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Game character ethnicities/sex - Where do you draw the line between anti-woke and racist pushback?
- Thread starter atyourservice
- Start date
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
Adam Sessler was making a big fuss over it so if I remember correctly it was him who brought it to attention. He went on and on and on and rambled about it back in the day. That and his bitching about a God of War trophy was pretty much his downfall and I think sort of the start of this whole mess that's happening.
LectureMaster
Gold Member
Where to draw the line?
Well, I say the top surgery scar would be a clear line.
It's very simple - can the developers give genuine and reasonable explanations of their design decisions, instead of acting condescending and preaching:"diversity is panacea!!!"
Also, really don't like the equating "both sides" thing, because one is the repercussion of the other. Go for the root cause.
Well, I say the top surgery scar would be a clear line.
It's very simple - can the developers give genuine and reasonable explanations of their design decisions, instead of acting condescending and preaching:"diversity is panacea!!!"
Also, really don't like the equating "both sides" thing, because one is the repercussion of the other. Go for the root cause.
nikolino840
Member
If they wanted realism why they speak english tho? If the devs says there wasn't black bc they wanted realism seems absurd that characters speak english
Moriarty1889
Member
It seems as if every game coming out is pushing an agenda anymore. Usually woke and filled with feminist or radical ideologies that they openly push and force into every game. Women are made ugly and unattractive and race swapping has become the norm for many mainstream titles as well. The industry is skewed to represent women and minorities mostly anymore. That is an uneven balance already. Perhaps oneday things will even out and the constant agenda driven shite being pushed will die off. One can hope.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Once a game company has any of the following, you know it can be a bad sign:
- SBI
- First things they show include DEI stuff (pronouns or the company rep promoting the game is an obvious LBQTB worker which you already know the game will have that as part of the story once they show the YT clips)
- Studio employees rant and rave on social media about race or white people are bad, or bring their personal life crisis politics into a game
- Purposely adjusting the game (or tv show/movie) from past white characters to now be women or minorities
- Most gamers are going to be white or male (unless it's something like puzzle or Sims genres which skew women), and Asian made games often more Asian gamers. Yet the game's cast is mostly neither, or it's disproportionately other ethnic backgrounds or women where you can tell it's forced it to hit a ratio like 1 white, 1 black, 1 asian, 50/50 men women. Or purposely overrepresenting smaller groups of people
- Interestingly, despite oddly forced in ratio splits, game studios still ignore Latinos, native Indians and East Indians where they are almost never in games unless the Latino person is a GTA thug or some indie game where the Indian person is stereotyped as an obvious Indian
- Making absurd plotlines like in that BF game where a mother and daughter team busted enemy nuts like they are both Rambo in a real life WWII event
- Streamers pick up on the obvious political nature of the game and rag on it for laughs before the game is even launched
- SBI
- First things they show include DEI stuff (pronouns or the company rep promoting the game is an obvious LBQTB worker which you already know the game will have that as part of the story once they show the YT clips)
- Studio employees rant and rave on social media about race or white people are bad, or bring their personal life crisis politics into a game
- Purposely adjusting the game (or tv show/movie) from past white characters to now be women or minorities
- Most gamers are going to be white or male (unless it's something like puzzle or Sims genres which skew women), and Asian made games often more Asian gamers. Yet the game's cast is mostly neither, or it's disproportionately other ethnic backgrounds or women where you can tell it's forced it to hit a ratio like 1 white, 1 black, 1 asian, 50/50 men women. Or purposely overrepresenting smaller groups of people
- Interestingly, despite oddly forced in ratio splits, game studios still ignore Latinos, native Indians and East Indians where they are almost never in games unless the Latino person is a GTA thug or some indie game where the Indian person is stereotyped as an obvious Indian
- Making absurd plotlines like in that BF game where a mother and daughter team busted enemy nuts like they are both Rambo in a real life WWII event
- Streamers pick up on the obvious political nature of the game and rag on it for laughs before the game is even launched
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Fess
Member
Comes from previous witch hunts online in the wake of the me too movement, even if that noise is mostly gone now people are still careful to avoid the blood hounds. And it’s a constant clash of cultures online so it’s not easy to know when you can truly go unfiltered.
