Legend of Korra Book 4: Balance |OT| A Feast of Crows

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He does call Iroh a traitor. Go back to Siege of the North Part 2.

Well, he just calls Zuko a failure, but both are grounds for execution, apparently. I'm not sure why he perceives Iroh to be a traitor. Because he fought Zhao at the end? Did that even get out to the rest of the fire nation?

Either way, I'm not sure how it proves much about him being racist. He could just as easily see it as a personal betrayal where Iroh is going to go against him for the throne. But like I said, he identifies with the fire nation being an extension of his own power rather than himself being an extension of the fire nations power. If iroh betrayed the fire nation, that means he betrayed Ozai. Ozai would not give two fucks if he thought Iroh merely betrayed Zhao. He does want the fire nation to rule the world and possibly even exterminate other benders, and if you want to call that racism, I guess it is appropriate, but it isn't racism like how we think of it, where the KKK think there is some inherent power to being white itself. Ozai loves the fire nation because he sees it as an extension of his own power, rather than something he values for itself.

If nothing else, think of how his rationale for when Zuko spoke out of turn in the war meeting that lead to his scar. First off, if he was just loyal to fire nation, then he would have had similar issues to fire nation soldiers being sacrificed for no reason like the plan was suggesting. Further, if it was just that Zuko spoke out of turn to the general, he also presumably wouldn't care. But he considered Zuko speaking out of turn as an insult to him. Personally. Even though Zuko was objecting to another dude altogether. Then he banished his son because of his lack of respect towards him, personally. It's not unthinkable he'd see Iroh's 'betrayal' to Zhao/the fire nation as a similar affront.
 
You'd still be able to do that. No one would get confused over which story model you'd be talking about. For the most part, people just absorb stories. They don't put in the effort to modulating it.

I guess but it still feels like a handwave that they don't fucking deserve.

Although that method could bring a similar effect of awareness due to the amount of queries/attention it might receive, hell its happening right now



Problem is, Korra really didn't have like a reasoning for keeping the portals open. There was nothing to back her combining the worlds. She just kind of went with her gut. So it's like okay. She still made that decision, and it should be noted in history. But from a story perspective, why should we as an audience feel that this decision, was one of her maturing as a character? Because there was no real thought behind her actions. She herself even admits this.

Which is really my problem with a lot of the things she's done so far. I think on paper, she's certainly done more then Aang (and you could argue she's done far more important things than Aang). But she kind of just does her duty as Avatar (just shows up). And we are missing that kind of arc that carries us from her character from beginning to end. Where her growth as a character starts to inform her decisions.

Korra has always come off as a very confused and conflicted person. And maybe that is the point of this entire series. I mean, given the entire Book 4 has been about her feeling haunted by her demons, and feeling like she's not relevant. It feels like Korra overall has been a bumbling avatar, that kind of fails and stumbles into success.

And that's fine. But I'm just wondering how they deal with this by the end of it. Like how does Korra accept this. Or what is her end game, the way she wraps up things for herself. As an audience, I can tell you it's kind of like, okay. She's done some great things. But I'm not particularly feeling like, in wow of them, because they weren't (again) decisions or actions informed by her character changing and growing. I wish there was more of an investment in the character. That her actions each season was a sign of her growth, and learning from her past. And maturing. But I never really got that sense (although I will say, Korra in Book 3 was a lot more matured and changed. I mean outside of the finale, just her day to day actions, were a lot more informed by her past. So I give them credit for that. But I just mean all of the big things she's done, none of them feel like they were a result of her maturing).

Pretty much a way more detailed version of my issue.

Thanks man lol
 
I think the discussion is played out although I think there are interesting economic and philosophical discussions to be had relating to the 'no ownership of ideas' position. I would just add that I don't think the conversation was purely semantics anymore than a previous little discussion the thread had about language. If I recall we were discussing people using the word villain instead of antagonist and how that leads to confusion and difficulties in discourse, something I don't consider a trivial concern.

Choice of words and their meaning is incredibly important, words have power and the way we use them shapes our lives and the stories we tell. Yes, if we all understand what people 'really mean' and respond accordingly, then word choice never matters in a general sense, but we should want it to matter, we should idealize variety and specificity in our vocabularies. It increases our ability to express and understand ideas.

"Canon" carries latent information regarding the origins and labeling of material. Some may not like that it values the author's work differently than other work, but I feel quite comfortable in saying that the majority of society finds value in distinguishing between original content and fan fiction, and so we have a word that helps us do that. You may not think there should be a distinction, but that is a cultural/political belief as opposed to a language problem. "Society should not distinguish" is a different argument then "what word should society use to distinguish". As I suggested in an earlier post, I think you have a problem with canon existing as a concept more than whether it was the appropriate word to use.

