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[StalkerUKCG]

I saw the sentiment that non-white playable characters in The Order: 1886 would be jarring

Black people have been in the UK since at least the 16th century perhaps even earlier if Roman Britain had Numedian slaves.

That said the characters in The Order are Knights of the round with an immortality/longevity serum so they wouldn't be black but the surrounding characters could be. A more modern Black character from West Africa for example would fit the story rather well.

 

[jmood88]

What if the people creating the game's story and characters want the demographics to be a certain way? So in this case perhaps they wanted an all white lead cast. Is it right of us to stifle their freedom of expression and guilt trip them for not including a diverse cast?

First of all, no one is stifling anything. Second of all, like I said in the other thread, this forum wouldn't exist if we weren't allowed to question the decisions that developers make, yet when it comes to diversity in gaming, we are, for various ridiculous and contradictory reasons, expected to sit down and be ok with everything. Some developers want fast travel in their games but that doesn't stop people from starting multi-page threads about how they disagree with the decision. Some developers want their games to be "cinematic" yet that doesn't stop people from complaining. Sure, there are some people who say that they'll take what the developer gives them because it's their vision but it doesn't happen to the same degree that it does when diversity in representation of characters is mentioned.

 

[Lime]

Games developed in the US and Europe feature mostly white American and European characters, like game developed in Japan feature mostly Japanese characters, and so on.

I tend to make characters that look like me in games with character creation. This is the cause.

Did Dostoevsky have to be a woman to tell the story of Anna Karenina? Creating fiction or stories or worlds do not require actual experience to try to get a sense of different lives and identites.

Or what other people in another thread wrote a couple of days ago:

And the idea that writers should write what they know and diverse people will write diverse characters doesn't jive with me.

Everyone is just people man. A good writer will want to write new and varied characters. And I want to experience new and varied characters.

Pretty much, anyone can write the diverse characters, that's the part that makes them interesting as a person/character, they represent a viewpoint you may not be aware of.

Can we all agree that the write what you know excuse for only white male protags is complete bullshit? Only the worst writers can only write from a single perspective. I mean, Stephen King has never been a teenage girl, but Carrie is a classic.

 

[jackissocool]

Black people have been in the UK since at least the 16th century perhaps even earlier if Roman Britain had Numedian slaves.

That said the characters in The Order are Knights of the round with an immortality/longevity serum so they wouldn't be black but the surrounding characters could be. A more modern Black character from West Africa for example would fit the story rather well.

We don't know that the surrounding characters aren't black.

 

[BigDes]

Issues like this always seem to me to stem from a failure in education rather than random acts of tokenism by the developers.

Take The Order for example, its based on Victorian London. The British Empire at the time of Victoria was the largest empire there has ever been, it stretched over huge swathes of th e planet. The British Empire was also largely focused on trade. London was the wealthiest, most important and more importantly openly cosmopolitan city in Europe and quite possibly the world at this time. Complaining that there is a black/chinese/asian/jewish etc man being a main character in a game set in this time as being unrealistic really just shows how limited our teaching of urban history is.

 

[Lime]

Complaining that there is a black/chinese/asian/jewish etc man being a main character in a game set in this time as being unrealistic really just shows how limited our teaching of urban history is.

It also shows how much people's understanding of history come from entertainment products, especially film. People have formed a lot of their impression of the medieval period on entertainment and consequently think Black people were nowhere to be found in that period. Same thing with Westerns - i.e. a lot of people think Cowboys were a bunch of white dudes, but in fact a lot of Black people were cowboys as well.

I bet that the majority of people who use the "but in that period everyone were White!" have no particularly special knowledge or insight into history, but have formed their beliefs on the ingrained reproduction of white supremacy that we see is so strongly entrenched in Western entertainment media.

 

[DevilFox]

It would be cool if you read the thread before contributing. Your point has already been addressed and debunked a couple of times already.