Nickolaidas
Member
Agreed.
What we are experiencing culturally, is the equivalent of say, having a girlfriend, and five years ago, she gave a guy a flirty look. I see it, it hardly registers in my mind. She wants to feel flirty, that's it. But in the last two years, she cheated me three times. And now, the second I see her eyeing a guy, I immediately think she wants to fuck him the second I look the other way.
Context matters. After witnessing three times a dozen of race/gender swaps, and the devs proudly saying why they do it and what they think of the straight white male audience (and white people in general), many of us have become ultra-sensitive to ANY sign of a dev team doing something which could be interpreted as an 'attack' on straight white people (males in particular).
It is sad and ironic that through the culture war, the devs did the exact opposite of what they wanted to do. They made people more intolerant than ever.
So yeah, I also think that if AC Shadows happened 12 years ago, no one would be giving a single fuck.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
I just play games bro. If it’s shit, it’s shit. Woke or not, if you focus on either in your development, it’ll end up being a shit game.
Examples:
Concord
Stellar Blade
Dragon Age Veilguard
Black Myth Wukong
All 4 of these are on the same level to me. Focus on visuals and have awful gameplay. Of the ones above I actually think concord had the best gameplay but it had a myriad of other issues that buried the game and gunplay lol.
Examples:
Concord
Stellar Blade
Dragon Age Veilguard
Black Myth Wukong
All 4 of these are on the same level to me. Focus on visuals and have awful gameplay. Of the ones above I actually think concord had the best gameplay but it had a myriad of other issues that buried the game and gunplay lol.
hououinkyouma00
Member
I really only draw the line where it’s obvious that it’s inclusion simple for the sake of inclusion.
If you have a character of a certain race/gender/sexuality because it actually fits into the story naturally then I don’t care. I’m not some retard that automatically discounts something like Ghost of Yotei because it had a female protagonist.
Luckily this is usually pretty easy to spot.
If you have a character of a certain race/gender/sexuality because it actually fits into the story naturally then I don’t care. I’m not some retard that automatically discounts something like Ghost of Yotei because it had a female protagonist.
Luckily this is usually pretty easy to spot.
Nickolaidas
Member
Dude, I know you are entitled to your opinion, but putting Stellar Blade and Concord as mutual examples of shitty games - as well as Veilguard and Concord is practically blasphemy.
I think what hurt Yotei was the person they hired as VA, rather than the game character itself.
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Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
*shrug* A bad game is a bad game lol. I’ve played all 4.
Most of GAF hasn’t, and I doubt most of gaf who says stellar blade or black myth are good have even beaten them or played them.
Sure you can enjoy the first 10 hours but if it doesn’t have lasting appeal then it’s rubbish. Most games nowadays are front loaded and after a bit fall off a cliff.
It’s just an opinion. At least I agree that forspoken is a turd unlike some valued members. Lmao
rofif
hououinkyouma00
Member
What do you consider good games if all four of those aren’t?*shrug* A bad game is a bad game lol. I’ve played all 4.
Most of GAF hasn’t, and I doubt most of gaf who says stellar blade or black myth are good have even beaten them or played them.
Sure you can enjoy the first 10 hours but if it doesn’t have lasting appeal then it’s rubbish. Most games nowadays are front loaded and after a bit fall off a cliff.
It’s just an opinion. At least I agree that forspoken is a turd unlike some valued members. Lmao
I’m not saying I agree or disagree but I’m just curious.
diffusionx
Gold Member
nice goal post moving.
Fess
Member
Yeah, but it’s natural, nobody want to be preached on things they don’t really care about and have stuff pushed down their throat unwillingly. Goes for race stuff, lgbbqtv content, religions, politics, whatever you can imagine. There is always a pushback.
