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[boiled goose]

the apologists for this are pathetic.

it is about soot? bullshit number 1. What are people wearing afros and exaggerated lips.

skin color is not an issue in the Netherlands. Bullshit number 2. Are you seriously going to tell me that people of African descent are not discriminated?

ok fine it represents black people but this is not racist because no one is being discriminated. Bullshit number three. When you charactericaturze a group of people that is discriminated in several parts of the world if not most or all, has a history of being enslaved by European countries, etc you are doing something racist.

people weren't complaining until recently.bullshit number 4. this basically boils down to the same type of argument "man wasn't it better before those blacks started asking for rights? They used to be So happy!".

people are telling you it's racist including the protesters. Please choose not to listen.

 

[Alucrid]

It's not an N, it's a sideways Z, silly.

hold it in front of a mirror that way and you get an S, for Soot

 

[kamorra]

What about the afros?

I don't know. I have white friends with afros. Are these considered problematic too?

 

[TedNindo]

Hey its the anual zwarte piet discussion.


I'm pro keeping the tradition and I'm not a racist biggot.

And if you think those can't be combined you need to do some research on the subject instead of just reacting to pictures and articles on instinct.

I'm Belgian btw and we celebrate it aswel.

They laugh at the controversy in the Netherlands surrounding it on our national televion.

They interviewed load's of kids. Asking them all why piet is black. They all answered it's because of the soot in the chimneys.

 

[Mesousa]

I don't know. I have white friends with afros. Are these considered problematic too?

If they had it along with blackened faces it would be.

 

[kurisu_1974]

are you seriously that dense?

its a cultural practice that projects black people into caricatures...

Well to be really accurate, they depict Moors, whom I think werd Arabs.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Stop emberassing yourself Holland.

It's a racist practice.

 

[Silky]

Hey its the anual zwarte piet discussion.

I'm pro keeping the tradition and I'm not a racist biggot.

And if you think those can't be combined you need to do some research on the subject instead of just reacting to pictures and articles on instinct.

Can you explain to me what is accomplished by keeping to a tradition like this one, then?

 

[Mesousa]

Well to be really accurate, they depict Moors, whom I think werd Arabs.

There are black Arabs too, and they are/were plentiful in the area the moors were from.

 

[Malyse]

Hey its the anual zwarte piet discussion.

I'm pro keeping the tradition and I'm not a racist biggot.

And if you think those can't be combined you need to do some research on the subject instead of just reacting to pictures and articles on instinct.

Think you accidented a few words there. Particularly the word not.

 

[kamorra]

If they had it along with blackened faces it would be.

But I already said that I should ditch the blackface? I said it in the very post you quoted.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I'm so tired of this coming back every year I don't care anymore either way. Throw it away, honestly, who gives a shit in the end? If it is all about the kids, the kids won't mind a mix of black and white people as long as they get their presents.

 

[Htown]

Hey its the anual zwarte piet discussion.

I'm pro keeping the tradition and I'm not a racist biggot.

And if you think those can't be combined you need to do some research on the subject instead of just reacting to pictures and articles on instinct.

What research, specifically?

Do you have any links you would like to share?

 

[Mesousa]

But I already said that I should ditch the blackface? I said it in the very post you quoted.

All of the problematic elements need to be removed all together. You can't get rid of the blackface without the afro if you want the negative connotation removed.

 

[KidGalactus]

Are you arguing that the people wearing the make up/costume believe that black people are inherently inferior because of their skin color?

Racism is more broad than that.

Certain kinds of prejudice, or stereotypes might not be about inferiority in particular, but are racist platitudes just the same.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Bullshit. This is from a kid's book on Zwarte Piet :

Yeah. I can remember local Piets talking with fake Suriname accents. It has been changing for years now and suddenly pro-piet people think it's going too far. It's stupid.

 

[Kinsei]

I wonder what the N stands for

It clearly stands for uh, um, NAP, yeah nap. He clearly needs a nap after all of that running.

 

[way more]

Since people are so mad about the red lips, what if they got rid of them and used a much more natural make-up? Like Darrel Hammond when he played Jesse Jackson.

I think that absolves complaints on both sides.

 

[Mesousa]

Yeah. I can remember local Piets talking with fake Suriname accents. It has been changing for years now and suddenly pro-piet people think it's going too far. It's stupid.

Wow.....

 

[Arcia]

Well to be really accurate, they depict Moors, whom I think werd Arabs.

Oh, well then, everybody wrap it up here. It was actually a different race that was being mocked! That makes it totally okay and not racist at all now!

