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[freddy]

I have been reading this thread more regularly since GG led to Brianna Wu having to flee her home, and I felt compelled to chime in when we were accused of doing something we didn't do.

FWIW, Jim Sterling's thoughts here echo my own, specifically this tweet. It's embarrassing that this is still going on, and perhaps the biggest shame in all of this is that we're no longer having real conversations about actual ethical issues in games media.

I'm just pulling your leg about the bat signal. Why don't you PM a mod and see if you can't get a thread started. It might be best if a mod starts a thread like that so they can lay out the rules.

 

[Lime]

If anyone would have told me back in August during the atrocious Quinnspiracy debacle that it would have evolved into what Gamergate is now and the consequences resulting from the movement, I would have thought they were literally insane. I wouldn't have expected parts of the gaming community to be so naive and without perspective that they would continuously support a hate campaign against women with the support of right-winged opportunistic conspiracy nutjobs simply because these gamers didn't like women or being told that there's a problem with video game culture.

But again, this harassment is nothing new. This has been going on for years and years - the only difference is that the harassment has a name and a smokescreen for people to join.

Could we _please_, for the sake of common human decency, stop discussing whether or not the disgusting behaviour over the past month and a half can be excused as a reaction to opinion articles _written in the midst of those very same inhuman, false and harmful attacks on women in gaming, and in response to them?_

Firstly, it's a logical impossibility. Secondly, that kind of response has only served to underline and emphasise the need of every single person in gaming to denounce this thoroughly nasty and _ongoing_ behaviour.

I am seriously stupefied that people randomly bring it up, time and time again.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

Okay, so this is what I don't understand about the "moderate" gator who's just upset about those articles.

See, I was upset when a bunch of media people decided that ME3 was perfectly fine and entitled losers only disliked it because they didn't like sad endings, and that an ending change would ruin games-as-art forever. Even as someone who doesn't really care for DMC, I cringed whenever I heard "oh you just can't handle black hair." When Arthur Gies was acting like he had made some kind of secret bet where he had to defend SimCity for a whole week to win a million dollars? That was pretty funny! Or when we heard that Sony would implement DRM too, just like MS, because this was simply the inevitable arc of technology and we all had to accept it. Even in the months leading up to all of this insanity, it was a running joke among the mods to post obvious examples of Polygon's descent into clickbait after their longform features (sadly) failed to produce hits, even when Kuchera was insisting that "clickbait" didn't exist.

But I never joined a hashtag campaign over any of this. I made fun of them or vociferously disagreed with them online for far longer than is humanly healthy, yeah. But I have no idea what such a campaign would have done, or accomplished, that would be reasonable in any way, shape, or form.


So, as someone who's spent the last week trying to become good at fighting with a ninja frog pokeyman, and desperately trying to pretend that Ganondorf will be top-tier this time, I... wasn't really offended by any of these articles that apparently were supposed to be insulting me.

But you know what? Not my place to say what offends someone. Okay.

But... that leads me the question: If you honestly only joined the 'gate over those articles... why join a hashtag campaign? What, exactly, are you honestly doing with that campaign? What have you accomplished? What are you hoping to accomplish? What things are you doing right now that you honestly think will make those accomplishments happen? How much 'gate-related time have you spent actually working towards those goals, in comparison to just... telling people online that it's not about (bad thing), it's about (good thing)?

Because saying "well I'm a gamer and I'm not a misogynist" is all well and good, but you have to understand that most (if not all) of the people who wrote and agreed with those articles are "gamers" in the traditional sense as well, and they certainly don't think that all gamers are misogynists either. It's also not really accomplishing anything as a movement. So if you and the rest of the moderates aren't really moving anything forward, then the only visible action is from the people who are trying to accomplish a goal; and boy, do they have "interesting" goals. And so far, the only actions being taken are by the "crazies" who you claim don't represent you. That's why the only news being reported on is "person violently harassed out of their home after criticizing an internet movement," or "B-list actor thinks that small academic group that nobody has ever heard of is a government-funded conspiracy to control gaming."