But this time people were scared to criticize the pushed agendas through fear of online harassment and having their life ruined by some angry person with no life online. It went too far. So the awakening and general pushback through people simply not buying content with an agenda is very nice to see imo. Target a small minority. Sell to a small minority. Target a large majority. Sell to a large majority. The balance is returning.
hououinkyouma00
Member
I didn’t really pay attention to the VA because I try not to look for things to be upset about which I think a lot of people do (not saying you btw). Just like a lot of the ultra liberal folk try to find things to be upset about a lot of the inverse also try to find things to be upset about.
If the game is good then the game is good. As long as the writing doesn’t end up being terrible I’m good.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
In general or just 2024?
2024 I really enjoyed silent hill 2 remake.
In general some good games from various genres:
Cyberpunk 2077
Resident evil 4 remake
13 sentinels
Disco Elysium
Persona 4
Chrono trigger
Gran Turismo 7
Diablo 2
Street fighter 4
Dota 2
Metal gear solid 2
Ninja gaiden 2
Devil may cry 3
Bloodborne
Elden Ring
That should be a good enough list to see a variety of things I think are great.
EruditeHobo
Member
There's TONS of ham-fisted characterization in narrative media that has precisely nothing to do with "wokeness". But no one ever blames an agenda for that.
In other words, it's a case-by-case basis, obviously. For anyone to react to any of this in a kneejerk, blanket way IMO says more about them than it does "wokeness in gaming" or whatever.
In other words, it's a case-by-case basis, obviously. For anyone to react to any of this in a kneejerk, blanket way IMO says more about them than it does "wokeness in gaming" or whatever.
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nikolino840
Member
Times ago i have seen article about tlou2 that druckman preaching Israel agenda...
The Not So Hidden Israeli Politics of 'The Last of Us Part II'
'The Last of Us Part II' presents what at first seems like an evenhanded point of view, but perpetuates the very cycles of violence it's supposedly so troubled by.
www.vice.com
So...having an agenda isn't so bad...do you have idea how many copies have sold tlou2 and how many prizes have won?
Nickolaidas
Member
Oh, for the love of -
No one has a problem with games like Concord and Dustborn being made - sure, people make FUN of said games, but no one's losing any sleep with Concord being made.
The problem is when wokeness infects IPs it has literally no business with. People don't care if Barbie is woke feminist bruhaha, they care when Star Wars gets woke. Or Marvel. Or DC. Or Star Trek. Or He-Man. You know, BOY brands.
Make all the Wicked, Barbie, Concords and Dustborns that you want. Just stay the fuck away from Resident Evil, Spider-Man, James Bond, Conan, etc.
That's what people are saying.
xVodevil
Member
This! I always wonder when they push this narrative, okay plenty more examples on movie side but still for the same (as far as I'm concerned games would always have a way more easier job)
Like wtf is Ripley in Alien and Sarah Connor in Terminator? For a simple and easy example as "clearly" there were no badass female protagonists before current times..
If you watch tons of movies 80-90's but even 70's.. everything is there they want today, I am quite often surprised actually. Yet none of it feels forced. Most often than not they just wanna steal spotlight or hijack franchises, than actually doing the work and make good stories and fitting characters. It's just such trash when you realize it was all there already and suddenly it needs to be forced in without care to ruin whatever good could come out of it.
Fess
Member
A lot has happened in 4 years regarding a pushback, I doubt it would’ve been praised by as many users today, it was divisive enough in 2020. Media is still laser focused to push the agenda though so review scores and awards would’ve been the same. And likewise I expect good scores for Avowed just like with Veilguard. The pushback is almost entirely done among users so far.Times ago i have seen article about tlou2 that druckman preaching Israel agenda...
The Not So Hidden Israeli Politics of 'The Last of Us Part II'
'The Last of Us Part II' presents what at first seems like an evenhanded point of view, but perpetuates the very cycles of violence it's supposedly so troubled by.
So...having an agenda isn't so bad...do you have idea how many copies have sold tlou2 and how many prizes have won?
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Kenneth Haight
Gold Member
poodaddy &
Kenneth Haight
The sexual tension in here is making me hard bros. How do we all make out?
How I feel.
