vipershark]

I'm not sure if you all have seen this, but it's something that I've found rather interesting.

http://topsy.com/analytics?q1=#game... -"leighalexander" -@leighalexander&via=Topsy

This isn't hard proof of anything of course and obviously it doesn't account for things out of context so it's more of a ballpark than hard data, but it does show something that's quite telling:
In the above link is all uses of the GG hashtag over the past month compared to a search of those same results, removing keywords such as "zoe quinn", "anita sarkeesian", "sjw", and other words. The resulting (Blue) number is the amount of GG tweets that have nothing whatsoever to do with these particular hot-button topics.

These awful things that you guys are referring to represent LESS THAN TEN PERCENT of GG as a whole. Honestly, how can you call GG as a whole bad when only eight percent of the tweets in it are involved with the hot-button topics in question?