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[Morrigan Stark]

We are comparing depictions of Sexualization to racism now.......

Man we really have an unhealthy view of sex and the human body in modern culture. Its actually scary how we got here

It's not about views on sex and the human body, it's about stereotypes. But nice attempt at going with a thinly-veiled "you're a prude!" argument.

Sex being taboo is a disturbing mindset.

It's not about sex being taboo. It's not about hating sex.

Jesus fucking christ.

 

[The Shogun]

In your mind, were people mad at the movie Birth of a Nation (which glorified the KKK and portrayed blacks as evil) because they felt the need to defend the film projections they saw on the screen, or were they mad because it was promoting the KKK?

You are comparing depictions of T and A to the KKK. That is terrifying.

Liking women's features is the basics of anatomy. We are biologicaly programmed for this to encourage reproduction.

Sex being taboo is a disturbing mindset.

 

[Devolution]

The prude argument is so hilarious.

God, me a prude.

Lawd you don't even know...

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The prude argument is so hilarious.

God, me a prude.

Lawd you don't even know...

I know right?

 

[The Shogun]

It's not about views on sex and the human body, it's about stereotypes. But nice attempt at going with a thinly-veiled "you're a prude!" argument.

Im not trying to thinly veil anything. Why on earth should sexual depictions of tits, ass, dicks, abs, or anything be looked down on.

Its in your DNA.

 

[Tapejara]

Making this post on mobile at two in the morning before I go to bed, so apologies if it isn't that coherent or I don't respond:

I feel that objectification depends on the context of the game. I don't really have a blanket rule for what I consider distasteful, rather I look to the game to justify gratuitous nudity (and violence as well). With this being said, I am in total agreement with Lime that criticism of a game is not an attack on the developers or the fans. Criticism is an important aspect of any medium, and vying for better representation is a fair criticism. Developers have every right to create what they want, however we as consumers also have the right to criticize their work.

 

[way more]

You are comparing depictions of T and A to the KKK. That is terrifying.

Liking women's features is the basics of anatomy. We biologicaly programmed for this too encourage reproduction.

Sex being taboo is a disturbing mindset.

OK, let me rephrase. If someone creates a inherently sexist and gross depiction of women, do you think the people that label the work as sexist are defending the honor of the ink and paper or the animation cell or the one's and zero's of code?

And I'm comparing racism to sexism. That doesn't mean I'm comparing race to intercourse.

 

[Devolution]

I watch porn.

I've gone to strip clubs.

Once can be a sexual human being and still be utterly bored to death and annoyed by the lack of better representation of women in video games.

It's not about being a prude, it's about desiring some variety and more/better protagonists and side characters.

The prude argument is some real ass pulling.

 

[The Shogun]

Porn is outright objectifying the human body. With real people. Is porn morally wrong and evil? And if so should we look down on it and try to remove it from society? Because there is nothing as purely objectifying as porn.

People need to understand taking pleasure in the anatomy of sex is a biological characteristic and at times yes objectifying is not bad. Twilight outright objectifies the male body for female fantasy and I think things like that are great and should be encouraged.

 

[The Shogun]

OK, let me rephrase. If someone creates a inherently sexist and gross depiction of women, do you think the people that label the work as sexist are defending the honor of the ink and paper or the animation cell or the one's and zero's of code?

And I'm comparing racism to sexism. That doesn't mean I'm comparing race to intercourse.

Sexism is wrong I 100% agree with that. Looking down or portraying the opposite sex in a negative light should be frowned upon.

But enhancing their sexual features? No way its natural for both sexes to enjoy that.

 

[MikeOfTheLivingDead]

The prude argument is so hilarious.

God, me a prude.

Lawd you don't even know...

A prude is a person who claims to be easily offended by matters of sex or nudity. If you are offended by sex in video games and decrying it publicly you are most definitely a prude regardless of what porn you wack off to or who or what you stick in your orifices. You are on the same level as a congressman who legislates morality while secretly sending dick pics to campaign workers or sucking off strangers in an airport bathroom.

 

[way more]

Sexism is wrong I 100% agree with that. Looking down or portraying the opposite sex in a negative light should be frowned upon But enhancing their sexual features? No way its natural for both sexes to enjoy that.

Then you understand how portraying women as dim-witted bimbos whose only purpose is to sexually gratify the men they encounter would be sexist? Or is that "sexy?" and I'm being a prude for questioning the depiction?

