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[Messofanego]

Ok, so here's a few people involved in Gamergate that did shitty things:

FartOfWar - is a genuinely creepy stalker dude with an obsession about a Youtube girl, to the point where she had to get a restraining order or some shit, gamergate personality, hosted a bunch of discussions for them on his channel.

Hold up, FartOfWar as in Shawn Elliott (former GFW, Irrational level designer, GAFer)?

Or some other completely random FartOfWar that I've never heard about?

 

[RubberJohnny]

Hold up, FartOfWar as in Shawn Elliott (former GFW, Irrational level designer, GAFer)?

Or some other completely random FartOfWar that I've never heard about?

Oh whoops, I meant this guy PressFartToContinue. Clearly mixed it up as they both have fart in them, sorry Shawn, love you!

Will go back and edit it so people don't get the wrong idea.

 

[Corpekata]

Hold up, FartOfWar as in Shawn Elliott (former GFW, Irrational level designer, GAFer)?

Or some other completely random FartOfWar that I've never heard about?

Misnnamed him I think. He means PressFartToContinue. One of the more vocal "Everything is a conspiracy" members. The creepy stalker thing is in regards to the youtuber Dodger.

 

[Zen]

I call trying to point out that the claims lacked any evidence trying to get the truth out there, but it couldn't be heard over the people railing against posting something in the wrong forum as "censorship" and championing something that supported their pre-existing views (gaming media is corrupt!)

I think acknowledging that you were in the wrong here and got caught up in something you didn't look into would require admitting a lack of critical thinking on your part, so you're attacking the situation as being "mishandled" to avoid recognizing it.

Which is why it needed to be moderated strictly, with a well updated OP that, in very clear language, dispelled un-truths, took proper account of things, and set the tone for any discourse.

I am not in the wrong, nor have I been caught up in something I didn't look into. I have been very consistent in my messaging and desire for open and clear communication.

Here are my first two posts on the subject, keep in mind this thread was after threads were being insta locked with little explanation and when it still seemed like there was some smoking gun from TheZoePost (which I have actually read at this point).

The discussion is and should be about nepotism, or the potential of systemic corruption. This should be a games journalist issue/story. The fact that the story comes out through the instance of a female indie developer alleged sleeping for favors is just how the story exists, not the point of it. The allegations should be challenged, examined, and the truth should be exposed. If 'shit has been disproved' (or proved) ages ago, let's get the up to date story to better make judgement calls on potential corruption/abuse of power to aid cover up/whatever.

There is a legitimate story here, one that should be moderated strictly, not shut down at every turn.

But to be fair, there are threads all the time when some guy developer makes an ass out of himself (so much so with Cliffy B that his tweets are now banned) why auto close topics that allegedly paint a female game dev in a bad light (again with strict moderation because a lot of dumbass sexists will use it to grind an axe and that is beside the point).

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=126239531&postcount=891

But this never happened.

I've been reading through the thread, but haven't stumbled on it yet, link?

The fact it turns out 4/5 peeps she was accused of sleeping with weren't game journalists and the one that was, didn't review her games and wrote of her in passing in two articles about other things.

Sort of makes the whole 'controversy' even more banal.

I almost feel that for lightning rod issues (or non issues as they may be) there needs to be a comprehensive and easy to read OP that takes account of the situation to properly set the tone of the discourse. I mean I watched some video on the subject, and read like two of the threads on it prior before they were insta closed, but is this is news to me. This is why the topic should stay open to allow for clear communication and an evolution of the dialogue.

Link?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=126239798&postcount=905

So yeah, if anything my drive for clarity, being forthright in my desire to be educated and have an ease of education to minimize damage was there from the start.

And if you want the unfiltered truth, I thought this mass banning/locking/deleting business was bone headed as soon as I saw it happening.

 

[RubberJohnny]

Which is why it needed to be moderated strictly, with a well updated OP that, in very clear language, dispelled un-truths, took proper account of things, and set the tone for any discourse.

Well how exactly am I to blame? I can't alter the OP of a thread that says (OMG THEY DELETED THE TRHEAD I POST IN WRONG PLACE CENSOR!!!!11!!), I don't have mod tools.

You seem to be blaming other people who were trying to spread the truth that there was no evidence for any of the allegations, rather than the doombrains who were too stupid to realise the "5 Guys" video said nothing about four of the guys!

You got sucked in because it backed up what you already believed - you wanted evidence to fit your conclusion, not the other way around.

 

[Intheflorsh]

Jim Sterling just called out his employers (The Escapist) on twitter.

It sucks that twitter is pretty much unusable for a lot of people in game media right now.

 

[Zen]

A lot of ex's are awful. There are more positive ways to nurture yourself after a breakup. Now he's got a restraining/gag order for being "that guy." :\

I kind if torn, because I agree with you but I also feel that abuse victims should have the ability to come forward about their abuse even to the point of 'outing' their abuser. There have been a decent amount of people coming forward corroborating his account of her, like the photographer that worked with her, I don't mean that in a 'she's a ->insert gender specific insult here<-' sort of way, I mean that in a 'she is a self admitted pathological liar who might need professional help' kind of way.

And I'm saying that as someone who enjoyed Depression Quest and is emotionally practically a misandrist at times.

Was he right/wrong all hinges on what the truth actually is.

Well how exactly am I to blame? I can't alter the OP of a thread that says (OMG THEY DELETED THE TRHEAD I POST IN WRONG PLACE CENSOR!!!!11!!), I don't have mod tools.

You seem to be blaming other people who were trying to spread the truth that there was no evidence for any of the allegations, rather than the doombrains who were too stupid to realise the "5 Guys" video said nothing about four of the guys!

