Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I grew up contra, rushn' attack, super smash tv, and Shinobi...Drake has nice nothing on those murdering badasses.
Neil Druckmann talks about Nathan Drake mass murderer discussion, calls out NeoGAF
- Thread starter Dawg
- Start date
Its getting really hard to separate joke posts from real ones in some threads today.
Did gaf forget that Drake is first and foremost a thief,he would inevitably get dragged into mercenaries/other thieves/gang conflict due to his nature of work which killing is needed if you want to be protected against them?Kill or be killed. I bet Sully and Chloe casually mass murder while cracking jokes too.
inpHilltr8r
Member
This strikes an uncomfortable chord.
snoopeasystreet
Member
Indie/adventure games often don't focus on killing and sell quite well. Although, yeah, I don't think you could persuade a publisher to give you the budget of Uncharted to make something more subdued in content. Portal & Portal 2 are the only narrative focused non-combat games that I can think of that compares, and that's mostly because Valve aren't beholden to publishers in the way that other developers are.
I do believe that developers should spend a time thinking about how the player's actions throughout the game impacts the story and if they come to the conclusion that it's consequential, that's perfectly fine. It's their game. I don't that conclusion precludes them from criticism though, just like I don't think being critical of game precludes people from having fun with it. I enjoy the Uncharted games and a tonne of other shooters, that doesn't mean I don't think there's an underlying problem with the medium.
RustyNails
Member
I think Duckman's got a point. At the end of the day, no matter how realistic the story and relationships get, it is still a video game. Just because the graphics have gotten realistic means that the core gaming should be curbed? How many nazis has BJ killed in Wolfenstein 3D? How many bad dudes the Contra bros killed in that jungle?
Drake kills more people in a single encounter than Indy does in the entirety of Raiders of the Lost Ark. Your argument is invalid.
Japanmanx3
Member
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Drake killing enemies has never bothered me in the previous game. I've never understood why it bugs people so much. It's a game. Shooting is the primary mechanic. The people you're killing are douchebags that are either pirates, work for a genocidal loon, or work for a murderous secret cult. Who cares, enjoy the story.
What kind of game do you want?
Thats a bit like saying that drama's dont get the budget of Marvel movies.
People buy shooters, and companies invest in them more. As simple as that.
But that does not mean that there arent plenty of other games that dont feature you shooting million people. I like racing games, I like sports games, I like strategies.
But that does not mean that I think they should stop doing shooters because I want more sports games. It does not work that way.
But again, it feels wrong to single out Uncharted because the game itself is pretty light and it does not feel bad at all. It is very similar to Indy movies where they kill many enemies in light hearted way so you dont really feel it. So you could have a game where you kill single person and that might leave a lot worse impression on you than Uncharted ever will.
So that makes it somehow worse??
The addition of "in cold blood" is some Fox News level cheap manipulation, kudos.
That said, it's a third person shooter with enemies having classes like "brutes".
Did you need all that data to notice that the main activity in the game is shooting things? I seriously fail to see how it is embarrassing, it's not like the game is even trying to hide it, either.
By your definition then, Raiders of the Lost Ark is very violent movie because they killed 63 people, which is more than 99% of action movies, right?
Or is it?
Numbers dont matter at all... put Indy in the game medium, they are incredibly similar experiences.
Something like TloU is much more serious with its kills, so there may be less of them but in the end, it affects you much more. It feels a lot more personal.
He is spot on. Hopefully crystal dynamics will do the same thing with RoTTR.
The act of killing followed by a quip is what is the problem right? How does it matter if its 45 or 455 in terms of how you feel.
RustyNails
Member
This is 100% true. Neogaf gamers are like Prince's mother.
I've been critical of Nathan's homicidal tendencies since Uncharted 2. I've also been critical of the latest demo for still being a bit too shooterish. While I'm still critical, it's a huge improvement in both game play and the cognitive dissonance that comes from murdering hundreds of random dudes. The waves of enemies are now gone, the new game is clearly going to have a vastly reduced kill count. Neil's getting up tight about the criticism, whilst markedly improving on the whole mass killing side.
It reminds of the Nepalese village in 2. One of the most memorable moments and no one gets shot. 3 has similar moments and 4 will obviously expand on it.
