Support NeoGAF

[Celestia]

Combat devolved.

 

[Ray Wonder]

A GUIDE TO WHY PEOPLE ARE ANNOYED FOR THE UNINITIATED

The year is 2014. The multiplayer FPS genre has been dominated by a very specific brand of aim down sights/sprint based shooters, which started really exploding with the popularity of Call of Duty. Since then, for the majority of shooters... if you want to play them, you have to deal with that type of combat and gameplay.

But there existed a time before Call of Duty. A time when Unreal Tournament and Quake existed, which were some of the most finely tuned and blazingly fast FPS multiplayer experiences ever made to this day. A time when Return to Castle Wolfenstein multiplayer was so sweetly balanced that it didn't need to hold your hand so you could hit something. The gameplay itself was so engaging and so competitive that you felt compelled to get better, and didn't need a constant feed of positive reinforcement to do so. You didn't need level ups and fuckin' attachments and stat differentials; it wasn't how much you grinded that mattered, but how much of the accumulated skill sets you internalized.

Halo existed in the between time, right when consoles were starting to be really feasible for competitive FPS titles. And it added some new things, yes, but it was still very much rooted in an older tradition, one where again it was simply skill vs. skill and the pace was entirely governed by the rules it played by which remained a staple.

Consider where we are today. One of the reasons people were so furious about Tomb Raider 2013 is that it destroyed entirely a gametype that literally no longer exists in the industry, replacing it with something we see every other goddamn day. It may have been acceptable in some remote way if we had a world where the older genre was thriving, but we don't. And it's not like the older genre was bad (quite the contrary, it remains amongst the best ideas ever had in gaming) - it's just newer gamers were conditioned to have their hands held to such an extreme that they no longer could adjust to those old gameplay ideals.

The same is true of Halo. Because there are extremely few games anymore in the old tradition. Almost no games in the old Halo tradition. They simply don't exist, squeezed out of existence by whining new fans who couldn't adjust, couldn't acquire the skill sets, and therefore demanded the few remaining vestiges of this amazing older style to be expunged. So now Halo too is becoming like all those other "me-too" shooters, and where does that leave those who actually liked that older tradition? With few if any options left.

And that's just part of the issue.

Because maybe if there was some way to do ADS/Sprint and still make it feel like Halo, people would accept it. But as demonstrated with Halo 4, there isn't. It destroyed the heart and soul of the multiplayer and the community simply abandoned it, full stop. They catered to people who did not fucking care and the result is the series cratered.

When you have ADS/Sprint, it changes the entire ebb and flow of the combat. Where before you had "Run and Gun" characteristics, now you have "Run or Gun" flow, where people are either slowing/stopping to shoot through iron sights or then engaging sprint to get out of dodge. This literally transforms the way a traditional Halo match used to go. And it doesn't transform it into something better, but something vastly different, with lower skill requirements and that feels like a billion other shooters on the market.


You don't have to be a fan of Halo to understand why this is so problematic to so many.

343 needs to read this. Everyone there.

 

[Maintenance]

I eagerly anticipate the killstreaks.

They're coming.

I wonder what will be the AC-130 gunship.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Once upon a time, Sony butchered and killed it's premier online shooter (SOCOM) by chasing COD. I would hate to see Microsoft follow in their footsteps. Can't get ahead of ourselves though, still gotta play it and see how things fit together.

Killzone 2 as well. Because the "noise" was so fucking over the top, the series iteratively went towards the COD crowd more and more and we lost one of the best, most unique FPS in the modern age, replaced by the same thing as everything else.

The FPS Singularity.

 

[Gamerloid]

This is going to the Beta right? With enough fan concerns, I'm sure they might reconsider. I don't know much about Halo, but knowing business, Microsoft and 343 can't risk messing up this series.

 

[Doug Heffernan]

Couldn't this just be like the Battle Rifle in Halo 2 where you click to zoom? They just made it graphically different? There's no way to know it's hold left trigger to aim shit.

This is different.
Clicking the stick to zoom put you at a disadvantage because it blocks out a lot of the action around you.
ADS doesn't have that disadvantage, therefore everybody will be using it.
It ruins the balancing.