So far, all of the moderates I've seen don't seem to be really doing anything with even a fraction of the effort as the "fringe that doesn't represent us." All I ever see of them is affirmations that they're respectable human beings (which is great, but I and most other people honestly weren't impugning you on that), or rushing to the defense of a nine-letter nonsense word whenever someone associated with it does something terrible.

What do you call members of a movement who don't actually... move?

Best post I have read so far. Bookmarked *

 

[boogie2988]

I have been reading this thread more regularly since GG led to Brianna Wu having to flee her home, and I felt compelled to chime in when we were accused of doing something we didn't do.

FWIW, Jim Sterling's thoughts here echo my own, specifically this tweet. It's embarrassing that this is still going on, and perhaps the biggest shame in all of this is that we're no longer having real conversations about actual ethical issues in games media.

No offense jason but if you wanted to have that conversation, you could. You don't need gamergate to do it.

If your organization decided tomorrow to pen a code of ethics, discuss it with your viewers, and then adhere to it you're certainly welcome to do that.

I think it would go a long way to regaining some consumer trust and gaining new readers as well. Just a thought.

I would also take it a step in the right direction I helped encourage and I'd sleep a hell of a lot better, to boot.

You could even rest assured that gamergate would get no satisfaction from it because as far as I can tell from the last time I read them discussing your website they say its "too late, just let it burn."

 

[Pyccko]

I'm just pulling your leg about the bat signal. Why don't you PM a mod and see if you can't get a thread started. It might be best if a mod starts a thread like that so they can lay out the rules.

The general feeling is that starting a journalism ethics thread right now wouldn't work out until the noise about GG has passed, otherwise it would inevitably just turn into this thread 2.0.

 

[tonysidaway]

It also sucks that I've sacrificed a large portion of my life and career to trying to get those things. Inlcusiveness in gaming. Integrity in gaming. Integrity in how its reported. Kindness. Love of the hobby. Erasings its stigma.

Gamergate will die, we can hope, and then we'll have a chance of those admirable things. I think it's surprising that you don't see Gamergate for what it is, but I've seen many others try to convince you without success. When it finally dies down, I will look to you as an ally as we try to pick up the pieces of a fractured community.

 

[zeldablue]

My Facebook frirnds who have discussed it, none of whom I believe post on any message boards, also view the movement as misogynistic

Likewise Boogie, my entire college has denounced the movement as misogynistic. They have personally targeted several game dev alumni and professors.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

The general feeling is that starting a journalism ethics thread right now wouldn't work out until the noise about GG has passed, otherwise it would inevitably just turn into this thread 2.0.

Didn't we have a game journalism thread on gaf that got completely destroyed by #GG discussions?

Likewise Boogie, my entire college has denounced the movement as misogynistic. They have personally targeted several game dev alumni and professors.

I actually only have 2 friends who are very pro-GG. Both of them have had a history of telling me how horrible feminism is.

 

[Lime]

No offense jason but if you wanted to have that conversation, you could. You don't need gamergate to do it.

If your organization decided tomorrow to pen a code of ethics, discuss it with your viewers, and then adhere to it you're certainly welcome to do that.

I think it would go a long way to regaining some consumer trust and gaining new readers as well. Just a thought.

I would also take it a step in the right direction I helped encourage and I'd sleep a hell of a lot better, to boot.

Unfortunately, changing the ethics conduct or policy or whatever it is Gamergate demands will run the risk of being interpreted as a win for Gamergate, and as a result it will be further strengthened and legitimized if Kotaku did anything in response to their pressure and harassment.

I personally don't think it is a wise avenue to pursue.

You could even rest assured that gamergate would get no satisfaction from it because as far as I can tell from the last time I read them discussing your website they say its "too late, just let it burn."

I don't think you should read them when they write incredibly hyperbolic stuff like that.

 

[boogie2988]

Gamergate will die, we can hope, and then we'll have a chance of those admirable things. I think it's surprising that you don't see Gamergate for what it is, but I've seen many others try to convince you without success. When it finally dies down, I will look to you as an ally as we try to pick up the pieces of a fractured community.

I am almost entirely certain I see gamergate for exactly what it is. Its the people trying to do the convincing that are wrong.

But they havent seen the inside of it, they haven't had debates with the people who are figureheads of it, and they don't fully understand how many tens of thousands of gamers are wrapped up in it that do not understand or even outright reject their ideals on the topic.

since I'm privvy to all of that, its impossible for me to drink that particular kool-aid.

