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[XaosWolf]

Did the nintendo network fall dead in europe? I can't enter eshop, miiverse and can't even get into the smash lobby to see if my problem is gone or i should call my isp. It's dead for me.

I remember seeing a Maintenance notification on the eShop late last night, but unfortunately cannot tell you the date and time.

But it may be that?

Spoiler

Super Helpful Post: Complete

 

[abstract alien]

First smash game I've ever played. I got the game yesterday and went to training for about 6 hours trying to find characters I like. I found quite a few and decided to try my hand online. Played 4 player smash and got destroyed for about 2 hours straight lol. Probably not the best idea to go online in a game I've never played before but what started as initially testing online to 'see if it works' turned into 2 hours of getting destroyed. Well at least I learnt stuff. Something tells me I should probably get accustomed to single player before going online and thinking stuff I learned in practice for a few hours will make me suddenly good Enjoying the game a lot though

Ah yes, this is how it should me. Let the games begin! Welcome to the club fellow smasher.

 

[ArynCrinn]

Mechanically, chess is very simple. That's what he was getting at.

Yes, "mechanically" moving pieces on a board is simple, but " Chess" is far more in practice than just moving pieces around a board. That's why we call it " Chess" instead of the striped down barebones concept "moving pieces around a board"...

Otherwse, we might as well say no game is "complex" since your really just pressing buttons and moving sticks at certain times and in certain directions. :\ The realization of concept vs. instances.

Just like a "forest" doesn't exist, it's just a lot of trees and foliage in a large area clumped together... The "forest is a concept" we use to describe a lot of trees in a area.

Lest we not forget the definition of "complexity" - Do we consider what takes place in a Chess match or even Dark Souls, Super Meat Boy, Smash4 "intricate" by design?

 

[Raxus]

Man my level 38 amiibos are kicking my ass now. Feels bad man

I feel I get input lag on the wireless controller. Anyone else have this issue?

 

[Orniletter]

Anyone else having problems with redeeming your EU club Nintendo code ?

I can´t get it to work

 

[Geminosity]

First smash game I've ever played. I got the game yesterday and went to training for about 6 hours trying to find characters I like. I found quite a few and decided to try my hand online. Played 4 player smash and got destroyed for about 2 hours straight lol. Probably not the best idea to go online in a game I've never played before but what started as initially testing online to 'see if it works' turned into 2 hours of getting destroyed. Well at least I learnt stuff. Something tells me I should probably get accustomed to single player before going online and thinking stuff I learned in practice for a few hours will make me suddenly good Enjoying the game a lot though

Heh, well it's worth just getting to grips with moving and attacking first, which the single player will help with, though the AI won't help much with strategy unless you're setting the AI to specific behaviours to work on certain situations :3
I made much the same mistake with Palutena by jumping online with her before i'd really got to grips with her and lost a lot of matches initially. The temptation to jump back on my vet (Zelda) and show people I knew what i was doing was always at the back of my mind, but for the most part I toughed it out and got the hang of her
Some people do better jumping in the deep end though ;D

The key things are:
a) You're noticing new tricks or identifying problems and working to find solutions for them
b) You gotta have fun :3
As long as both those are true, do whatever you must

 

[Spainkiller]

Something tells me ArynCrinn isn't the life of the party.

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

The AI's a f***ing asshole in free-for-alls. It always feels like they focus on you way more than eachother.

Every time, in every mode.

Anyway, you only have to beat it on Normal (or higher) in 80 seconds (1 minute and 20 seconds).

I normally focus on Dark Samus first, Ridley's the easiest since his attacks are telegraphed.

Up tilt, all day erry day. Seriously up tilt the hell out of dark samus then go after ridley and hope he dosent stall in the background so much.

Thanks, I'll try these tips after I get back home. Hopefully I'll be able to knock it out.

There's another Event I'm having a ton of trouble getting the reward in, but I can't remember the specifics of it. It's on Bridge of Eldin, and I think you're playing as Zelda + Sheik against Samus + Zero Suit Samus... or the other way around. Ether way, you have to beat it on Hard in like 45 seconds or something to get the reward, and I'm like WHAT HOW.

Exactly the same as when the game wasn't, to be honest

I personally think that Chorus Men isn't happening, but I still have my hopes up for Dixie!

My heart.

The Chorus Kids not being in and the lack of any real Rhythm Heaven content in the game stand as my biggest disappointments in Smash Wii U (and there are very, very few things I'm disappointed about).

