Legend of Zelda Wii U Gameplay Demo
- Thread starter zakislam
- Start date
- Status
Come now. Even if you dislike Skyward Sword that much, he still led on Minish Cap which is arguably a stronger entry in the franchise than ALBW. Fujibayashi is legit.
TheMoon
Member
Depends on your taste
Depends on his future/current ideas/decisions.
A person is not a color. Fujibayashi isn't "red" where you everything painted with that color will always look red and always the exact same kind of red.
Well...I'm sure everyone already knows my opinion. I thought his design philosophy in SS was abhorrent. SS and TMC are my least favorite Zeldas.
Though I really enjoyed Oracle of Ages.
ReyVGM
Member
Because that's a shift that is not really necessary (in my opinion). Look at what happened to Bionic Commando once they let the character jump that Rearmed sequel.
If Nintendo makes a Mario platformer where you couldn't jump, that would be a huge shift, but is it a necessary shift?
So in my opinion, let the jumping in Zelda be limited to an item or to auto jump.
If Nintendo adds an actual jump button to 3D Zelda games, then next thing you know people are asking for double jumps, manual somersaults, or parkour like in Assasins Creed.
Which is perfectly fine, in other types of games. There are lots of other paradigm shifts they could try, free jumping is not necessarily one of them.
What I would love if they could take some of the best things about the Zelda games and combine them into this game. For example, let the NPCs have a schedule like in Majora's Mask, have crafting like in SS and the DS Zeldas, have rings/masks that grant you special abilities. That way you can have a ton of rewards for exploring the overworld instead of receiving rupees, hearts or just sightseeing.
Skyward sword's general philosophy of making the areas outside dungeons playing similar to the inside of the dungeons was great, imo. The issue was the recycling of those areas and the unnecessary padding. The game could have been 10 hours shorter and would have benefited greatly from that. Don't have me climb all the way up a mountain, see the dungeon door, and then tell me I need to climb back down the mountain to find parts of a key. It's so discouraging. Yes, the paths you take down the mountain are new, and you open up shortcuts, but man if it doesn't feel bad.
Any backtracking/repetition/revisiting of old areas should have been for 100% completion (heart pieces, collectibles, etc), and not required by the main story of the game.
That slippery-slope fallacy.
Well, we already know you can jump off the horse, so you're probably going to be disappointed here.
I wouldn't want to waste a button on jump. But Link being able to climb better would be nice. Speaking of MM, Link was able to roll around like Sonic, hover around like Kirby and swim like a dolphin. Giving Link a new function would be great. And since the verticality is so important this time...climbing would be nice.
Oh, certainly. I'm not denying that.
Every designer has a philosophy, though, a set of values, an approach etc.
How would you react if the director for the next Zelda game was, say, Motomu Toriyama or David Cage?
ReyVGM
Member
I believe you are incorrect.
'According to Fujibayashi, the most important aspect of game design is making the fundamental rule set of a video game absolutely clear to a player'
This is exactly the opposite of what I like about the series. He completely pissed all over what makes Zelda, Zelda for me. I hate his design philosophy, it needs to die in a fire.
There's always been a schism of fans who enjoy traditional Zelda or experimental Zelda. The fandom is very complex.
I miss Iwata Asks
I've loved Fujibayashi's philosophies with SS, so I'm fine if he's directing.
The guys looking for a "darker tone" need to go see if Koizumi can come back over to write the scenarios again. Spoiler:
Also, SS follows the same design principles of MM, so if you liked MM, I still can't fathom why you'd have a problem with SS. Also, it's really hard to say if Fujibayashi even has "trademark" characteristics, it's not like there's a specific thing that's carried over from all the games he's worked on.
The guys looking for a "darker tone" need to go see if Koizumi can come back over to write the scenarios again. Spoiler:
He's not gonna get off that Mario train.
Also, SS follows the same design principles of MM, so if you liked MM, I still can't fathom why you'd have a problem with SS. Also, it's really hard to say if Fujibayashi even has "trademark" characteristics, it's not like there's a specific thing that's carried over from all the games he's worked on.
ReyVGM
Member
Because there are some things that do not need to change, while other things do.
I don't see what's so disagreeable about that design philosophy to be honest. I want to know the fundamental rule set to every game I play before I start playing. If I know how stuff works, I can experiment properly without running into walls by doing stuff that simply isn't possible. I don't want my time wasted. Of course, I don't want tutorials to be overbearing. A simple text box is sufficient for me, but I like the way SS and Zelda in general handles it: you get a new item, and the room you're in will require you to use it to get out of it. By doing the puzzle, you'll see how it works and know its limits. You can then go to work front there.