 

[Snow]

I remember as a kid getting the 'it's sooth from chimney' story in elementary school, and my (white) friends afterwards going 'nah, it's slaves for Saint Nicholas'. And the one black kid getting zwarte piet remarks from other kids, not necessarily maliciously, but definitely that connection was made. I also remember as a non-white kid maybe wanting to believe the sooth story more, because the alternative that it was a caricature of blacks was maybe a bit too horrible to confront as an 8 year old.

As an adult though, with both more historic and cultural perspective, it obviously has roots in racist imagery. And that doesn't mean that I think those who participate or have participated in the tradition have had anything but good intentions. But the defensiveness seems misplaced about the blackface in particular. I get where it comes from; my emotional, knee-jerk association is still that of childhood happiness. But I think it is inevitable at this point that it is going to change.

And it is supposed to be a thing for children, and I'm sure they won't care. There will be one generation who goes through a change and everyone afterwards will just grow up without the blackface and I can't see that making any difference to those kids. It's the adults who have grown up that somehow want to preserve the exact same thing for their kids, but I really don't think the racial baggage is in any way integral to the experience the actual kids have.

It's the adults having to confront that something joyful may have had racist baggage that really stings. But in general, not wanting to avoid that bit of cognitive dissonance is just not a very valid reason to hold back change.

 

[Alucrid]

Since people are so mad about the red lips, what if they got rid of them and used a much more natural make-up? Like Darrel Hammond when he played Jesse Jackson.

http://uppitynegronetwork.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/darrel-hammond1.jpg[IMG]


I think that absolves complaints on both sides.[/QUOTE]

That would just make them cosplayers

 

[Azih]

The tradition has changed dramatically in the past few decades to get rid of odious dated prejudices, it needs to keep changing to get rid of all of it. Make them rainbow coloured already and move on already Holland.

Kids don't give a shit and will adjust to the rainbow coloured version with no problems. It's adults with fuzzy warm memories that are refusing to change it. And seriously nostalgia is a crap reason to hold on to this.

 

[BeesEight]

Unless wikipedia and it's sources are wrong, Zwarte Piet is based on the depictions of blackamoors. But, I mean, the costumes themselves are obvious in their racial characteristics as well. This isn't "some chimney sweep dirtied with soot."

It's current form is based on this illustrated book from 1850:

Especially for Americans this must be so blatantly obviously racism, it's kinda embarrassing for people who are aware of international sensitivities, yet their own country is completely oblivious (like me, I'm Belgian).

The vast majority of dutch/belgian people simply don't see the skin color as an issue. I'd say that makes it more ignorant than racist. I as well just grew up with the idea of an old fart in a saints suit coming once a year to give presents to children, helped by a bunch of black guys in weird outfits entertaining the kids and giving out candy. I think, hope, that this tradition hasn't affected my attitude or underlying feelings towards black people. Hell, there is this popular tv show about Sinterklaas and Piet where Sinterklaas is basically a grumpy, childish, senile man, whereas Piet is lively, lovely, has a sense of humor, is smart, ...


But still, if you take a look back at the tradition, I mean...come on. It's racist as fuck. Old man with black helpers. Just change the damn tradition already: give the Pieten all colors of the rainbow for all I care, or just don't paint the faces, but just change it already because the racist aspect is clear, and it's upsetting quite a lot of people.

The Sinterklaas tradition has been changed a lot throughout the decades anyway. It's always happened organically/spontaneous. It's just that now some people want to force a change (rightfully so), that there's a vocal opposition against it (not surprisingly).

I think this is hitting the nail on the head. I can understand why it doesn't appear racist if you've grown up with it. There's no overt malice and it's presented simply as an element of the Christmas tradition and nothing more.

But these festivities aren't timeless, unchanging traditions and there's really no good reason to not adjust it. I mean, it seems the "covered in soot" explanation has already gained traction. Cut down on the face paint, ditch the wigs, remove the lipstick and the role can still be preserved without continuing old, racist ideologies even if they're this covert.

 

[Gustav]

Other than the whole kidnap bad children and send them back to Spain, Zwarte Piet in some cultures are portrayed as 'bogeymen' while the other time they're portrayed as oafs.

This is not convincing me that the practice and all people taking part in it are actually racist. I 100% understand that the practice is racially insensitive, offensive and that it should be abolished in its current form. But I just can't agree with it being called outright racist.

I find posts like the one below highly problematic.

Every single last one of those people wearing that blackface are absolutely disgusting, racist and abhorrent humans. How could you think its ok?

 

[WriterGK]

I don't care cancell it all together but this whole freaking discussion needs to stop. And seriouslly 90 arrests during a 'kids party'' man man I am ashamed of this country.
Speaking of traditions maybe Americans need to stop with Black Friday. Why is it even called Black Friday?

http://blackfridaydeathcount.com/

Already 7 peopled died during it and 90 got injured.