Yep.

The problem is that Veelk doesn't think that there is a huge functional difference between derivative and original fiction. You could say that all modern day stories are simply reinterpretations of older ones but that's a really broad way to think about storytelling and is disingenuous to content creators.

I'm working on my own original fiction. The time and effort it takes to properly world-build is massive. I have done an incredible amount of research. Throwing things out only to put them back in. Completely rethinking how it all fits together. Not anywhere close to being finished.

Eventually, I will share my creation. I would hope that others will find it compelling enough that they will write their own fan art, fan fiction, alternate universes, etc. embellishing and building upon the story and world that I have spent years working to create.

This is what gives the creator(s) the authority to declare something as canon.

Fans may arguably be able to write a better story than what is canon but their own work is based on a finished piece.
 
I think the discussion is played out although I think there are interesting economic and philosophical discussions to be had relating to the 'no ownership of ideas' position. I would just add that I don't think the conversation was purely semantics anymore than a previous little discussion the thread had about language. If I recall we were discussing people using the word villain instead of antagonist and how that leads to confusion and difficulties in discourse, something I don't consider a trivial concern.

Choice of words and their meaning is incredibly important, words have power and the way we use them shapes our lives and the stories we tell. Yes, if we all understand what people 'really mean' and respond accordingly, then word choice never matters in a general sense, but we should want it to matter, we should idealize variety and specificity in our vocabularies. It increases our ability to express and understand ideas.

"Canon" carries latent information regarding the origins and labeling of material. Some may not like that it values the author's work differently than other work, but I feel quite comfortable in saying that the majority of society finds value in distinguishing between original content and fan fiction, and so we have a word that helps us do that. You may not think there should be a distinction, but that is a cultural/political belief as opposed to a language problem. "Society should not distinguish" is a different argument then "what word should society use to distinguish". As I suggested in an earlier post, I think you have a problem with canon existing as a concept more than whether it was the appropriate word to use.

Much of this is true. I've often commented on the fact is there isn't a lot of academia devoted to updating the meanings of various narrative terms to be consistent with the modern usage. I do not currently have time to go into it in as much detail as I'd like, however.

Still, I've explained my view of canon in detail. I slightly disagree with your assessment of my view, as I need a term for which story model I deem the 'official' one of the various ones I have to choose from. It seems appropriate to me to call that canon. Perhaps we can think of a different term for it and leave the canon to be designated as merely the descriptor of the original authors source work, but headcanon doesn't seem like it, because it implies it is subservient to ordinary canon when instead it is the actual chosen version of what happens.

But yes, I think we've more or less reached an impasse, because the disagreement is centered around the axiomatic notion that original authors have special authority over their work, and I don't see the justification for that when stories are supposed to be designed to be most effective and that notion doesn't serve that purpose.

Yep.

The problem is that Veelk doesn't think that there is a huge functional difference between derivative and original fiction. You could say that all modern day stories are simply reinterpretations of older ones but that's a really broad way to think about storytelling and is disingenuous to content creators.

I'm working on my own original fiction. The time and effort it takes to properly world-build is massive. I have done an incredible amount of research. Throwing things out only to put them back in. Completely rethinking how it all fits together. Not anywhere close to being finished.

Eventually, I will share my creation. I would hope that others will find it compelling enough that they will write their own fan art, fan fiction, alternate universes, etc. embellishing and building upon the story and world that I have spent years working to create.

This is what gives the creator(s) the authority to declare something as canon.

It's not a fundamental difference. Or rather not a catergorical difference, it's a quantitative difference. It is a difference of degrees. You still have to world build in most fanfiction, still develop characters, do characterization, etc. You have to do everything you have to do with original fiction. There's just more of it predone because you aren't starting from scratch. But the actual work is just a difference of degrees, and yes, even if it's really broad, us retelling stories over and over through the centuries is pretty much true. It's not being disingenuous to content creators, who I respect very much, it's just a fact. Fanfiction writers of your content will do the same things you are doing, but to different degrees.

Just the fact that you mention doing research is evidence of that. Research by definition is looking for elements that you can replicate in your work. Taking one established idea, and connecting it to another to create something new, but you are still using old ideas. Elsewise, the research would be worthless.
 
I guess but it still feels like a handwave that they don't fucking deserve.

Although that method could bring a similar effect awareness due to the amount of queries/attention it might receive, hell its happening right now





Pretty much a way more detailed version of my issue.

Thanks man lol

Glad it had some value. Seems this entire discussion is about Canon or some crap. *Lol time to leave the thread and come back when the finale airs.*
 
Glad it had some value. Seems this entire discussion is about Canon or some crap. *Lol time to leave the thread and come back when the finale airs.*

I'm with you on that one!