 

[BigDug13]

Jesus christ people, calm down o.o

Might be only for that weapon, what's the point of going batshit insane over 6 seconds of footage

Calm down and what. Wait until it's too late to voice our disdain for this gameplay style in Halo? What's the harm in voicing dissatisfaction with even a possibility of that gameplay now?

 

[BokehKing]

bolded is horseshit but beyond that I challenge you to describe how from a gameplay perspective ADS constitutes an evolution to Halo's formula as opposed to the devolution that's been argued it constitutes, in this thread and in countless hypothetical worst case scenarios for years.

"Yes. Halo has evolved because to stop and pop. Totally compliments the gameplay, the flow. I really gave that one a lot of thought"

Simple, it brings it in line with current day... You're telling me people who never played Halo, are going to pick up MCC and be like "Oh this is soo cool, I walk slow and can't aim"

We are talking about today's market that is use to your far cry 's, your destiny, your COD and battlefield

What they could do, is make it like wolfenstein, you can ADS if that's what you like to do, with zero penalty to hip fire

 

[oti]

This is like the evil twin of a Nintendo Direct thread.

 

[Victory Red]

Whats ADS ?

Like ads as advertisements or what are you talking about...

Extra enemies the boss sends out as you are fighting him.

 

[Americanmushroom]

lol never played Halo and i am surprised at people freaking out about the ADS addition..

 

[Mr E.]

343 just shot themselves in the foot

Not while sprinting though.

 

[ohlawd]

I'll try it out first

quite indifferent to this

 

[Wollveren]

So 343 can fuck right off.

Gave them the benefit of the doubt after halo 4 and now this?

Sprint and Ads have no place in halo at all.

I really thought they were gonna do it right this time after all the good they've done with MCC. But ADS and Sprint again? For real?

Oh great Midship is back. Now sprint can completely ruin that map too.

Then keep giving it to them until they explain themselves. We don't know under what context sprint and ADS are existent here.

 

[Zakalwe]

Combat devolved.

For the people saying "welcome to 2014", this irony is incredibly true.

 

[jackissocool]

ADS and Sprint have their place in slower, non-arena shooters. I love it in Killzone, for example. Why the focus on class abilities and weighty movement, they make perfect sense and add a lot to the game.

But in Halo? No, god fucking no. Halo gunfights are about nonstop speed, leaping around like the super soldier you are, and factoring in the full speed movement of you and your opponent into your aiming. This better just be reskinned scoping or Halo is truly lost.

 

[Maintenance]

This is like the evil twin of a Nintendo Direct thread.

Only before the announcements, because after it then it is the same thing.

Combat devolved.

Bravo.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

Aiming down sites is how one properly uses a gun. That's not a COD thing. I don't get why people want the gunplay in Halo stuck in 1997.

Well Spartans have the reticule on their HUDs and are strong enough to shoot a weapon without shouldering it. That's at least how they explain it in the books.

They shouldn't need to ADS.

 

[DopeyFish]

This is going to the Beta right? With enough fan concerns, I'm sure they might reconsider. I don't know much about Halo, but knowing business, Microsoft and 343 can't risk messing up this series.

They didn't listen to the halo 4 complaints regarding sprint, what makes anyone think they'll actually change anything for us?

 

[iMax]

bolded is horseshit but beyond that I challenge you to describe how from a gameplay perspective ADS constitutes an evolution to Halo's formula as opposed to the devolution that's been argued it constitutes, in this thread and in countless hypothetical worst case scenarios for years.

"Yes. Halo has evolved because to stop and pop. Totally compliments the gameplay, the flow. I really gave that one a lot of thought"

Alright pal, let's calm down.

ADS constitutes an evolution simply because it's taking the series' gameplay loop and changing it up. Whether or not it's a positive or negative effect, that responsibility lies with the developers. You can't just rule something out without playing it, because otherwise evolution would never, ever occur.

 

[Striker]

It's always possible that sprint is one of the power-ups, like it was in Reach, though Reach's power-ups upset the balance in and of themselves.

"Spartan Abilities"

 

[The Shogun]

These comments from people saying adding ADS into the game is awesome is mind blowing to me.....