You got sucked in because it backed up what you already believed - you wanted evidence to fit your conclusion, not the other way around.

I didn't get suckered into anything. Information was so poorly available at that point that I had not even learned about the real scope of the allegations, hence me constantly asking for information.

And here's the thing, you can't blame the masses for containing people who will ruin things for everyone, you can take a look at the gatekeepers of discourse and say 'you can do better'. I am not blaming other people 'who were trying to spread the truth' there was a vacuum of trying the spread the truth. It was in fact the opposite, the people who were in the best position to spread the truth left a vacuum and terrible implications in their wake for far too long.

 

[SmZA]

Won't someone please THINK OF THE GAMERGATES

They are being unfairly targeted in all this. Their intrinsic gamergate identity was hijacked by bad people of the internet in order to harass innocent females.

Gamergates love and respect females. Some of them are themselves female! But they have had to watch helplessly as people pretending to be gamergates drove first one, then more females out of their homes. Nothing can describe the horror these gamergates feel at this, yet their agony is compounded by clueless media or online commenters who indiscriminately lump them together with their oppressors.

That's awful! What can I do to help?
First, educate yourself on what a gamergate is, and how to tell if a gamergate is genuine. All gamergates are born with a telltale mark, or hashtag, which they use to form bonds and communicate with each other. If you see someone doing something nasty on the internet but they do not bear this mark, do not blame the gamergates! It is probably just someone who is being grumpy, because they are on the internet and the internet makes you grumpy.

If you do see the mark, it is a little trickier. You will have to carefully read the words that are being written and judge them in their proper context. Is the purported gamergate responding to someone else who said something nasty about gamergates? If so, cut them a little slack as they are dealing with a whole lot right now! But if they're saying bad things about a female, it's likely this isn't a gamergate at all, but instead a BAD INTERNET PERSON. Bad internet people like to cause trouble for gamergates and also for females and by pretending to be gamergates they can cause all the trouble they like! Unfortunately it is trivially easy for bad internet people to do this, so be vigilant.

Can anything be done about these bad internet people?
The most important thing you can do is educate others about gamergates, and call out any instances where you suspect a bad internet person is pretending to be one. Above all, be calm and patient.

For instance, someone says that gamergates are misogynists (that's people who hate females). Don't lose your cool! Educate them on the gamergate hashtag, and that anyone saying bad things about females is no true gamergate but instead a bad internet person. If they persist, be firm! Ask for evidence! Where are the telltale hashtags? Which supposed gamergate said the bad thing, and where, and when? If they don't provide evidence, you have exposed their lies! But if they do, it's even better as with the information we've given you you'll be able to expose the bad internet person's deceptions.

It's outrageous that I haven't heard of this!
Sadly, gamergates are heavily discriminated against and misunderstood, and this is especially evident in the mainstream media. Journalists will not investigate the realities of the situation when they can more easily write sensationalist headlines demonising gamergates.

There are a few allies out there - a real life Hollywood actor, a journalist from the prestigious Breitbart organisation, even a female person who calls herself a feminist! The latter is especially good news as it is well known that when you have a feminist-identifying female on your side it is impossible to say or do anything bad to other female people.

But gamergates have one more ally who's even more important - you! Yes, by lending your support and educating others you will help achieve a future where all people on all sides of this mess will join together in condemnation of the bad internet people, whoever they are, and all females will be at peace again knowing the gamergates love them. We can do this. Together.

 

[zeldablue]

Yeah...I think a more accurate view would be that the journalists' social/worldviews were different then people were used to. And then as the views became more hip and happening, more and more of the readership felt alienated. And then they needed to find a reason why the views of the journalists were so different. The Zoe thing was a opening into channeling this feeling of alienation.

It's just San Fran guys. They're young and hip and stuff. =/

I kind if torn, because I agree with you but I also feel that abuse victims should have the ability to come forward about their abuse even to the point of 'outing' their abuser. There have been a decent amount of people coming forward corroborating his account of her, like the photographer that worked with her, I don't mean that in a 'she's a ->insert gender specific insult here<-' sort of way, I mean that in a 'she is a self admitted pathological liar who needs professional help and shows a very clear pattern of manipulation and abuse' kind of way.

And I'm saying that as someone who enjoyed Depression Quest and is emotionally practically a misandrist.

Was he right/wrong all hinges on what the truth actually is.

I mean...I have a friend was was raped and beaten repeatedly over the course of years by her boyfriend and she never bothered to tell a soul. She doesn't want to out anyone. This isn't the way to go about abuse. But neither is heading to the web to sabotage someone. Just be an adult, get all the evidence (recordings, texts etc) and use that in court. And above all of that. Get real life people to help you get back on your feet.

Don't do what Eron did. And while we're at it, don't hire a hitman either. Or plan out a murder with some friends. I think Eron succeeded in what he wanted to do. A lot of people want Zoe dead and raped and they will never stop hating her for as long as she lives. So in a lot of ways, Eron got exactly what he wanted. :\ Also, people with depression are extremely hard to be around, so he should be happy he stuck around as long as he did.

 

[RubberJohnny]

Was he right/wrong all hinges on what the truth actually is.

I think even if all of that were true he would still be spectacularly in the wrong - creating an internet harrassment mob to attacks someone for several months so they have to leave their home, posting nude pictures of them, and wishing that it'd drive them into mental illness IS NEVER OK.

Even if all of that were true, it'd also have FUCK ALL TO DO WITH GAMING.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And if games media had the maturity to have simply made articles reporting on the harassment and denouncing it, instead of having inflammatory headlines, things wouldn't have blown up how they did.

So your line of thought is: gaming media should give a platform to these people to stop the harassment. You know how illogical that sounds right?