If boob size is what you are reducing the argument down to then I'm not sure who you are debating.

 

[Devolution]

A prude is a person who claims to be easily offended by matters of sex or nudity. If you are offended by sex in video games and decrying it publicly you are most definitely a prude regardless of what porn you wack off to or who or what you stick in your orifices. You are on the same level as a congressman who legislates morality while secretly sending dick pics to campaign workers or sucking off strangers in an airport bathroom.

The argument is more nuanced than being against sex, it's about wanting to see women in different roles. But sure keep the argument as "prudes vs the rest of us" in order to totally avoid any introspection of the games and their lack of decent representation of the female gender.

 

[The Shogun]

People need to understand the disconnect between what is fake and what is real. You should not in your daily life objectify the women around you and treat them like crap. That simply makes you a disgusting douche.


At home though? If you want to watch some porn or play a sexual themed game or read a sexualized book go for it! Thats why it exists! To fulfill the biological impulse your body has. Same for women. Get in touch with your sexuality. Its healthy.

 

[Kelthink]

Porn is outright objectifying the human body. With real people. Is porn morally wrong and evil? And if so should we look down on it and try to remove it from society? Because there is nothing as purely objectifying as porn.

People need to understand taking pleasure in the anatomy of sex is a biological characteristic and at times yes objectifying is not bad. Twilight outright objectifies the male body for female fantasy and I think things like that are great and should be encouraged.

But videogames, yeah?

 

[way more]

Didn't they depict all the feminist of the 60's and 70's as sex-terrified prudes too? I guess that tactic never went out of style.

 

[The Shogun]

Then you understand how portraying women as dim-witted bimbos whose only purpose is to sexually gratify the men they encounter would be sexist? Or is that "sexy?" and I'm being a prude for questioning the depiction?

If boob size is what you are reducing the argument down to then I'm not sure who you are debating.

If you watch porn what are you doing. You are 100% without question objectifying a real physical person. This cannot be debated. There is a difference in objectifying something that is DESIGNED to be objectified and treating those in your daily life like a sexist asshole. Its called being a decent person.

 

[hurricanes]

Yes it is. See "Papers Please". It's an idea that could have been pushed even further into getting players to really think about their own prejudices. Putting a player in the role of discriminator, instead of playing the paragon of virtue is a fantastic way to make a point. "This game is making me feel bad. Why is it making me feel this way?"

No that is NOT a discriminate game. It did NOT distort the facts.

A game that racist/discriminate is, for example: a game featuring white and black people, where whites are all kind/honest and blacks are evil/mean.

 

[The Shogun]

Didn't they depict all the feminist of the 60's and 70's as sex-terrified prudes too? I guess that tactic never went out of style.

I never claimed anyone here was a prude. Im simply stating I believe many here are over analyzing depictions of sex that are MEANT to titilate.

Again sexism = gross
Depicting sex in media even in exaggerated scenarios = ok

 

[fedexpeon]

So it's ok to make a discriminate game after all, rules of the earth do not apply since it is a fictional world.

Well, you are discriminating other people cultures and social norms by not acknowledging that there are other fictional creations that are subjected to those people.
You can't just blanket everything with one ideology of equality and norms for these works of fiction.
They are created by humans, yes, but they are all created differently.
The ME will view ours norms as weird, and we will in turn view theirs as outdated.
Thus, their works of fiction will have a lot of differences from ours.

 

[bwakh]

I like this answer. It lets me play the most games.

I'm in this club as well. Let's me enjoy them too

 

[Dice//]

Didn't they depict all the feminist of the 60's and 70's as sex-terrified prudes too? I guess that tactic never went out of style.

Them penises, man

 

[MikeOfTheLivingDead]

No that is NOT a discriminate game. It did NOT distort the facts.

A game that discriminate is, for example: a game featuring white and black people, where whites are all kind/honest and blacks are evil/mean.

I don't agree with your simplistic black and white definition of what discrimination is, but this pretty far off topic.

 

[way more]

If you watch porn what are you doing. You are 100% without question objectifying a real physical person. This cannot be debated. There is a difference in objectifying something that is DESIGNED to be objectified and treating those in your daily life like a sexist asshole. Its called being a decent person.

I'll go one further, we objectify people daily in life and it's not a bad thing. I objectify a fireman if I only think of them as that, or a receptionist if I only look at their job title and not who they are as a person. It's a necessary aspect humans need to get through the day.

