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[Nekofrog]

the richard dawkins/sam harris/penn jillette crowd. basically privileged white dudes.

their rhetoric actually has a lot in common with gamergate and i suspect there is a lot of crossover in the communities.

don't roll penn into the same group as these asshats

 

[Lalalandia]

Don't attack me, this is just my opinion, grabbed straight from my Twitter:
"Every one of you on all sides (including me) have missed what everybody have enjoyed about gaming, for shame to all of you."
I have nothing more to say about this, I am sick and tired of this subject making headlines over and over, if we ever wanted both genders to be equal, we wouldn't be doing all of this, and we wouldn't need attention, instead, we would contribute to critique, not attack each other, and my opinion has nothing to do with either sides.

So you wish this would go away? So do we all, yet it's just not.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Zoë has given Fuck No Video Games access to her archive of harassment against her, and right now their twitter feed has a full breakdown of how it all started and it's enlightening evidence that it never was about anything BUT ruining a woman's life for daring to have sex. Read it there.

e: Storify version available

I've had issues with Fuck No Videogame's blog in the past but this is a really good read. Had no clue Zoe's ex had tried getting Something Awful and the PA forums in on this initially, or that he had even went directly to /pol/ and /r9k/ rather than somebody just stumbling across his original blog post and running with it.

There's channeling out your frustration in an emotional but totally reckless way in a blogpost over cheating, and then there's actively trying to recruit an army over it. One might mean you're mentally-unstable if you're doing it in public but at least understandable, but the other just makes you out to be an enormous douchelord. It's like a nuke to an ant hill that kills the surrounding neighborhood and contaminates everything for years to come, christ.

 

[partyphone]

don't roll penn into the same group as these asshats

he's a hardcore libertarian and is no friend of equality.

 

[sonicmj1]

I haven't seen anyone in this thread that doesn't think Hernandez shouldn't have disclosed her relationships.

The rare triple-negative. And in this case, one negative too many.

The prevailing view in this thread, on all sides, is that Hernandez should have disclosed her relationships. That's why disclosure was added to those articles after the conflict was brought to Kotaku's attention.

 

[Nekofrog]

he's a hardcore libertarian and is no friend of equality.

citation needed

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Already clarified earlier.

I'm caught up now, sorry.

looking at polls, atheists come off as being the most left/liberal-minded demographic imaginable, but I must admit this has also been my experience. Of course it depends on how we define "vocal". I'm not opposed to expressing my opinions on organized religion myself either depending on the context. and i'm definitely not the mra/libertarian type

Generally the same now that I think about it. I only know one other atheist, and he's anarcho-capitalist all the way. But yeah, I'm quite open about my lack of religion and still get along fine with the 10 conservatives at work with whom I agree about virtually nothing politically.

As for any "big name" atheists, I know Dawkins has kinda gone off the deep end in recent years, but I can't say I've followed Harris too much.

 

[Galactic Fork]

don't roll penn into the same group as these asshats

During the incident that got Anthony Cumia fired. Penn said that the fact Anthony didn't kill the woman that assaulted him, and only said horribly racist things on twitter, he was like Gandhi or MLK

 

[JC Sera]

citation needed

I don't know who the guy is, but I googled his name with sexism afterwards and got these
http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/02/women-who-dont-amuse-penn-jilette-are-cunts/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterf...w-to-professional-comedy-with-added-misogyny/

Spoiler

who is this guy? I'm not american never really heard of him

 

[tchocky]

I don't know who the guy is, but I googled his name with sexism afterwards and got these
http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/02/women-who-dont-amuse-penn-jilette-are-cunts/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterf...w-to-professional-comedy-with-added-misogyny/

Spoiler

who is this guy? I'm not american never really heard of him

I was just about to post those exact links, he is one half of the magic act Penn and Teller unfortunately not the silent one.

 

[Glitchesarecool]

Spoiler

who is this guy? I'm not american never really heard of him

Magician, comedian, and libertarian in stance. Sounds like a nice guy on the podcasts.

 

[JC Sera]

Magician, comedian, and libertarian in stance. Sounds like a nice guy on the podcasts.

Thats a disappointment. The world needs more cool-ass magicians.