And like other people have said, plenty of sites have covered the harassment already. Look it up.

Why didn't they cover it at the start? Because it was not news. It was not about games. It was about some relationship stuff that happens to include a game developer. That is not the type of news gaming websites cover, neither should they.

 

[axisofweevils]

Seems Jim Sterling is taking a break from Twitter due to this mess.

https://twitter.com/JimSterling/

FYI I won't be very interactive on twitter for a while. GG showed its hand when I unequivocally wouldn't side with it so it's a shitshow now

Also, John Walker of RPS wrote a blog about his experiences. http://botherer.org/2014/10/12/a-thing-about-gamergate/

I have received abundant and appalling abuse from GG, that has been at times upsetting, infuriating, and frightening. I’ve received thousands of tweets that have been insulting, offensive, outrageously inaccurate, spiteful, cruel, or disturbing. Not one or two. Thousands. I’ve had boring, tiresome insults thrown at me in droves, and specific, distressing descriptions of how people would like me to be killed. I’ve been told so many times how people would like to see my business (Rock, Paper, Shotgun) destroyed, to see me bankrupted. And I have repeatedly been informed of the ways in which I should commit suicide. This has been in response to my stating how upset I have been by the treatment of women in the industry who have received rape and death threats, making snide remarks or jokes, or indeed simply because I’m an owner of and writer for RPS. I’ve had genuinely deranged MS Paint images made that purport to discredit my integrity/honesty, I’ve had videos watched by over a million people stating bemusing lies about me. My business has been the target of carefully coordinated (and wholly unsuccessful) attempts to reduce our advertising revenue, based on an imagined article we’ve never published, and targeted by GG to be boycotted because of our having once linked to articles not liked by the movement, despite our writing a lengthy piece explaining why we disagreed with said articles. No matter how at fault one might believe me to be, GamerGate has been, toward me, horrendous.

 

[boogie2988]

Seeing this thing with Jim is frustrating. Jim has always been very pro consumer and pro gaming. he's also been someone who takes social issues into consideration at all turns. He too has tried to be a voice of moderation and people on both sides, albeit mostly on the GG side, have not stood for it.

I wrote him tonight and reached out to him and even though our views differ on gamergate, I hope that we'll always be friends. I adore him even more to see him standing up for what he believes in. Awesome dude.

And since it will be implied otherwise, no I do not condone the actions of the few who harass Jim for his opinions.... Nor do I wish to entirely abandon a hashtag because of them.

 

[Jim Sterling]

Seeing this thing with Jim is frustrating. Jim has always been very pro consumer and pro gaming. he's also been someone who takes social issues into consideration at all turns. He too has tried to be a voice of moderation and people on both sides, albeit mostly on the GG side, have not stood for it.

I wrote him tonight and reached out to him and even though our views differ on gamergate, I hope that we'll always be friends. I adore him even more to see him standing up for what he believes in. Awesome dude.

And since it will be implied otherwise, no I do not condone the actions of the few who harass Jim for his opinions.... Nor do I wish to entirely abandon a hashtag because of them.

Boogie, you and I are friends. I wish you wouldn't give credit to a movement that has, in my personal experience, achieved nothing except the distress of my respected peers, and caused me to hate what I do for a living, but I know you're a good dude and I know you don't condone the bullshit, so for all my wishes, I don't hold it against you.

Hell, I still don't hold anything against those who, for all their decisions, really did just care about a better standard of games media. But there are too many assholes for me to be nice about this anymore. I tried being reasonable and polite, and from Friday onwards, prominent GGers decided I needed to pay a price for it.

At any rate, I still wish you all the best. You know that.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Seems Jim Sterling is taking a break from Twitter due to this mess.

https://twitter.com/JimSterling/



Also, John Walker of RPS wrote a blog about his experiences. http://botherer.org/2014/10/12/a-thing-about-gamergate/

Thanks GG. Truly you are what videogames always needed.

Videogames are about making people miserable, right?

 

[boogie2988]

Boogie, you and I are friends. I wish you wouldn't give credit to a movement that has, in my personal experience, achieved nothing except the distress of my respected peers, and caused me to hate what I do for a living, but I know you're a good dude and I know you don't condone the bullshit, so for all my wishes, I don't hold it against you.

Hell, I still don't hold anything against those who, for all their decisions, really did just care about a better standard of games media. But there are too many assholes for me to be nice about this anymore. I tried being reasonable and polite, and from Friday onwards, prominent GGers decided I needed to pay a price for it.

At any rate, I still wish you all the best. You know that.

Of course jim! I see absolutely nothing wrong with you attacking the downsides of gamergate and I will stand with you as you do. Lord knows I've tweeted many a condemnation of the actions of some of them. I do hope that you'll consider not everyone involved does that kind of thing though. If you draw that line in the sand, you lose the moderates who could be swayed and cause them to become zealots instead. I beg you to address the FEW and not the WHOLE.

Be awesome my friend. I know that you will be.

 

[theSlacker]

The only information we have about the Phil Fish thing is his, and a bunch of other people who actually know about the situation, telling that guy what he was doing was shitty. And guess what? Introducing more unconfirmable information that is inevitably going to lead to the ongoing abuse of someone getting noticeably worse is a shitty thing to do. We don't know anything about that situation and it's none of our business. Phil Fish called a guy out for adding fuel to the fire of a harassment campaign. That's not game news.

And TFYC? Here is I imagine the story you have in your head about what happened to them. . Why have people dismissed it? Because large portions of it are outright, since admitted lies. Lies he posted in a Reddit Thread that has since been deleted for promoting the harassment against Quinn. Stuff has since come out about the fact that the whole operation has a lot of shady elements, but even ignoring that for a second, again, adding fuel to the fire by provably, intentionally lying about a target of harassment is a fucking shitty thing to do, and he's a shitty person for doing it.