Unfortunately for you, you seem to not understand that racist, sexist literature isn't just about harming the ink on the page but about reinforcing the idea that genders and races should be treated as less than. When questioned on your stance of racist/sexist literature you only seem to think of porn.

Porn is a separate thing from art, we all know this. You can't get out of art criticism by just calling it porn or comparing it to porn.

You seem to have already said that some art can be sexist or racist. Now if someone creates a inherently sexist and gross depiction of women, do you think the people that label the work as sexist are defending the honor of the ink and paper or the animation cell or the one's and zero's of code?

I never claimed anyone here was a prude. Im simply stating I believe many here are over analyzing depictions of sex that are MEANT to titilate.

Again sexism = gross
Depicting sex in media even in exaggerated scenarios = ok

Are you able to imagine a scenario when the two overlap? Are things only either sexist or porn?

 

[The Shogun]

By the way this is a healthy debate and something good that shoukd be talked about. I'm glad places like GAF have this up for debate. I'm not trying to offend anyone or discourage others opinions but I really do feel like gaming culture has this odd obsession with over analyzing our depictions of sex. There is a difference between a game designer heavy sexualizing his designs because he's hetero male and thats what he's into and going around treating real people in your lives like a sexist a hole.

 

[The Shogun]

I'll go one further, we objectify people daily in life and it's not a bad thing. I objectify a fireman if I only think of them as that, or a receptionist if I only look at their job title and not who they are as a person. It's a necessary aspect humans need to get through the day.

Unfortunately for you, you seem to not understand that racist, sexist literature isn't just about harming the ink on the page but about reinforcing the idea that genders and races should be treated as less than. When questioned on your stance of racist/sexist literature you only seem to think of porn.

Porn is a separate thing from art, we all know this. You can't get out of art criticism by just calling it porn or comparing it to porn.

You seem to have already said that some art can be sexist or racist. Now if someone creates a inherently sexist and gross depiction of women, do you think the people that label the work as sexist are defending the honor of the ink and paper or the animation cell or the one's and zero's of code?



Are you able to imagine a scenario when the two overlap? Are things only either sexist or porn?

No I for sure agree with you and you make a lot of valid points here. But honestly most of what I see in the current industry is heavily sexualized but not a lot of actual sexism per se. Like this whole massive controversy around Quiet because her boobs and ass are out. Kojima ia a hetero male and he found that look attractive so he designed it that way. That isn't sexist. In fact so far that character is a complete bad ass killing machine. And yet there is still contoversy around it.

But yes if a game designer made a game calling women worthless / pathetic / only useful for sex then they should be humiliated. I just dont see much of that now days. Just a lot of over sexualized design which there is nothing inherently wrong with.

Edit - I actually just saw the insult / assumption you made about me despite having no clue who I am or what my beliefs are. I did not do that to you. Try to be respectful.

Again my entire point here is there seems to be a lot of fabricated anger at sexism when most of what I'm seeing is highly sexualized design. What major games are coming out showing women as weak or worthless or only usefull for sex?

 

[hurricanes]

Well, you are discriminating other people cultures and social norms by not acknowledging that there are other fictional creations that are subjected to those people.
You can't just blanket everything with one ideology of equality and norms for these works of fiction.
They are created by humans, yes, but they are all created differently.
The ME will view ours norms as weird, and we will in turn view theirs as outdated.
Thus, their works of fiction will have a lot of differences from ours.

That's why criticism exist, to provide opinion, to provide different prospects, to provide suggestion, so one could examine his/her work and make improvement.

 

[v0yce]

Unfortunately for you, you seem to not understand that racist, sexist literature isn't just about harming the ink on the page but about reinforcing the idea that genders and races should be treated as less than. When questioned on your stance of racist/sexist literature you only seem to think of porn.

Do you think violent games cause violent behavior too?

But yes if a game designer made a game calling women worthless / pathetic / only useful for sex then they should be humiliated. I just dont see much of that now days. Just a lot of over sexualized design which there is nothing inherently wrong with.

This seems missed by a lot on the other side of the argument. There seems to be a narrow sexualized = sexist mindset.

 

[MikeOfTheLivingDead]

The argument is more nuanced than being against sex, it's about wanting to see women in different roles. But sure keep the argument as "prudes vs the rest of us" in order to totally avoid any introspection of the games and their lack of decent representation of the female gender.