 

[boogie2988]

Changing the ethics conduct or policy or whatever it is Gamergate demands unfortunately will run the risk of being interpreted as a win for Gamergate, and as a result it will be further strengthened and legitimized if Kotaku did anything in response to their pressure and harassment.

as I said, last I heard gamergate doesn't want reform any more for Kotaku. They think its impossible to save it. they just want it to burn.

I quite obviously disagree

 

[freddy]

The general feeling is that starting a journalism ethics thread right now wouldn't work out until the noise about GG has passed, otherwise it would inevitably just turn into this thread 2.0.

Hence why some strict rules would have to be laid out. It's not like we're discussing building a bridge across the Atlantic here, it's a thread on games forum. If it doesn't work you ban the people disrupting it and if that doesn't work you lock it. No big deal.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I love the cognitive dissonance between people thinking Kotaku should burn to the ground cause it's irredeemable & the hand waving of @Nero's past garbage articles cause "He apologized".

 

[boogie2988]

I love the cognitive dissonance between people thinking Kotaku should burn to the ground cause it's irredeemable & the hand waving of @Nero's past garbage articles cause "He apologized".

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

 

[Pyccko]

Didn't we have a game journalism thread on gaf that got completely destroyed by #GG discussions?

Yep.

Hence why some strict rules would have to be laid out. It's not like we're discussing building a bridge across the Atlantic, here it's a thread on games forum. If it doesn't work you ban the people disrupting it and if that doesn't work you lock it. No big deal.

I mean, we already tried once and it turned into a complete clusterfuck. I've seen multiple mods say it's just untenable to start a new one until the possibility of it actually staying on topic is much higher.

 

[freddy]

I mean, we already tried once and it turned into a complete clusterfuck. I've seen multiple mods say it's just untenable to start a new one until the possibility of it actually staying on topic is much higher.

Well, either way I'll leave it to Jason and the mods. It has my support if they make one.

 

[Riposte]

No one is attempting to justify or excuse any disgusting behavior by discussing Alexanders article. It's an explanation of the reaction to it that includes and goes beyond that. And the part it has played in this drama is undeniable, making it relevant to the subject. Moreover, if someone wants to defend it or discuss it's meaning, there's no reason why someone shouldn't be able to disagree with them.

 

[Tetsuo9]

Galactic Fork kind of touched upon this earlier:

Yes, I mean, I don't think that we should not stand up. What I meant is if we should switch the focus on asking/demanding devs to provide a safe environment with better technology and design instead of trying to educate people and waiting years for online communities to have less violence.

 

[Nephrahim]

Yep.



I mean, we already tried once and it turned into a complete clusterfuck. I've seen multiple mods say it's just untenable to start a new one until the possibility of it actually staying on topic is much higher.

I think most people are done with Gamergate enough that a topic would be made, though TBH I probably wouldn't join in that much because I'm not interested in games journalism, just this odd war of GGers vs SJWs.

 

[Corpekata]

Yes, I mean, I don't think that we should not stand up. What I meant is if we should switch the focus on asking/demanding devs to provide a safe environment with better technology and design instead of trying to educate people and waiting years for online communities to have less violence.

I think that's harder because it's something technical. I mean, they've been doing it for ages already. Nearly every MP game seems to have a shithead jail server but it doesn't seem to help.

I think people are more comfortable asking other people to not be dicks rather than asking devs and publishers to solve a problem they've been trying to for ages when most of us don't have the knowledge to know just how feasible it is.

 

[Jim Sterling]

Jim, I understand if you can't, but can you comment on the Escapist situation at all? You've been fairly aggressively critical on Twitter about that recent GG piece. I honestly agree that it was awful, but I would much rather have you in a position of even greater editorial influence over there rather then something like you leaving or cutting back on content with them. Of course both scenarios could be completely fanciful.

I've made it clear to Greg in no uncertain times that I felt left out to dry by that article, and that it put the site's reputation through the wringer. For what it's worth, I generally have a lot of respect when it comes to editorial over there, and I'm usually consulted on anything with controversial potential to offer my input on how to improve a piece, or even if a piece is a good idea to run. In this case, I wasn't asked for input, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake.