They weren't blacklisted, weren't DDoSd, arguably not doxxed (public facebook page linked). And yet they happily helped a harassment campaign along and have since profited immensely from it.

Things have shifted in my brain a little. This is now the worst reason I've heard for someone to have joined Gamergate.

Coming out ageist sexual harassment is just "Introducing more unconformable information" to you? They were straight up bulling him, which is unacceptable. The fact that you are able to just shift the blame and create your own narrative reminds me of why I stopped commenting on any of this. Accusations of sexual harassment should never be taken lightly, and disregarding or bullying the accuser is terrible.

Both of those events popped up on like day one, before sites were even accepting discussion about the situation. Now they can easily just be glassed over as part of an ongoing harassment/hate campaign. The article you linked proves nothing and says even less. It's an indie thing as to why it got no coverage when it actually happened? Really? I'm willing to believe that they have benefited from the extra coverage this entire event has given them. I'm also willing to believe that they are complete liers about the situation. What I don't like is that their story never got any coverage at all to find that stuff out. Not back when it happened pre "gamergate" or whatever, and not now. I don't accept "oh its probably just because it is some indie thing" as to why that is the case. I can see why no one would touch it now though since any perceived support will just be called supporting a harassment campaign. The entire event has tainted any kind of conversation that could be had, and again, why I wish this thread would stop popping back up. I just don't know how in the future it can be any different. There will always be terrible terrible people that will say and do disgusting things over the internet. Is their existence always going to be reason enough to kill any conversation about a subject?

Also please. Even if I was being completely disingenuous, there are people that's only purpose to be behind gamergate has been hate and misogyny. But nope, wondering why there wasn't any coverage, positive or negative, of 2 events is the worst reason to have not just outright hated the movement when it started. If you want to respond to me further, please PM, as I am going to try to ignore this thread again.

Edit: I guess I should also mention that no, I do not still support gamergate or any movement. Don't even have a twitter account so never could in the first place, even if I supported what I thought it was about originally.

 

[Zen]

So your line of thought is: gaming media should give a platform to these people to stop the harassment. You know how illogical that sounds right?

Not 'these people' at that time Gamergate was barely a thing. The articles needed to report and condemn the harassment, and explain how the claims were without merit (specifically, not just in passing); not make attack pieces against 'gamers' (perceived or otherwise). That was like fighting a fire by filling the hose with Gasoline where as they could have tried to nip things in the bud.

Why didn't they cover it at the start? Because it was not news. It was not about games. It was about some relationship stuff that happens to include a game developer. That is not the type of news gaming websites cover, neither should they.

In the same way it's news when Phil said something stupid. Even if you are right to say 'well it's not game news' it was still out there, going to be discussed, and my argument would be that mishandling it caused more harm than good, I don't think that is up for debate at this point.

I think even if all of that were true he would still be spectacularly in the wrong - creating an internet harrassment mob to attacks someone for several months so they have to leave their home, posting nude pictures of them, and wishing that it'd drive them into mental illness IS NEVER OK..

Unless you believe that he is lying about everything even throughout those logs in TheZoePost, he pretty clearly never wanted any of these things to happen. I mean we're talking about the same guy that also set a date to debate IA on the merits of Social Justice because he apparently believes in that stuff.

But I agree with the spirit of your argument 110%, I just don't think that was his intention.

 

[zeldablue]

Thanks GG. Truly you are what videogames always needed.

Videogames are about making people miserable, right?

...Yeah. GG is doing wonders for game developers and journalists around the world. It's really making them love what the gaming culture has to offer. :C

My heart goes out to everyone who is affected by this. I really can't imagine being caught up in the crossfire. The worst part is that this isn't even about games. Games are just being used as a battleground for how we should deal with another cooties outbreak.

 

[boogie2988]

After thinking about whats happening to jim, I threw this out there for the world to read. hope you enjoy the read.

http://boogie2988.tumblr.com/post/99898851778/lets-make-something-very-clear-about-gamergate

 

[voodoopanda]

The "pro-consumer" aspect of gamergate is interesting because it feels like a weird reversal.

When gamers came out against the ending of Mass Effect 3, the people who criticized the ending were considered pro-consumer, and the one's who defended the ending were seen to be sympathizing more with EA and Bioware than with the consumer.

When gamers came out against the portrayal of women in games, the people who criticized these portrayals are painted as pro-censorship & anti-consumer, and the one's who are defending the game company's decisions against criticism are now pro-consumer.

 

[Zen]

Anyway I'm going to turn in, sorry to anyone I may have offended, hopefully some good can come from all this... eventually... :\

 

[Neoriceisgood]

After thinking about whats happening to jim, I threw this out there for the world to read. hope you enjoy the read.

http://boogie2988.tumblr.com/post/99898851778/lets-make-something-very-clear-about-gamergate

Sarkeesian, if you want to correct it.

 

[dock]

And since it will be implied otherwise, no I do not condone the actions of the few who harass Jim for his opinions.... Nor do I wish to entirely abandon a hashtag because of them.

Sustaining the hashtag is tacit endorsement.

I understand if you want to join a campaign for some mythical improvement of games journalism, but it is achieving nothing other than closing down communication channels.

As a developer I'm certainly aware that there's an angry mob at the gates waiting to ruin any developer or journalist that steps out of line. Boogie, you are part of that mob.

 

[Zen]

I mean...I have a friend was was raped and beaten repeatedly over the course of years by her boyfriend and she never bothered to tell a soul. She doesn't want to out anyone. This isn't the way to go about abuse. But neither is heading to the web to sabotage someone. Just be an adult, get all the evidence (recordings, texts etc) and use that in court. And above all of that. Get real life people to help you get back on your feet.