No, it isn't. Black people were there, well thank you, but it was a huge minority. I quote myself:

About The Order: 1886, the point looks stupid to me. We still know little about the story but it seems that The Order is linked to aristocracy. It's way easier, for that period, that 4 Knights of The Order are white. How is this a problem? Also, they've something like 100+ years, and even if I'm not an expert of the story of London I guess that if a black aristocrat (and soldier) was hard to find in 1800, in 1700 or before was even harder. And indeed, a quick research on the web reveals that black people were very few in that period (1800s), most descended from freed slaves and colonial subjects, not very different from any movie/tv show I've seen with the same location and period. Also, the game feautures class conflict, which we are against I suppose.
The lore of The Order: 1886 seems very loyal to the Victorian London we know. If you've followed RaD on Twitter with their pics or even the interviews, you'll see how much they care about details. What they did is leave the reality as we know it and adding this secret Order and beasts, with the steampunk touch. To me, this is how you create an interesting world.
Sure, they coul've changed more about the world, and save a lot of time and money looking for detailed historical data, but they choose to do so. Now, to complain about skin colors at this point sounds almost disrespectful and whining.

On a more generic note, ...

What's the chance that a black person could take part in this Order during the 18th century? Not much. No one would have a problem if they were there but why is it a problem not to have them? It's not like there're no black people at all in the games, we've just seen 4 of them but I'm pretty sure we'll see black people somewhere. Pretending they have to be in the main cast.. it just doesn't make any sense. I really cannot understand how this can be a problem and I'm forcing myself, I swear.

 

[TGO]

I saw the sentiment that non-white playable characters in The Order: 1886 would be jarring, yet werewolves and fantasy weapons in the setting (inspired by Victorian London) were okay. This notion pops up occasionally here and I wanted to hear what people thought.

Not sure if serious?
Victorian London and werewolves go hand-in-hand, non-white characters would definitely be around during that period but I don't think you'll like their representation for that period, RAD probably just avoided it all together by not including non-white characters.
But I understand your point, they could just do it and pretend everyone was seen equal back then.

 

[Lime]

It's not like there're no black people at all in the games, we've just seen 4 of them but I'm pretty sure we'll see black people somewhere.

There is hardly any. Especially as main characters.

Pretending they have to be in the main cast.. it just doesn't make any sense. I really cannot understand how this can be a problem and I'm forcing myself, I swear

Read this:

You may feel this way. Others don't. To other people, seeing themselves in media is significant. Read this article.

or this academic article from 2012

 

[UrbanRats]

No, it isn't. Black people were there, well thank you, but it was a huge minority. I quote myself:



What's the chance that a black person could take part in this Order during the 18th century? Not much. No one would have a problem if they were there but why is it a problem not to have them? It's not like there're no black people at all in the games, we've just seen 4 of them but I'm pretty sure we'll see black people somewhere. Pretending they have to be in the main cast.. it just doesn't make any sense. I really cannot understand how this can be a problem and I'm forcing myself, I swear.

Didn't know stories were written with statistics in mind, instead of narrative potential.

Not sure if serious?
Victorian London and werewolves go hand-in-hand, non-white characters would definitely be around during that period but I don't think you'll like their representation for that period, RAD probably just avoided it all together by not including non-white characters.
But I understand your point, they could just do it and pretend everyone was seen equal back then.

The Order seems to be treating mature themes of classism in the era, i don't think racism would be much more taboo.
Infact, i don't think you can even avoid it, if you want to take that part of the story seriously.

 

[jmood88]

It also shows how much people's understanding of history come from entertainment products, especially film. People have formed a lot of their impression of the medieval period on entertainment and consequently think Black people were nowhere to be found in that period. Same thing with Westerns - i.e. a lot of people think Cowboys were a bunch of white dudes, but in fact a lot of Black people were cowboys as well.

I bet that the majority of people who use the "but in that period everyone were White!" have no particularly special knowledge or insight into history, but have formed their beliefs on the ingrained reproduction of white supremacy that we see is so strongly entrenched in Western entertainment media.

And they'll be the first to talk about how little it matters that entertainment have better representation.

 

[Darkangel]

The late 19th century was actually one of the lower points of the black population in Great Britain. The end of slavery lead to a decline in black immigration, with only a few thousand living in the country by World War I.