I think Greg, at the very least, wants to make it right.

I won't lie, I've been considering my future a lot lately. Not just when it comes to my current job, but my entire choice of industry. The past six weeks have brought that up for a lot of people. Fact is, I don't know what road I'm taking with regards to leaving or cutting back content anywhere. All I know for sure is that right now, the love for what I do is lower than it's ever been, and I am doing what I can to keep myself into it.

 

[Nephrahim]

I've made it clear to Greg in no uncertain times that I felt left out to dry by that article, and that it put the site's reputation through the wringer. For what it's worth, I generally have a lot of respect when it comes to editorial over there, and I'm usually consulted on anything with controversial potential to offer my input on how to improve a piece, or even if a piece is a good idea to run. In this case, I wasn't asked for input, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake.

I think Greg, at the very least, wants to make it right.

I won't lie, I've been considering my future a lot lately. Not just when it comes to my current job, but my entire choice of industry. The past six weeks have brought that up for a lot of people. Fact is, I don't know what road I'm taking with regards to leaving or cutting back content anywhere. All I know for sure is that right now, the love for what I do is lower than it's ever been, and I am doing what I can to keep myself into it.

That's rough man, but I get it. I can't imagine what it'd feel like to see the audience for my content turn on me, and just in general act like this.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I've made it clear to Greg in no uncertain times that I felt left out to dry by that article, and that it put the site's reputation through the wringer. For what it's worth, I generally have a lot of respect when it comes to editorial over there, and I'm usually consulted on anything with controversial potential to offer my input on how to improve a piece, or even if a piece is a good idea to run. In this case, I wasn't asked for input, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake.

I think Greg, at the very least, wants to make it right.

I won't lie, I've been considering my future a lot lately. Not just when it comes to my current job, but my entire choice of industry. The past six weeks have brought that up for a lot of people. Fact is, I don't know what road I'm taking with regards to leaving or cutting back content anywhere. All I know for sure is that right now, the love for what I do is lower than it's ever been, and I am doing what I can to keep myself into it.

For what it's worth, I find yours one of the most enjoyable voices within the entire industry.

 

[SwissLion]

I've made it clear to Greg in no uncertain times that I felt left out to dry by that article, and that it put the site's reputation through the wringer. For what it's worth, I generally have a lot of respect when it comes to editorial over there, and I'm usually consulted on anything with controversial potential to offer my input on how to improve a piece, or even if a piece is a good idea to run. In this case, I wasn't asked for input, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake.

I think Greg, at the very least, wants to make it right.

I won't lie, I've been considering my future a lot lately. Not just when it comes to my current job, but my entire choice of industry. The past six weeks have brought that up for a lot of people. Fact is, I don't know what road I'm taking with regards to leaving or cutting back content anywhere. All I know for sure is that right now, the love for what I do is lower than it's ever been, and I am doing what I can to keep myself into it.

All I can say to this is that as a representative of the heretofore silent majority, I respect your work and believe it materially improves the industry.

Hopefully going forward that majority will be less and less silent, but try not to forget they're there. Do it for them, with confidence in the knowledge that those who have shit up this industry are a dying breed.

Edit: You're also, to me, one of the best examples of personal improvement I can think of in the industry. Proof that people can self-analyse and improve themselves, and improve their lives and those of others in doing so.

 

[Lalalandia]

FWIW, Jim Sterling's thoughts here echo my own, specifically this tweet. It's embarrassing that this is still going on, and perhaps the biggest shame in all of this is that we're no longer having real conversations about actual ethical issues in games media.

Yeah I lament the passing of the Rab Florence thread too, I guess it comes down to whether any thread on ethics in games journalism can be had right now without GG drowning out any debate. I know the concern has been raised that moderating even just this thread is time intensive and trying to keep a 'no GG just ethics' thread OT could overwhelm folks.

It's a shame really there was some really good debate in that Rab thread with plenty of folks from all sides involved before GG poisoned everything

 

[More_Badass]

I've made it clear to Greg in no uncertain times that I felt left out to dry by that article, and that it put the site's reputation through the wringer. For what it's worth, I generally have a lot of respect when it comes to editorial over there, and I'm usually consulted on anything with controversial potential to offer my input on how to improve a piece, or even if a piece is a good idea to run. In this case, I wasn't asked for input, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake.