Don't do what Eron did. And while we're at it, don't hire a hitman either. Or plan out a murder with some friends. I think Eron succeeded in what he wanted to do. A lot of people want Zoe dead and raped and they will never stop hating her for as long as she lives. So in a lot of ways, Eron got exactly what he wanted. :\ Also, people with depression are extremely hard to be around, so he should be happy he stuck around as long as he did.

We might disagree about Eron (well it's all speculative), but to everything else I say good point. He royally messed up, or maybe he should have tried to reach out to new outlets ahead of time to give them heads up, I don't know. I do know that so much pain and crap could have been minimized.

 

[boogie2988]

Sustaining the hashtag is tacit endorsement.

I understand if you want to join a campaign for some mythical improvement of games journalism, but it is achieving nothing other than closing down communication channels.

As a developer I'm certainly aware that there's an angry mob at the gates waiting to ruin any developer or journalist that steps out of line. Boogie, you are part of that mob.

You may lump me in with that mob, but I'm only outside of your gate begging them to see reason and to treat you and everyone else involved with kindness. I'm only there to ask them to practice passive agression and never storm those gates.

If you don't appreciate that, I understand. Doesn't change it though.

 

[zeldablue]

The "pro-consumer" aspect of gamergate is interesting because it feels like a weird reversal.

When gamers came out against the ending of Mass Effect 3, the people who criticized the ending were considered pro-consumer, and the one's who defended the ending were seen to be sympathizing more with EA and Bioware than with the consumer.

When gamers came out against the portrayal of women in games, the people who criticized these portrayals are painted as pro-censorship & anti-consumer, and the one's who are defending the game company's decisions against criticism are now pro-consumer.

Yeah...

I think it's just an extension of the fake girl gamer thing. It's pretty easy to dismiss a female as not being a "real gamer." Or maybe it's the fact that most believe that the majority trumps the minority voice.

I'm not sure. But I don't think this is a consumer revolt. I think this is a conservative consumer revolt reacting to a SJW consumer revolt.

 

[Jim Sterling]

The "pro-consumer" aspect of gamergate is interesting because it feels like a weird reversal.

When gamers came out against the ending of Mass Effect 3, the people who criticized the ending were considered pro-consumer, and the one's who defended the ending were seen to be sympathizing more with EA and Bioware than with the consumer.

When gamers came out against the portrayal of women in games, the people who criticized these portrayals are painted as pro-censorship & anti-consumer, and the one's who are defending the game company's decisions against criticism are now pro-consumer.

It's just another aspect of the movement of goalposts. You're supposed to hate the big corporations they specifically hate, and adore the ones they adore. Which corporation deserves what treatment is wholly dependent on, well, how they feel at the time.

One thing I learned through all of this is that you're only as good as the last time you pleased the crowd. You either march in lock-step and never say a word out of line, or you're dead to them.

At least until the next time you please them.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Not 'these people' at that time Gamergate was barely a thing. The articles needed to report and condemn the harassment, and explain how the claims were without merit (specifically, not just in passing); not make attack pieces against 'gamers' (perceived or otherwise). That was like fighting a fire by filling the hose with Gasoline where as they could have tried to nip things in the bud.

Is that the role of gaming media now, to condemn the practices of people on Twitter? I don't get what would be achieved by that. And I haven't seen any attack pieces against gamers. That some don't read the articles and just make up their own stories from a title can't be helped.

In the same way it's news when Phil said something stupid. Even if you are right to say 'well it's not game news' it was still out there, going to be discussed, and my argument would be that mishandling it caused more harm than good, I don't think that is up for debate at this point.

Not every websites covers that also. That is up to the editors at the website.

It is not up to gaming media to cover the personal lifes of game developers. And even then there is a big difference between having someone like Phil Fish put his own stuff online, and an angry ex-boyfriend putting his stuff online. If everyone just starts makign up stories about game developers, should all these be covered by gaming media. I don't think so.

I don't see how it is mishandled. Kotaku was the website attacked in the start. They put out a statement and that should have been the end of it. I still don't get what people in the Gamergate movement are trying to achieve by now. I don't think they know themselves mostly.

 

[dock]

You may lump me in with that mob, but I'm only outside of your gate begging them to see reason and to treat you and everyone else involved with kindness. I'm only there to ask them to practice passive agression and never storm those gates.

If you don't appreciate that, I understand. Doesn't change it though.

I read your post, and it sounds like you're trying to be awesome, but I don't see how GamerGate does anything awesome for anyone.

As a developer, I now feel that I will be shot down if I ever socialise with members of the press, or if I chat with them outside of public eye, or indeed if I engage with them on twitter. I feel as though if I make anything alternative, ESPECIALLY if I tackle anything personal or regarding social issues, I will be attacked. The only way to stay out of the firing line is to stay quiet.

I think people should be free to criticise Gone Home, and people should be free to criticise Call of Duty. I want press to write in an elated manner about work that moves them irrespective of whether they've ever been to a party with the developer.

I know so many developers in the industry and dislike most of their games, but I still respect them greatly as people. If I speak to say I am moved by a game I play, you can be sure that this is true. Assuming otherwise is okay too, you should do your own research on members of the industry remarking upon product within the industry.

I know writers and developers that are ducking out of the industry entirely because of this shit. Propping them up isn't helping games at all.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

What defines a "moderate" #GGer ? Someone who doesn't use naughty words when harassing people?

 

[SmZA]

What defines a "moderate" #GGer ? Someone who doesn't use naughty words when harassing people?