PEACE

i'll be back tomorrow

ps: my condolences on your avatar bet. that xbox logo *shudder*
 
I always thought Korra lined up pretty consistently with Airbender. The only thing I had a problem with were the Spirit Portals in North and South Poles. They were never hinted at in Airbender at all and kind of retconned an important part of it i.e. you can't bend. Hell, if I'm not mistaken, only the Avatar could enter the spirit world at will because of the whole portal between two worlds kind of thing. But then you got somebody like Zaheer and Aiwei communicating with each other in their.

But yeah other than that I would consider Korra just as canon as say Batman Beyond to the The Animated Series or DBZ to the original Dragon Ball.

? You still can't bend in the spirit world (as a spirit). Bending requires a physical form so if you go through the portals and enter the spirit world physically you can bend.

Unless you're referring to something else entirely that I've missed.

How is it her advantage? All of this stuff about allowing the worlds to join wasn't really made until Vaatu and Raava got put into the lore, and if they say "we actually wanted to put this in AtLA but didn't have time" I call bullshit they had more than plenty of episodes to at the least mention those two. Not to mention that Aang was off learning the elements and preparing to take down a super power Nazi army in a very specific date with what amounted to the rebel army. Korra didn't even explicitly do it herself, she fucked up and it happened and then it was all "maybe this isn't a bad thing" and by pure luck airbenders started to come back.

If you're talking spirits in general that's fine, we knew there was such a thing as being spiritual so it isn't impossible to understand that they wanted to expand on it.

Eh, the whole Raava and Vaatu thing would have been an unnecessary distraction to A:TLA plot. Aang already has to deal with the Fire Nation. What would be the point in bringing up harmonic convergence when it doesn't even happen in his lifetime?
 
It's not a matter of which was more capable or had the best chance of being progressive, dear sir, it's a matter of which one did more progressive actions.

Korra did more progressive actions.

By pure luck was penicillin and teflon discovered, among countless other progressive entities. Can't hold that against Korra that she didn't know airbenders would be reborn due to her actions, but you can credit her for her agency in the matter. She meant to lead the world into a new spiritual age, and she did.

I guess we'll have to disagree on the definition of 'progressive' and what amounts to being there. Aang helped dethrone the conquering power that had taken over the world, plus led the creation of a new world and mentality that didn't think of it taboo that people from different nations could live together and marry. Korra on the other hand happened upon her big inspiring move. One person is a leader of the free world, the other is the equivalent of Columbus. If Columbus had been following somebody the whole way through, and when their ship sank he said "you know what let's keep going I have a feeling the way this guy was going might have something interesting".

So yeah. Agreed to disagree.

Eh, the whole Raava and Vaatu thing would have been an unnecessary distraction to A:TLA plot. Aang already has to deal with the Fire Nation. What would be the point in bringing up harmonic convergence when it doesn't even happen in his lifetime?
My argument was that they hadn't thought of the system that thoroughly up to then. And that if he was implying that the creators wanted to have the origin and the idea of harmonic convergence the whole time from all the way back then, that there is little proof. Unless somebody can show me something that isn't them during the creation of Korra saying "oh yeah yeah, that was a thing the whole time"

Midichlorians ftw.
 
All I wanted to do was talk about what you'd like to see if there was another Avatar show :(

How did it become this

I think the conversation is mostly done at this point, unless Kinvara wants to reply to what I wrote towards her. But I don't get it. The conversation everyone here is having is civil and intelligent, even if we disagree. Whats the issue?
 
I'm with you on that one!

PEACE

i'll be back tomorrow

ps: my condolences on your avatar bet. that xbox logo *shudder*

Well, I have an Xbox One haha. :P

But obviously PS4 is better. The bigger sin is
Elise from Ass Creed Unity. Game is awful. Character is awful. It's okay, I'll end up changing my avatar after I lose the best with the finale, when Mako x Korra is end game in the flash forward epilogue. :(
 
Well, I have an Xbox One haha. :P

But obviously PS4 is better. The bigger sin is
Elise from Ass Creed Unity. Game is awful. Character is awful. It's okay, I'll end up changing my avatar after I lose the best with the finale, when Mako x Korra is end game in the flash forward epilogue. :(

First AC I've skipped. Looks like I dodged a bullet by not preordering.

I honestly think it's 50/50 that Korra will reconnect with her past lives (in b4 she gets zapped by vaatu spirit beam or some shit), so I may have to change mine as well. We'll see in a few days.
 
First AC I've skipped. Looks like I dodged a bullet by not preordering.

I honestly think it's 50/50 that Korra will reconnect with her past lives (in b4 she gets zapped by vaatu spirit beam or some shit), so I may have to change mine as well. We'll see in a few days.