I think Greg, at the very least, wants to make it right.

I won't lie, I've been considering my future a lot lately. Not just when it comes to my current job, but my entire choice of industry. The past six weeks have brought that up for a lot of people. Fact is, I don't know what road I'm taking with regards to leaving or cutting back content anywhere. All I know for sure is that right now, the love for what I do is lower than it's ever been, and I am doing what I can to keep myself into it.

Damn it, those people are ruining the medium I love. It's so frustrating. Is there anything people like me can do to help? Not in just denouncing the hateful elements and actions of GG, but helping the medium in general?

The whole medium is suffering because of this, great writers and devs leaving or considering leaving, people who wanted to get into game dev now fearful and hesitant to do so. It's so frustrating

 

[jschreier]

I've made it clear to Greg in no uncertain times that I felt left out to dry by that article, and that it put the site's reputation through the wringer. For what it's worth, I generally have a lot of respect when it comes to editorial over there, and I'm usually consulted on anything with controversial potential to offer my input on how to improve a piece, or even if a piece is a good idea to run. In this case, I wasn't asked for input, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake.

I think Greg, at the very least, wants to make it right.

I won't lie, I've been considering my future a lot lately. Not just when it comes to my current job, but my entire choice of industry. The past six weeks have brought that up for a lot of people. Fact is, I don't know what road I'm taking with regards to leaving or cutting back content anywhere. All I know for sure is that right now, the love for what I do is lower than it's ever been, and I am doing what I can to keep myself into it.

I won't begrudge you for leaving -- you've gotta do what's best for you -- but it'd really bum me out to see these disgusting bullies claim another victim. Stay strong.

 

[RoboPlato]

I was up very early this morning so, while I have a lot to say on this topic, I'll just say for now that the past few pages have demonstrated the rampant toxicity and hypocrisy of this movement. They're chasing out some of the best voices in the industry, and many of the people that stand for what they claim their movement is about, while still protecting the scumbags who keep attacking prominent women in the industry. It's sickening and I wish I could do something to stop it. It's been years since I've been so embarrassed to be a fan of this hobby.

To both Boogie and Jim, I'm a big fan of both of your work and hope that you can find some peace of mind.

 

[Jim Sterling]

Damn it, those people are ruining the medium I love. It's so frustrating. Is there anything people like me can do to help? Not in just denouncing the hateful elements and actions of GG, but helping the medium in general?

From a personal standpoint, I said earlier in this thread that NeoGAF is, itself, proving to be a positive force in keeping me optimistic. Seeing so many level-headed gamers who DO want to support all manner of voices in the industry reminds me that the majority of you all contribute to making this industry worth it.

I honestly don't know what more can be done. Just keep supporting each other and being good people.

 

[FoneBone]

I won't begrudge you for leaving -- you've gotta do what's best for you -- but it'd really bum me out to see these disgusting bullies claim another victim. Stay strong.

When the disgusting bullies - or, at least in Macris' case, those avowedly sympathetic to them - are running the site...

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Damn it, those people are ruining the medium I love. It's so frustrating. Is there anything people like me can do to help? Not in just denouncing the hateful elements and actions of GG, but helping the medium in general?

The whole medium is suffering because of this, great writers and devs leaving or considering leaving, people who wanted to get into game dev now fearful and hesitant to do so. It's so frustrating

Yeah, this is what really saddens me. Videogames are worse now because of all the talented people driven out by GG and I can't really do anything. Loosing Jim would be tragic but I can unterstand him. Dark times, if the people most critical of PR bullshit are driven out by a movement claiming it wants to "improve" journalistic integrity and ethics.

 

[jschreier]

When the disgusting bullies - or, at least in Macris' case, those avowedly sympathetic to them - are running the site...

I meant leaving gaming as a whole.

