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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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I really need to stop looking at twitter hashtags... It's like being addicted to watching trainwrecks. It was really great to finally see some solidarity with #StopGamerGate2014, but I feel like all the constant jabs and awkward/hateful twitter "discussions" are giving me a headache.

I'll just stick to this thread for now. And try to do other things because Jesus Christ this should not be that important in my life.
 
And still do based on some of the tweets I've received in the last couple of hours.

If you want to talk about ethics, then do that. Why insist on doing it under a flag that has become indelibly associated with misogyny?
And a flag that has actively tried to silence people like John Walker, one of the few people out there who called out the bullshit during the debacle that surrounded Rab Florence's dismissal a couple of years ago.

That particular shitstorm was visible, raised a ton of ethical concerns and there were great threads about it here but for some fucking reason, all the current dirty laundry Sherlocks were nowhere to be found. Not enough menacing vaginas I guess,
 
Yeah no http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/conferences/stalking/willmcma.pdf



The guy has done these things and said he would again
Do your research before saying BS like this would fly in australia

Um that is about stalking, not restraining order.

Edit: I'm not defending the guy, it would be a lot easier if it was just gameethics as jim sterling put it and not some drama show.

Edit#2:http://www.legalaid.wa.gov.au/Infor...Orders/Pages/MisconductRestrainingOrders.aspx

The MRO can include stopping the respondent from:
being on or near premises where the applicant lives or works
being on or near a named building, locality or place
coming within a certain distance of the applicant
contacting or attempting to contact the applicant in any way, including ringing, writing to or text messaging or emailing the applicant
being at a place even if they have a right to be there
preventing anyone from entering or staying in a place
having a gun or a gun licence or applying for a gun licence*
getting anyone else to do any of the things listed above.
 
Has this Guardian article been posted yet? Put up 6 hours ago or so.

Lazy coverage of Gamergate is only feeding this abusive campaign

Stems directly from an observation of the (predictable) 'middle' stance taken by the NYT article yesterday, and criticising that position somewhat. The sentiment of the piece is pretty much something that I've seen repeated in this thread for a few weeks now, the idea that by treating this as a dispute between 'equal' sides, the 'truth' or solution or whatever must reside somewhere in the middle. Which, as the article argues, grants #GG more legitimacy than its actions (which so, so, sososo often fly in the face of its stated aims) deserve.

“Overall, the pattern is clear,” writes Marcotte: “#gamergate opposes ethical journalism. They just claim the opposite, for the same reason conservatives say liberals are the ‘real’ racists and anti-choicers claim they want to ‘protect’ women and homophobes say they are trying to ‘protect traditional marriage’”.

Many discussions on the topic have opened by suggesting that the answer is somewhere in the middle, that there’s good points made on both sides, that the majority of gamergate is interested in ethical journalism. But none of that is true. Nick Davies would call this “false balance” – the flawed assumption that if there are two identifiable sides, conflicts between them must be presented as an equal debate.

EDIT: I forgot to add, like I mentioned this isn't exactly new and cutting insight for the regular posters here, since much of what's said has been mentioned here already, so apologies for the choir preaching. But I thought it worth posting as it's reassuring to see this kind of informed take on the #GG incident being put out there on major news outlets.
 
Adam Baldwin literally tweeted:

Gamergate:

<ridiculous video accusing zoe quinn of shit>


the *name* Gamergate is inherently linked to the Zoe Quinn thing, Adam Baldwin made it up specifically for that reason.

You're right, it was from a Quinn-related video but there's simply no denying that the video was still about journalism. The gist of the video was outrage over Zoe Quinn getting early coverage from people she was close to (I'm not saying she actually slept with Grayson but it's clear they were at least fairly good platonic friends) and then some more from alleged harassment on Wizardchan (which the video disputes). Many people who were not misogynists no doubt saw that and decided that the things discussed were wrong and not because Quinn was a woman. I'd like to believe it was primarily popular for this reason but I can't know that since there's so little concrete data and maybe it is just a minority who are primarily concerned with that but I still think from the start, that was the concern of at least some portion of the supporters, rather than starting out 100% misogyny and then some ethics stuff seeping in later.
 