You're basically saying your excited that Halo will no longer be Halo. Why the hell does EVERY modern AAA shooter have to be COD? All I know is then I played MCC 2 months ago it was like a fresh breath of air. Something actually different.

 

[Camjo-Z]

That's gaming these days.

Massive over reaction, massive hype, massive everything to anything.

The way I see it, overreaction to something like this is actually a good thing. If it turns out that the whole thing was a big misunderstanding, gamers look silly for a bit and everyone moves on. If it turns out to be true and Halo 5 suffers in quality for it, we'd all feel pretty dumb for not speaking up.

 

[Raide]

So you have extremely limited experience with Halo but think the feature is justified?

Get out.

What made Halo EPIC was the fact that it was DIFFERENT. It was the one shooter on a console where map control, calling out, weapon timing and everyone starting on a even playing field defined how good you are.

They can do all of that still and still have ADS and Sprint.

 

[Queen of Hunting]

this explains all this is a pic 343 used at gdc panel disabled chief go go go

 

[Odah]

Isn't that the purpose of a beta? To listen to customer feedback?

 

[WrenchNinja]

Looks awesome! Can't wait.

why didn't you say this here

 

[MastaKilla]

Killzone 2 as well. Because the "noise" was so fucking over the top, the series iteratively went towards the COD crowd more and more and we lost one of the best, most unique FPS in the modern age, replaced by the same thing as everything else.

The FPS Singularity.

Yup and it sucks, because with Socom 4 i voted with my wallet and didn't buy it. Then the studio closed and the franchise died. Lose/Lose situation all around.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Well Spartans have the reticule on their HUDs and are strong enough to shoot a weapon without shouldering it. That's at least how they explain it in the books.

They shouldn't need to ADS.

We don't know if every gun has it even

This could just be how the BR is in Halo 5

2 seconds of leaked footage from god knows when

 

[Wollveren]

Calm down and what. Wait until it's too late to voice our disdain for this gameplay style in Halo? What's the harm in voicing dissatisfaction with even a possibility of that gameplay now?

Voice disdain and dissatisfaction when they actually explain themselves in a game trailer or something, not over 6 fucking seconds of blurry gameplay. We don't know under what context sprint and ADS exist.

 

[Leafhopper]

Never heard of ADS until this thread, only Iron sights. That said both it and sprint being in Halo is damn crazy.

EDIT:Gotta see how well its implemented though. Maybe its okay.

Maybe.

 

[Dramos]

Why do they need to appeal to the current generation of gamers? Is Halo 3 so old that all those fans don't game anymore? Can current gamers not be able to accept arena style gameplay? Does every game have to be the exact same? Current gamers are not capable of enjoying variety and are only accepting of a singular gaming style in FPS's? Or are these all simply assumptions based on heavy CoD sales?

In the long run, it's all about the money. Heavy CoD sales. Unfortunately.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Alright pal, let's calm down.

ADS constitutes an evolution simply because it's taking the series' gameplay loop and changing it up. Whether or not it's a positive or negative effect, that responsibility lies with the developers. You can't just rule something out without playing it, because otherwise evolution would never, ever occur.

I would argue that its more of a devolution. Things are changing, but ADS is most certainly not a change for the better. Maybe this is all just much ado about nothing, but still.

 

[iMax]

These comments from people saying adding ADS into the game is awesome is mind blowing to me.....


You're basically saying your excited that Halo will no longer be Halo. Why the hell does EVERY modern AAA shooter have to be COD? All I know is then I played MCC 2 months ago it was like a fresh breath of air. Something actually different.

You mean it felt like a game from 10 years ago.

 

[JayEH]

Got damn it. I burst out laughing in the middle of the library.

 

[T.O.P]

Calm down and what. Wait until it's too late to voice our disdain for this gameplay style in Halo? What's the harm in voicing dissatisfaction with even a possibility of that gameplay now?

There is a beta coming n 2 months, i prefer to wait and try it then give a feedback to 343

I'm probably crazy tho

 

[Entryhazard]

What is ADS?

 

[soultron]

Yeah, but sprint in Halo 4 was a bad thing.

H3 and ODST were my last games.

You had to chose Sprint as an ability in H4, right? Or am I thinking of Reach?