Woofington pmd me the story, and it was fuckin atrocious. So that is why I'm cringe about using the Avatar tbh. Ooof.
 
I didn't even play the game, I watched the walkthrough of the story. Such a perfectly good opportunity at a decent love quarrel story ruined by shitty characters.


edit: If somebody hasn't played the game and wants to know why it's bad you could probably read the wiki at this point, but you'd miss the context at how the characters didn't do the plot any favors. Basically imagine that every character, including the order of Assassins, is a group of 6-7 year olds and have the most childish arguments/disagreements and refused to see evidence because "NO NO NO BOBBY I TOLD YOU TO DO THIS, YOU DIDN'T I HATE YOU"
 
All I wanted to do was talk about what you'd like to see if there was another Avatar show :(

How did it become this

I don't think it should be in space. Honestly, I'd want it right after Korra's cycle was up. Just keep the combo going.

I could go for adult Korra shorts of her doing avatar things. I could go for the same with Aang. It's a rich franchise, a lot of stories that can be told.
 
Well, I have an Xbox One haha. :P

But obviously PS4 is better. The bigger sin is
Elise from Ass Creed Unity. Game is awful. Character is awful. It's okay, I'll end up changing my avatar after I lose the best with the finale, when Mako x Korra is end game in the flash forward epilogue. :(

First AC I've skipped. Looks like I dodged a bullet by not preordering.

I didn't even play the game, I watched the walkthrough of the story. Such a perfectly good opportunity at a decent love quarrel story ruined by shitty characters.


edit: If somebody hasn't played the game and wants to know why it's bad you could probably read the wiki at this point, but you'd miss the context at how the characters didn't do the plot any favors. Basically imagine that every character, including the order of Assassins, is a group of 6-7 year olds and have the most childish arguments/disagreements and refused to see evidence because "NO NO NO BOBBY I TOLD YOU TO DO THIS, YOU DIDN'T I HATE YOU"


Wait......what?

and people were saying that their interactions were the best parts of the story...
 
I don't think it should be in space. Honestly, I'd want it right after Korra's cycle was up. Just keep the combo going.

I could go for adult Korra shorts of her doing avatar things. I could go for the same with Aang. It's a rich franchise, a lot of stories that can be told.

You could end Korra's cycle really, really early and keep it from going to outer space that way. You'd end up in what amounts to.. I dunno.. the mid-late 50s? Early 60s?

Imagine the era of rock n' roll in Avatar land. You'd have firebenders inventing the electric guitar.
 
I am. Nothing has really ended yet. I'll bump the bets tomorrow.

Time for Makorra to happen out of nowhere in the epilogue heh. Looking forward to meeting their kids Aang sokka and Iroh Tenzin.

tumblr_nfax4jN4jm1slcbdvo1_1280.png
 
I always thought Korra lined up pretty consistently with Airbender. The only thing I had a problem with were the Spirit Portals in North and South Poles. They were never hinted at in Airbender at all and kind of retconned an important part of it i.e. you can't bend. Hell, if I'm not mistaken, only the Avatar could enter the spirit world at will because of the whole portal between two worlds kind of thing. But then you got somebody like Zaheer and Aiwei communicating with each other in their.

But yeah other than that I would consider Korra just as canon as say Batman Beyond to the The Animated Series or DBZ to the original Dragon Ball.

They did hint that others besides the Avatar could enter the Spirit World with Iroh, who journeyed there to look for his dead son.

Once the Spirit Portals where open, both world became much more joined and even more people are able to enter through meditation, although it is still not that common of an ability.
 
That made no sense Veelk.

No, you're just tied to an axiom that I don't believe there is any reason to maintain. Difference of opinions, but it's sensible. Authors don't own the stories they write except for legal purposes. You don't have to agree with me, but it's a simple thing to understand.
 
Problem is, Korra really didn't have like a reasoning for keeping the portals open. There was nothing to back her combining the worlds. She just kind of went with her gut. So it's like okay. She still made that decision, and it should be noted in history. But from a story perspective, why should we as an audience feel that this decision, was one of her maturing as a character? Because there was no real thought behind her actions. She herself even admits this.

Which is really my problem with a lot of the things she's done so far. I think on paper, she's certainly done more then Aang (and you could argue she's done far more important things than Aang). But she kind of just does her duty as Avatar (just shows up). And we are missing that kind of arc that carries us from her character from beginning to end. Where her growth as a character starts to inform her decisions.

Korra has always come off as a very confused and conflicted person. And maybe that is the point of this entire series. I mean, given the entire Book 4 has been about her feeling haunted by her demons, and feeling like she's not relevant. It feels like Korra overall has been a bumbling avatar, the kind that fails and stumbles into success.