You're right, it was from a Quinn-related video but there's simply no denying that the video was still about journalism. The gist of the video was outrage over Zoe Quinn getting early coverage from people she was close to (I'm not saying she actually slept with Grayson but it's clear they were at least fairly good platonic friends) and then some more from alleged harassment on Wizardchan (which the video disputes). Many people who were not misogynists no doubt saw that and decided that the things discussed were wrong and not because Quinn was a woman.

You can argue that it's related to journalism, but saying it's "about journalism" is something that's only really argued because what it's actually about is something far less palatable than that.
 
You're right, it was from a Quinn-related video but there's simply no denying that the video was still about journalism. The gist of the video was outrage over Zoe Quinn getting early coverage from people she was close to (I'm not saying she actually slept with Grayson but it's clear they were at least fairly good platonic friends) and then some more from alleged harassment on Wizardchan (which the video disputes). Many people who were not misogynists no doubt saw that and decided that the things discussed were wrong and not because Quinn was a woman.
Except half that shit was debunked within minutes by facts, the rest taking a couple of hours. People were way too eager to jump on that and cling to it.

From minute 1 of this debacle, any vaguely decent human being would have been cautious.

Edit: and by cautious, I mean having a "let's wait for some facts to emerge" stance. Anyone willing to instantly jump on this never gave a fuck about journalism as they apparently didn't understand what fact checking is.
 
That's definitely not true, there have been other, more positive effects such as the likes of Kotaku and the Escapist revising their policies on journalistic ethics. Other effects have included the likes of Intel pulling sponsorship from Gamasutra, although whether that is "positive" will depend on who you ask.
If you ask anybody concerned with actual journalistic ethics they would tell you that an advertiser pulling out over editorial content is a negative.
I still can't get on board with the idea that it was started with the goal of harassing a developer though. If anything, it seemed to be a turning point away from that, since previously the topic was broadly called "The Quinnspiracy". The new label made it so that Quinn was no longer the centrepiece, although I don't deny there were many who dwelled on that.
You said it yourself, Adam Baldwin linked to the '5 guys' IA Quinnspiracy video and called it GamerGate. You can't wash that taint out and all of the prominent voices involved in it can't stay away from Quinnspiracy. The evidence is there GG is a new name for Quinnspiracy that has allowed it to attract folks rightly repulsed by Quinnspiracy. The continued presence of these folks despite all of the evidence that nothing but the # changed is really troubling.

I believe that kind of was tried earlier on and Jim Sterling tried to support an alternative but it never took off due to fear of fracturing the movement. A big part of the problem is the lack of any official leadership or goals. It's reminiscent of Occupy Wall Street in that it's a large group who are mad, but it's hard to know how many are mad at the right things or for the right reasons. I really wish there was some kind of way to survey this and ask supporters what their primary concern is.

They should want to fracture from the likes of Sargon/IA/Milo/etc the fracture is bad for them not for the people who want to discuss ethics.

Edit:Saw you posted this just wanted to respond
You're right, it was from a Quinn-related video but there's simply no denying that the video was still about journalism. The gist of the video was outrage over Zoe Quinn getting early coverage from people she was close to (I'm not saying she actually slept with Grayson but it's clear they were at least fairly good platonic friends) and then some more from alleged harassment on Wizardchan (which the video disputes)....

Those allegations were proven false withing hours of the leak when people noticed that a) it was not a review it was a three line mention and b) it was in an article published before the alleged affair. There was never any ethical concerns in the ZQ story that was why it never featured on any gaming sites they researched it and saw it for what it was, gossip.
 
Because I'm 100% sure in Australia it's based on physical contact(includes emails/phone calls). The problem is the US has 50 states with 50 different restraining laws but in general it would follow the same principal on physical contact for harassment.