It is nuanced, and really my point is, if you want to advocate for more inclusive games, results will be better if you advocate for those games without attacking the creators and consumers of work you deem offensive. Any nuance is lost in the current witch hunt that's taking place. Right now the discussion is just ridiculous. Really, I see the product of the game industry being more inclusive now than ever. Sure it has a way to go, but more flys with honey and all that, the road there isn't paved with labeling creators and consumers misogynists, trying to make them feel ashamed for liking a little sex on the side with their violence and essentially demanding companies invest millions in games with risky concepts in the name of social responsibility rather than what they know will turn a profit. If proponents of progressive ideas can't or won't make big investments in their own games either by making them or funding them, don't en masse support people who are making progressive games by purchasing them, and demonize the developers making games that offend their sensibilities and the people who play them, they'll find they really don't have anywhere to go, and 5 years from now we'll just see further polarized arguments about GTAVII and the proliferation of VR porn with little progress having been made.

 

[way more]

This seems missed by a lot on the other side of the argument. There seems to be a narrow sexualized = sexist mindset.

It was missed because he is the first one to make the argument that sexulaization does not equal sexist. Prior to that people were accusing anyone who disliked sexism in video games of being scared of sex.

I don't think violent video games cause violence. Does it glorify it, often yes.

 

[Ratrat]

Porn is outright objectifying the human body. With real people. Is porn morally wrong and evil? And if so should we look down on it and try to remove it from society? Because there is nothing as purely objectifying as porn.

People need to understand taking pleasure in the anatomy of sex is a biological characteristic and at times yes objectifying is not bad. Twilight outright objectifies the male body for female fantasy and I think things like that are great and should be encouraged.

There is more porn put there that caters to the tastes of women and gay men than video games. That is incredibly sad.

 

[gogosox82]

It is nuanced, and really my point is, if you want to advocate for more inclusive games, results will be better if you advocate for those games without attacking the creators and consumers of work you deem offensive. Any nuance is lost in the current witch hunt that's taking place. Right now the discussion is just ridiculous.

No one is being attacked here unless the mere thought that someone say their may be wrong with female representation in games is offensive.

Really, I see the product of the game industry being more inclusive now than ever. Sure it has a way to go, but more flys with honey and all that, the road there isn't paved with labeling creators and consumers misogynists, trying to make them feel ashamed for liking a little sex on the side with their violence and essentially demanding companies invest millions in games with risky concepts in the name of social responsibility rather than what they know will turn a profit.

So your admitting that they know what they are doing is wrong but they do it anyway b/c $$$? And why couldn't they make a game staring female character be more appealing? Or Hell, at least have more female leads on the team to balance out the team so it not just a bunch of dudes making these decisions who may not take into consideration how a woman might react to it. I also wouldn't be ashamed of the work I did regardless of how others felt about if I did the work in good faith. If devs feel ashamed then it isn't because a few women said they didn't like their game, its b/c they know their designs are fucked but they did it anyway for the $$$ like you said.

If proponents of progressive ideas can't or won't make big investments in their own games either by making them or funding them, don't en masse support people who are making progressive games by purchasing them, and demonize the developers making games that offend their sensibilities and the people who play them, they'll find they really don't have anywhere to go, and 5 years from now we'll just see further polarized arguments about GTAVII and the proliferation of VR porn with little progress having been made.

So what you saying here is that women should get $30-40 million together to fund some AAA game that features strong women in them and they can't they should STFU about it? And female devs do fund their own games quite a bit but they are mostly ignored and not taken seriously expect for a few. So how exactly would anything change under what your advocating? I see absolutely nothing wrong with doing both. Developing their own games and also being critical of how women are protrayed in games.

 

[SmokyDave]

There is more porn put there that caters to the tastes of women and gay men than video games. That is incredibly sad.

People that enjoy porn massively outnumber people that enjoy videogames.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

People that enjoy porn massively outnumber people that enjoy videogames.

People that enjoy porn massively outnumbers any other form of entertainment, probably.

 

[SmokyDave]

People that enjoy porn massively outnumbers any other form of entertainment, probably.

Your name, dude. Your name. Fitting.

 

[MikeOfTheLivingDead]

No one is being attacked here unless the mere thought that someone say their may be wrong with female representation in games is offensive.

You can insist no one is being attacked, but there are a large number of game players and developers who feel like they are being attacked. There's a lot of talk about empathy in these threads, perhaps you can exercise some and try to understand why these people feel attacked instead of dismissing them. I'm all for criticism of the content of games, but these arguments often go way past that. I don't personally feel under attack, but I do understand why some might.