 

[Lime]

If anyone read John Walker's piece yesterday on his own personal experience of harassment, he wrote a new one today:

GG got very cross yesterday and overnight with my having written about how much abuse and harassment I received. I mentioned that I’d received thousands of unpleasant tweets. I came to this figure based on an average bad evening of it would see 500+ tweets coming in, and this happened multiple times. Within them were a number of extremely unpleasant and distressing tweets, with demands that I kill myself and so forth. This was one of them (which GG has been desperately trying to declare can’t be anything to do with them because of X, Y and Z, then someone else pointing out he was, and then tweets get deleted, and so on).

GG participants are FURIOUS with me, and have attempted to disprove that I’ve received any abuse at all, via various searches. However, they used Topsy, which only stores a month’s worth, meaning it went back only as far as 12th Sept, after the bulk of the abuse I received had happened. Their search also only included that which had the #gamergate tag in it. This also doesn’t work, as the vast majority of the abuse I received came without it. People would send me a tweet saying whatever, and if I replied, they’d then frantically add in the tag to get back-up. This would then bring dozens more in who were following the tag, also insulting me without the tag, and then themselves only adding it in if I replied pointing out they were incorrect, etc.

The reality is, I spent two weeks receiving extraordinary amounts of unpleasant comments, most of them mild, but unrelenting. It was miserable, my wife saw it all happening and it made her miserable, my friends saw it, people argued with these people at the time – it all happened. It’s important that I maintain this, in the face of an attempt to discredit it.

 

[Lalalandia]

I've made it clear to Greg in no uncertain times that I felt left out to dry by that article, and that it put the site's reputation through the wringer. For what it's worth, I generally have a lot of respect when it comes to editorial over there, and I'm usually consulted on anything with controversial potential to offer my input on how to improve a piece, or even if a piece is a good idea to run. In this case, I wasn't asked for input, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake.

I think Greg, at the very least, wants to make it right.

I won't lie, I've been considering my future a lot lately. Not just when it comes to my current job, but my entire choice of industry. The past six weeks have brought that up for a lot of people. Fact is, I don't know what road I'm taking with regards to leaving or cutting back content anywhere. All I know for sure is that right now, the love for what I do is lower than it's ever been, and I am doing what I can to keep myself into it.

That would be a real shame we've lost too many voices to the hate that has been boiling around this thing, FWIW I've personally gone on a journey from 'WTF is this?!?' to 'Goddammit where is my next Jimquisition I needs it nows!!!!111' with your content. Your willingness to comment on both ends of a debate has forced me to look anew at some things I'd considered 'obvious'. Keep on creating Jim while it makes sense for you (and I hope that's for a long time yet).

 

[Neoriceisgood]

From a personal standpoint, I said earlier in this thread that NeoGAF is, itself, proving to be a positive force in keeping me optimistic. Seeing so many level-headed gamers who DO want to support all manner of voices in the industry reminds me that the majority of you all contribute to making this industry worth it.

I honestly don't know what more can be done. Just keep supporting each other and being good people.

If it gives you any comfort, I'm fairly certain the backlash is so loud precisely because the positive force is gaining more and more influence.

The tension that causes is just extremely unpleasant, but it's often a sign of progress becoming so prominent that it can no longer be ignored.

 

[Lime]

If this is how gamer bigots react to women existing in their spaces, I wonder how they are going to deal with racial and sexual diversity once (hopefully soon) becomes at the forefront of the cultural discourse.

Then again, I saw how people reacted to San Andreas and to Croal's criticism of Resident Evil 5, so who knows.

 

[RubberJohnny]

I'm beginning to slowly understand that I'll never have what I am fighting so desperately for in this lifetime and GG and the events surrounding it are proving it. This is literally killing me inside.

It also sucks that I've sacrificed a large portion of my life and career to trying to get those things. Inlcusiveness in gaming. Integrity in gaming. Integrity in how its reported. Kindness. Love of the hobby. Erasings its stigma.

I'll not live to see a single one of those things and there are tons of people on every side who are going to absolutely make sure of that.

I don't get why you think that anti-GG are opposed to integrity or inclusiveness in gaming, or loving the hobby (or why anti-GG is supposedly an organised movement rather than just a bunch of people aghast at the attacks on women in the industry).