And that's fine. But I'm just wondering how they deal with this by the end of it. Like how does Korra accept this. Or what is her end game, the way she wraps up things for herself. As an audience, I can tell you it's kind of like, okay. She's done some great things. But I'm not particularly feeling like, in wow of them, because they weren't (again) decisions or actions informed by her character changing and growing. I wish there was more of an investment in the character. That her actions each season was a sign of her growth, and learning from her past. And maturing. But I never really got that sense (although I will say, Korra in Book 3 was a lot more matured and changed. I mean outside of the finale, just her day to day actions, were a lot more informed by her past. So I give them credit for that. But I just mean all of the big things she's done, none of them feel like they were a result of her maturing).

Oh this was a very good post! :P

Yeah, pretty much. When I defended Korra's "legend" status, it was more like you said, that on paper, well, she has been pretty legendary. But we the audience didn't exactly get that feeling.

LoK actually made Aang more "Legendary" than ATLA in some ways, since by the end of ATLA, all that Aang did was defeat the Fire Nation in a war that his own absence started (I know, I know, it's not fair and Aang could've been killed if he had stayed at the Southern Air Temple, but that's the gist of it by the time his adventure becomes legend). But thanks to The Legend of Korra (and the comics) we see that his true legacy was much more, and it even involves the creation of a 5th nation.
 
It's not a fundamental difference. Or rather not a catergorical difference, it's a quantitative difference. It is a difference of degrees. You still have to world build in most fanfiction, still develop characters, do characterization, etc. You have to do everything you have to do with original fiction. There's just more of it predone because you aren't starting from scratch. But the actual work is just a difference of degrees, and yes, even if it's really broad, us retelling stories over and over through the centuries is pretty much true. It's not being disingenuous to content creators, who I respect very much, it's just a fact. Fanfiction writers of your content will do the same things you are doing, but to different degrees.

Just the fact that you mention doing research is evidence of that. Research by definition is looking for elements that you can replicate in your work. Taking one established idea, and connecting it to another to create something new, but you are still using old ideas. Elsewise, the research would be worthless.

You act like there's a trivial difference between the amount of work that goes into creating original content vs. fanfiction. This is like saying building a house is just as hard as repainting it.

The vast majority of world-building has already been done by the authors when it comes to fanfiction. Depending on the work, pre-existing characters are often used. I'm not saying that it takes no effort but it is so much easier to write fiction when you already have a concrete, pre-existing story to build upon.

Most of my research is based upon ecology and biology. Either way, I'm not just taking a world someone else has created, adding a few things, and attempting to establish it as my own "canon". Doing so would be incredibly disrespectful to the original content creators.

I find it comparable to people who look at a piece of art and say "oh, i could do this". Yeah, but you didn't. If someone hadn't gone through the effort of creating this finished composition in the first place, the idea would have never crossed your mind.
 
Are there any plans after LOK? is the series done?

Consider this: Nick fucked the production of the show, the creators were stumbling the whole way through this, Nick pushed it out of their normal channel into an online format, and Bryke are very unhappy with Nick.

So don't expect any more Avatar unless Nick allows people to do shit with the license, similar to the Star Wars novels. But there's probably not much of a market to doing Avatar universe material.
 
You act like there's a trivial difference between the amount of work that goes into creating original content vs. fanfiction. This is like saying building a house is just as hard as repainting it.

The vast majority of world-building has already been done by the authors when it comes to fanfiction. Depending on the work, pre-existing characters are often used. I'm not saying that it takes no effort but it is so much easier to write fiction when you already have a concrete, pre-existing story to build upon.

Most of my research is based upon ecology and biology. Either way, I'm not just taking a world someone else has created, adding a few things, and attempting to establish it as my own "canon". Doing so would be incredibly disrespectful to the original content creators.

I find it comparable to people who look at a piece of art and say "oh, i could do this better". Yeah, but you didn't. If someone hadn't gone through the effort of creating this finished composition in the first place, the idea would have never crossed your mind.

Bad analogy. Rebuilding a house requires fundamentally different kinds of work than painting. Like, you don't need hammer and nails and boards and concrete...totally different kinds of work. Fanfic writing requires all the same kind of work that writing does. They still need to character develop, to world build, to plot...if fanfiction was the same as just painting a house vs building a house, fanfiction would only consist of one element of writing. For example, a fanfiction that just has Aang develop. But you can't develop Aang without developing a plot. For his character to develop, things need to happen. And since the plot relates to the world as a whole as does Aang's character as the avatar, you also need to world build. You can't focus on one element in writing to the complete exclusion of others. To this end, it's more designing an entire house from scratch vs designing an addtional room to a house. You're still doing the same thing, but there is already some basis.