So your admitting that they know what they are doing is wrong but they do it anyway b/c $$$? And why couldn't they make a game staring female character be more appealing? Or Hell, at least have more female leads on the team to balance out the team so it not just a bunch of dudes making these decisions who may not take into consideration how a woman might react to it. I also wouldn't be ashamed of the work I did regardless of how others felt about if I did the work in good faith. If devs feel ashamed then it isn't because a few women said they didn't like their game, its b/c they know their designs are fucked but they did it anyway for the $$$ like you said.

I admit no such thing. I don't think it's wrong to pander to the lowest common denominator to make the largest profit possible as long as laws aren't being broken. I don't think creating a titillating avatar out of polygons and pixels is a crime against humanity or women. These devs and publishers don't need to justify their decisions to anyone except their investors. People will either support their games by buying them, or they won't. Looking at every creative decision through the lens of "who might be offended by this" is a sure fire way to ensure stagnation and creative death. We might as well have nothing but variations of Pong if that's the filter we want to apply to game design decisions. In fact, I'd push hard in the other direction as I stated earlier in the thread and support developers who have offensive ideas. Offensive is interesting. Offensive gets people talking and thinking. I don't think developers are often if ever ashamed of their games no matter what the internet has to say, and because of that I think pursuing a tactic of trying to make them feel ashamed about their products to effect change is a losing proposition. All this does is alienate people from your cause, people you need to support you.

So what you saying here is that women should get $30-40 million together to fund some AAA game that features strong women in them and they can't they should STFU about it? And female devs do fund their own games quite a bit but they are mostly ignored and not taken seriously expect for a few. So how exactly would anything change under what your advocating? I see absolutely nothing wrong with doing both. Developing their own games and also being critical of how women are protrayed in games.

Yep but I'm not telling anyone to STFU. I'm saying the current approach of being critical isn't going to work. You can talk all you want, but publishers aren't going to respond to criticism unless it effects their bottom line. This is a "show me" situation.

What I see as the real goal here is for AAA Devs and publishers to be more inclusive and make the same sorts of investments in progressive games or progressive decisions that they make in even their mid-tier bro-gamer efforts. Let's be honest, swapping a gender or making a character LBGT in almost any current blockbuster game isn't going to satisfy. What's needed are games that are created from the ground up on progressive ideas.

There are devs who will build these progressive games, and there are big publishers who will support them, but only if they think the money is there. They aren't going to do it out of the goodness of their heart, and anything sympathetic any large publisher or developer has to say in the face of criticism is just lip service until they know there is money to be made. They need to be shown this, and talk and petitions aren't going to show them anything.

Starcitizen raised something like 60 million dollars through crowd funding efforts so you aren't going to convince me it's impossible or even very difficult to get together 10-30 million dollars to fund a progressive game that looks and plays as well as Bayonetta 2. I mean, fuck, as much good press as Bayonetta is getting, there aren't enough fans out there to justify it's existence. The first one didn't do that well, and it's pretty tone deaf to put out a game like this given the current climate in the industry, for the WiiU no less. Failure is written all over it. Really, the only reason it got made I think was because Nintendo needed to reach a "broader" audience and be more "inclusive" (gasp, it goes both ways). If someone was willing to throw away millions making sure Bayonetta 2 got made, certainly some motivated industrious people can figure out how to raise money for a AAA progressive game, or a studio completely staffed by underrepresented voices or whatever they deem the best first major step is.

I'm buying Bayonetta 2, by the way, despite everything I said about it being destined to fail

 

[Duster]

the world isn't fair. someone born in an african country is much more likely to suffer in life and live in poverty than someone born in the us. and that's just taking in consideration their birthplace. which isn't to say the world is unfair and people aren't allowed to wish for change, but it's easy to fight for "social justice" when you live a privileged life in a first world country and the injustices are people harassing you online or you not being able to play a videogame with a character that represents you as well as you'd like

i mean, if you wanted to say, i defend this and that because it affects people close to me and people i care about, ok. but you are not "fighting" for the fairness factor. there are much bigger "fairness" problems in the world than videogame protagonists not being gay/women/black/fat/whatever

Yeah it's unfair those Africans may be living in countries where gay acts are illegal and can be punishable by life in prison or death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa

It's unfair that gay and lesbian people suffer corrective rapes even in countries like South Africa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrective_rape

Giving gay teens the chance to see there's nothing wrong with them or changing attitudes through representation in any medium seems a good goal to me.