Wait, isn't what I said woke? And gay?I'm cooked.
poodaddy
and I have had another talk and cleaned the thread up accordingly.This is why GAF is a good place, once you get a bit beneath the surface with someone 99% of people here are good. It was a misunderstanding and we have both won a new friend.
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EruditeHobo
Member
Sooner or later you'll realize this is how culture works, and if you think your special pet project or property is immune... I've got really bad news: it never belonged to you in the way you think it did.
And hey, maybe they'll change it too much and it will flop! Then you can celebrate. But just don't ask anyone that doesn't really care to not consider it really petty and beneath you... since you are (presumably) an adult.
It's fucking hilarious that you cited Spider-Man though... as if there weren't a million people pissed off they made "Spider-Man" a black kid. Just further reveals the level of selectivity at play in these kinds of "arguments".
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PixelatedBeast
Member
I knew this whole woke or anti-woke agenda shit got out of hand when he Kingdomcome devs were lauded for saying " go make your own game if you want to see black people in it". Then when a game is made based on African culture like The Tales of Kenzura, people say its woke, sweetbabayinc infested, etc....
There are games with terrible writting without diversity, so people pretending that games need to have the writing of an Oscar winning film to accept a diverst cast is so disengenous when a game like Stalker 2 can sell a million in a day, or a game like Elden Ring can sell 20 million in a year. People are willing to look past the writting for select games, but if it has a protagonist of a gender or ethnicity they dont like, then their way of hiding their bigotry is by saying the writting is too poor for them to enjoy other aspects. The story only becomes the focus when its a diverst cast, but when it an all white, or all male game, the poor writing is forgivable and the other element of the game are proped up over it.
There are games with terrible writting without diversity, so people pretending that games need to have the writing of an Oscar winning film to accept a diverst cast is so disengenous when a game like Stalker 2 can sell a million in a day, or a game like Elden Ring can sell 20 million in a year. People are willing to look past the writting for select games, but if it has a protagonist of a gender or ethnicity they dont like, then their way of hiding their bigotry is by saying the writting is too poor for them to enjoy other aspects. The story only becomes the focus when its a diverst cast, but when it an all white, or all male game, the poor writing is forgivable and the other element of the game are proped up over it.
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RoboFu
One of the green rats
Does nobody else see that this is only one sided questioning trying to associate anti woke and racism or is it just me?
Like where does the racism come from? That new assassins creed game? More people are upset that you don't play a Japanese character than that the lead character is black .. that's not racism.
You know what is racist.. publicly proclaiming you are not going to use white males in something because white males are bad. Which is the main party line for the woke. Having little kids cartoons and games that do not have white male kids and the few that do they are super feminine, evil, or subservient.. that's racist.
Being anti woke is being against racism not the other way around.
Are there racists comments out there ? Of course.. but that doesn't group even together. In fact that's one of biggest issues of the woke. They brought back generalization and segregation.
Like where does the racism come from? That new assassins creed game? More people are upset that you don't play a Japanese character than that the lead character is black .. that's not racism.
You know what is racist.. publicly proclaiming you are not going to use white males in something because white males are bad. Which is the main party line for the woke. Having little kids cartoons and games that do not have white male kids and the few that do they are super feminine, evil, or subservient.. that's racist.
Being anti woke is being against racism not the other way around.
Are there racists comments out there ? Of course.. but that doesn't group even together. In fact that's one of biggest issues of the woke. They brought back generalization and segregation.
What's those that mean? Different populations do live in the same country sometimes close to each other, I don't know how you can have "forced inclusion," even if the interaction is negative that's still some kind of inclusion.
Most of the anti woke crowd will only be able to give vague qualifiers like ‘if it’s forced’ and then not even lift a finger when twitch chat explodes into WOKE/DEI the second a minority appears on screen. It’s why the whole movement is a bit of a joke. There’s zero self policing and desire to take an active stand against bigotry; something that is extremely telling of its functional goals as a social movement. The good people are largely being taken for a ride while the most regressive within the movement drive the bus and use them for cover and false legitimacy.