I fail to see how they are similar at all. :\
They both had the same problem to solve: "How do we make a dense Zelda?" But they find their answer in completely different ways. One decided to do something super unique and unprecedented while the other filled the game with backtracking and constant fetch quests...while segmented the shit out of everything and destroying any sense of mystery, unease or story integration.
SS made me loathe having to leave the dungeons.
I guess I was under the impression that Zelda was fun because of the fact that you had to figure stuff out on your own. And the amount of secrets they hid in the world and the environment. Zelda was devious and fun because it would trick you into going in circles and making you lose your way. You HAD to have the cunning to think past the obvious. Fun came from not knowing, and having to explore and discover on your own. SS sucked the soul dry from the game when it decided that letting the player do things on their own was a bad idea. All of the environments are so heavily designed to lead the player to where the developer wants the player to go. It's excessive and infuriating.
It's been a long time since I've played MM. I remember the game having its fair share of backtracking and fetchquesting such as collecting the eggs for the Zora Singer, or following the ghost Goron around Snowhead. MM didn't have much of an overworld either. Most of the activities centered around the individual hubs you can go to. The overworld was small and pretty barren. You can compare it to the sky overworld in SS I think.
ReyVGM
Member
You guys are scaring me with that Fujibayashi guy.
Reminds me of those Square guys that were responsible for that Final Fantasy 2 experience that most people hated. Also in charge of the SaGa games (which are somewhat obtuse to play), and also in charge of the downfall of the Mana games after turning the games into something the beloved original trilogy wasn't.
I really need to play Skyward Sword soon before everyone ruins it even more. Personally, I hear people complain a lot about Navi, or about the empty overworld in Ocarina/Twilight/Wind Waker, or about linearity, or about training/slow starts. But honestly, that has never bothered me one bit. I never thought any of that was annoying or bothersome. So I wonder if I'll be bothered in SS about all that stuff people complain about here.
Reminds me of those Square guys that were responsible for that Final Fantasy 2 experience that most people hated. Also in charge of the SaGa games (which are somewhat obtuse to play), and also in charge of the downfall of the Mana games after turning the games into something the beloved original trilogy wasn't.
I really need to play Skyward Sword soon before everyone ruins it even more. Personally, I hear people complain a lot about Navi, or about the empty overworld in Ocarina/Twilight/Wind Waker, or about linearity, or about training/slow starts. But honestly, that has never bothered me one bit. I never thought any of that was annoying or bothersome. So I wonder if I'll be bothered in SS about all that stuff people complain about here.
Yeah. I quit MM several times before completing it. But the game integrated the story into the gameplay. Everything felt like it belonged together and formed to make a really complete story...that I, as a player, was a part of. So, even when I was suffering through the game, the story played a more important tangible role.
Painful truth is painful
Yeah, that was one of the best aspects of Majora's Mask.
The narrative felt organic and was seamlessly integrated into the game.
Skyward sword is a fantastic game. The idea Fujibayashi is going to ruin zelda is dumb. Every zedla has flaws that some people hate while other loves, SS is no different.
You should write the scenario.
That's true, but I'm not talking about separate people. There's a few people that do flip-flop. Won't name any names.
I suppose I can see that some things are more important to different people than others. In my mind, though, it's just silly to say that something needs to change. If the developers want to change something, they will, and it may or may not be good. Many of the changes in various franchises were ones people never asked for, and in some cases asked specifically not to change them, but they ended up making the game so much better.
TheMoon
Member
How did you know about my absolute disdain for David Cage?
That said, Aonuma would slap the shit out of him since he'd still have veto power over everything^^
Painful truth is painful
Yeah, that was one of best aspects of Majora's Mask.
The narrative felt organic and was seamlessly integrated into the game.
Yeah. I would also argue that certain parts of MM weren't "fun," nor do I think they were meant to be. It felt like MM traded "fun" in exchange for a completely different form of entertainment altogether. It's basically a stress and distress game, which I am a fan of.
Anyone who plays MM knows that the game doesn't really reward the player the same way any other game would.
SS is just bleeeugh. Feels bland, and hollow in comparison. Time is still, none of the characters say anything non-tutorial related. Story is constantly on hold outside of key plot points...etc.
Ah man, it's a bummer that you weren't able to enjoy SS. I really loved playing through the game. It had a great sense of vastness and wonderment to it.