I think some of the arguments can get silly but it's in no way just a first world problem (although I appreciate you didn't used that stupid meme phrase).

 

[Prophet Steve]

Sure, it's pretty simple, really:

If I were that person, would I rationally decide that that outfit is a good idea to wear?

Amazingly, a LOT of developers never even think about this question; they just stick their female characters in bizarre metal bikinis, give them boob plate, cleavage windows, etc., etc. purely for the sake of male (and homosexual female) eye candy without even giving it a second a thought. There are so many uncomfortable, impractical, or downright stupid outfits made explicitly for sex appeal out there that it's mind-boggling.

Now, with Bayonetta in particular, she's actually a fairly well-realized character in terms of owning her own sexuality and having a rational reason to have skin showing. It's so ridiculous and over-the-top that it's hard for me to take it even halfway seriously.

Most other depictions, however, are not so forgivable. Any time I see boob plate, cleavage windows, a random piece of armor missing, or... well, hell, just go look at female armor bingo to see the many absurd varieties of transgression there are against female characters and their outfits. Pretty sad, really. We still have quite a ways to go in this regard.

Er... no. No, they don't.

This whole post is remarkably regressive and insecure.

This is pretty much what I think. It makes sense for Bayonetta and I feel it also makes sense for Kainé in Nier. But I am having trouble of other well-realized characters that should be wearing super revealing clothing.

 

[Nocturnal]

Will this ever end?
What is the problem if I want to play a game with a dark, sick plot/atmosphere? I'm sure it totally makes me a disgusting person IRL.

Man, I just want to play games... stop crossing games and IRL social problems.
It's getting fucking annoying.

 

[JaggedSac]

This is one thing that always confused me in the case of when they wouldn't. Who decided at a development team that it was a good idea to do it. I mean when you think about the fact someone actually had to go out of their way to say such a design should be there in comparison to normal clothes, it's more creepy than anything else.

And then people cosplay it.

 

[DSix]

The truth is I don't give a flying fuck.

It's like objectified women in comic books, it's dumb and for a dumb teenager audience, but ultimately harmless as teens grow up and get to have real relationships.
If in a particular case I really don't like it, I would just play another game and move on. It always go hand in hand with bad writing, so I wouldn't miss out on anything good really.

I feel this whole debacle is more about those journalists feeling shame and insecurity about themselves and the games they chose to consume.

 

[freddy]

The answer is not to cry and censor what you don't like but create what you do like. Make the world the way you want it to be. If you can't create then support. Tearing down harmless things you don't like isn't the answer.

 

[vato_loco]

I completely understand why people would make such a big deal about female characters in gaming, and how they are usually portrayed.... and they really shouldn't.

See, there's a thing with (way too many) people who seem to understand that if a female character is portrayed in a very sexy fashion, then she turns into an object, a decoration meant to be stared at. It doesn't even matter if the character is some NPC in a corner or the very protagonist of the game (the difference being that the NPC is there to play a specific and unique role, while the protagonist is meant to have more of a personality, her sexuality being part of it). That in itself would be wrong enough, but some people can and will take that to the real life.

Let's say some dude with very questionable moral integrity starts playing Lollipop Chainsaw. He enjoys Juliet's ample cleavage and may even "talk" to her dirty while playing. Then let's say this dude goes to a videogame convention or anywhere else where cosplayers roam about, and he sees a pretty little blonde girl in a Juliet costume. Dude may very well be compelled to approach her and start talking to her in an inappropiate manner, making her unconfortable for no reason. I mean, why not, right? She chose to dress up like that slutty Juliet, so she MUST want the D! She couldn't possibly dress up like her because, oh I don't know, she enjoyed the character, or the game, or the design, no sir. I really wish I was exaggerating, but every single cosplayer can attest to this behaviour.