When it comes to historical settings I generally don't support diversity for diversity's sake. Ya you could have a black main character in Victorian England, but it really wouldn't make sense given the society, culture, and demographics of the time. Should a game set in 19th century Japan be blasted for not including European traders?

Do these people also find a women being one of the main protagonist jarring because I can assure you in Victoria England that is not what a women's role would have been

Honestly yes, I do find it a little jarring.

 

[Lime]

And they'll be the first to talk about how little it matters that entertainment have better representation.

This is even worse: People stating that representation doesn't matter to them - they'll shout how much they don't care about representation, i.e. trying to tell the ones who do actually care about seeing themselves in the media they consume that they should shut up and stop rocking the boat.

If you don't care about representation, then don't fucking join the conversation. Like someone else wrote earlier:

The point is:

Just because you personally don't care about the race of protags in a game, does not render the discussion of such a topic irrelevant.

Plus, you cannot use such a sentiment as a legit response to the topic of Black characters being underrepresented and/or misrepresented and typecasted. You not caring is not the point of the thread. That's like walking into a Baskin-Robins talmbout "I hate ice cream". Every person in that parlor is gon' look at you stupid...

 

[bishoptl]

What if the people creating the game's story and characters want the demographics to be a certain way? So in this case perhaps they wanted an all white lead cast. Is it right of us to stifle their freedom of expression and guilt trip them for not including a diverse cast?

Weak excuse. All other aspects of games are laid bare for scrutiny on this board. Game play mechanics, weapons, trailer music, frame rate. This is no different. Diversity or lack thereof is not a special snowflake that somehow needs to be beyond critique.

 

[Palculator]

You may feel this way. Others don't. To other people, seeing themselves in media is significant. Read this article.

or this academic article from 2012

Thanks for linking that academic article, been reading through this using University access. I'll have to plead ignorance on the subject matter as I was not aware there was a thing such as "Whiteness" or "whiteness scholars." (Guessing my skin color is pretty clear now...)

Concerning create-a-characters it seems obvious to me that every race should be represented there. Having the player define their character is sort of their point, so at least every configuration of skin color, height, hair etc. possible in the real world should have some equivalent during character creation. If a player feels his character's or his own race is very important then I can see the satisfaction in creating such a character.

However, for characters crafted by the developers themselves I still feel the focus on race is somewhat reductionist. Considering the other article you linked, Adewale being black alone is not what makes him interesting, is it? It's interesting because he's black during a time of white oppression and is acting against that, hence providing some catharsis for the people who are still affected or feel affected. His context gives meaning to his skin color. Hence my overall viewpoint concerning created characters and stories is still to evaluate them as a whole within their respective universe. Something which we can't really do for The Order, yet.

 

[NEO0MJ]

They're jarring to me in that they're so rare that I'm really surprised whenever I see a brown/black character in a fantasy setting. I have no problem with them showing up, though.

 

[DevilFox]

There is hardly any. Especially as main characters.



Read this:

I read that already, it's not that pertinent because you're not seeing the whole picture, have you even read my post? Contextualizes your point.
Have you played the game to say there's hardly any black character? Even so, would that pisses you off considering the time and location? Apparently, yes, because you're not represented and this is what I don't understand, I don't need colors to feel represented, so I'm calling myself out, as you asked.
I don't have anything to add anyway, it looks like asking for a step forward is too much.

Didn't know stories were written with statistics in mind, instead of narrative potential.
.

What potential? We know so little but the main theme of The Order isn't racism, they never mentioned it.
I have to force something in my story for the sake of the potential now? Please :|

 

[Lime]

Thanks for linking that academic article, been reading through this using University access. I'll have to plead ignorance on the subject matter as I was not aware there was a thing such as "Whiteness" or "whiteness scholars." (Guessing my skin color is pretty clear now...)

Concerning create-a-characters it seems obvious to me that every race should be represented there. Having the player define their character is sort of their point, so at least every configuration of skin color, height, hair etc. possible in the real world should have some equivalent during character creation. If a player feels his character's or his own race is very important then I can see the satisfaction in creating such a character.