Here's my LTTP thread if you're interested:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=894926
Imagining David Cage make Zelda makes my stomach churn. XD
If it's any consolation, I enjoyed most of the dungeons and 2 cutscenes. I also enjoyed the final boss and all of the Silent Realms.
I voice concerns now because SS had heavy structural design elements that I completely despise. (Not trusting the player) I'll be done with the series if they continue with what SS brought up.
Yeah, I loved SS precisely because of the very design philosophy so many people disliked.
There will probably never be another Zelda game with the perfect storm of scenario and structure like Majora's Mask. There will probably never be a Zelda that places as much emphasis on character. Character depth was a direct result of the unique time system.
So enjoy the MM remake and get ready for something else entirely.
So enjoy the MM remake and get ready for something else entirely.
Well, the hints have been dropped that this will be more of a exploration with progression done via puzzles and mechanics to procede ala zelda 1. Which is why i stay excited, i love it. i choose to imagine something like metroid prime with an enourmous scale and feels like old zelda games. i can hardly type that without drooling.
Yeah. I'd be fine with them taking pointers from Okami or Earthbound then.
Just put interesting characters in the actual game world. And just make it charming, quirky and surprisingly deep. I find it nearly unfathomable that Zelda has gotten so much worse with character interaction.
TheMoon
Member
Why would they though. That's the part I don't get about the Fujibayashi Panic Police. What have we seen of Zelda U so far? Wide open spaces, mysterious locations, potential to explore, discover, (supposedly) random threats to deal with. What have they implemented as a key thing in ALBW as a result of the SS feedback? An non-intrusive and optional (!) hint-system and no nagging companion along with a completely open structure.
Does anybody really think Fujibayashi would then go "hahaha, now that we have distracted them I can execute my evil plan, ignore everything that other director guy did in ALBW that people liked and introduce Eponamon, the talking horse that tells you everything there is to know about everything and I will segment this gigantic open space with invisible barriers that keep you from deviating from my beloved linear path" all the while Aonuma is off in a corner getting high on some class-A deku kush?
Seriously though. How is this guy such a panic inducing force to you guys?
edit: Btw, not addressing you directly or specifically, zeldablue. This is more a general response to anyone worried about these specifics things.
Whatever it is, I think we are getting something different. Maybe it will be good, bad, who knows. But there is no way SS design works in an overworld like that.
LegendofLex
Member
Because every game they promise that we'll get something that exceeds Ocarina of Time/A Link to the Past/The Legend of Zelda in terms of exploration/gameplay/quality, but with every game we usually get one step forward, ten steps back.
After about the fifth time, people are starting to decide they won't be fooled.
But they have made better games that OOT and OG zelda.
Generic plot involving Zelda being your preppy best friend who is immediately kidnapped after you have a swell time with her...and then her disappearing for the rest of the game as you set out to save her. Oh and nothing else in the story is more important than saving this character who had 10 minutes of screen time.
Bad scenario writing. Villian wears purple and is generically evil because his main motive in life is to be evil.
That kind of stuff.
Generic? Yeah I remember all those time where zelda was link best friend, oh wait. And the villain thing can be use for every zelda game.
Isn't that like... every Zelda?
I prefer Zelda getting kidnapped at the tail end when most of the story is already over so it doesn't even matter.
Or, you know, not getting kidnapped at all.
So two games in the series = generic and Even then link relationship in SS is way more fleshed out than MC.
I don't disagree with you, but I'm just saying that's not necessarily a Fujibayashi "thing". The weird irony is that SS had arguably the best, most fleshed out Zelda in the series, outside of Spirit Tracks Zelda. But I've had this conversation with you before, and you simply aren't into it. Which is fine.
But yeah, you won't get the feeling you're looking for until Koizumi comes back to write the scenarios again. That's not gonna happen any time soon, though. Koizumi's stuff usually had the twinge of bitterness I think you're looking for. (ALTTP, LA) You can see he even tried to do it in Super Mario Galaxy with Rosalina's backstory.
NinjaBoyLao
Member
Amazing horse animation.
Feels like the most barebones plot you can make for a Zelda game. If they invest all this time in making a unique world and then start off with "save Zelda" I'm going to be really mad.
Lol...someone actually on topic.
Now you're speaking my language.
Although I'd say as far as character interaction goes, they've all been maintaining par outside of MM.
Zeldablue, with all due respect, I read your posts and sometimes think that you're just a burnt out fan. Like there was a time where this series seemed magical to you but you slowly just grew out of it and things that you were cool with previously weren't going to cut it. Because most of these criticisms and concerns seem awfully selectively applied.
- Status