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IAmRei
Member
It is not immoral, per see. and might be nothing wrong if it's good. but look at these days, everything is forced, it's annoying, and You see the result, Japanese against ACS...
even what i've been mentioned before, it's very fine to play any race which game dev intended and chosen. but nowadays, it's different. because something that might be accepted, now is forced.
Doom85
Member
This person (not the Youtuber I linked, but the guy he was video responding with, I’m not linking the other guy and giving that shithead any views) is flat out pushing anti-woke ideals about the new Batman comic…….and then he has this objectively racist meltdown.
You are deluding yourself if you think the anti-woke movement doesn’t have some racist members among them. Do you honestly think people who have something against women, black, Latino/a, LGBT, are going to side with the woke movement?
Do you think that, perhaps, they’re more than happy to slip among the anti-woke and push those ideals if they believe it will result in less women, black, Latino/a, LGBT, etc. in their media?
If you live in the world where the only discrimination that exists is against men, white people, and straight people, sure, only the woke have racist people among them. Otherwise, if you live on planet Earth in the same dimension as the rest of us, COME ON NOW.
And don’t give me the “but he took it far!” No shit. There are woke people who simply push for diversity IN GENERAL but don’t attack specific creators, have meltdowns, etc. Just as there are anti-woke people who don’t do that either. Choosing to believe either side is all extremists is a narrow-minded point of view that does not reflect reality.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
This person (not the Youtuber I linked, but the guy he was video responding with, I’m not linking the other guy and giving that shithead any views) is flat out pushing anti-woke ideals about the new Batman comic…….and then he has this objectively racist meltdown.
You are deluding yourself if you think the anti-woke movement doesn’t have some racist members among them. Do you honestly think people who have something against women, black, Latino/a, LGBT, are going to side with the woke movement?
Do you think that, perhaps, they’re more than happy to slip among the anti-woke and push those ideals if they believe it will result in less women, black, Latino/a, LGBT, etc. in their media?
If you live in the world where the only discrimination that exists is against men, white people, and straight people, sure, only the woke have racist people among them. Otherwise, if you live on planet Earth in the same dimension as the rest of us, COME ON NOW.
And don’t give me the “but he took it far!” No shit. There are woke people who simply push for diversity IN GENERAL but don’t attack specific creators, have meltdowns, etc. Just as there are anti-woke people who don’t do that either. Choosing to believe either side is all extremists is a narrow-minded point of view that does not reflect reality.
So? Does he represent everyone? there's a big difference.
There is no "sort of woke" or woke adjacent .. it's a totalitarian ideology ..that's the difference I tried to explain.
You can be anti woke and not be racist .
You cannot be woke and not hate white males and that's racist.
Dei completely contradicts itself. Equity is not equality. And what's the final level of equity? What has to happen?
Doom85
Member
This is objectively false. That’s like saying only one major political group can be defined by the extremists who make up a portion of them. They are not. Far-left and alt-right are part of the left and right respectively for example, but one would have to be deluded to think they make up the entire or even the majority of either group.
Like, ironically enough, YOU’RE engaging in stereotyping right now despite claiming your side doesn’t have anyone who does that.
And way to prove my earlier point in the thread. People rolled their eyes when some woke people would overuse accusations of racism. But somehow, it’s “justified” when you casually accuse EVERYONE of the opposing viewpoint to be racist.
Same tactics, same fucking bullshit.
Wimbledon
Member
Imagine a games world that was similar to Berserk or what have you, and this game was beloved by many regardless of whatever background. Then out of nowhere have a group of people saying your racist, depictions of slavery of X group in this game is evil and made with malicious intent, Misogyny there slapping every ism known to man on it.
This made up game rose to relevance and many people loved it, now because this game is being called out. NOW it needs to change it needs to get rid of the elements that made that world REAL and engaging so they strip it down until its no longer recognizable. Now elements or features that no one complained about before are an issue now etc.
You can apply what I wrote above, to every major Trip A title at some point. But the reality is most people in the industry just don't share the same sensibilities as the creators did who made these games what they are.
Because of that difference in sensibilities everything the creators did must be changed in the eyes of the Woke crowd. That's where the line for me was drawn stop changing what doesn't need fixing.