However, for characters crafted by the developers themselves I still feel the focus on race is somewhat reductionist. Considering the other article you linked, Adewale being black alone is not what makes him interesting, is it? It's interesting because he's black during a time of white oppression and is acting against that, hence providing some catharsis for the people who are still affected or feel affected. His context gives meaning to his skin color. Hence my overall viewpoint concerning created characters and stories is still to evaluate them as a whole within their respective universe. Something which we can't really do for The Order, yet.

And that's the point: usually we just have a bunch of white dudes go into all sorts of situations or histories or countries where they are the only White dude in a sea of foreigners/non-White people. Their skin color is completely arbitrary to the narrative, it serves no function, it has no internal importance. In these simple, dumb stories (which we have a lot of in video games), skin color hardly matters to the garbage stories we are exposed to. As such, being "black alone" has no impact on the conventional video game we are talking about.

It shouldn't be a justification to have someone that isn't White in your video game. Such a thing speaks volumes on how default the White protagonist is, because they never themselves need justifications for being who they are - they simply are. Why can't other people be like that? And how can video games, even single instances, not contribute to normalizing a state of the world where it isn't weird or irregular to see a regular ass protagonist who just happens to be something that isn't the default White Male we see in tons of every other fucking entertainment products.

 

[jackissocool]

And they'll be the first to talk about how little it matters that entertainment have better representation.

I think I've made it pretty clear that's not the case, if you actually read my posts.

 

[Lime]

? Apparently, yes, because you're not represented and this is what I don't understand, I don't need colors to feel represented, so I'm calling myself out, as you asked.
I don't have anything to add anyway, it looks like asking for a step forward is too much.

I have told you that I care about representation in video games. You have told me you do not care about representation in video games. Why does it matter to you that I care? If you don't care, what are you even doing in this thread?

You're basically walking into a Baskin-Robins and yelling "I hate ice cream". Do you see why that is pretty weird?

 

[jmood88]

I think I've made it pretty clear that's not the case, if you actually read my posts.

I have no idea why you think all of my posts on this topic are about you but here's a hint: they're not. If what I'm saying doesn't apply to you, then move on.

 

[The Technomancer]

I bet that the majority of people who use the "but in that period everyone were White!" have no particularly special knowledge or insight into history, but have formed their beliefs on the ingrained reproduction of white supremacy that we see is so strongly entrenched in Western entertainment media.

And this is really what it kind of comes down to. Media begets media.

 

[Black Mantis]

Slaves

In fact it would probably be more realistic for one of the protagonists to have a young black "squire" who would be sent out first if werewolves started showing up

They wouldn't necessarily be slaves, check link below.

http://www.theguardian.com/artandde...orians-photography-exhibition-rivington-place

 

[Portugeezer]

It's true, warewolves and what have you is all fantasy.

I think they could explain having a black knight/protagonist in the Order, just like the warewolves (half breeds) are explained.

I don't think people should be offended by some people suggesting that a hypothetical black protagonist should be put into context; it's the least I would expect, should they have a black protagonist, given the games setting.

 

[Lime]

It's true, warewolves and what have you is all fantasy.

I think they could explain having a black knight/protagonist in the Order, just like the warewolves (half breeds) are explained.

I don't think people should be offended by some people suggesting that a hypothetical black protagonist should be put into context; it's the least I would expect, should they have a black protagonist, given the games setting.

Why do Black characters need explanation, when White characters don't?

 

[Giever]

No not really. Obviously they might not be filled to the brim with different ethnicities but it is ridiculous to think that Victorian London was entirely devoid of any other ethnicity than white.

There were a number of other ethnicities in Victorian London. Not all of them, obviously, but there was more than just white people. So, please don't imply that I was trying to argue that it's reasonable to want only white people in The Order.

This is a better explanation of how I feel on the topic, which I posted at the end of one page, so I'll post it again so that you can understand my point:

On the one hand, the amount of racial diversity in games is abysmal. There are so many games out there that could've included more minorities, both as NPCs, and playable characters (main, or otherwise). Many of the excuses trotted out to justify the lack of this stuff are just ridiculous bullshit.