If this is forced on every player, then sure, get up in arms about it. But hopefully it's set up in such a way that you can chose this as an ability and maybe it's a sacrifice of some sort.

We don't know yet. We don't know much at all.

 

[Hatchtag]

One god damn job 343. One god damn job.

 

[PerezDeCorcho]

why didn't you say this here

Because he's afraid to face his own stupidity.

 

[Maintenance]

Alright pal, let's calm down.

ADS constitutes an evolution simply because it's taking the series' gameplay loop and changing it up. Whether or not it's a positive or negative effect, that responsibility lies with the developers. You can't just rule something out without playing it, because otherwise evolution would never, ever occur.

Yeah, I think it is time we should start playing football with five balls and 55 players, the game is so stale, it needs a change.

why didn't you say this here

Because he would probably like better to send PMs to every single user, and that would take time.

 

[BigDug13]

Alright pal, let's calm down.

ADS constitutes an evolution simply because it's taking the series' gameplay loop and changing it up. Whether or not it's a positive or negative effect, that responsibility lies with the developers. You can't just rule something out without playing it, because otherwise evolution would never, ever occur.

People become fans of a franchise due to specific gameplay features. If MS wants to experiment then fucking come up with a different franchise. Paying millions to Bungie to buy the franchise only to immediately squander the gameplay that made the franchise popular, then not listening to complaints and doing it again. I can't even...

 

[ryan299]

This thread is ugly already. Wait until the reveal tomorrow. It's going to be real bad.

It seems obvious that 343 hasn't learned anything for Halo 4.

 

[Solid Samus]

Simple, it brings it in line with current day... You're telling me people who never played Halo, are going to pick up MCC and be like "Oh this is soo cool, I walk slow and can't aim"

We are talking about today's market that is use to your far cry 's, your destiny, your COD and battlefield

What they could do, is make it like wolfenstein, you can ADS if that's what you like to do, with zero penalty to hip fire

Are you considering the negative effects this has on Halo's gameplay? There's more to considering implementing a feature like this than going "oh these FPS games have it" especially considering how different Halo is from those games (that difference being what makes it a popular and engaging game to begin with). Consolidating Halo into the fold of 'standard shooter template' is NOT a good thing and shouldn't be framed as such.

I mean, you're right, Wolfenstein style with no movement speed drop wouldn't be too much of a detriment other than that ADS blocks a lot less of your surroundings than usual and will probably be used nonstop by fans of the guns that have them, but for all the fucking developers to fall back on ADS for any reason, who could have possibly expected the house of fuckin Halo?

Keep in mind I'm not saying 'Halo should always stay the same', I'm saying 'Halo doesn't need this shit that could actively negatively impact its moment to moment gameplay loop just because everyone else has it". That you consider it an evolution, just because Halo wasn't doing that before, speaks volumes about how much consideration you're giving to context and the actual design of the Halo games, and their combat encounters

 

[Kusagari]

The mere fact sprint is still in shows 343 learned nothing from 4 and doesn't care about appealing to the old fans.

They have a product for those people, it's called the Master Chief Collection.

 

[Fracas]

Voice disdain and dissatisfaction when they actually explain themselves in a game trailer or something, not over 6 fucking seconds of blurry gameplay. We don't know under what context sprint and ADS exist.

Sprint and ADS are downright garbage in any context.

 

[Raide]

Isn't that the purpose of a beta? To listen to customer feedback?

Get outta here with sense! 7 seconds of footage from an unproven source is more than enough testing.

 

[Nabbis]

Voice disdain and dissatisfaction when they actually explain themselves in a game trailer or something, not over 6 fucking seconds of blurry gameplay. We don't know under what context sprint and ADS exist.

In what world has that ever worked? By the time a game hits beta it's far too late to change shit. It's probably even too late already.

They can come out and explain themselves right now.

 

[diamount]

What a load of shit. Yeah, lets codify the multiplayer even further.

 

[Heretic]

If this is ADS as we know it from COD/Battlefield, etc.- then this is garbage.

If this is just a new way of visually representing the click/zoom mechanic from previous titles, and aiming/strafe/movement speed are not affected by it, then it's not going to be a huge deal.

Sprint is bad for Halo, though. Although I think we knew it wasn't going anywhere.

This is how I feel about it right now...