Run guys!! It's the expectation police!
No Man's Sky and why the Minecraft generation will reject Call of Duty
- Thread starter Icyflamez96
- Start date
Run guys!! It's the expectation police!
PerezDeCorcho
Member
The post-Call of Duty Ghosts world.
Triggerhappytel
Member
Sean Murray said:
Can we please have this branded into the top of the forum (maybe beside the Neogaf logo?) until after No Man's Sky has released?
ReplacementPelican
Member
It's really because games do not just target one demographic, some people play games because it's like a competition, some even call it a sport. Others play it for a challenge, some want a good, engaging story and wont play games on more than 'normal', some people want exploration, some people want creation. It targets so many people that I do feel like articles like this try to guess at too much.
I grew up playing Spyro and Dragon Ball Z games and I still play both (Spyro on my Vita and will be grabbing Xenoverse on PS4) but I have a lot more fun playing the same games as everyone else. I do think that Indie games like Minecraft and No Man's Sky will only get more popular though.
Messofanego
Banned
dancegrenade
Member
Wish more people could just say this instead of trying to make every game cater to their specific wants and needs, while being a fucking idiot in the process.
freakzilla149
Banned
Yes, it absolutely does. That meaning of course doesn't have to be Mincraft-like crafting or an end goal of some kind, but there does need to some sort of motivator.
You can't just plop us in the middle of some virtual universe by ourselves and say have fun. There's got to be a motivation to explore - again I'm not saying it should be something like loot - but the game has to foster curiosity at least a little bit.Tempt us with the possibility of something amazing, the same way a good horror game often makes us scared with the anticipation of the next attack more than the attack itself.
As it is at the moment the world of NMS is just a beautiful load of nothing to me, it isn't tangible like the real world, it doesn't offer glory and it doesn't have inspiring history like the moon landings to build that desire in us. Even when we're just talking about pure exploration for the sake of it, it's a lot harder to give a shit about a virtual world vs the real one.
I do accept where Sean Murray is coming from though, I don't think the secretiveness is coming from insecurity, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.
I'm glad to hear someone actually come out and say this, as opposed to just bashing the effing shit out something that isn't for them.
Games are made with certain gamers in mind. No one is forcing people to jump on a bandwagon. If you think you'll like the game, you grab it. If not, you grab something else - we're ALLLL!! the same in that regard.
ON A SIDE NOTE:
Maybe it's the size of stage NMS is on - that huge 'AAA' stage that's getting everyone riled up. I mean - naturally who wouldn't be with such an ambitious undertaking for a morsel of a team.
Frankly all that matters:
- The people this game was made for - are there enough of them buying it (aka) are Sony and friends going to make a profit?
- (assuming NMS is success to biblical proportions) Will skeptics be swayed to play it based on review/word-of-mouth - thus - see number 1.
The fundamental question I think Murray is raising is 'what *is* gameplay?'
Minecraft has plenty of gameplay, but it isn't necessarily fed to you as a series of check box things to do (there are some elements like that, but that isn't what keeps people playing for so long)
Why does the reward have to be some predetermined thing the developer has defined? Why can't the reward be - at least in part - simply exploring and finding something new, or building something nobody else ever has? Look at recent photo threads for games. Even in 'traditional' games, people are enjoying the universes created and taking photos which is entirely secondary to the main game, yet also very satisfying.
I like that they've taken inspiration from the San Andreas rumours as that sort of mythology around games appeals to me, something you could have played for hours but still holds the vague hope that you may find something new.
It'll be tough to pull off in this era though, I'm sure there was a thread recently about a dev being annoyed that their game was cracked open to find a deeply hidden secret, I hope NMS can succeed.
It'll be tough to pull off in this era though, I'm sure there was a thread recently about a dev being annoyed that their game was cracked open to find a deeply hidden secret, I hope NMS can succeed.
I am prepared to accept I am relatively clueless about Minecraft - but everything I've seen of people playing it to date(including what I little I played myself) was completely removed from "crafting" being a motivator to play.freakzilla149 said:
I do think NMS has a lot to prove - but I'm skeptical for different reasons than most. I don't really buy their PR pitch on tech - which doesn't mean it won't deliver as a game - but I've already seen signs of it being advertised as something it's not.
AdventureRacing
Member
They have already shown that there will be stuff to tempt us to explore but i don't see why that's necessary (loot, minerals, trading). The incentive to explore for me is that i've just been dropped into an entire galaxy which has never been explored. I may find an alien civilization, dinosaurs, sand worms, a cave painting, unusual landscapes or some other crazy thing i'm not expecting. Who knows maybe at some point i might even run into another person exploring the galaxy (maybe this isn't possible but that's ok). Sure the planets will have loot or minerals or whatever but that's not what really makes me want to explore.
When i play a game like OOT i go searching every nook and cranny of the map. I'm not searching for a gold coin necessarily i just want to see what's there. In WoW i've explored every inch of those HUGE zones just for interests sake, to see what's there and what views i can find. Occasionally i've found a nice sunset or some interesting landscape. On the rare occasion i've even ran into another player just silently sitting there in this random spot that i happened to be exploring and we shared a silent moment together. No tangible reward was there to be found and yet i loved doing it all the same.