On the other hand, I don't think that, in every case, citing historical accuracy as a driving reason behind why your game has made certain decisions regarding which races and ethnicities show up, is bullshit. Regarding The Order, as has already been stated in the thread, there were plenty of black people around Victorian London.

I don't really know much about the game, and am not interested in it, however, given what kind of game it seems to be (AAA, attempting to be srs, cinematic, etc.), I don't think it's unreasonable for the developers to not want to just say "lol fuk it, ur just electrocutin sum werewolves, dudez" and not care about anything else whatsoever. I can imagine some goofy indie game about fighting werewolves with advanced technology in Victorian London including all sorts of characters, racially and ethnically, with no real need to explain their place in the world.

But given the kind of game The Order seems to be, I do think it's fair to expect that certain issues of the time would be touched on. It would be a bit disjointed to have these high society white dudes just chumming along with some black dude or lady, as we all pretend that serious-fucking-racism didn't exist at that time and place.

Yes, they could just include characters like that and not bother to represent any of that awful shit along with it, but it just strikes me as an odd choice if the game is meant to be this relatively historically accurate setting, with a few things changed around.

Basically, what I'm saying is: most excuses attempting to justify the lack of diversity in video games are bullshit. Claiming the need for historical accuracy in a lot of cases is bullshit. But I don't think it is in every single fucking instance, and I do find it a little bit unreasonable for people to just roll their eyes at any attempt to explain why "particular game X" might have made certain design choices that it made regarding these sorts of things.

The only reason it's seen as a problem for specific games is because the lack of diversity in video games is a gigantic industry-wide problem. If 95% of all games had awesomely diverse casts with lots of great representation, I don't imagine people would be particularly upset with some games occasionally choosing to value certain accuracies in their projects. But since that isn't the case in the industry, and since people do make a lot of bullshit excuses, I guess some of the reasonable ones end up blending in with the rest of the bullshit.

 

[UncleSporky]

If I was playing an Assassin's Creed set in Japan and there were obvious white people walking around, that would weird me out. If I was playing a Civil War game and there were no black people anywhere that would weird me out too.

 

[Palculator]

And that's the point: usually we just have a bunch of white dudes go into all sorts of situations or histories or countries where they are the only White dude in a sea of foreigners/non-White people. Their skin color is completely arbitrary to the narrative, it serves no function, it has no internal importance. In these simple, dumb stories (which we have a lot of in video games), skin color hardly matters to the garbage stories we are exposed to. As such, being "black alone" has no impact on the conventional video game we are talking about.

It shouldn't be a justification to have someone that isn't White in your video game. Such a thing speaks volumes on how default the White protagonist is, because they never themselves need justifications for being who they are - they simply are. Why can't other people be like that? And how can video games, even single instances, not contribute to normalizing a state of the world where it isn't weird or irregular to see a regular ass protagonist who just happens to be something that isn't the default White Male we see in tons of every other fucking entertainment products.

I'm sorry if my phrasing suggested me needing a contextual justification for Adewale to be black. I meant that him being black doesn't mean much without the context. I wouldn't need extra reasons for non-white races to be represented, especially in stories where race does not matter. I've never wondered why Eli Vance was black and if he was white or asian or anything I'd still like Half Life just the same.

I'm still grateful for the insights I gained from your link (and its references I'm gonna check out) but in the end I kinda just enjoy video games, regardless of race :3

 

[kamorra]

I never felt the need to relate to the main character in a videogame so I really don't give a fuck if the protagonist is black, white, green, a man, a woman or a raccoon.

 

[petethepanda]

You don't need to justify diversity.

Yup.

 

[Lime]

I'm sorry if my phrasing suggested me needing a contextual justification for Adewale to be black. I meant that him being black doesn't mean much without the context. I wouldn't need extra reasons for non-white races to be represented, especially in stories where race does not matter. I've never wondered why Eli Vance was black and if he was white or asian or anything I'd still like Half Life just the same.