 

[Trey]

Just fought a pretty cool Pac Man. I got bodied for free in the first game because I had no clue how to fight him. Learned on the fly. It was fun.

 

[Kane1345]

Heh, well it's worth just getting to grips with moving and attacking first, which the single player will help with, though the AI won't help much with strategy unless you're setting the AI to specific behaviours to work on certain situations :3
I made much the same mistake with Palutena by jumping online with her before i'd really got to grips with her and lost a lot of matches initially. The temptation to jump back on my vet (Zelda) and show people I knew what i was doing was always at the back of my mind, but for the most part I toughed it out and got the hang of her
Some people do better jumping in the deep end though ;D

The key things are:
a) You're noticing new tricks or identifying problems and working to find solutions for them
b) You gotta have fun :3
As long as both those are true, do whatever you must

Even though I was getting mostly destroyed I did learn a lot. It was fun learning not only how people play online but also how to adapt to it and how to use my character more economically. I was smashing P) the pad like crazy in the first match because it was just so hectic and I wasn't ready for it but once I got used to the craziness things started to actually make a bit more sense and my actions became more deliberate. Like all fighting games I guess it's just practice practice practice hehe. I'll do some single today and then jump online again at some point. Hope to play with some of you guys soon as well!

 

[Vermillion]

Yes, "mechanically" moving pieces on a board is simple, but " Chess" is far more in practice than just moving pieces around a board. That's why we call it " Chess" instead of the striped down barebones concept "moving pieces around a board"...

Otherwse, we might as well say no game is "complex" since your really just pressing buttons and moving sticks at certain times and in certain directions. : The realization of concept vs. instances.

Just like a "forest" doesn't exist, it's just a lot of trees and foliage in a large area clumped together... The "forest is a concept" we use to describe a lot of trees in a area.

Lest we not forget the definition of "complexity" - Do we consider what takes place in a Chess match or even Dark Souls, Super Meat Boy, Smash4 "intricate" by design?

He's clearly defining complexity as extra input/more rules.

 

[ArynCrinn]

Something tells me ArynCrinn isn't the life of the party.

Oh, we throw ho-downs every night! Lots of laughs, beer/liquor, cigarettes, prescription meds, illegal substances and good old fashioned American fucking my wife. Nothing fancy, we're simple folk.

Come on by!!! Family is all here so 2x the intoxicated fun.

He's clearly defining complexity as extra input/more rules.

Momma always had a way of explaining things so I could understand them.

 

[Vena]

Yes, "mechanically" moving pieces on a board is simple, but " Chess" is far more in practice than just moving pieces around a board. That's why we call it " Chess" instead of the striped down barebones concept "moving pieces around a board"...

Talk about literally missing the forest for the trees. That's the whole point, we're talking about mechanics of a game, its complexity in execution. Depth and complexity, the discussion of game design, is based on the principle of how many rules/actions do you create for your game (the complexity) vs. how much depth can you get out of it.

Go is the ur-example of a game with very little complexity: two rules, move some black and white pieces on a board. That's it. The game has a monstrous amount of depth to it though. You're confusing the whole picture for the physical mechanics.

 

[nintendork666]

Just fought a pretty cool Pac Man. I got bodied for free in the first game because I had no clue how to fight him. Learned on the fly. It was fun.

Could've been me.

 

[Gibbo]

Anyone bought the Prima games strategy guide? Worth buying?

 

[Korezo]

Im having problems, 90% of the times I press a direction and the A button it registers as the smash moves. Is there a option that can fix that? Makes hitting defense players online impossible for me.

 

[vazel]

Anyone bought the Prima games strategy guide? Worth buying?

NO. Very little effort was put into the guide. Use ssbwiki.com and smashboards.com to learn this game.

 

[vanty]

Im having problems, 90% of the times I press a direction and the A button it registers as the smash moves. Is there a option that can fix that? Makes hitting defense players online impossible for me.

You set the right stick to attack moves instead of smashes I'm pretty sure.

 

[Onikaan]

So uh, what are the chances of me getting the pack with the GC controller adaptor with no pre-order?

 

[ArynCrinn]

Talk about literally missing the forest for the trees. That's the whole point, we're talking about mechanics of a game, its complexity in execution. Depth and complexity, the discussion of game design, is based on the principle of how many rules/actions do you create for your game (the complexity) vs. how much depth can you get out of it.

Go is the ur-example of a game with very little complexity: two rules, move some black and white pieces on a board. That's it. The game has a monstrous amount of depth to it though. You're confusing the whole picture for the physical mechanics.