I can assure you, I'm not thinking any less for original content writers because of this. I acknowledge it is harder to work with new content wholesale vs working with established characters, plot and worlds. However, counting to 10,000,000 may be monumentally more difficult than counting to 100, but it's still counting. You are still doing fundamentally the same task, just on a greater scale.

I don't know what your story is or how ecology/biology relates to it, but if you are planning to use any of the information that you researched, then you are using an established idea to create something new by connecting it to other ideas. Functionally, this is identical to someone researching Korra and doing something different with her. Both are instances of using old idea in a different context.

Unless you can point out some fundamental, catergorical distinction between writing derivative content vs writing 'original' content (which itself is derivative of ideas you encounter throughout your life), I can't agree with you.



Edit: Also, thought experiment. By your definition of derivative work, wouldn't sequels be on par with fanfiction? After all, once the original work is completed, it has set the established characters and setting and plot and tone, etc. However, what if 2 writers chose to do a sequel. One is the original writers, the other is a fanfic writers.

Suppose the original writer never intended the sequel. He established his world, did everything, and was done with it until he changed his mind. So now, according to you, the original piece was a piece of content is fundamentally different from works that derive from it because it is a lot more work in establishing a world than building off an established one.

However, a sequel is a different story. Now, the sequel is deriving from the original. And so is the fanfic sequel the other writer is writing. So who is putting in more work now? Since they are both creating another work from a different work.

By your reasoning, a sequel should be equally difficult for both the original and fanfic writer, since they are now working off an established franchise. Which means, your indignation of fanfic writers taking something as 'canon' should only apply to people who compare their work to genuinely new content. Something like Legend of Korra, a sequel to Avatar, would not apply for that rationale.

Edit 2: What about people who write on real life events and people, and create a dramatic replication of the events that occurred? They study the people and event involved and make a narrative from it, like schindler's list. Do they also not work as hard because they derive their plot, characters, and setting from something already established?
 
No, you're just tied to an axiom that I don't believe there is any reason to maintain. Difference of opinions, but it's sensible. Authors don't own the stories they write except for legal purposes. You don't have to agree with me, but it's a simple thing to understand.

It's not that I don't agree with you, on the merits of taking down the notion of cannon or that a fictional world should follow a good story and not copyright or the rights of authors.

But look: If it ever comes to be that a franchise sucks so much that fan fiction is better, then by the time that happens, nobody will probably give a damn about said franchise anyway, or like Star Wars, it will survive with nostalgia and the (newly rekindled) hope of a better future for the fictional universe from whoever society agrees to be the caretaker of the franchise.

The problem with crowdsourcing cannon or a story, is the same as many other experiments with communal work: when nobody is the sole owner, then everybody is, but then egos get naturally involved, then others don't give a shit, and the whole thing falls apart.

There's very little Tolkien fan fiction or fan art compared to modern sagas that still have their authors or creators alive because nobody is going to care for newly created content that wants to add to the story. JRR is dead, and everybody agrees that we will never really know if Tom Bombadil is Eru or not, and other unresolved mysteries, and so the fan engagement isn't as big as modern fictions. The LOTR films are considered to have created their own canon, so it isn't really a case of the original canon being taken up by fans.

We all agree that everybody has a right to their own little universe, and a story... You, as a consumer of fictional stories, may find it difficult to understand, but I can empathize with people who though of it first.

This whole discussion is turning into the 2012 U.S. election, with accusation between those that "produce" and those that "take."

EDIT:

Also, thought experiment. By your definition of derivative work, wouldn't sequels be on par with fanfiction? After all, once the original work is completed, it has set the established characters and setting and plot and tone, etc. However, what if 2 writers chose to do a sequel. One is the original writers, the other is a fanfic writers.

Suppose the original writer never intended the sequel. He established his world, did everything, and was done with it until he changed his mind. So now, according to you, the original piece was a piece of content is fundamentally different from works that derive from it.

However, a sequel is a different story. Now, the sequel is deriving from the original. And so is the fanfic sequel the other writer is writing. So who is putting in more work now? Since they are both creating another work from a different work.

By your reasoning, a sequel should be equally difficult for both the original and fanfic writer, since they are now working off an established franchise.

Well, yeah, they are difficult in real life, and crappy many times, precisely because of that. But the original piece still stands as the original author's own work and canon that others must respect.

If it turns out to be crap, then nobody will give a damn anyway and will enjoy fan fiction more. So?

But I respect your views, and you have every right also to enjoy whatever you want anyway. Nobody is arguing you can't.
 
It's not that I don't agree with you, on the merits of taking down the notion of cannon or that a fictional world should follow a good story and not copyright or the rights of authors.