I'm sorry I misunderstood your post then. You're right that it makes sense to have someone whose heritage or situation prescribes skin color/ethnicity/nationality, such as Adewale. You're right about HL2, that's a pretty good point in regards to the characters within it - i.e. I never thought about the Vance father as Black or anything, he simply was.

I'm still grateful for the insights I gained from your link (and its references I'm gonna check out) but in the end I kinda just enjoy video games, regardless of race :3

Thanks, I really appreciate engaging the conversation with you. If you want more articles concerning matters of race (or representation in general) in video games, let me know, there's plenty more of where that Dietrich article came from.

And it's perfectly fine not to care about representation - a lot of people do, regardless of their skin color or ethnicity or religion or gender or sexuality or cultural heritage, etc.

 

[Portugeezer]

Why do Black characters need explanation, when White characters don't?

They don't need to. I am saying it is something that could be explained, as some people have inferred that it wouldn't suit the setting.

 

[Kinyou]

Why do Black characters need explanation, when White characters don't?

Because it would apparently be unusual for the setting? If the next Assassin's Creed plays in ancient Egypt and you play a white dude I'd want an explanation for that as well.

 

[Black Mantis]

fantasy settings it's fine tbh. it's great when they have their separate regions too like UrbanRats said.

in historical settings it would be weird to see other ethnicities as higher up though (unless it's set in those respective countries). like i don't want to watch Rome and see a Black senator, it would just be jarring.

but shit like Elder Scrolls, The Order or Dragon Age, go nuts with the skin tones.

Not a senator, but...

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta...s-of-rome-roman-emperor-caracalla-kara-kalla/

 

[Lime]

Because it would apparently be unusual for the setting?

Why would it be unusual? As already established, people who were identified as Black existed in London in the 19th century. And that's not even mentioning other people of non-White color.

If the next Assassin's Creed plays in ancient Egypt and you play a white dude I'd want an explanation for that as well.

You should really go see that new Ridley Scott film with Moses

 

[Giever]

Why do Black characters need explanation, when White characters don't?

Depending on the subject matter of the game, and the kind of game it's aiming to be, both need explanation. It's just that the white characters in The Order are explained by nature of their place in the historical context. Black characters could easily be (and should be) in the game as well. They were around in Victorian London. But, assuming the game is trying to be accurate (minus werewolves & technology), and assuming the black character actually is playable and/or works alongside the other main characters, then there ought to be some acknowledgement of why likely racist individuals would be working alongside this black dude or lady whom they probably don't like.

I don't think it's racist or problematic to feel that way about certain specific games, depending on their aspirations regarding historical accuracy, or how serious they're trying to be, etc. Is it similarly problematic for me to be bothered with Jake Gyllenhaal starring in that Prince of Persia movie? Because that's bothersome as well, for the same reasons.

 

[Kinyou]

Why would it be unusual? As already established, people who weren't White existed in London in the 19th century. And that's not even mentioning other people of non-White color.

Well, as someone said on the page they were really quite the minority. So if one of them rose to such a position of power (being part of some steampunk order) I'd imagine there would be something unique about his/her rise to that position. Unless the devs say this takes place in a fantasy london where no racism exists and everyone has equal chances.

You should really go see that new Ridley Scott film with Moses

No thanks, I rather not.

 

[RedSwirl]

There were rather a lot of black people in Victorian England, largely due to the whole "Empire" thing we had going on back then.

Well there you go.

 

[Lime]

I concur, Griever. That's pretty accurate and nuanced.

The thing working against this is that I expect, based on past empirical evidence in video game narratives, that the story will be subpar and that a game with Werewolves and laser guns or whatever they are has license to refrain from justifying having a non-White character in the game.

But we're singling out a symptom of the problem and it isn't something that is exclusive to the Order.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

It's baffling how many people earlier in this thread assumed black people and other minorities just weren't around in Victorian London. How laughably naive can you possible be?

 

[DevilFox]

Why would it be unusual? As already established, people who weren't White existed in London in the 19th century. And that's not even mentioning other people of non-White color.