I don't see why they would show footage of the moon landing. In the trailers i've seen the player is shown traveling from one planet to another in a massive unexplored galaxy. That has me very excited to go exploring. You say they need to tempt us with something great but they already have. Look at some of the landscapes and life forms they've shown in the trailers, i want to see what else is hiding on these huge planets. Maybe for most it will be nothing but the one time i find something it could be amazing.
In terms of the whole real life vs playing a game it's a pointless comparison to me. Games can't replicate the real world. When you kill someone in a game you're not actually killing them. When you command an army it's not like taking a real army into battle. When their is a zombie chasing you around the corner there is no actual threat to your safety.
Yet when we play these games we feel joy, we feel happiness, we feel fear and in general we feel emotions. Will this game replicate the feeling of going to the moon or other such incredible feats, obviously not. That doesn't mean that they can't fill you with a sense of wonder or make you feel that excitement you get when seeing something or somewhere for the first time. To me games like this offer similar benefits to exploring the real world. Again i'm not saying that searching a cave in NMS is the same is exploring a cave in the real world but the feelings are similar. Unfortunately i can't be exploring and discovering new things in the real world every day and certainly not the things i will be discovering here so this game scratches that itch.
Edit: I'm not saying they will necessarily achieve what they have set out to. I know nothing about the tech or how likely it is that they can pull off all they have said. I'm just talking about the concept of exploration in general.
Actually, part of the reason the exploration incentive works in NMS is because it uses procedural generation.
You are literally discovering places. If you get to a planet for the first time, you are the first human being to lay eyes on it. You are visiting a place no one else -- not even the developers, have seen. Sure you can say any game that uses random seeds applies to this, but the fact that everyone who plays NMS is exploring a galaxy built off of one seed kinds gives a sort of permanence to those places you discover. You're finding a new place that other people might be able to find. It might be really interesting if you become the first person to find what ends up becoming one of the most interesting planets in the game.
You are literally discovering places. If you get to a planet for the first time, you are the first human being to lay eyes on it. You are visiting a place no one else -- not even the developers, have seen. Sure you can say any game that uses random seeds applies to this, but the fact that everyone who plays NMS is exploring a galaxy built off of one seed kinds gives a sort of permanence to those places you discover. You're finding a new place that other people might be able to find. It might be really interesting if you become the first person to find what ends up becoming one of the most interesting planets in the game.
Trojan
Member
According to the Witness blog, they've been in "finish-the-game" mode for over 6 months and it looks like they're focusing on a lot of back-end engine functionality. My speculation: I feel like this game will come out in summer of 2015 based on how much of a perfectionist Jonathan Blow is as well as it sounds like they're still tweaking content across the game.
http://the-witness.net/news/
I think you missed my follow up on this subject. We don't really disagree with one another.
Yeah, I follow the blog and Jonathan Blow on Twitter. He's been tweeting a lot about optimization and coding/compiling bugs that I don't understand. But they've been doing that for months as you noted, without an update from their previously stated "2014" goal. So who knows.
FlyingSaucer
Banned
Some lovely points in this article. For once the future seems bright.
Goldenroad
Member
My 11 year old nephew's two favorite games are Call of Duty and Minecraft. Those two games target the exact same demographic, adolescent male gamers. Too much generalizing about the audiences for those two games in this thread. Both are targeted at gamers and both excel at hitting those demos.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
My buddy's kid plays Minecraft and Battlefield. I think the author is really discovering what makes casual gamers better than enthusiasts. It's because they play games for what they are. They fuck around and have a great time, regardless of genre.
Scoring achievements or worrying about resolution is the boring shit that only enthusiasts care about.
Can't wait for No Man's Sky. Truly sounds like a breath of fresh air.
Scoring achievements or worrying about resolution is the boring shit that only enthusiasts care about.
Can't wait for No Man's Sky. Truly sounds like a breath of fresh air.
Mushroomer25
Member
I think he's mostly right. The current age of kids playing Minecraft are going to grow up, and they're going to want more open games, rather than linear expeirences like CoD.
However, I still think there's a place for that sort of game. The people who play CoD now, weren't neccessarily huge gamers as kids. They probably weren't huge fans of Pokemon, which seems to have the most natural parallel to the current Minecraft phenomenon. Rather, they're coming into games at an older age - and want something that is rewarding on a more immediate level.
There's a place for different types of games across every audience.
However, I still think there's a place for that sort of game. The people who play CoD now, weren't neccessarily huge gamers as kids. They probably weren't huge fans of Pokemon, which seems to have the most natural parallel to the current Minecraft phenomenon. Rather, they're coming into games at an older age - and want something that is rewarding on a more immediate level.
There's a place for different types of games across every audience.
The cynic in me thinks marketing will win out, as usual. Today's young'uns will still, by and large, grow into teenagers who buy in droves whatever the AAA industry wants them to buy.
EDIT: I should add/clarify, I'm more optimistic about the developer side of the currently budding generation than the consumer side.
EDIT: I should add/clarify, I'm more optimistic about the developer side of the currently budding generation than the consumer side.