The fact that people like that exist in this world, and that fact is unquestionable, doesn't mean that developers aim at them when they create sexy female characters. There IS such a thing as a male who can enjoy a female body and then go about his life being absolutely normal. I am one of them. I confess, I do love me some metal bikini. I love the hell out of Dead or Alive 5. I loved the bathing scene in Parasite Eve 2, and even though it was shoehorned because of fan demand, I also enjoyed the new shower scene in The 3rd Birthday. I couldn't understand why they would reduce the size of Lara Croft's breasts in the Tomb Raider reboot because they "wanted to keep it more realistic", as if large breasted women were some kind of chimera. I played Lollipop Chainsaw a lot because I wanted to get all the skins, including the ridiculously revealing ones. I broke my "no DLC" rule because I thought it would be cool to have Kasumi fight in a bikini (I was wrong, by the way).

But at the end of the day, I respect women, I believe in feminism (the "women are equal to men" feminism, not the "tax the men more because penis" feminism), and I don't mind when my GF drools at Kratos because I know she doesn't think I should look like him, the same way I don't expect her to look like Bayonetta.

I know that games have a long way to go. But censoring something or protesting something because some maladjusted people are twisting it is not the way to go. This may sound a bit crass, but women enjoy well written female characters. Men do too. And boobs, we like boobs. Place a strong, well-written female character in a metal bikini and I'll enjoy her. Place her in a full-body armor and guess what? I'll still enjoy her. I'll also wonder what she looks like in a metal bikini, mind you.

 

[li bur]

Guys I'm a bit of an ignorant and idiot in this issue, I live in a country where gender equality isn't a very common issue (though sexuality is such a big deal since most of the people are muslim).

I'm curios though whether Marcus Fenix and his peers in gears of war are considered as over-sexualized man? I mean they were the very definitions of MASCULINITY OVERLOAD, are those also considered over-sexualized?

 

[thesolidshark]

I don't think I have a line. I kind of hope I haven't used slut-shaming on a vg character.

You can insist no one is being attacked, but there are a large number of game players and developers who feel like they are being attacked. There's a lot of talk about empathy in these threads, perhaps you can exercise some and try to understand why these people feel attacked instead of dismissing them. I'm all for criticism of the content of games, but these arguments often go way past that. I don't personally feel under attack, but I do understand why some might.




I admit no such thing. I don't think it's wrong to pander to the lowest common denominator to make the largest profit possible as long as laws aren't being broken. I don't think creating a titillating avatar out of polygons and pixels is a crime against humanity or women. These devs and publishers don't need to justify their decisions to anyone except their investors. People will either support their games by buying them, or they won't. Looking at every creative decision through the lens of "who might be offended by this" is a sure fire way to ensure stagnation and creative death. We might as well have nothing but variations of Pong if that's the filter we want to apply to game design decisions. In fact, I'd push hard in the other direction as I stated earlier in the thread and support developers who have offensive ideas. Offensive is interesting. Offensive gets people talking and thinking. I don't think developers are often if ever ashamed of their games no matter what the internet has to say, and because of that I think pursuing a tactic of trying to make them feel ashamed about their products to effect change is a losing proposition. All this does is alienate people from your cause, people you need to support you.



Yep but I'm not telling anyone to STFU. I'm saying the current approach of being critical isn't going to work. You can talk all you want, but publishers aren't going to respond to criticism unless it effects their bottom line. This is a "show me" situation.

What I see as the real goal here is for AAA Devs and publishers to be more inclusive and make the same sorts of investments in progressive games or progressive decisions that they make in even their mid-tier bro-gamer efforts. Let's be honest, swapping a gender or making a character LBGT in almost any current blockbuster game isn't going to satisfy. What's needed are games that are created from the ground up on progressive ideas.

There are devs who will build these progressive games, and there are big publishers who will support them, but only if they think the money is there. They aren't going to do it out of the goodness of their heart, and anything sympathetic any large publisher or developer has to say in the face of criticism is just lip service until they know there is money to be made. They need to be shown this, and talk and petitions aren't going to show them anything.

Starcitizen raised something like 60 million dollars through crowd funding efforts so you aren't going to convince me it's impossible or even very difficult to get together 10-30 million dollars to fund a progressive game that looks and plays as well as Bayonetta 2. I mean, fuck, as much good press as Bayonetta is getting, there aren't enough fans out there to justify it's existence. The first one didn't do that well, and it's pretty tone deaf to put out a game like this given the current climate in the industry, for the WiiU no less. Failure is written all over it. Really, the only reason it got made I think was because Nintendo needed to reach a "broader" audience and be more "inclusive" (gasp, it goes both ways). If someone was willing to throw away millions making sure Bayonetta 2 got made, certainly some motivated industrious people can figure out how to raise money for a AAA progressive game, or a studio completely staffed by underrepresented voices or whatever they deem the best first major step is.