 

[TheOddOne]

You are misunderstanding me, it would never be justifiable, but these reactions seem instilled or at least inspired by the Zwarte Piet controversy.

Even then though, it's utterly bizarre that people made those comments. Those people were compelled to make racist comments at a harmless selfie.

How much does that tell you about society that those people automatically made that connection. You can’t stand there and say that people don’t make the connection between Zwarte Piet and black people, and even say it's harmless.

 

[boiled goose]

Hey its the anual zwarte piet discussion.

I'm pro keeping the tradition and I'm not a racist biggot.

And if you think those can't be combined you need to do some research on the subject instead of just reacting to pictures and articles on instinct.

I'm happy you don't consider yourself racist, but when people are telling you you're doing something that promotes racism and discrimination and you say f*** you I don't care what you think, then guess what buddy, you're racist.

 

[Mesousa]

I don't care cancell it all together but this whole freaking discussion needs to stop. And seriouslly 90 arrests during a 'kids party'' man man I am ashamed of this country.
Speaking of traditions maybe Americans need to stop with Black Friday. Why is it even called Black Friday?

http://blackfridaydeathcount.com/

Already 7 peopled died during it and 90 got injured.

You obviously do though.

Why does it hurt you so much that people are speaking up against something that offends them?

 

[Colonel Sponsz]

The imagery is clearly problematic and deeply racially insensitive, and I think on some level, a lot of people clearly sense this. When you read about how the figure has undergone a gradual change, shedding some of its offensive elements, it's clear that people get that it is a caricature, and not some figure that exists outside the phenomenon of blackface. If it wasn't perceived to be a caricature of black people, then why shed elements like accents and stupidity?

The appearance is just the last thing that has to change essentially, like others have said, lose the afros, the earrings, the big red lips and just cover their face with soot. It already fits with the story parents are telling their children about Black Petes anyway.

 

[RJT]

I was in the Croatia thread defending that use of black make-up in serious impersonations, but this... this is just just wrong. I can see why this is menacing and offensive. Just stop it, guys. Netherlands is one of the coolest places in the world, you don't need this.

 

[Souldriver]

Since people are so mad about the red lips, what if they got rid of them and used a much more natural make-up? Like Darrel Hammond when he played Jesse Jackson.

I think that absolves complaints on both sides.

Well, it would still be about black people helping an old white man. The tradition stays rooted in racism.


Then again, some people just call every kind of facepainting racist (see the cosplay thread), so you can easily veer from one extreme into another.

 

[boiled goose]

The Soot face is the worst bs I have ever heard. Wig? Red lips? Fake black accent? Yup just suit.

Make It actually look like soot and noone would give a fuck.

 

[Ortix]

I'm happy you don't consider yourself racist, but when people are telling you you're doing something that promotes racism and discrimination and you say f*** you I don't care what you think, then guess what buddy, you're racist.

Stop doing this. Saying things without knowing shit about them. Half of the Netherlands doesn't want to change the tradition. Most of all, the tradition itself doesn't promote racism, at least almost nobody over here where people actually know what it's about think about it that way.

 

[kamorra]

All of the problematic elements need to be removed all together. You can't get rid of the blackface without the afro if you want the negative connotation removed.

Well I have to admit that I fail to understand why the Afro alone could be problematic considering that there are white people who have actual Afros.

 

[WriterGK]

You obviously do though.

Why does it hurt you so much that people are speaking up against something that offends them?

It doesn't hurt me at all. I am just trying to give insides how people who actually live in The Netherlands experience it....
Like that even a lot of black people don't think its racism. And speaking up against something? I am sorry bro but in this country a lot more than that has happened. They even went to court to prosecute the City of Amsterdam and they got what they wanted. We introduced ''Clown Pieten'' who are like white with clown faces. We have yellow pieten now, rainbow pieten, Cheese Pieten and so on.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Especially for Americans this must be so blatantly obviously racism, it's kinda embarrassing for people who are aware of international sensitivities, yet their own country is completely oblivious (like me, I'm Belgian).

The vast majority of dutch/belgian people simply don't see the skin color as an issue. I'd say that makes it more ignorant than racist. I as well just grew up with the idea of an old fart in a saints suit coming once a year to give presents to children, helped by a bunch of black guys in weird outfits entertaining the kids and giving out candy. I think, hope, that this tradition hasn't affected my attitude or underlying feelings towards black people. Hell, there is this popular tv show about Sinterklaas and Piet where Sinterklaas is basically a grumpy, childish, senile man, whereas Piet is lively, lovely, has a sense of humor, is smart, ...