 

[mo60]

Link?

It may take awhile to find it since it's on his twitter account since it was posted by him like two or three weeks ago. I think it was right before or around the time he set up that failed gofundme to fund his legal fees. He promised that he may leak a bit more soon a couple of weeks ago, but that never happened because he did not think it would be a good idea to do that a couple of days later.He also said more crazier things on his twitter account in late august when he talked about how zoey benefits directly from getting harassed even though zoey has been hurt really badly by the harassment.The guy is a bit weird and hope he recognizes one day the mistakes he made.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Penn's always been a dick, but his Walgreens ice cream ain't bad

 

[Galactic Fork]

Just so you know the referenced law for stalking from the article got repealed in 2008 . There is a new law, not that it's that much different.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/psioa2010409/

It is a nice way to show the meanings of harassment and stalking are different. Harassment must be physical as I've always argued. Stalking has the offensive material line is still there, but the prosecution has to show intent to harm from the defendant. Which is why I wanted a link to eron gronj latest actions because the blog alone could be argued as a tell all. People write tell all books all the time, it's the follow up that determines the intent.



At this hearing, the Court in many jurisdictions will offer a defendant the following options:

Agree to the Restraining Order with no findings that abuse has occurred;
Proceed to an evidentiary hearing to Contest the Allegations.

Just so you know, many states in the US have cyber stalking and cyber harassment laws which can and do result in restraining orders and gag orders.

 

[JC Sera]

Just so you know the referenced law for stalking from the article got repealed in 2008 . There is a new law, not that it's that much different.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/psioa2010409/

It is a nice way to show the meanings of harassment and stalking are different. Harassment must be physical as I've always argued. Stalking has the offensive material line is still there, but the prosecution has to show intent to harm from the defendant. Which is why I wanted a link to eron gronj latest actions because the blog alone could be argued as a tell all. People write tell all books all the time, it's the follow up that determines the intent.



At this hearing, the Court in many jurisdictions will offer a defendant the following options:

Agree to the Restraining Order with no findings that abuse has occurred;
Proceed to an evidentiary hearing to Contest the Allegations.

https://storify.com/davidsgallant/the-origins-of-gamergate
It was definite intent to harm, he literally and mostly intentionally started a hate campaign. I say mostly because he didn't intend it to blow up this badly.

Just so you know, many states in the US have cyber stalking and cyber harassment laws which can and do result in restraining orders and gag orders.

Well this discussion leaves me hoping Aus gets better fucking laws for this BS internet harassment.

 

[HK-47]

Why is Sam Harris being mentioned? Has he had problems with women or are we just rolling people together into an amorphous "them" blob?

 

[plagiarize]

The rare triple-negative. And in this case, one negative too many.

The prevailing view in this thread, on all sides, is that Hernandez should have disclosed her relationships. That's why disclosure was added to those articles after the conflict was brought to Kotaku's attention.

It's not incorrect but I made it unintentionally confusing as hell. Everyone I have seen take a position on Hernandez thinks she should have disclosed her relationships.

That's how I should have phrased it.

 

[shootfast]

https://storify.com/davidsgallant/the-origins-of-gamergate
It was definite intent to harm, he literally and mostly intentionally started a hate campaign. I say mostly because he didn't intend it to blow up this badly.


Well this discussion leaves me hoping Aus gets better fucking laws for this BS internet harassment.

Makes me more depressed that Jim Sterling's GameEthics didn't take off after reading that. As for australian laws, we got the present laws because the old ones jamed up the courts. So in essence more watered down and staying for some time.

 

[KTallguy]

What's sad and amazing at the same time is when you read this article:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/fo...inist-frequency-creato/1100-6422958/#livefyre

And you look at the comments.

 

[Draxyle]

What's sad and amazing at the same time is when you read this article:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/fo...inist-frequency-creato/1100-6422958/#livefyre

And you look at the comments.

You know a community is toxic when sorting by top comments doesn't filter out the garbage whatsoever.

 

[laser]

Why is Sam Harris being mentioned? Has he had problems with women or are we just rolling people together into an amorphous "them" blob?

Kind of a leading question, isn't this?