Yes, but you aren't grasping the point, what am I not seeing?

Again, nobody has answered this question, verbatim - For the sake of argument, would you consider Super Meat Boy and Dark Souls more "complex" or more "depth"?

I'd like to see how you answer that.

I'll make it easier for you - Super Hexagon and One Finger Death Punch...more "complex" or more "depth".

Based on these examples, if you already can't see my point based on these 4 games, than there's a cognitive disconnect or just plain ole stubbornness.

 

[moolamb]

My ignore list grows....

GREETINGS AU AND NZ! Are we ready to join the party?

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Too many tears about chess so early in the morning.

Who is everyone maining? I want to get good with ness but Im just cack

 

[Trey]

Could've been me.

did you play a peach? I'm trey in game, as well.

 

[DoubleYou]

In about an hour I'm ready to smash! It's been a long journey but the wait is finally over.

 

[Jackano]

I would try again tomorrow on the actual release, and if it still doesn't work contact nintendo.

That's what I was thinking and it didn't worked until now. I sent an email this morning...

So anyway, surveys and claim for the music CD are up and running.

 

[Geminosity]

Yes, but you aren't grasping the point, what am I not seeing?

Again, nobody has answered this question, verbatim - For the sake of argument, would you consider Super Meat Boy and Dark Souls more "complex" or more "depth"?

I'd like to see how you answer that.

I'll make it easier for you - Super Hexagon and One Finger Death Punch...more "complex" or more "depth".

Based on these examples, if you already can't see my point based on these 4 games, than there's a cognitive disconnect or just plain ole stubbornness.

If you really wanted to make it 'easy' you'd stick to multiplayer games because single player is a completely different kettle of fish, unless you feel like telling us yourself where the depth vs complexity balance of solitaire, Dance Dance Revolution or Sudoku lies

edit: just in case you're missing why they're different: you play multiplayer with the opponent as your challenge. you play singleplayer for the game itself to be the challenge. Due to the different desired outcomes, the methodology between these two types are very different. This is why some combat systems that work great in single player are terrible in multiplayer games or vice versa

 

[3bdelilah]

OH SWEET LORD HAVE MERCY, THE TIME HAS COME

 

[HawthorneKitty]

There's another Event I'm having a ton of trouble getting the reward in, but I can't remember the specifics of it. It's on Bridge of Eldin, and I think you're playing as Zelda + Sheik against Samus + Zero Suit Samus... or the other way around. Ether way, you have to beat it on Hard in like 45 seconds or something to get the reward, and I'm like WHAT HOW.

Events with walkoffs are sometimes very simple to beat; head to the edge, back-throw. If they survive, hit them.

 

[ArynCrinn]

If you really wanted to make it 'easy' you'd stick to multiplayer games because single player is a completely different kettle of fish, unless you feel like telling us yourself where the depth vs complexity balance of solitaire, Dance Dance Revolution or Sudoku lies

Ummmm, huh?

SMB, Hexagon, OFDP and Dark Souls ALL have a form of multiplayer. Whether it's passive (leaderboards) or active (PvP). This point still stands, and still a refusal to give me a straight answer.

And when did this conversation suddenly ONLY apply to MP games?

And...haven't played Solitaire in forever, never played either of the others, so I don't have a valid opinion there.

 

[Clefargle]

I am not splitting them unintentionally, I've read this argument before that problem is that there is a difference between complexity married to depth, and complexity for the sake of complexity. PM is the more the latter. Complexity is fine if comes with any actual depth to its existence as in when they compliment each other and there exist situations in which the use of a complex skill is not the best option, but complexity that is always superior to not is not what I consider a good design choice. In fact I consider that a design choice that misses the forest for the trees and just chases the goose of "technical skill".

Complexity in a fighter game where you have to use certain, elaborate combinations to use very complicated but timely skills is good complexity that comes with a depth of knowing how, when, and where to use it. Complexity where you simply have an easy out for any and every move, ie. l-canceling and a lot of PM's cancels, are bad complexity as its just another action that does nothing but separate the informed (of its existence) from the not.

This is why I said that P:M has its fair share of arguably bad design choices.

Agreed, when nintendo adds more pokemon to the newest version it doesn't necessarily make the metagame deeper, just more diverse/complex. But when they add Mega evos, new status effects, or new typing it adds some depth.