You should really go see that new Ridley Scott film with Moses

You keep repeating the same things over and over again, I'm starting to think you're totally ignoring what the others are saying because no one said black people did not exist, but aristocrats before the 1886 (let's remember again that some of these guys have 100+ years)? That would be harder and it would need an explanation because most of the other black people were slaves around that time, even the atlantic slave trade was still active around the 18th century.
How a black man could have taken part in The Order? I'm not saying it would be impossible, but harder, and whining about this is just out of place.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Why do Black characters need explanation, when White characters don't?

--->

White people can be anything.

Black people must be historically accurate because reasons.

There you go. xD

Honestly, white characters do need explanations... all depends on the settings. If there's a white character in Romance of the 3 Kingdoms I sure as hell want an explanation as to how they ended up there. A black person in Victorian England? No, and I wish people would stop acting like they'd be as rare as space aliens.

 

[AESplusF]

People being defensive of the game they like without really thinking about what they're saying.

 

[Giever]

I concur, Griever. That's pretty accurate and nuanced.

The thing working against this is that I expect, based on past empirical evidence in video game narratives, that the story will be subpar and that a game with Werewolves and laser guns or whatever they are has license to refrain from justifying having a non-White character in the game.

I totally agree that they have license to, really, have whatever they want in their game. They could easily include characters of any race playable, without explanation, and I would be fine with that. I just think it's a little silly to focus on The Order when: 1) We don't really know what it will be like yet, and 2) There is a plethora of more egregious games which don't even have any excuse for not including playable characters of various races.

I guess I'm just sort of an idealist about these topics. I want all of the games that have no excuse to forego various minorities to include them. And once that happens, we'll have like 90%+ of our games with great diversity, then it would be fine to have period-piece type games that explore issues like these, and can justify including real-world racial nuances of the time. I guess I just think it should be fine anyway, because we shouldn't hold specific games or developers accountable for issues on an industry-wide scale. But I know that view is problematic in its own ways.

But we're singling out a symptom of the problem and it isn't something that is exclusive to the Order.

Yeah, I get that. And I'm not trying to be off topic by focusing solely on The Order. It's just that I've already given my feelings on the topic's question, so I'm now just responding to posts I feel I have a response to (which have been mainly about The Order, since that's what most people are still talking about).

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

You keep repeating the same things over and over again, I'm starting to think you're totally ignoring what the others are saying because no one said black people did not exist, but aristocrats before the 1886 (let's remember again that some of these guys have 100+ years)? That would be harder and it would need an explanation because most of the other black people were slaves around that time, even the atlantic slave trade was still active around the 18th century.
How a black man could have taken part in The Order? I'm not saying it would be impossible, but harder, and whining about this is just out of place.

I think now it's you who's trying too hard to think of reasons why it wouldn't work. A black character could be hand waved away as "the new guy" since seeing black aristocrats in the 1800s London wasn't so crazy. Regardless, this whole conversation on the Order's narrative is ridiculously premature, as there may end up being black civilians/other members of the order.

I will never understand the other people in the previous thread trying to historically justify why black and other minorities wouldn't be present. It's as bad as the Assassin's Creed Unity excuse for French accents.

 

[Famassu]

I think in the example given of The Order, it really depends on historical context. I think it's absolutely possible in that game, but given that there is at least a partially historical setting it needs to be believable in that context.

This is a BS reason to not include people of color in historical games. There were actually a lot more non-white people around in the past than is portrayed by Hollywood/TV.

 

[Gattsu25]

But, assuming the game is trying to be accurate (minus werewolves & technology)

Don't take this the wrong way but this part of the post got a laugh out of me.

I think that's the entire point of this thread. Why are we so capable of accepting things like that but not better race representation?

Why are we so accepting of this game creator's obscene technological advancements and fantasy creatures in a period setting yet unfazed that they somehow felt the need to draw the line at a scrict adherance to realistic depictions of its centuries old protagonists.

Its one of those questions that even I didn't notice until this thread. My initial reaction was similar to many: "Of course the protagonists are all white because they are invincible centuries old Englishmen in A WORLD WITH FUCKING DEAD SPACE WEAPONS AND WEREWOLVES..? Wait, why the hell was I buying the excuse of historical accuracy before?"