He recently said atheism is more attractive to men because

"it doesn’t obviously have this nurturing, coherence-building extra estrogen vibe that you would want by default if you wanted to attract as many women as men.”

Salon article

 

[riotous]

It's strange to me because I'm finding myself not really caring if "Atheism" gets lumped into a conversation about GamerGate (despite the fact I'm an atheist who is really disturbed by gamergate and do not want to be associated with it.)

There's a funny correlation there since a lot of people like Boogie for instance refused to drop the "GamerGate" tag... instead of just talking about ethics without the label.

edit: Oh, and LOL@my tag!

ohyou!.gif

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I just defriended my first FB friend over this shit.

Knew them since college, too.

But I mean, just yesterday they had got offended that my cousin threw a gender slur at them. The slur? Mansplaining.

 

[Fredescu]

Arthur Chu wrote a pretty good article comparing Gamergate to Disco Demolition, and other elements of culture war: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...demolition-the-roots-of-reactionary-rage.html

I particularly like the way it ends on a hopeful note, since watching this all unfold makes me pretty despondent sometimes.

 

[kcp12304]

Kind of a leading question, isn't this?

He recently said atheism is more attractive to men because

"it doesn’t obviously have this nurturing, coherence-building extra estrogen vibe that you would want by default if you wanted to attract as many women as men.”

Salon article

He did respond to those critisims: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/im-not-the-sexist-pig-youre-looking-for

 

[Mman235]

You know a community is toxic when sorting by top comments doesn't filter out the garbage whatsoever.

Wow, those comments are probably the worst I've seen in a site involved on this. It's (mostly) not even GamerGate related or affiliated, it's just endless amounts of assorted misogyny towards Anita.

 

[plagiarize]

It's strange to me because I'm finding myself not really caring if "Atheism" gets lumped into a conversation about GamerGate (despite the fact I'm an atheist who is really disturbed by gamergate and do not want to be associated with it.)

There's a funny correlation there since a lot of people like Boogie for instance refused to drop the "GamerGate" tag... instead of just talking about ethics without the label.

edit: Oh, and LOL@my tag!

ohyou!.gif

At least this thread can deliver the occasional chuckle eh?

 

[Lime]

What's sad and amazing at the same time is when you read this article:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/fo...inist-frequency-creato/1100-6422958/#livefyre

And you look at the comments.

"no shh, let's just ignore Gamergate, the bigotry in video games will go away automatically"

 

[tonysidaway]

I should say it's not really Atheists in general but the "atheist community." As in the type of person to show up to a skeptic's conferences, which is probably a small percentage of people. They just tend to be the most vocal.

Yes, eye-rollingly bad. Online I've witnessed a number of major fights over basic things like anti-harassment policies at conferences. In recent years it has emerged that a number of prominent male atheists are known to have "roving hands" syndrome at conferences, and worse. Kinda explains those arguments about anti-harassment policies. This stuff is much smaller than Gamergate but because it's a relatively small community with a narrow focus it creates huge acrimony.

The ideological differences are also huge. I really wish Ayn Rand had been religious, it would have made atheist communities so much nicer to belong to.

 

[Galactic Fork]

He did respond to those critisims: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/im-not-the-sexist-pig-youre-looking-for

And that post had some problems in it too. The funniest thing though is that in the title he's referencing a scene in Star Wars where the person was lying and they actually were the droids they were looking for... Is he implying he really is the sexist pig we're looking for, and he's using a mind trick to convince us otherwise?

 

[The Technomancer]

Seeing the discussion going on in the Utah thread and the NY Times thread, I have to say...if I was a part of basically any other community besides NeoGAF this last month and a half or so would have been enough to honestly make me leave the online "gaming community" completely. It really would have. This place has been basically as good as it gets and its still made me feel like just unplugging sometimes.

 

[BanGy.nz]

I really wish Ayn Rand had been religious, it would have made atheist communities so much nicer to belong to.

Holy shit that is an amazing sentence.

Do the sexist assholes in the atheist community identify as atheists the same way many of these GamerGaters identify as gamers?