I wrote a little primer a page back

 

[boogie2988]

You know... reading this thread as well as reading a large number of the tweets on the gamergate hashtag daily, I have to wonder something.

Is my definition of 'harassment' askew? I mean, I wouldn't really call anything here in this thread 'harassment'. Certainly my character has been called into question and certainly my actions as well. I've also been called a lot of things that I don't think I represent. also I am criticized rather relentlessly.

Or am I confused and that IS harassment? Because I see #gamergaters doing this exact same kind of thing. I see them asking the same kinds of questions. I see them having the EXACT same kind of conversations we're having here, for the most part.

To me, the term harassment is reserved for stuff like; being told i'm a fat worthless shit that should kill himself. Its creating a youtube account called "Boogie2988 is a sellout" and threatening my life. Its creating a twitter account called "Boogiesmobilitycart" and claiming you want to kill yourself rather than have to be underneath me. Its calling my house, or calling a swat team, or making me feel unsafe in my home.

I do see gamergate doing this kind of thing, albeit very few of them participate in this kind of thing and the majority condemn it.

So, again I ask; are you guys harassing me and I don't know it, or are the majority of gamergaters who do the same thing NOT harassing people?

I dont' know that we can have it both ways so I'd really like to be clued in. If I'm being harassed here than I guess its pretty absurd to say that gamergaters arent doing the same thing. I hope that's not the case, tho. If so I'm REALLY dumb.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

You may lump me in with that mob, but I'm only outside of your gate begging them to see reason and to treat you and everyone else involved with kindness. I'm only there to ask them to practice passive agression and never storm those gates.

If you don't appreciate that, I understand. Doesn't change it though.

My $0.02 are: support everything you say you are going for. Do all that. Just do it without the GamerGate hashtag. It's worthless as it is meaningless and it only is getting more and more synonymous with hate and misogyny because of a group of rioters. Disband yourself from that flag invented, pushed and baptized by a crazy ultra-mega right winged nut job has-been Adam Baldwin. Nothing good can come from involving yourself with that warcry.

That's, of course, only my opinion.

And to Jim Sterling: I admire you're work and feel for you what's happening this past few days. Take your time to step back and collect your thoughts before coming back. Take care.

 

[SwissLion]

You may lump me in with that mob, but I'm only outside of your gate begging them to see reason and to treat you and everyone else involved with kindness. I'm only there to ask them to practice passive agression and never storm those gates.

If you don't appreciate that, I understand. Doesn't change it though.

You may be chanting something nicer, but you're still out there, in the middle of the throng, wearing the same shirt as them, and they're all drowning you out with far, far less kind things. You're swelling their ranks. And believe me, a tiny fraction of them will actually listen to you. Most of them are going to say "Look Boogie's with us! We must be doing something right! Pull that battering ram up!"

Come stand on top of the gates with us. Get some perspective on the whole thing, and shrink the angry mob all at the same time and you'll be doing something good.

Nobody questions your motivations, Boogie. We're questioning your actions, and the merit and effects of them. By trying to be a voice for moderation in the ranks, are you actually leading to moderation, or just adding another voice to make the noise louder.

 

[Zen]

The funny part is, gamer-gate would also be much smaller if people didn't feel the need to go into all of this us versus them paradigms. The idea that nuance must be abandoned in discourse is a terrible precedent.

I don't see how it is mishandled. Kotaku was the website attacked in the start. They put out a statement and that should have been the end of it. I still don't get what people in the Gamergate movement are trying to achieve by now. I don't think they know themselves mostly.

Gamergate was always a scandal in search of a scandal because it's based on underlying problems and frustrations (on all spectrum's) within the industry.

 

[boogie2988]

I read your post, and it sounds like you're trying to be awesome, but I don't see how GamerGate does anything awesome for anyone.

As a developer, I now feel that I will be shot down if I ever socialise with members of the press, or if I chat with them outside of public eye, or indeed if I engage with them on twitter. I feel as though if I make anything alternative, ESPECIALLY if I tackle anything personal or regarding social issues, I will be attacked. The only way to stay out of the firing line is to stay quiet.

I think people should be free to criticise Gone Home, and people should be free to criticise Call of Duty. I want press to write in an elated manner about work that moves them irrespective of whether they've ever been to a party with the developer.

I know so many developers in the industry and dislike most of their games, but I still respect them greatly as people. If I speak to say I am moved by a game I play, you can be sure that this is true. Assuming otherwise is okay too, you should do your own research on members of the industry remarking upon product within the industry.

I know writers and developers that are ducking out of the industry entirely because of this shit. Propping them up isn't helping games at all.

I think you're very brave and I'm very sorry that you're feel this way and are stuck in that position. I promise that I will always use the hashtag to try to make sure the things you fear never come true.

But at the same time I have to say; welcome to my life as a youtuber. I signed a contract to promote a game that I'd already seen and wanted to help promote because I felt it might be game of the year; and I had to defend myself from the folks that were sicked on me because of an article at Kotaku (who gave me the chance to defend myself and for that I will be forever grateful).

This is, I feel, a part of being in the public eye. everything I do is scrutinized and my heart goes out to anyone who is new to it. I don't blame anyone for walking away either. Its certainly cost me years off of my already short life.

 

[boogie2988]

You may be chanting something nicer, but you're still out there, in the middle of the throng, wearing the same shirt as them, and they're all drowning you out with far, far less kind things. You're swelling their ranks. And believe me, a tiny fraction of them will actually listen to you. Most of them are going to say "Look Boogie's with us! We must be doing something right! Pull that battering ram up!"

Come stand on top of the gates with us. Get some perspective on the whole thing, and shrink the angry mob all at the same time and you'll be doing something good.