 

[EMT0]

Why do Black characters need explanation, when White characters don't?

In this case, because this specific video game is based on a period where it'd be anachronistic to have a black character high up in the chain WITHOUT an explanation. I don't think it needs to be explained that of course, there were important black figures in existence during the Victorian era, which was the time of the Sokoto Caliphate, the Ashanti, the Abolitionist movement in the US, etc., but in Britain? Not so much, sadly.

Yeah, you could have a black protagonist here. Without a doubt. I don't think anyone here will shout you down that a black character as a protagonist is impossible here, but it WOULD need an explanation so that it jives with the world the game is based on(a historical setting, where things weren't great by any means for pretty much any minority).

But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for an explanation as to why there's a black protagonist in Victorian England that's playing up its Victorian setting with the aristocracy, industrial changes, and blatant racism of the time working against a black protagonist in a video game based in a historical setting, unless the narrative is trying to tackle the obstacles a black person would face in Victorian England. Frankly, I'm not expecting good things out of The Order. So I'd consider it a small blessing that we won't have to deal with awkward racism hamfisted onto the game. White characters don't need an explanation in Victorian England because....yeah. But you want a video game in the Sokoto Caliphate with a white person being anything but a) A British diplomat or b) A product of the slave trade from the Barbary States? I'd want an explanation too. Precisely because it's a historical setting.

If we're talking outside of the box of black protagonist and just black characters, with respect to Victorian England? Yeah, I'd expect a few. But if we're matching the setting, the depictions are going to be hard to stomach to any person who believes in equality. Because if there's two things we can take away from The Order, it's that it's in love with its setting, as bleh as I find Victorian nostalgia, and that it's going to be graphics porn, with everything else being good best left as a big question mark.

 

[DevilFox]

I think now it's you who's trying too hard to think of reasons why it wouldn't work. A black character could be hand waved away as "the new guy" since black aristocrats in the 1800s London wasn't so crazy. Regardless, this whole conversation on the Order's narrative is ridiculously premature, as there may end up being black civilians/other members of the order.

I will never understand the other people in the previous thread trying to historically justify why black and other minorities wouldn't be present. It's as bad as the Assassin's Creed Unity excuse for French accents.

That's what I said, there could be other black people but Lime said "There is hardly any. Especially as main characters. " and I don't get how he can know. He want to be represented, and I don't get this one either.
Black aristocrats compared to white ones were a huge minority. It makes sense that 4 (four, not even all of them, we don't know anything yet) are white. They could be black, orange or green and that could make sense too. What doesn't make sense to me is all this whining, like the complaints about a full male team in FFXV, I mean come on.

Don't take this the wrong way but this part of the post got a laugh out of me.

I think that's the entire point of this thread. Why are we so capable of accepting things like that but not better race representation?

Why are we so accepting of this game creator's obscene technological advancements and fantasy creatures in a period setting yet unfazed that they somehow felt the need to draw the line at a scrict adherance to realistic depictions of its centuries old protagonists.

Its one of those questions that even I didn't notice until this thread. My initial reaction was similar to many: "Of course the protagonists are all white because they are invincible centuries old Englishmen in A WORLD WITH FUCKING DEAD SPACE WEAPONS AND WEREWOLVES..? Wait, why the hell was I buying the excuse of historical accuracy before?"

Because it's the definition of steampunk, if I'm correct. You leave the reality as it was, adding new tech and a bit of fantasy. If you change something else, you're not portraying a real world, hence it's not steampunk.
edit: and "DEAD SPACE WEAPONS" .. lol. They tried to justify all of them too. It's one of the few things we know, a research for details. Leave them this credit at least >.<

 

[Hyperzephyrian]

My problem with this...... Black is not a distinct ethnic makeup. It is a social construct used to describe a persons skin tone.

"Black" describes more phenotypic features than skin tone. But fine, I'll give you what you want: Septimius Severus did not look like sub-Saharan African peoples.