GG has been attacking women and attempting to push gaming out, with talks of "cultural marxism" and Jewish control of the media - all very extreme right memes, so less inclusivity there. On the other side, there's been no censorship, just forum moderation which is mistaken for it.

They've been happy to throw their towel in with people like Yianopolous who hated gaming and gamers and attacked them, just because he agrees with them, whereas a lot of the feminism stuff is coming from long term gamers who've grown up with games, but found that the games haven't quite grown up with them at the same rate.

And GG have been pushing numerous boycotts, as well as an alternative gaming site that right out of the gate involves reviews that involve conflicts of interest, whereas on the other side, they've completely failed to find any ethical issues (not saying they don't exist) and most of the ones they focus on are often an excuse to harass women.

 

[Silky]

Nevermind.

 

[besada]

I've made it clear to Greg in no uncertain times that I felt left out to dry by that article, and that it put the site's reputation through the wringer. For what it's worth, I generally have a lot of respect when it comes to editorial over there, and I'm usually consulted on anything with controversial potential to offer my input on how to improve a piece, or even if a piece is a good idea to run. In this case, I wasn't asked for input, and that's been acknowledged as a mistake.

I think Greg, at the very least, wants to make it right.

I won't lie, I've been considering my future a lot lately. Not just when it comes to my current job, but my entire choice of industry. The past six weeks have brought that up for a lot of people. Fact is, I don't know what road I'm taking with regards to leaving or cutting back content anywhere. All I know for sure is that right now, the love for what I do is lower than it's ever been, and I am doing what I can to keep myself into it.

I will be totally straight with you, Jim, and admit I've never read or watched your stuff. Not because I have anything against you, mind, but because I simply don't consume video game news other than long-form pieces and whatever flotsam turns up on GAF.

That said, I appreciate you standing up, which I imagine is particularly difficult for you, given your relationship with The Escapist. I hope that those people who believe they can shout down and harass into silence others, don't cause you to leave the industry.

But I also understand that sometimes the harassment and attacks become too much. The most important thing, for you, Boogie, and anyone else being attacked by the little shitlers, is to take care of yourselves. At the end of the day, it's video games we're talking about, and no one should be scared for their lives over it.

 

[RoboPlato]

If this is how gamer bigots react to women existing in their spaces, I wonder how they are going to deal with racial and sexual diversity once (hopefully soon) becomes at the forefront of the cultural discourse.

Then again, I saw how people reacted to San Andreas and to Croal's criticism of Resident Evil 5, so who knows.

This whole thing stems from an immature understanding of what criticism is, particularly in regards to Tropes vs. Criticism is not a condemnation, but a chance to improve. Many see it an attack and therefore can't just ignore it or engage with it in a meaningful way. It's really disappointing to me since I think real game criticism is fascinating but this whole fiasco has proven that not enough people are ready for it.

 

[More_Badass]

From a personal standpoint, I said earlier in this thread that NeoGAF is, itself, proving to be a positive force in keeping me optimistic. Seeing so many level-headed gamers who DO want to support all manner of voices in the industry reminds me that the majority of you all contribute to making this industry worth it.

I honestly don't know what more can be done. Just keep supporting each other and being good people.

Yeah, this is what really saddens me. Videogames are worse now because of all the talented people driven out by GG and I can't really do anything. Loosing Jim would be tragic but I can unterstand him. Dark times, if the people most critical of PR bullshit are driven out by a movement claiming it wants to "improve" journalistic integrity and ethics.

It's just...ugh, I got into gaming thanks to indies. Well I had consoles before, but it was stuff like Facade and Nitronic Rush and Warning Forever and N and Meat Boy, that spawned my passion for indies and for my love for the diversity of the medium. I feel helpless, seeing the games medium, one that I feel has more potential and room for growth than any other form of entertainment, being attacked and damaged like this.

These people that harass and attack, they don't speak for me, for the vast audience that takes part in the hobby. Games are still young compared to other mediums, and I would hate to see that vocal minority ruin it for all of us. Games are more widespread than ever, need to grow and mature, and now that growth is just being stunted. It's so frustrating.

I do find solace in hanging out in the TIGSource forums and looking through Screenshot Saturday. Seeing games being made, seeing progress and development as it happenes, all those wonderful creative concepts, makes me remember why I love the medium so much and gives me hope for its future

I just wish I could do more.