Nobody questions your motivations, Boogie. We're questioning your actions, and the merit and effects of them. By trying to be a voice for moderation in the ranks, are you actually leading to moderation, or just adding another voice to make the noise louder.

History will answer that question for you, and I'm in for the pound at this point. I guess time will tell. I hope that in the end, no matter how this crumbles, I'll be remembered as the guy who did his best to mitigate damage. If instead I'm remembered as a "monster who baited the journals and encouraged the demons" or however they spin it, I'll always at least know I did right by myself.

 

[zeldablue]

We might disagree about Eron (well it's all speculative), but to everything else I say good point. He royally messed up, or maybe he should have tried to reach out to new outlets ahead of time to give them heads up, I don't know. I do know that so much pain and crap could have been minimized.

I just want to make it clear, that I feel terrible for Eron more than likely being attacked by plenty of people on Twitter. I know plenty of girls like Zoe, and I think the whole scenario could've been avoided if there was better communication and some better coping strategies. Depression makes cheating more likely, due to loneliness and poor self esteem. Lying is also a byproduct and from the sounds of it, drinking was a part of it too.

I don't see Zoe as a villain. I think people with depression are just really hard to handle and aren't exactly in the best state of mind. This is especially true with the phenomena where depression tends to possess people into doing the opposite of what they consciously want to do. Which would explain why she would say "cheating is bad!" and then proceed to do just that. Maybe Zoe and Eron should look into shadow therapy or something.

A break up is essentially a grieving process that creates a lot of obsessive hatred, loneliness and contempt. If anyone reads his words, they'll probably taste the same bitter contempt and set out to harm Zoe for said reasons. The readers' feelings will be more amplified by the readers' own personal experiences with women who are similar or relatable to Zoe.

Either way. I think Gamergate and all things related to it are about miscommunication and a lack of genuine human understanding.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

You know... reading this thread as well as reading a large number of the tweets on the gamergate hashtag daily, I have to wonder something.

Is my definition of 'harassment' askew? I mean, I wouldn't really call anything here in this thread 'harassment'. Certainly my character has been called into question and certainly my actions as well. I've also been called a lot of things that I don't think I represent. also I am criticized rather relentlessly.

Or am I confused and that IS harassment? Because I see #gamergaters doing this exact same kind of thing. I see them asking the same kinds of questions. I see them having the EXACT same kind of conversations we're having here, for the most part.

To me, the term harassment is reserved for stuff like; being told i'm a fat worthless shit that should kill himself. Its creating a youtube account called "Boogie2988 is a sellout" and threatening my life. Its creating a twitter account called "Boogiesmobilitycart" and claiming you want to kill yourself rather than have to be underneath me. Its calling my house, or calling a swat team, or making me feel unsafe in my home.

I do see gamergate doing this kind of thing, albeit very few of them participate in this kind of thing and the majority condemn it.

So, again I ask; are you guys harassing me and I don't know it, or are the majority of gamergaters who do the same thing NOT harassing people?

I dont' know that we can have it both ways so I'd really like to be clued in. If I'm being harassed here than I guess its pretty absurd to say that gamergaters arent doing the same thing. I hope that's not the case, tho. If so I'm REALLY dumb.

A big difference between Neogaf & Twitter is that it's easy for you to just not read this thread.

A lot of people on twitter constantly @ someone while accusing them of things, demanding answers to questions or just generally implying they're dishonest/liars/whatever.

A lot of the stuff said on neogaf isn't harassment but easily could be if 20-30 of us kept including your username on twitter while talking about it, and didn't stop.

Forcing someone to participate in a conversation (even demanding it) can easily be considered harassment, being critical of someone but not forcing them to read/participate by definition, is not.

(Jim Sterling's a great example, apparently TONS of #GGers keep directly contacting him on twitter demanding a reaction/stance; even if they've said the exact same stuff as someone on neogaf, it crosses the line into harassment when people take away his ability to remove himself from the conversation; sometimes the sheer quantity & inescapability of certain behavior is what turns it into harassment.)

 

[ClosingADoor]

It is largely one big reactionary circle jerk now. Gamergate was always a scandal in search of a scandal because it's based on underlying problems and frustrations (on all spectrum's) within the industry,

Then the only thing to do is just wait it out and see when people get tired of it. Until the next scandal comes around and we can repeat the whole process.

It's really sad. I thought that with gaming becoming more mainstream - and it is the mainstream hobby right now - it would mature, become better and more diverse, offering experiences for everyone. But it seems a select group of people don't want that to happen.

 

[Zen]

Maybe I'm naive, but honestly I feel like there is still a way out that doesn't just involve death by attrition, a lot of people get unfairly maligned in this scenario and it makes me sad.

I just want to make it clear, that I feel terrible for Eron more than likely being attacked by plenty of people on Twitter. I know plenty of girls like Zoe, and I think the whole scenario could've been avoided if there was better communication and some better coping strategies. Depression makes cheating more likely, due to loneliness and poor self esteem. Lying is also a byproduct and from the sounds of it, drinking was a part of it too.

I don't see Zoe as a villain. I think people with depression are just really hard to handle and aren't exactly in the best state of mind. This is especially true with the phenomena where depression tends to possess people into doing the opposite of what they consciously want to do. Which would explain we she would say "cheating is bad!" and then proceed to do just that. Maybe Zoe and Eron should look into shadow therapy or something.

A break up is essentially a grieving process that creates a lot of obsessive hatred, loneliness and contempt. If anyone reads his words, they'll probably taste the same bitter contempt and set out to harm Zoe for said reasons. The readers' feelings will be more amplified by the readers' own personal experiences with women who are similar or relatable to Zoe.