But look: If it ever comes to be that a franchise sucks so much that fan fiction is better, then by the time that happens, nobody will probably give a damn about said franchise anyway, or like Star Wars, it will survive with nostalgia and the (newly rekindled) hope of a better future for the fictional universe from whoever society agrees to be the caretaker of the franchise.

The problem with crowdsourcing cannon or a story, is the same as many other experiments with communal work: when nobody is the sole owner, then everybody is, but then egos get naturally involved, then others don't give a shit, and the whole thing falls apart.

There's very little Tolkien fan fiction or fan art compared to modern sagas that still have their authors or creators alive because nobody is going to care for newly created content that wants to add to the story. JRR is dead, and everybody agrees that we will never really know if Tom Bombadil is Eru or not, and other unresolved mysteries, and so the fan engagement isn't as big as modern fictions. The LOTR films are considered to have created their own canon, so it isn't really a case of the original canon being taken up by fans.

We all agree that everybody has a right to their own little universe, and a story... You, as a consumer of fictional stories, may find it difficult to understand, but I can empathize with people who though of it first.

This whole discussion is turning into the 2012 U.S. election, with accusation between those that "produce" and those that "take."

A franchise doesn't need to suck in order for you to find better than the original fanfiction out there, it just needs to be popular enough to ensnare enough people that a better than original author is all but inevitable. The only ones who this might not apply to are tolkien who are godlike status in their consistancy to internal world building...but even then it is possible.

Otherwise, I'm....not really sure what your trying to get at. I'm not saying everyone needs to write their own fanfiction and declare it THE official version. I'm just saying everyone has the right to choose their own story model. You act like there is going to be mass chaos in who gets to make their stories, but...there isn't. Is there mass chaos because no one agrees which pastry breakfast is the best between waffles and pancakes? No people have their preferences and leave it.

There are some avatar fanfics I consider to be part of my personal canon. If you asked me about them, I can tell you, but you don't see me shoving them down other people's throats in order to force them to accept my canon. I'm just advocating for the right to for everyone to choose their canon and I don't see how this some kind of issue that will lead to the any kind of disparage between creators and consumers. There is no way I can profit off my mental representation of a story....Unless I started publishing my own fanfiction as canon to that story. Then it's a different situation altogether, but I never advocated that! I am perfectly okay with people owning their work for legal purposes. I said so before that I am talking about canon only for artistic purposes.

And for the record, I'm also a writer myself, not just a consumer. I understand the notion that you want to 'own' your babies. I empathize with those people since I get that feeling. I just don't think it's true.

Well, yeah, they are difficult in real life, and crappy many times, precisely because of that. But the original piece still stands as the original author's own work and canon that others must respect.

If it turns out to be crap, then nobody will give a damn anyway and will enjoy fan fiction more. So?

But I respect your views, and you have every right also to enjoy whatever you want anyway. Nobody is arguing you can't.

Oh I was just curious to hear what Kinvara has to say to that, given her reasoning to respect original authors is based in original fiction being harder than derivative fiction. You're reply just readdresses that the original work is canon, which is not what I am asking though.

Also, the funny thing is that people are specfically arguing I can't enjoy it the way I want. By definition, this entire debate is about whether I am allowed to recognize as legitimate what I want to recognize as legitimate.
 
A franchise doesn't need to suck in order for you to find better than the original fanfiction out there, it just needs to be popular enough to ensnare enough people that a better than original author is all but inevitable. The only ones who this might not apply to are tolkien who are godlike status in their consistancy to internal world building...but even then it is possible.

Otherwise, I'm....not really sure what your trying to get at. I'm not saying everyone needs to write their own fanfiction and declare it THE official version. I'm just saying everyone has the right to choose their own story model. You act like there is going to be mass chaos in who gets to make their stories, but...there isn't. Is there mass chaos because no one agrees which pastry breakfast is the best between waffles and pancakes? No people have their preferences and leave it.

There are some avatar fanfics I consider to be part of my personal canon. If you asked me about them, I can tell you, but you don't see me shoving them down other people's throats in order to force them to accept my canon. I'm just advocating for the right to for everyone to choose their canon and I don't see how this some kind of issue that will lead to the any kind of disparage between creators and consumers. There is no way I can profit off my mental representation of a story....Unless I started publishing my own fanfiction as canon to that story. Then it's a different situation altogether, but I never advocated that! I am perfectly okay with people owning their work for legal purposes. I said so before that I am talking about canon only for artistic purposes.

And for the record, I'm also a writer myself, not just a consumer. I understand the notion that you want to 'own' your babies. I empathize with those people since I get that feeling. I just don't think it's true.