 

[plagiarize]

"no shh, let's just ignore Gamergate, the bigotry in video games will go away automatically"

There wasn't any bigotry before it was pointed out, right? Presumably.

 

[Pyronite]

Seeing the discussion going on in the Utah thread and the NY Times thread, I have to say...if I was a part of basically any other community besides NeoGAF this last month and a half or so would have been enough to honestly make me leave the online "gaming community" completely. It really would have. This place has been basically as good as it gets and its still made me feel like just unplugging sometimes.

Agree 100%. It's made me legitimately question any positive feelings I once had for the "gaming community" at large. Discussion of this issue on any forum or news article is sure to be filled with the worst of it.

Incredibly depressing – and way more prevalent than it should be.

 

[Lime]

There wasn't any bigotry before it was point out, right? Presumably.

It's mostly a joke about the inaction by power holders and influential media to take a stand against this, akin to some of the arguments made in the other thread on why we should all be silent and just ignore the bigotry and it will go away automatically for some reason.

The Gamespot comments reinforce how incredibly toxic some gaming communities are. Something needs to be done.

 

[Zeth]

And that post had some problems in it too. The funniest thing though is that in the title he's referencing a scene in Star Wars where the person was lying and they actually were the droids they were looking for... Is he implying he really is the sexist pig we're looking for, and he's using a mind trick to convince us otherwise?

I'm almost positive that is not a Star Wars reference. It was part of a larger response to a Washington Post reporter who he felt was determined to be offended. He summarizes the conversation in the post.

If you really want to know the truth about me, I tend to respect women more than men. I’m not saying that’s a good thing, but it’s actually an honest statement about my psychological biases. I’m not the sexist pig you’re looking for.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Seeing the discussion going on in the Utah thread and the NY Times thread, I have to say...if I was a part of basically any other community besides NeoGAF this last month and a half or so would have been enough to honestly make me leave the online "gaming community" completely. It really would have. This place has been basically as good as it gets and its still made me feel like just unplugging sometimes.

Honestly, the period right around the start of #GamerGate when the Quinnspiracy crap was still dominating the discussion was the closest I've ever come to just saying "fuck this bullshit, I'm out."

Thankfully, I was able to ignore a lot of it due to being absolutely swamped with work and other real life responsibilities "family wedding, kid's birthday, etc." Any free time I had otherwise was mostly spent reading up on Smash 3DS news. So I've just now been getting back into the GamerGate nonsense over the past week.

 

[plagiarize]

It's mostly a joke about the inaction by power holders and influential media to take a stand against this, akin to some of the arguments made in the other thread on why we should all be silent and just ignore the bigotry and it will go away automatically for some reason.

The Gamespot comments reinforce how incredibly toxic some gaming communities are. Something needs to be done.

I knew what you meant, I was just lampooning that way of thinking. Like so:

Remember when we made DRM go away by not talking about it? Or when we made that crazy lawyer go away by not talking about him?

Oh wait? That's not what happened?

 

[partyphone]

citation needed

he's pretty open about being a libertarian! there are like a million articles on it. he does videos all the time. the dude is famous for never shutting up! like this is one of the first results on google:

http://rare.us/story/penn-jillette-why-i-went-from-liberal-to-libertarian/

 

[FlyinJ]

I knew what you meant, I was just lampooning that way of thinking. Like so:

Remember when we made DRM go away by not talking about it? Or when we made that crazy lawyer go away by not talking about him?

Oh wait? That's not what happened?

Thank god for we listened to the people telling us to just shut up and stop whining about requiring online activation for all next gen console titles as well.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Seeing the discussion going on in the Utah thread and the NY Times thread, I have to say...if I was a part of basically any other community besides NeoGAF this last month and a half or so would have been enough to honestly make me leave the online "gaming community" completely. It really would have. This place has been basically as good as it gets and its still made me feel like just unplugging sometimes.

I am confused when I see people say this.
Do you mean you would just stop communicating on video game forums and video game activities? Or just plain stop gaming in general?

Because honestly if you let them push you away from gaming communities then the trolls win.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Honestly, the period right around the start of #GamerGate when the Quinnspiracy crap was still dominating the discussion was the closest I've ever come to just saying "fuck this bullshit, I'm out."