Either way. I think Gamergate and all things related to it are about miscommunication and a lack of genuine human understanding.

I don't see Zoe as a villain either, mental illness is a terrible thing. I also agree with you that Eron is most likely bitter towards Zoe, no argument there.

And to the bolded, amen.

 

[boogie2988]

A big difference between Neogaf & Twitter is that it's easy for you to just not read this thread.

A lot of people on twitter constantly @ someone while accusing them of things, demanding answers to questions or just generally implying they're dishonest/liars/whatever.

A lot of the stuff said on neogaf isn't harassment but easily could be if 20-30 of us kept including your username on twitter while talking about it, and didn't stop.

Forcing someone to participate in a conversation (even demanding it) can easily be considered harassment, being critical of someone but not forcing them to read/participate by definition, is not.

(Jim Sterling's a great example, apparently TONS of #GGers keep directly contacting him on twitter demanding a reaction/stance; even if they've said the exact same stuff as someone on neogaf, it crosses the line into harassment when people take away his ability to remove himself from the conversation.)

If you don't believe that I have someone at least every 2-3 minutes criticizing me over this thing (and every other small detail for that matter) using the @ on twitter, you are mistaken. It is absolutely relentless.

But I see the fine and almost negligible line you have drawn. I don't know if everyone feels that way because to me they feel the same. I feel I have to participate in this conversation because I am being directly discussed. I believe most people would feel the same.

 

[SmZA]

I do see gamergate doing this kind of thing, albeit very few of them participate in this kind of thing and the majority condemn it.

How sure are you about this? There is ample evidence of fake accounts created in order to cover up the harassment campaign, including use of #notyourshield (though I guess not sufficient evidence it was an official 4chan 'anon' operation, whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean)? Is it possible the same people pretending to be reasonable while harassing Zoe Quinn are the same people pretending to be reasonable to you?

Is a two month old hashtag really the hill you want to die on?

 

[Messofanego]

Misnnamed him I think. He means PressFartToContinue. One of the more vocal "Everything is a conspiracy" members. The creepy stalker thing is in regards to the youtuber Dodger.

Oh phew. And yeah I heard about the Dodger thing, pretty bad.

 

[boogie2988]

How sure are you about this? There is ample evidence of fake accounts created in order to cover up the harassment campaign, including use of #notyourshield (though I guess not sufficient evidence it was an official 4chan 'anon' operation, whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean)? Is it possible the same people pretending to be reasonable while harassing Zoe Quinn are the same people pretending to be reasonable to you?

Is a two month old hashtag really the hill you want to die on?

I don't want to die on this hill and if I thought I would I wouldn't have climbed it. I am so sure about this that I have staked my career and because of that my life on it.

I have watched this entire thing develop from the inside and I can tell you that for every asshole there are a few THOUSAND gamers wrapped up in this thing who are just as kind as you or me.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

If you don't believe that I have someone at least every 2-3 minutes criticizing me over this thing (and every other small detail for that matter) using the @ on twitter, you are mistaken. It is absolutely relentless.

But I see the fine and almost negligible line you have drawn. I don't know if everyone feels that way because to me they feel the same. I feel I have to participate in this conversation because I am being directly discussed. I believe most people would feel the same.

I'm not saying you're not experiencing similar things on twitter. I'm drawing a distinction between a forum discussion & @ing people on twitter.

I understand that you feel like you wish to participate in this discussion to defend yourself, heck I've joined forums in the past just to correct statements said about me in the past. But you're still allowed to jump out of those threads without abandoning your own "Home".

Twitter harassment bombs (no matter if they're crude or "polite") can essentially render a person's online home (and make no mistake, for some people twitter is extremely significant) unsafe and unusable. I don't consider this line "negligible" at all, as I find personal safety (no matter if it's online & offline) a top priority for anyone.

(for clarity: I'm not denying that you're facing harassment. I'm just clarifying how I distinguish "similar comments" from being harassment or not depending on how they're delivered. I also have no idea how you assumed I think you're not dealing with this from anything I've said, so feel free to tell me how I've implied this so I can avoid doing so in the future.)

 

[Alex_Mexico]

You may be chanting something nicer, but you're still out there, in the middle of the throng, wearing the same shirt as them, and they're all drowning you out with far, far less kind things. You're swelling their ranks. And believe me, a tiny fraction of them will actually listen to you. Most of them are going to say "Look Boogie's with us! We must be doing something right! Pull that battering ram up!"

Come stand on top of the gates with us. Get some perspective on the whole thing, and shrink the angry mob all at the same time and you'll be doing something good.

Nobody questions your motivations, Boogie. We're questioning your actions, and the merit and effects of them. By trying to be a voice for moderation in the ranks, are you actually leading to moderation, or just adding another voice to make the noise louder.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Everything I think you summed it up nicely. And very eloquently put also. Kudos.

 

[SmZA]

I have watched this entire thing develop from the inside and I can tell you that for every asshole there are a few THOUSAND gamers wrapped up in this thing who are just as kind as you or me.

I'm not particularly kind. But best of luck to you.

 

[axisofweevils]

Mainstream media is starting to pick up on this. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/13/gamergate-right-wing-no-neutral-stance

We can acknowledge that not everyone on the bandwagon is a men’s rights activist. But what Gamergaters have in common with MRAs is a desperately selfish desire to sideline the problem of both passive and aggressive sexism in the gaming industry, for which they and we have to accept a measure of responsibility; they want to have a debate where they get to play maligned heroes and innocent victims.

That’s the real reason why they want to spin this as an apolitical consumer movement, rather than a swelling of vicious right-wing sentiment. And there is no neutral stance to take on that – we are either with them or against them.