My original answer was to why would he fight the restraining order, because his not physically harassing her. On that basis the restraining order would be dismissed as frivolous. Now I'm not sure which state they're in nor do I care really, there could have been small chance that restraining orders in that state went beyond a normal set types of restraining orders. But really I don't really care to argue this point any longer.

Restraining orders are to stop harassment. The fact that one is being contested at all means that a judge approved one. We can assume this judge knows about his/her State's laws. The full nature of the restraining order has not been disclosed.

So you asserting that the order is being misused, even though:

You don't know the content of the order.
You don't know the law.
A judge who does know these things issued the order.

is curious.

But really I don't really care to argue this point any longer.

I can see why.
 
You can argue that it's related to journalism, but saying it's "about journalism" is something that's only really argued because what it's actually about is something far less palatable than that.

Well what is your own interpretation? I'm assuming you watched it too at some point, I'm interested to hear what you think the video was really saying and why.
 
You're right, it was from a Quinn-related video but there's simply no denying that the video was still about journalism. The gist of the video was outrage over Zoe Quinn getting early coverage from people she was close to (I'm not saying she actually slept with Grayson but it's clear they were at least fairly good platonic friends) and then some more from alleged harassment on Wizardchan (which the video disputes). Many people who were not misogynists no doubt saw that and decided that the things discussed were wrong and not because Quinn was a woman. I'd like to believe it was primarily popular for this reason but I can't know that since there's so little concrete data and maybe it is just a minority who are primarily concerned with that but I still think from the start, that was the concern of at least some portion of the supporters, rather than starting out 100% misogyny and then some ethics stuff seeping in later.

I think that most of the thread will agree with me that:

1. Gamergate started as harassment.

2. Gamergate's popularity wasn't because of the harassment.

3. Gamergate has primary been conspiratorial since it took off "big".

4. These conspiratory theories systematically target feminists & outspoken feminist women.

Fact 1 & 4 combine into the narrative of misogyny and harassment. Fact 3 is used as a reason "Why it isn't" but still ends up resulting in 4.


For clarity: The number of claims made regarding collusion and feminist conspiracies made by GGers are numerous and 9/10 are easily debunked. This is why the term "conspiratorial" easily applies & why many industry watchdogs dislike GG and feel like it's actually harmed discussion of the industry even amongst the sides of GG that try to discuss "corruption".
 
Every other message or article related to GG loons is about their ability to score some action. I guess everyone, progressives and regressives alike, have really internalised the terminology over the years. Embrace the hate. Some things have not changed one bit in 16 years. I don't know if you can blame the gaming culture though, maybe it's the Internet or anonymity or just human nature. Giving this sort of rhetoric more media exposure is just going to make outsiders double down on their view that gamers are a bunch of losers - that's what they even call one another. -_-

You need to cut out this apathetic defeatist bullshit, it's getting annoying
 
I think it's perfectly easy to deny that video was about journalism. There's a reason why during his e screed about Nathan Grayson he puts up the offending article for like 20 seconds. Because he KNOWS it's fucking nothing.
 
Restraining orders are to stop harassment. The fact that one is being contested at all means that a judge approved one. We can assume this judge knows about his/her State's laws. The full nature of the restraining order has not been disclosed.

So you asserting that the order is being misused, even though:

You don't know the content of the order.
You don't know the law.
A judge who does know these things issued the order.

is curious.



I can see why.

That's because this is what most likely happened
Agree to the Restraining Order with no findings that abuse has occurred.
Proceed to an evidentiary hearing to Contest the Allegations.
 
Now, now this has nothing to do Zoe or feminism. We've always been at war with Ethicsasia.

So would everyone please head over to YouTube for your daily Two Minutes Hate video about Anita and the Sisterhood. Thanks in advance.
 
Well what is your own interpretation? I'm assuming you watched it too at some point, I'm interested to hear what you think the video was really saying and why.

As another label MRAs jumped on to justify the witchhunt.

You can't have a campaign questioning ethics that is started on something that is proven to have no ethical breaches. That is inherently hypocritical.
 
Now, now this has nothing to do Zoe or feminism. We've always been at war with Ethicsasia.