 

[Cyrano]

No offense jason but if you wanted to have that conversation, you could. You don't need gamergate to do it.

Actually he did want to do this a while back, but the mods told him to hold off until the GamerGate things blows over. So, while he may be able to do that on Twitter or elsewhere (which I expect would be hijacked), here at GAF it's on hold. Which I do not think is a bad idea, since I suspect that it too would be hijacked.

GamerGate is actively disrupting conversations that need to be held because it is so extremely overwhelming and stymies having a conversation about these issues.

 

[tonysidaway]

But they havent seen the inside of it, they haven't had debates with the people who are figureheads of it...

So, Milo is a secret feminist who wants diversity like you do? "Sargon of Akkad" is just joshing when he talks of a secret feminist plot to take over gaming via DiGRA? Then why do they say the opposite in public?

 

[Lime]

The Guardian is pretty straightforward in its final paragraph in its coverage of Gamergate:

We can acknowledge that not everyone on the bandwagon is a men’s rights activist. But what Gamergaters have in common with MRAs is a desperately selfish desire to sideline the problem of both passive and aggressive sexism in the gaming industry, for which they and we have to accept a measure of responsibility; they want to have a debate where they get to play maligned heroes and innocent victims.

That’s the real reason why they want to spin this as an apolitical consumer movement, rather than a swelling of vicious right-wing sentiment. And there is no neutral stance to take on that – we are either with them or against them.

 

[tonysidaway]

No one is attempting to justify or excuse any disgusting behavior by discussing Alexanders article. It's an explanation of the reaction to it that includes and goes beyond that. And the part it has played in this drama is undeniable, making it relevant to the subject. Moreover, if someone wants to defend it or discuss it's meaning, there's no reason why someone shouldn't be able to disagree with them.

How did the people who started this misogynist rampage know about the articles _weeks before they were written_?

 

[Brewster's Wallet]

If this is how gamer bigots react to women existing in their spaces, I wonder how they are going to deal with racial and sexual diversity once (hopefully soon) becomes at the forefront of the cultural discourse.

Then again, I saw how people reacted to San Andreas and to Croal's criticism of Resident Evil 5, so who knows.

The thing I struggle to get my head around is how some of the most angry and crazy of the people commenting about the whole thing operate in day-to-day life and in the workplace. I can only imagine they have only male friends, or are in a very male dominated office/working environment.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I think gamergate people forcing others out is evidence enough that the only way to really combat this is for there to be an obvious, opposing force. Sites should come out and say "Hey, whatever your goals were, this has officially gone too far." Not just a few sites, but any that wields influence or readership numbers significant enough to get a few eyes.

I think there's an optimistic part of me that thinks most of these people are teenagers or 20-somethings that were bullied and now see this as their chance at taking back empowerment and are too drunk at the Kool-Aid to believe the level of harassment going on around them. I want to believe that these people will stop and be repulsed by the movement when they realize what is actually happening.

But I think the realistic part of me knows they'll merely use it as more fuel for their propaganda. I have no idea how you combat a force so willing to lie for their own personal end goals, since that level of insincerity is volatile when mixed with the awesome influence it unfortunately wields.

 

[vcc]

No one is attempting to justify or excuse any disgusting behavior by discussing Alexanders article. It's an explanation of the reaction to it that includes and goes beyond that. And the part it has played in this drama is undeniable, making it relevant to the subject. Moreover, if someone wants to defend it or discuss it's meaning, there's no reason why someone shouldn't be able to disagree with them.

I think the problem is the article is objectively someone venting about something. It has no further implications but #GG treats it like some major touchstone. Like anyone except gamers were reading it or it had sway beyond her readership of gamers and gaming devs.

It's like Japan justifying the rape of Nanjing by citing an mean article about the Japanese in the local paper. It just seem preposterous. The reaction far exceeds what is reasonable for what happened. The article didn't murder gamer children but #GG treats it as a huge event.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

The Guardian is pretty straightforward in its final paragraph in its coverage of Gamergate:

summed up quite nicely.

 

[vcc]

summed up quite nicely.

Looks like #GG brigaded into the comments as they are apt to do.