But still, if you take a look back at the tradition, I mean...come on. It's racist as fuck. Old man with black helpers. Just change the damn tradition already: give the Pieten all colors of the rainbow for all I care, or just don't paint the faces, but just change it already because the racist aspect is clear, and it's upsetting quite a lot of people.

The Sinterklaas tradition has been changed a lot throughout the decades anyway. It's always happened organically/spontaneous. It's just that now some people want to force a change (rightfully so), that there's a vocal opposition against it (not surprisingly).

Missed this post. Agreed.

 

[Malyse]

Since people are so mad about the red lips, what if they got rid of them and used a much more natural make-up? Like Darrel Hammond when he played Jesse Jackson.

I think that absolves complaints on both sides.

Are you dense or are you joking? I cannot tell.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Bullshit. This is from a kid's book on Zwarte Piet :

It's totes not racist! I've seen black females with teh big lips! Stahp race baiting! Seriously if we stopped talking about racism it'd totes go away.

 

[Azih]

I was in the Croatia thread defending that use of black make-up in serious impersonations, but this... this is just just wrong. I can see why this is menacing and offensive. Just stop it, guys. Netherlands is one of the coolest places in the world, you don't need this.

Yeah I honestly think that even with a nuanced view on stuff like this Zwarte Piet falls squarely on the wrong side of the fence. It isn't cosplaying specific characters. It's maintaining an old and racist caricature of dark skinned people.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Why would you go this route of sarcasm when you haven't added anything of note either? :|



Isn't this a tradition rooted in catering to children though? I'm not entirely sure how you can be for a protesting but then have issues with it taking place during the festivity. I mean I'm pretty sure the target audience are the parents that pass on the tradition to the kids.

If it is just parents you'll probably reach plenty of them when you are protesting at different times. I get that they rather protest at the parade themselves, but you also had a group that was protesting for Zwarte Pieten. Have them both near the parade and you have security concerns at a festivity for children.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I don't care cancell it all together but this whole freaking discussion needs to stop. And seriouslly 90 arrests during a 'kids party'' man man I am ashamed of this country.
Speaking of traditions maybe Americans need to stop with Black Friday. Why is it even called Black Friday?

http://blackfridaydeathcount.com/

Already 7 peopled died during it and 90 got injured.

It's called Black Friday because retailers "go into the black" (i.e. make a profit) due to all of the purchases that day.

Hope that helps.

 

[way more]

This is not convincing me that the practice and all people taking part in it are actually racist. I 100% understand that the practice is racially insensitive, offensive and that it should be abolished in its current form. But I just can't agree with it being called outright racist.

Why do we always have to have someone agree that's it's wrong and but calling it "racist" would be barbaric? Does something happen once an act goes from "horribly insensitive" to "racist?"

 

[WriterGK]

It's called Black Friday because retailers "go into the black" (i.e. make a profit) due to all of the purchases that day.

Hope that helps.

Thnx. That helps. But people actually die during those Black Fridays as I pointed out...

 

[boiled goose]

Stop doing this. Saying things without knowing shit about them. Half of the Netherlands doesn't want to change the tradition. Most of all, the tradition itself doesn't promote racism, at least almost nobody over here where people actually know what it's about think about it that way.

Umm. You have people protesting in your country dude. Most people? Argument from popularity fallacy does not mean it is not racist. Come on. Try harder..

 

[Gustav]

Why do we always have to have someone agree that's it's wrong and but calling it "racist" would be barbaric? Does something happen once an act goes from "horribly insensitive" to "racist?"

Because then shit like this happens:

Every single last one of those people wearing that blackface are absolutely disgusting, racist and abhorrent humans. How could you think its ok?

 

[AkuMifune]

Why do we always have to have someone agree that's it's wrong and but calling it "racist" would be barbaric? Does something happen once an act goes from "horribly insensitive" to "racist?"

Because then people who support the tradition might have to look in the mirror and feel guilty.

 

[Nachtmaer]

Missed this post. Agreed.

As did I. Pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[Slayven]

Why do we always have to have someone agree that's it's wrong and but calling it "racist" would be barbaric? Does something happen once an act goes from "horribly insensitive" to "racist?"

Cause being called racist is worse than racism. I think because they know it's totes shameful And don't want to feel bad about it
.

 

[Y-Z]

I just want to leave this report here:
Zero incidents at Rotterdam, the most cultural diverse city in the Netherlands with a arab Mayor and with a soon to be less then 50% white population. Everybody is celebrating this. White, black, asians etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1mFzGr0wvM

It's seen as more of a Amsterdam problem here. There are only 13 complaints on a 18 million population and most of the protesters are extremists on the left side of the political field who want to be on tv. Proof of that is found here.