So would everyone please head over to YouTube for your daily Two Minutes Hate video about Anita and the Sisterhood. Thanks in advance.

You lie about our brothers in Ethicsasia, we've always been at war with SJWania! Report for re-education at once!
 
Well what is your own interpretation? I'm assuming you watched it too at some point, I'm interested to hear what you think the video was really saying and why.

Why the huge focus on indie games? Where was gamergate during the Doritos nonsense. Where are they on the Blizzard / Gamespot controversy, or the Shadow of Mordor controversy?

Why are they attacking someone for a review that criticizes an element of the game the reviewer found distasteful?
 
Well what is your own interpretation? I'm assuming you watched it too at some point, I'm interested to hear what you think the video was really saying and why.

I will pipe in and say that my interpretation of the video is that it uses the same language and rhetorical tactics as a conspiracy video. It attempts to draw focus on tiny details the same way a truther or anti-vaxxer video does. It then draws universal conclusions from these small "facts" Just the tone immediately raised alarms. It attempts to attack a persons character then attach that taint to a larger concept to sully it also.

I mean how can you champion journalistic ethics while breathlessly sourcing an unverified account? The video itself has no integrity. It is a cocktail of sensationalism, conspiracy theory, logical inconsistency and good ol' fashioned showmanship.
 
So would everyone please head over to YouTube for your daily Two Minutes Hate video about Anita and the Sisterhood. Thanks in advance.

Huh, my assimilation class didn't call it the Sisterhood. It's the Big Sister's Thought Police, or so it was copypasted on my infographic.

icyZ920YtS69z.PNG
 
I will pipe in and say that my interpretation of the video is that it uses the same language and rhetorical tactics as a conspiracy video. It attempts to draw focus on tiny details the same way a truther or anti-vaxxer video does. It then draws universal conclusions from these small "facts" Just the tone immediately raised alarms. It attempts to attack a persons character then attach that taint to a larger concept to sully it also.

I mean how can you champion journalistic ethics while breathlessly sourcing an unverified account? The video itself has no integrity. It is a cocktail of sensationalism, conspiracy theory, logical inconsistency and good ol' fashioned showmanship.
In retrospect, this is the crux of the matter for me: anyone willing to take such a video at face value, when it's so blatantly at the opposite of any journalism standard itself, is either disingenuous or ignorant about journalism. Either way, there's no logical next step to go on a crusade about ethics.

The next 2 months spin from that.
 
Huh, my assimilation class didn't call it the Sisterhood. It's the Big Sister's Thought Police, or so it was copypasted on my infographic.

icyZ920YtS69z.PNG

...Didn't I make this joke the other day? Gamergate being fine with a Big Brother, but not Big Sister? They're the most the most predictable thing in the world.

EDIT: Wait, this Richard Dawkins? What?
 
And so ends an hour long discussion with a 'dissenting' feminist who has no problems with their being anti feminists in GamerGate but who took issue with me calling GamerGate anti feminist. Apparently in doing so I erased her agency. I guess GamerGate people talk like this.

Yay!
 
Athiest community has pretty big problems with feminism.

Yeah I guess I missed that but I hope it's just prominent assholes like IA and Richard Dawkins have problems with feminism, have only seen the crap around IA since this blew up. How in the hell did these two groups start beefing? Please tell me it isn't some variant on a tired 'gender roles are determined by genetics' canard?
 
Sorry if this was posted already, I don't have the patience to dig through the thread, it's moving too quickly. It paints with a broad brush, and is maybe a little too neat and tidy in its summations, but it gets the cultural shift. Sadly I don't agree with the "GG is over bar the shouting" sentiment, not yet anyway.

http://tiedtiger.com/post/100118529581/what-lies-beyond-gamergate-the-new-games

A few tl;dr quotes:

Games started to have meanings. Games started to be about something. Games started to completely discard all pretense of being about what they were “supposed” to be about, from Anna Anthropy to Zynga. Rather than follow the path of the masterworks, these new games came at the problem from right angles. And some of them succeeded in part because the gaming media was very enthusiastic for them. Why? Because the games press is bored by the prospect of writing about masterworks. They’ve seen them all before, multiple times.