Thankfully, I was able to ignore a lot of it due to being absolutely swamped with work and other real life responsibilities "family wedding, kid's birthday, etc." Any free time I had otherwise was mostly spent reading up on Smash 3DS news. So I've just now been getting back into the GamerGate nonsense over the past week.

I remember the whole issue with Zoe started around the same time we had the big Smash 3DS ESRB leak appear with Duck Hunt and such.

In fact, the only reason I knew about the Zoe shit was because I was on /v/ watching the leak unfold, and I noticed all the weird GamerGate stuff flying around. I wish the rage over Dark Pit could've distracted everyone long enough that GamerGate never got traction in the first place.

 

[The Technomancer]

I am confused when I see people say this.
Do you mean you would just stop communicating on video game forums and video game activities? Or just plain stop gaming in general?

Because honestly if you let them push you away from gaming communities then the trolls win.

I wouldn't stop gaming, but I almost certainly would have basically stopped forum involvement or being part of any real dialogue. I mean, hell, I basically have outside of here.

I know that in that sense they kind of win. There's only a certain amount of "good" that I can do communicating about this stuff here in a mostly closed system like GAF, where even if we are bringing some people around to our perspective there's the festering boil of nastiness out there. But I mean, at a certain point its just...too easy to just be done with it, to stop trying to batter at the wall of wailing, nashing teeth with the equivalent of a spoon

That's perhaps how they've won the most. I know they're not a majority, or anything close to it, but they have successfully created the illusion of control, or at least dominance. The only heartening thing has been just how strong the pushback has been from some people and some groups.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Seeing the discussion going on in the Utah thread and the NY Times thread, I have to say...if I was a part of basically any other community besides NeoGAF this last month and a half or so would have been enough to honestly make me leave the online "gaming community" completely. It really would have. This place has been basically as good as it gets and its still made me feel like just unplugging sometimes.

I feel lucky to have had the luxury to not have this affect me much recently as games have taken a back seat to real life commitments for months now. Certainly a luxury I don't take for granted considering what some people are going through right now.

 

[Nymphae]

he's pretty open about being a libertarian! there are like a million articles on it.

Right, and that's not what the person who quoted you was asking to provide proof of. That would be your comment that Penn is not for equality.

 

[moffattron9000]

Where was the GG outrage at the Shadows of Mordor situation?

This is important. In the middle of this whole fiasco we had something like an ACTUAL ethical problem

Because it didn't involve women or Indie games.

 

[Foffy]

And that post had some problems in it too. The funniest thing though is that in the title he's referencing a scene in Star Wars where the person was lying and they actually were the droids they were looking for... Is he implying he really is the sexist pig we're looking for, and he's using a mind trick to convince us otherwise?

I hope you're not for real.

 

[FF Seraphim]

I wouldn't stop gaming, but I almost certainly would have basically stopped forum involvement or being part of any real dialogue. I mean, hell, I basically have outside of here.

I know that in that sense they kind of win. There's only a certain amount of "good" that I can do communicating about this stuff here in a mostly closed system like GAF, where even if we are bringing some people around to our perspective there's the festering boil of nastiness out there. But I mean, at a certain point its just...too easy to just be done with it, to stop trying to batter at the wall of wailing, nashing teeth with the equivalent of a spoon

That's perhaps how they've won the most. I know they're not a majority, or anything close to it, but they have successfully created the illusion of control, or at least dominance. The only heartening thing has been just how strong the pushback has been from some people and some groups.

Bro, I would if I could send you a batch of "Stick with it" cookies to cheer you up since I can understand how the callous nature of people can really damper your attitude towards people and their affiliation.

 

[The Technomancer]

Bro, I would if I could send you a batch of "Stick with it" cookies to cheer you up since I can understand how the callous nature of people can really damper your attitude towards people and their affiliation.

I mean, I'm just a guy who posts about this stuff on message boards and believes enough in the importance of non-antagonistic education to try and talk people around. I have developed an even more ridiculous level of respect for the men and women (sadly mostly women) who have actually been at the center of this shitstorm. If I was Zoe Quinn I would probably honestly have just tried to walk away from everything for my emotional health