Yes, I understand. But you realize at once that no great game can have any meaningful "depth" without complexity of some sort. And no great game can have "complexity" without depth of some sort. They are interconnected. As you said too much of anything is not good, but I err on the side of complexity in terms of what you can do as a player with Smash's gameplay and movement freedom on top of a already jampacked game with tons of depth vs. the simpler approach Brawl and Smash4 went.

What is simpler about having 8 player smash? I'd say that is more complex than 4. Needless complexity for its own sake only obfuscates the mechanics in the game. The hallmark of good design isn't complexity, it's simplicity. Movement options don't automatically imply depth either, if you have too many movement options, you have shitty fighting game. A game like MGS or Assassins Creed has more movement options than PM, does that make it a better fighting game?
Complexity is fine, but not without reflexive depth and balance. Sm4sh has that in spades. Even you mentioned in the first post I responded to that Sm4sh is more balanced than PM upon release. A game with complexity in the form of customs, new chars, and equip, which is also more balanced than PM, is a better game in my opinion.

I'm a stalwart advocate of player agency, and in the context of fighters the amount of tight control feedback, technical advanced options and overall "feel" of the char/s is paramount. For me PM nails that more than any Smash ever made.

Ok, what does "tight control feedback" mean? Does it mean the input lag? Rumble? Framerate? I don't see how PM tops Sm4sh in any of those categories. For you it comes down to the "feel" of it, which is an arbitrary value corresponding to the changes the PM team made to the physics of brawl. It's fine to hold this opinion , but it is subjective. Just say so and I'll accept it.

I'm not sure they do. The thing you linked to gives many examples of situations where complexity doesn't lead to depth :3

I think when designing a game you ideally want a few intuitive ways of interfacing with the game (simple) but that can be mixed or used in multiple ways inside of the game without additional inputs to create true depth. A good example would be portal: the interface is simple in that you basically just shoot 2 different types of portal, but how the physics and environment can be manipulated or how they interact with these portals creates a surprising amount of depth in form of possibilities and all without any additional input from the player
This is especially true if you're trying to make a prototype boardgame, which will outright require the players to handle a lot of the mechanics themselves so if you complicate them it not only makes the game feel daunting but also slows the whole thing down to a crawl

Don't get me wrong though, there is an audience for... well... digital agility. Finger atheletes if you will. I'm not one of them but I know a few and they enjoy challenging execution from time to time where I find it unnecessary and an obstacle between me and the 'real' game. In many ways that's perhaps why it's good that we have both PM and Smash 4 as each caters to the different halves of this debate in their own way :3

Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[Geminosity]

Ummmm, huh?

SMB, Hexagon, OFDP and Dark Souls ALL have a form of multiplayer. Whether it's passive (leaderboards) or active (PvP). This point still stands, and still a refusal to give me a straight answer.

And when did this conversation suddenly ONLY apply to MP games?

And...haven't played Solitaire in forever, never played either of the others, so I don't have a valid opinion there.

I added an edit before I saw this so I'll repeat it here: if you're missing why they're different: you play multiplayer with the opponent as your challenge. you play singleplayer for the game itself to be the challenge. Due to the different desired outcomes, the methodology between these two types are very different. This is why some combat systems that work great in single player are terrible in multiplayer games or vice versa Scores are just about setting a bar for single player rather than being any true form of multiplayer as far as I'm concerned. I can't comment on dark souls because I've not played it in forever (well, techinically I've never played dark souls: I played Demons' souls XD )

 

[Kouriozan]

Finally could register the club Nintendo code and claimed Mewtwo + the double CD.
It was invalid before today.

 

[ArynCrinn]

I added an edit before I saw this so I'll repeat it here: if you're missing why they're different: you play multiplayer with the opponent as your challenge. you play singleplayer for the game itself to be the challenge. Due to the different desired outcomes, the methodology between these two types are very different. This is why some combat systems that work great in single player are terrible in multiplayer games or vice versa Scores are just about setting a bar for single player rather than being any true form of multiplayer as far as I'm concerned. I can't comment on dark souls because I've not played it in forever (well, techinically I've never played dark souls: I played Demons' souls XD )

Okay, so you played Demon's, would you say it's within reason, equal parts depth and complexity to some extent?

But anyway, that was my point. Because those 4 games shatter the notion that a games' "complexity" can somehow undermine it's "depth" if masterfully produced. And as you can see, nobody as of yet has posted any rebuttal to that.

So to say that games like Ikaruga or Pac-Man CE DX (also MP enabled, extremely competitive) don't have equal parts depth and complexity is totally absurd.