If people still love these series as they are WITHOUT THEIR CHANGES, why are you changing them? Dragon Age Veilguard being a perfect example of this, they changed it....to me its dragon age in name only.
I'm just getting tired of the Fornite look, the guardians of the galaxy look/humor, the lack of real stakes, the safeness of how we depict certain characters/groups. It's really exhausting.
This made up game rose to relevance and many people loved it, now because this game is being called out. NOW it needs to change it needs to get rid of the elements that made that world REAL and engaging so they strip it down until its no longer recognizable. Now elements or features that no one complained about before are an issue now etc.
You can apply what I wrote above, to every major Trip A title at some point. But the reality is most people in the industry just don't share the same sensibilities as the creators did who made these games what they are.
Because of that difference in sensibilities everything the creators did must be changed in the eyes of the Woke crowd. That's where the line for me was drawn stop changing what doesn't need fixing.
If people still love these series as they are WITHOUT THEIR CHANGES, why are you changing them? Dragon Age Veilguard being a perfect example of this, they changed it....to me its dragon age in name only.
I'm just getting tired of the Fornite look, the guardians of the galaxy look/humor, the lack of real stakes, the safeness of how we depict certain characters/groups. It's really exhausting.
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ByWatterson
Member
I like how Spider-Man 2 shows us both paths.
Being Puerto Rican is a key part of Miles' character, so all of that texture fits and enriched the game.
Harry being a sudden environmental wannabe svaior is out of nowhere and feels weird. It doesn't ruin the game, but it's the kind of thing that would if they pushed it harder (see Dragon Age).
Being Puerto Rican is a key part of Miles' character, so all of that texture fits and enriched the game.
Harry being a sudden environmental wannabe svaior is out of nowhere and feels weird. It doesn't ruin the game, but it's the kind of thing that would if they pushed it harder (see Dragon Age).
Doom85
Member
Actually, Harry being concerned about the environment was pretty much the focus of all the Harry side quests in the first game with his Oscorp labs. Peter would have to do stuff with the lab tech and his Spidey tech to clean the air, water supply, etc.
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Radical_3d
Member
Surprised to see some fellow Eurogaffers here. This is mostly an American culture thing. I draw no lines. It the game is good the character can be any colour and have as many genders as it desires.
The difference with this is that none of it feels like pandering. Like ND or not this is 100% his artistic vision.
rabbity-thing
Member
Fahdis
Member
This is why GAF is a good place, once you get a bit beneath the surface with someone 99% of people here are good. It was a misunderstanding and we have both won a new friend.
Happy to hear brother
. Call me on your wedding you two 
Kagoshima_Luke
Gold Member
Anything like the above is a major turn off. I can more clearly imagine the writer(s) of this scene patting themselves on the back than I can suspend my disbelief that Cap Marvel needs 10 other women's help to move an object forward 200 yards.
Basically, if you can tell it's forced woke/DEI/girl power/whatever then it's a failure and is dragging the game or movie down.
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Nickolaidas
Member
Never said it's immune. I just said what they shouldn't do in order to not make their IPs tank.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I’m really hope you are joking.
EruditeHobo
Member
Raven117
Member
Made by a Japanese company… in a series that didn’t pride itself on lots (not all) historical accuracy, and always used a race of that region.And yet we didn't get anywhere near as much whining for Nioh or Nioh 2.....
Don’t be a moron. It’s different and you know it
Bojji
Member
And yet we didn't get anywhere near as much whining for Nioh or Nioh 2.....
Nioh 1 featured English man, and it was developed by Japanese developers (N2 has character creator).
It's also (loosely) based on story of William Adams (Shogun series as well):
Yasuke is historical as well but this coming from ignorant western developers? Japanese audience is not super happy about AC Shadows...
Cyberpunkd
Member
When it concerns ethnicity - there should be no pushback. If you are complaining about a character being black - you're kinda racist.
If it's about sex and "boys that want to be girls" PLUS it's a forced interaction or action within the game - yeah, if you want to preach give me a chance of not being preached to. THAT scene in DA:V is a perfect example of how NOT to do it.
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