In large part the meritocrats are simply ignorant of a world outside their borders. They tend to know very little about what happens outside Steam and consoles. They tend to be baffled by the rise of Facebook or iPad games. They tend to be the ones arguing that Gone Home isn’t really a game. Theirs is a small island, and nobody’s managed to explain to them why the age of artwork games is actually a great thing, nor to get them away from their catastrophic thinking.

Their problem is not - and has never been - about how reviewers review or the ethics of games journalism. Those are surface details. Their problem is that they feel left behind. They don’t know what cultural criticism is, for example, and so interpret it as an attack on who they are. They don’t understand that just because a game doesn’t sit well on the old merit scale doesn’t mean it’s a fraud. The scale is simply wrong. And having largely witnessed this all develop around rather than through their culture, they started shooting the messengers. That in turn eventually led them to attempt to conduct an academic pogrom, and to threats, all while insisting that they were the reasonable ones.

That was gamergate.

The New Games are scary. They go in a dozen directions all at once. They are deeply connected to the idea that games are culture and that movements in culture matter. They are largely unconcerned with the idea that games require scores or merit, or objective assessments. Meritocrats thought they understood the universe, but the universe changed - and with it the sense of what games are.
 
I know there's been a lot of talk about the moderates, but instead of their positions I'd really like to know what they've been doing lately.

When this all started there was at least GoodGamers and TFYC. And, ok, I personally have problems with both of those entities, but I can at least recognize that creating websites and funding charities are pretty constructive activities. But what on earth have people been doing for the last 3 or 4 weeks except aiding a hate campaign through obfuscation? The only thing I ever see is ire over a 2 month old editorial. Even if the activity within the group is all tea parties and niceties, why is it unfair to judge them based on their doings with others, which for half of GG's existence has only been harassment?
 
...Didn't I make this joke the other day? Gamergate being fine with a Big Brother, but not Big Sister? They're the most the most predictable thing in the world.

EDIT: Wait, this Richard Dawkins? What?
Its been pretty documented for him saying this BS

There are a lot of decent subreddits amongst the cesspool of a site. Truegaming is one of them. /r/games is pretty good for gaming discussions as well.
I go on r/relationships that one gives me hope in humanity, such a supportive community
 
I know there's been a lot of talk about the moderates, but instead of their positions I'd really like to know what they've been doing lately.

When this all started there was at least GoodGamers and TFYC. And, ok, I personally have problems with both of those entities, but I can at least recognize that creating websites and funding charities are pretty constructive activities. But what on earth have people been doing for the last 3 or 4 weeks except aiding a hate campaign through obfuscation? The only thing I ever see is ire over a 2 month old editorial. Even if the activity within the group is all tea parties and niceties, why is it unfair to judge them based on their doings with others, which for half of GG's existence has only been harassment?

Most of the people still in this thread are moderates. We aren't insulting people or sending them death threats. We aren't signing up for other forums to go and yell at people on them, or trott out the same arguments they've already heard a million times.
 
I wonder why, since they are far from being mutually exclusive.

Stems from a few years ago. Kind of a similar story as GG, actually. A woman speaker gave a talk about how she was uncomfortable at skeptic's conferences after being hit on / followed and it just kind of erupted from there with some agreeing the community had problems and others saying it was no big deal, including prominent people like Dawkins. Probably a key moment in why we see prominent Atheist youtubers like AngryAthiest and Thunderf00t so focused on feminism today.
 
Most of the people still in this thread are moderates. We aren't insulting people or sending them death threats. We aren't signing up for other forums to go and yell at people on them, or trott out the same arguments they've already heard a million times.

No I get that. I mean the supposed majority of moderates who continue to use and support the hashtag.
 
Meritocrats?