Icyflamez96
Member
What are those exactly?
that's a bing-o
it IS the meaning in of itself
plus No Man's Sky actually does have a real final objective and progress and a progressive difficulty curve the further in the game you get, so even for people who aren't just into exploration can potentially find their niche in the game anyway
ephemeral garbage
Member
I spent hours upon hours upon hours in high school exploring the Mandelbrot set. At like, an twentieth of a frame per second. No goal, no externally provided narrative, purely procedural content. And it was incredibly entertaining.
I don't buy the linkbait headline, there's absolutely room for both types of games. I'm not self-centered enough to think it's everybody's cup of tea, but that should go both ways, right?
I don't buy the linkbait headline, there's absolutely room for both types of games. I'm not self-centered enough to think it's everybody's cup of tea, but that should go both ways, right?
Icyflamez96
Member
Yeah the title is very inflammatory but I do think the article has a valid point. I personally think it's inevitable at this point that more open ended games will have a much bigger place in the industry in the upcoming future.
m_shortpants
Member
I'm going to with Brad Shoemaker's theory that they're keeping some stuff secret with regards to storm and everything.
akachan ningen
Member
This Murray fuck is only talking about extremes. As if all games are either like minecraft or call of duty. How about the thousands of games that fall somewhere in between? You go too far to one end of the spectrum and you end up with trash like proteus.
ephemeral garbage
Member
I can hope :3
I love adventure, asking questions (who, what, when, where), and absolute freedom from the start. I love Minecraft. I love Day Z. I also love Skyrim. I love doing things my way from start to finish.
I love the unknown, the surreal feeling of traversing uncharted territory. There's natural feelings of suspense, enjoyment, achievement within games like Minecraft and hopefully No Man's Sky as well. Those feelings have been more-or-less absent with the current crop of AAA titles within the past decade.
I had no idea No Man's Sky was the game I've been waiting for my entire life. Sean Murray has been sent to rescue me from video game hell.
I love the unknown, the surreal feeling of traversing uncharted territory. There's natural feelings of suspense, enjoyment, achievement within games like Minecraft and hopefully No Man's Sky as well. Those feelings have been more-or-less absent with the current crop of AAA titles within the past decade.
I had no idea No Man's Sky was the game I've been waiting for my entire life. Sean Murray has been sent to rescue me from video game hell.
CaptainGyro
Banned
I guess some people agree here with him, but I really really dislike his"As a veteran gamer, you almost feel guilty doing this. Oh I’m wasting time, what have I achieved? What’s my score? Tell me Xbox! Validate what I’m doing! Legitimatise me!” line. I screw around in games constantly wasting time doing random stuff that I just feel like doing . I never had anything like the reaction he talks about
travisbickle
Member
But you've seen here where people won't play a game unless it has "virtual well done stickers".
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Good, I hope these kind of games replace traditional competitive shooters for what appeals to the young demographic. More creativity, less attention shortening k/d ratio garbage. Nothing wrong with multi shooters, I just dislike how much cod has captured the young generation compared to what I had back in the day that seemed to inspire more imagination. Yes, those were side effects due to limitations in visuals, though with games like Minecraft and NMS at least the building and explore-a-thon components will give their minds more quiet spaces to dwell in. Wonder and awe is much needed in games these days.
Peanut Butter
Member
Why would you hope for that? These competitive games are appealing to the younger demographic because they are fun to play and they provide hours and hours of entertainment. Last time I checked, gaming is about having fun.
This is like when people say "Man, I wish CoD and Assassin's Creed would stop coming out every year." Like, why? People want them because they enjoy it.
CaptainGyro
Banned
eh I also hate his quote in the article where he says "“When I play Battlefield, I actually find it really engaging; you’re in this astonishing war scenario, you have a tightness in your stomach, a tension. But then you shoot someone and you get a headshot bonus; and then it’s ‘oh of course, I’m just playing an arcade game, I’m just playing Virtual Cop again. It won’t let you let go.]
Fuck you Sean Murray. Headshot bonuses are awesome jerko, and no they really aren't immersion breaking if you have an imagination
Fuck you Sean Murray. Headshot bonuses are awesome jerko, and no they really aren't immersion breaking if you have an imagination
Messofanego
Banned
In case anyone missed it, Blow showed The Witness with a gameplay demo in the hands of a PSX presenter. He said it has 700 puzzles now (500 was the number back in Feb 2013), and would take 30-40 hours.
Good to hear you've played it.
lastflowers
Banned
From what I've seen of the game, it doesn't appeal to me. I'm glad it does for others, I can see why people generally seem to gush over it.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I had missed this. Thanks so much.
travisbickle
Member
He talks about new gamers wanting a different experience from Call of Duty, not the same experience as Minecraft.
He also states "Hopefully not too late in 2015" as the release date. Has been and still is my most anticipated game to come out.
It's more than just a great outlet for creativity, the systems in Minecraft are great for emergent gameplay as well.
Even if you have little interest in building huge castles it can be fun to just play a survival map for a while.
No man's sky needs to be emergent too if it wants to reach the "Minecraft audience".