Want a MP-only game which has this quality too? How about Halo 3, Quake Live, Quake 3, Unreal Tourney. Tons of depth AND complexity in all of them. So in closing, saying that PM's "complex gameplay" somehow erodes or would the "depth" of Smash4 to me sounds like a total defense force reply without any real thought behind it.

So anyway, done with that train of thought, how about that Duck Hunt @ lvl9 CPU! Fun fights.

 

[Durden77]

Does anyone wanna face a pretty drunk Captain Falcon? NID humblemumble77

 

[Neiteio]

Four of my amiibo, asleep on the job: Stairfax (Fox), Boosta (DK), Ditzy (Peach), and The Fonz (Mario). Not pictured: Marshie (Kirby) and Ja Rule (Yoshi).

Also, some ZSS:

 

[nintendork666]

did you play a peach? I'm trey in game, as well.

Maybe? There was a Peach and Zelda both green dress. We played a few matches, I think I caught everyone off guard for while. Wasn't playing 1 on 1 or anything though.

 

[Geminosity]

Okay, so you played Demon's, would you say it's within reason, equal parts depth and complexity to some extent?

But anyway, that was my point. Because those 4 games shatter the notion that a games' "complexity" can somehow undermine it's "depth" if masterfully produced. And as you can see, nobody as of yet has posted any rebuttal to that.

So to say that games like Ikaruga or Pac-Man CE DX (also MP enabled, extremely competitive) don't have equal parts depth and complexity is totally absurd.

Want a MP-only game which has this quality too? How about Halo 3, Quake Live, Quake 3, Unreal Tourney. Tons of depth AND complexity in all of them. So in closing, saying that PM's "complex gameplay" somehow erodes or would the "depth" of Smash4 to me sounds like a total defense force reply without any real thought behind it.

I dunno, as far as I can see from the general patterns of the internet I'd agree that this 'debate' has basically lost any potential for actual resolution as neither party seems willing to budge.

To you, it appears people of the opposing side are being stubborn or willfully ignoring your point, while on this side of the fence it looks like you weren't able to defend your original point so you've kept changing what the argument is about until it's become so nebulous what you're arguing we can't even understand what we're supposed to even be refuting anymore, therefore making you impossible to pin down.

I agree, a different topic would be nice. Let's talk about smash instead

 

[Hagi]

So uh, what are the chances of me getting the pack with the GC controller adaptor with no pre-order?

Pretty high depending where you are I just walked into my local game centre and picked it up earlier. Now all I need to do is find my Cube controller.

 

[Geminosity]

OH SWEET LORD HAVE MERCY, THE TIME HAS COME

Congrats! Enjoy your newfound smashing times!
~goes back to staring at the letterbox until the mail arrives~

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

Events with walkoffs are sometimes very simple to beat; head to the edge, back-throw. If they survive, hit them.

Yeah, I tried that but didn't have any luck doing that. I'll just have to keep at it...

 

[dock]

I hate that I want to buy Smash Bros, because I suspect I'll have a bad time with it.
I might see if I can play it with a friend for an evening and see how I get along with it.

The only people that are into it are my coworkers, and I don't hang out with those guys outside of work.

 

[ArynCrinn]

I dunno, as far as I can see from the general patterns of the internet I'd agree that this 'debate' has basically lost any potential for actual resolution as neither party seems willing to budge.

To you, it appears people of the opposing side are being stubborn or willfully ignoring your point, while on this side of the fence it looks like you weren't able to defend your original point so you've tried to keep changing what the argument is even about until it's reached the point where it's so nebulous what you're even arguing we can't even understand the point we're supposedly trying to refute anymore, therefore making you impossible to pin down.

I agree, a different topic would be nice. Let's talk about smash instead

Well, I just posted the point I've been making all along as nobody could get it when it was perfectly obvious, when somebody first rebutted my PM preference, then it turned into some ridiculous "complexity vs depth" argument. You CANNOT make blanket statements like that when other examples can be shown that totally destroy your argument. The PM thing I already admitted was a preference of mine. I have no idea why somebody decided to weigh in with a ridiculous and pretty off topic non-issue.

But yeah, I agree let's talk Smash.

 

[Durden77]

Let's change that to drunk and possibly laggy. I just moved and I swear every random fight has been laggy, but every friend fight has been fine.

Anyway humblemumble77

 

[julesodies]

I'm getting totally massacred online haha. How do you defend against grabs and how usefull is the roll?