Another quote:

That inherent presumption of merit has been a feature of gamer culture since its foundation. It is so strong that it’s seen as the default, as something utterly intrinsic. Reviewers are hailed as true by the culture if they speak to merit and talk about content as an aside. Equally they are pilloried if they are seen to go against the grain. An average meritocratic fan will happily accept that perhaps a game has content issues, but also to say that to fault its score on that basis is false. It would be like Top Gear marking down a car because of its paint job.

However the meritocratic way of thinking is at odds with where most experimental games have been going, and it has been for years. Your Dear Esther, Gone Home, Stanley Parable, The Passage, Depression Quest, dys4ia, Bientôt l’été, Proteus and many others don’t fit on a merit table. They either have little or no gameplay, no replayability or any purpose beyond exploring them. They are often poorly engineered, and yet attract considerable praise. In the meritocratic view they’re like Top Gear giving higher praise to a Reliant Robin than a Bugatti Veyron purely on aesthetics. Meritocrats fundamentally just don’t understand that kind of thing, and tend to interpret it as an attack.
 
I'm just going to preface this post by saying thanks to everyone for being polite and reasonable to me so far. On the internet and especially surrounding topics like this it always feels like you're opening yourself up to angry or condescending tirades and I'm glad that's not how it's happening.

Which video are we talking about? The InternetAristocrat video Baldwin linked?

Yeah that one, it was called "Five Guys Saga" or something to that effect.

I think that most of the thread will agree with me that:

1. Gamergate started as harassment.

2. Gamergate's popularity wasn't because of the harassment.

3. Gamergate has primary been conspiratorial since it took off "big".

4. These conspiratory theories systematically target feminists & outspoken feminist women.

Fact 1 & 4 combine into the narrative of misogyny and harassment. Fact 3 is used as a reason "Why it isn't" but still ends up resulting in 4.


For clarity: The number of claims made regarding collusion and feminist conspiracies made by GGers are numerous and 9/10 are easily debunked. This is why the term "conspiratorial" easily applies & why many industry watchdogs dislike GG and feel like it's actually harmed discussion of the industry even amongst the sides of GG that try to discuss "corruption".

You make some good points and it's definitely been true that the conspiracy aspects of it had gotten a little out of hand sometimes. It does seem like the greatest victim in the discussion has been truth and I can't deny that GG supporters are very eager to support unsubstantiated claims if they re-enforce their narrative. I mean you still see posts claiming as a fact that Zoe Quinn slept around for good reviews, despite the fact that their were no actual reviews, just fluff pieces that gave her some attention. At the same time though, they have been given some material to form conspiracies from, especially with bizarre cases of extreme moderation where normally fairly hands-off boards like r/gaming and /v/ just completely nuked discussion of it.

Why the huge focus on indie games? Where was gamergate during the Doritos nonsense. Where are they on the Blizzard / Gamespot controversy, or the Shadow of Mordor controversy?

Well quite frankly, I'd there's a huge overlap between people who were on top of the Geoff Keighly Doritos thing (I'm presuming that's what you mean by "Doritos nonsense") and the core supporter's of GG. I would even say the Doritos thing was a necessary precursor to make this happen. My guess is that it's more focused on indie games because the people in this haven't had faith in AAA devs in years anyway and the big publishers have their own means of marketing while indies rely more heavily on things like articles and game competitions. That's just my perception of it though.

What is the Blizzard-Gamespot controversy by the way?

I will pipe in and say that my interpretation of the video is that it uses the same language and rhetorical tactics as a conspiracy video. It attempts to draw focus on tiny details the same way a truther or anti-vaxxer video does. It then draws universal conclusions from these small "facts" Just the tone immediately raised alarms. It attempts to attack a persons character then attach that taint to a larger concept to sully it also.

I mean how can you champion journalistic ethics while breathlessly sourcing an unverified account? The video itself has no integrity. It is a cocktail of sensationalism, conspiracy theory, logical inconsistency and good ol' fashioned showmanship.

When you put it that way, I can see what you mean. The video (and GG at large) has been very flippant about making sure sources are verified before taking them up as talking points, which is why I still have trouble believing a lot of the things supporters say today (such as claims that the #stopgamergate campaign was assisted by bots).
 
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