I'm buying Bayonetta 2, by the way, despite everything I said about it being destined to fail

I really like this post, especially the bolded parts. I'm definitely more on the pushing of/highlighting positivity to breed more of it belief. Nothing wrong with criticism about things, but it can be hard to believe negativity will be received as well as positivity. There's enough negativity to go around on literally any subject, including representation, that positivity can stand out.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

You can't compare a societal view on how women, as people, behave to a media critique about how designers overwhelmingly choose to represent women.

Implying people are uneasy with systematically sexualized depictions of women because they're prudes is an insulting and silly ad hominem that misses the point.

You are conflating two different idealogical scales;
- prudishness is one scale
- sexism is another

Finding all sexual references or all nudity in a game uncomfortable is prudishness.

But if, say, you would find a main character saying "Suck my dick!" as a taunt to an enemy fine in the contexts of the game, but a female character saying "Lick my pussy!" as a taunt to be crossing a line, think carefully about what that says about your own standards of appropriateness and what is and isn't acceptable behaviour for women to exhibit.

We are comparing depictions of Sexualization to racism now.......

Man we really have an unhealthy view of sex and the human body in modern culture. Its actually scary how we got here

What is the difference between sexism and racism other than the target of the prejudice?

 

[IAmRandom31]

Guys I'm a bit of an ignorant and idiot in this issue, I live in a country where gender equality isn't a very common issue (though sexuality is such a big deal since most of the people are muslim).

I'm curios though whether Marcus Fenix and his peers in gears of war are considered as over-sexualized man? I mean they were the very definitions of MASCULINITY OVERLOAD, are those also considered over-sexualized?

Hmmmm...

Not really because those types are military. And being in a military family, can pretty safely tell you that you will find types like what you see in the Space Marine type games in the military. Very large, very powerful, basic vocabulary especially when in the middle of a battle, very dedicated, etc.

My main issue is usually with the armor women wear in games. You'll be in the middle of a war with your entire midsection exposed to the elements and such like that. Lara Croft for example is out in the middle of a jungle wearing short shorts. Never made too much sense to me ( could be accurate though, who knows ). But most especially war games with women who are scantily clad with almost no protection. That is when the whole purpose is pretty transparent.

We'll see what the story ends up being behind Quiet in MGS5. But the look of her is pretty blatant.

We live in a world though that constantly tells you all day that sex sells so .... yeh

 

[Storm360]

Eh, I don't care about what a character wears, same with I don't care about the gender or anything

I just want to have fun with the gameplay, if the gameplay is good, the rest of it's not that important to me

 

[Lime]

I come back and I still see people using the "censorship" bullshit and "if you criticize something sexual, you're a prude" and "I am not a sexist for playing sexist video games"

It's super tiring.

 

[ozfunghi]

SmokyDave with with a moderately smart argument. Now i've seen it all.

It's very simple really, i see games as a form of art, just like music, paintings, movies... That means who ever creates them, should be free to follow their vision. If that means putting women in chains in the kitchen, then they should be free to do so. I advise people who are offended by such games, to simply not buy these games and i hope that the age ratings do their work.

Furthermore, people are free to discuss the morality of such games. They also are free to speak their minds. If you are annoyed by their view, prude or no, simply stop reading this topic, just like they should stop buying such games. But they also should be free to do so.

Personally, i think there's a fine line between objectification and worshiping. Art has been made since the dawn of time, were you can argue woman being objectified and worshiped at the same time. Hell, i even do this with the mother of my two children, who has legs Bayonetta wishes she had. In fact, i think objectification is a form of worship, or at least in many cases can be. Maybe it's not always about reducing women to tits & ass, but about "highlighting" the features that make them unique, what makes them women to begin with.

Anyway, when my girl and me go out, she knows she won't be wearing baggy pants. Sue me. And before the argument is raised, that it's ok, to be wearing short skirts, high heels, a dress with an open back and cleavage when you go out for a party or other social events, let me ask you: why is it socially accepted to wear such clothes to a party, but not to work? And to jump back into videogames, should it matter that the characters profession is a sniper, or a dragonwarrior? I don't think so, but i do feel, that if your dragonwarrior wears nothing but metal plates on her nipples and a chainmail thong, that she is the first to die in battle... unless ofcourse she has divine powers. But ofcourse, what real woman has devine powers?

Spoiler

Mine does.