 

[Clefargle]

Just like a "forest" doesn't exist, it's just a lot of trees and foliage in a large area clumped together... The "forest is a concept" we use to describe a lot of trees in a area.

A forest is a well defined term. It is an ecosystem full of many forms of life that are all interdependent. A forest is not just trees, it is the collective of all the trees, animals, bacteria, fungi, altitude, topography, and climate of the area. A forest exists as long as the ecosystem can support itself.

Lest we not forget the definition of "complexity" - Do we consider what takes place in a Chess match or even Dark Souls, Super Meat Boy, Smash4 "intricate" by design?

I don't know what intricate means in this context, more detail?

He's clearly defining complexity as extra input/more rules.

If you mean ArynCrinn then yeah. Arbitrary complexity is no better than arbitrary difficulty in a game. I don't like to fight AI that is hard to battle if they are only good at dodging at the last second, I like to fight AI that is "smart" or "unintuitive".

Yes, but you aren't grasping the point, what am I not seeing?

Again, nobody has answered this question, verbatim - For the sake of argument, would you consider Super Meat Boy and Dark Souls more "complex" or more "depth"?

I'd like to see how you answer that.

I'll make it easier for you - Super Hexagon and One Finger Death Punch...more "complex" or more "depth".

Based on these examples, if you already can't see my point based on these 4 games, than there's a cognitive disconnect or just plain ole stubbornness.

I haven't played any of those besides Super meat boy so I can't really answer that... Go any other examples?

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

Just placed my wave 2 and 3 amiibo pre-orders on Amazon!

Sadly, Zelda is the only wave 2 amiibo I want that can actually be ordered there right now... for some reason, Pit and Captain Falcon are showing up as unavailable. Guess I might have to hunt those down in person if they don't become available for pre-order rather soon.

Ordered Mega Man, Toon Link, and Sonic without incident though! Only other one I want out of wave 3 is Rosalina, but I'll have to get that one at Target.

 

[3bdelilah]

Congrats! Enjoy your newfound smashing times!
~goes back to staring at the letterbox until the mail arrives~

Haha, thanks. Hope you get yours soon too!

 

[Neiteio]

Just placed my wave 2 and 3 amiibo pre-orders on Amazon!

Sadly, Zelda is the only wave 2 amiibo I want that can actually be ordered there right now... for some reason, Pit and Captain Falcon are showing up as unavailable. Guess I might have to hunt those down in person if they don't become available for pre-order rather soon.

Ordered Mega Man, Toon Link, and Sonic without incident though! Only other one I want out of wave 3 is Rosalina, but I'll have to get that one at Target.

You're a brave man buying these things over the Internet. I wouldn't buy unless I saw it in person first. Too much variation from one specimen to the next.

I have what I want from Wave 1: Yoshi, Kirby, Mario, DK, Peach and Fox.

For Wave 2, I want Diddy, Pit and Captain Falcon.

And for Wave 3, I want Dedede, Toon Link and Bowser.

I'm also interested in Shulk and Mega Man.

SO MANY AMIIBO!

 

[ArynCrinn]

A forest is a well defined term. It is an ecosystem full of many forms of life that are all interdependent. A forest is not just trees, it is the collective of all the trees, animals, bacteria, fungi, altitude, topography, and climate of the area. A forest exists as long as the ecosystem can support itself.




I don't know what intricate means in this context, more detail?



If you mean ArynCrinn then yeah. Arbitrary complexity is no better than arbitrary difficulty in a game. I don't like to fight AI that is hard to battle if they are only good at dodging at the last second, I like to fight AI that is "smart" or "unintuitive".



I haven't played any of those besides Super meat boy so I can't really answer that... Go any other examples?

Check your PM box, it's Smash talk from here on.

 

[Geminosity]

I'm getting totally massacred online haha. How do you defend against grabs and how usefull is the roll?

Main defences against grabbing are:
a) jumping
b) spot-dodging
c) rolling
d) hitting them before they grab you
As you've no doubt found out, shielding doesn't help against grabs :3
When you are grabbed, if they don't throw you immediately you can shake out of it earlier depending on your damage % and how much you wiggle the stick :3

the roll is fairly useful if used sparingly and never for approaching. If you use it too often against an experienced player there's a good chance they'll read your rolling mannerisms and punish the heck out of you

Haha, thanks. Hope you get yours soon too!

lol, just as I hit 'reply' to this the doorbell rang and the prodigal box appeared in my silly little hands