With each leap forward in design and graphical power we're seeing the violence intensify. We can see more clearly and the characters feel more believable. Dumb grunts aren't quite as disposable, so the number of kills has dropped.
On one hand Neil is saying I don't care. While on the other he and the team are clearly improving on these very criticisms.
To be fair the reason they are receiving these criticisms ahead of everyone else, is because they are ahead of everyone else.
It reminds of the Nepalese village in 2. One of the most memorable moments and no one gets shot. 3 has similar moments and 4 will obviously expand on it.
With each leap forward in design and graphical power we're seeing the violence intensify. We can see more clearly and the characters feel more believable. Dumb grunts aren't quite as disposable, so the number of kills has dropped.
On one hand Neil is saying I don't care. While on the other he and the team are clearly improving on these very criticisms.
To be fair the reason they are receiving these criticisms ahead of everyone else, is because they are ahead of everyone else.
So how many kills are acceptable for an "everyman"? After how many kills does he become a mass murderer?
If Drake didn't kill as many people as he does, the games would be both sparse and boring. How much puzzle/platforming do we want in our action games? There are many puzzle platformers that address that style of play better, but sell far less. Fact is, people like to shoot and hit things in games. That's just the trend our gaming dollars have nurtured. I'll never feel guilty for my entertainment preferences. PEACE.
sooogood.gif
You are oversimplifying the criticism. I don't care that you kill a lot of people in a shooting game. I play shooting games where I kill a lot of people all the time.
The issue is when the person doing the killing is Joe Everyman who wears a half-tucked t-shirt. The game doesn't establish a cohesive tone. The game attempts to ground itself in reality through the way it creates the story and its characters, but then breaks all of that through the gameplay.
There was a particular moment in Uncharted 2 that stood out to me. I think it was on the famous train sequence? A helicopter pops in and Drake says something to the effect of "A helicopter? How the hell am I suppose to take out a helicopter?" The game is trying to sell you on the idea that Drake is a vunerable character who's way in over his head. But then he just blows up the helicopter anyway. He just fucking blows up a helicopter by shooting at it from a moving train. This guy is some kind of crazy superhero badass, maybe he should act like it?
Not that this is even the worst problem with the Uncharted games. It's a knock against the game, but I don't think that this issue alone is enough to tank it.
I don't get why people complain about it. I would understand if the game was more like TLOU where it is more gritty, violent, and tells a darker story, but it isn't. Uncharted is a fun TPS where you kill waves of bad guys to get treasure, along the way are some puzzles and platforming to make it harder and more interesting but this is primarily a shooting game with a fun campaign.
The Omega Man
Member
Druckmann don't ignore me!!!!!!!!! I have these amazing ideas that will improve 100% the game and make it the absolute NeoGAF's videogame of the forever like adding anime girls with skimpy outfits and some ponies flying around etc.
It is not even an excuse. It is intelectual nothingness. Might as well say the sky is blue.
There's no story ambition or character development in those games. In fact I couldn't even tell you the names of the playable characters. If you want to dismiss the criticisms of Drake being a mass murderer that's fine, but in the same breath you can't then go on to claim that Uncharted has a worthwhile story.
SeventhSon
Member
I think this is a fair point, we notice the "excessive killing" because of the "cinematic" presentation of the matter.
It doesn't bother me personally, but I do notice the huge shift in "tone" between the cutscene/scripted set piece parts and the normal "wave based" mow down enemy goon parts.
DangerMouse
Member
Another great post.
Yup. And Uncharted goes all-in and nails that Indy tone perfectly.
You mean the part where you walk around and pet the cows? That moment is only memorable *because* it's a change of pace, and a moment of rest between action parts of shooting enemies, it's only worthwhile in context.. and that context is shooting a whole lot of people.
The best part of the game, right after that, is when the village is under attack and you have to shoot a lot of folks, because it's where the game mechanics shine.
That wasn't a set piece though. You can't be sure the waves of enemies are gone, and there's really no reason to think they will. There's only so many enemies that can fit on screen or in an area at once. If there are automatic or heavy weapons in the game, there are almost certainly set pieces with waves of enemies. I can't think of many shooting games that don't have them. It's a staple of the genre. PEACE.
snoopeasystreet
Member
I responded to someone else a few posts above, so I hopefully that'll help you understand where I'm coming from. My core argument is a lot of shooters are often highly regarded for their narrative while having (what I consider) glaring dissonance between the story and gameplay. My issue isn't with Uncharted (although I do think it's an offender in some instances), it's with Druckmann's statement that it killing is basically a trope in games. I don't want to be too dismissive of the guy based on one sentence because he clearly know's how to make a game that resonates with people. I'd just like there to be more thought behind how your narrative and gameplay tie together.
is the Uncharted only shooter you ever played?
Hows that worse than anything you do in GTA for instance? Or how do you justify shooting in COD and Battlefield - people have names on top of their heads, and you are shooting at them!
It makes little sense that Uncharted is put into this bubble and reviewed on its own, and not as a part of entire medium where it is actually one of the less violent games IMHO.
RustyNails
Member
So if Contra dudebros had characterization, you would level the same criticism at them?
It's not invalid because one is a kill count to fill a film, and the other is a kill count to fill a video game. They both require the need for the protagonist to kill various nondescript henchmen. Full length video games will almost always need to be more exaggerated than a film, even if the subject matter and tone is similar.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
In a nutshell:
"They're videogames. You're going to kill a lot of poeple in an action videogame. Sometimes you have to stick to your guns on your vision and ignore NeoGAF".
I thought it was pretty funny. I agree with him.
"They're videogames. You're going to kill a lot of poeple in an action videogame. Sometimes you have to stick to your guns on your vision and ignore NeoGAF".
I thought it was pretty funny. I agree with him.
To anybody who thinks I think Uncharted needs to be "less shooty" is thinking in the completely opposite direction. The answer isn't to make the game less violent. The answer is to make Nathan Drake more of a badass.
If Drake walked and talked more like a badass? I wouldn't care at all about how many dudes he kills. GTA is a satire absolutely not meant to be taken seriously. COD and Battlefield are about military engagements with trained soldiers in armor. Uncharted is about some regular dude who can't tuck his shirt in the right way.
And?
I think i must be getting old or i'm not a very nice person or something but i don't see what the problem is.
endlessflood
Member
Clearly he's right. GAF might be very good with Photoshop and GIFs, and there's some really good discussion here, but when it comes to making games maybe the guys at Naughty Dog are better at it than random posters on GAF.
I still think the Lazarevic boss fight in UC2 was only put in in response to criticism of the UC1 boss fight. It was a mistake. People never seem to understand that the UC1 boss fight was a brutal combo with a cinematic camera, not a random QTE sequence. I really liked that as a finish. In contrast the Lazarevic boss fight was the worst thing about UC2 (and probably one of the only things I didn't like about the game).
I always think of the FC2 checkpoint criticism as well. It never bothered me but clearly it bothered a lot of people who bitched about them respawning, so they stopped them respawn in FC3. Then they had to patch one back in after people bitched about the fact that the FC3 checkpoints didn't respawn and it made the game boring (especially towards the end).
People might be very good at determining whether they like something, but they're usually pretty bad at actually figuring out the real reason why. That's why game design should be left to game designers rather than GAF. They might not always get it right but on average they'll be an order of magnitude better
In Die Hard, John McLain ziplined off a bridge onto a tanker with handyman Jules. He also took out s helicopter with a squad car and ghost rode a F-22. I forget the crazy stuff he did in the last, terrible movie. And that character is a Joe Everyman character. There are many other examples in movies alone. Drake isn't much different. PEACE.
but it is kind of trope in shooter games, just like it is in Indy or Die Hard, right? It does not make you think that Indiana is violent mass murderer, does it?
Shooter where you kill 2 people is not a shooter, and not only that it does not mean that it will be less violent. They way the story plays out is very important.
You overuse that word. And well, Die Hard, Bond etc all have been critized for that, so I don't really know why you guys bring that up.
Yeah DMann, keep on making mindless shooty for laughs. That's totally FINE! Everyone loves that! But drop the pretention of offering teh emotions and characters and all so mature dreadful themes where people might actaully die! (Is Nathan gonna die?? The reveal trailer sure made it sound like he's gonna die!) Because that's pretentious and nobody gives a shit about that, especially your fans, becuase you're just making a videogame for the laughs!