That pastry analogy doesn't apply, since we're talking about a single story/item. It would indeed be kind of nasty and chaotic for many people to make a single waffle with different recipes. That's more of the analogy I'm trying to get at when it comes to crowdsourcing a single story, or basing an model of producing pop culture and art on it.

But yeah, I have my "headcanon" too, almost every tumblr fan also has some, and many of us here. I listen to the soundtracks and imagine a lot different scenarios to Korra, Star Wars and the other saga adaptations I love. I always prefer a canon I have about the ending to the Potter books and movies, but I love the original work too.

So. what are we arguing about?
 
That pastry analogy doesn't apply, since we're talking about a single story/item. It would indeed be kind of nasty and chaotic for many people to make a single waffle with different recipes. That's more of the analogy I'm trying to get at when it comes to crowdsourcing a single story, or basing an model of producing pop culture and art on it.

But yeah, I have my "headcanon" too, almost every tumblr fan also has some, and many of us here. I listen to the soundtracks and imagine a lot different scenarios to Korra, Star Wars and the other saga adaptations I love. I always prefer a canon I have about the ending to the Potter books and movies, but I love the original work too.

So. what are we arguing about?

But...there ARE many recipes for even the same kind of waffles. Just look it up on the internet. Some will have you use vegatable oil, some not, etc. As you can see, the streets have not run red with blood.

This wouldn't be crowd sourcing exactly. Theroetically, I'd never need to read a single fanfic or whatever. I just need to make up a story in my head. Wouldn't even have to write it down. However, most people wouldn't really care to read or write fanfiction when the original source is what it is and people would rather just leave it at that. Most people would still accept the main source material as the default version of how things happened. All I'm asking for is the availability to reject that version if I see fit.

The problem with the crowd sourcing thing is that your personal representation of canon is not something most people are going to even be aware of, let alone enjoy, for you to profit off of. It's just a matter of "well, I think this is the best use of this IP". No one can possibly profit off that.
 
Much of this is true. I've often commented on the fact is there isn't a lot of academia devoted to updating the meanings of various narrative terms to be consistent with the modern usage. I do not currently have time to go into it in as much detail as I'd like, however.

Still, I've explained my view of canon in detail. I slightly disagree with your assessment of my view, as I need a term for which story model I deem the 'official' one of the various ones I have to choose from. It seems appropriate to me to call that canon. Perhaps we can think of a different term for it and leave the canon to be designated as merely the descriptor of the original authors source work, but headcanon doesn't seem like it, because it implies it is subservient to ordinary canon when instead it is the actual chosen version of what happens.

But yes, I think we've more or less reached an impasse, because the disagreement is centered around the axiomatic notion that original authors have special authority over their work, and I don't see the justification for that when stories are supposed to be designed to be most effective and that notion doesn't serve that purpose.

I think the term you are looking for is "fanon" - a term designating interpretations of canon that aren't official but have been widely accepted by fans. That or the more informal "head canon" which is more of a personal idea of certain unspecified canon elements.

I do some research in this area, actually. It depends on the field, but a lot of academics these days think of an "author" as a concept that can include a lot of people, including fans. The part that academics are interested in are where the authority to determine what is and isn't canon and how the product is produced comes from.

I'm inclined to agree more with Joeytj in that Bryke and co. are the ones who have the most authority over the show. So they get to determine what's "canon." But in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter on the personal level and you're free to interpret the canon as you want to. It's been interesting following this discussion, though. Really makes me think back to some of the stuff I've been reading lately.
 
I think the term you are looking for is "fanon" - a term designating interpretations of canon that aren't official but have been widely accepted by fans. That or the more informal "head canon" which is more of a personal idea of certain unspecified canon elements.

I do some research in this area, actually. It depends on the field, but a lot of academics these days think of an "author" as a concept that can include a lot of people, including fans. The part that academics are interested in are where the authority to determine what is and isn't canon and how the product is produced comes from.

Fanon....that could actually work...kinda. Except that it would have to be accepted by the majority of the fandom. I don't really care about that, I just want my own personal version to not be considered illegitimate. The rest of the fandom can do what they want.

My objective here has just been to establish the legitimacy of personal canon. People can call Bryke's stuff canon if they just mean it to mean that they are the ones who decide what goes on the actual show. It's just a descriptor term in that case, specifying which story model they are talking about, not adding value to the work merely based on its origin. But people instinctively give greater value weight to canon than anything fan created, which shouldn't be the case if the fan created stuff is better.

I'm inclined to agree more with Joeytj in that Bryke and co. are the ones who have the most authority over the show. So they get to determine what's "canon." But in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter on the personal level and you're free to interpret the canon as you want to. It's been interesting following this discussion, though. Really makes me think back to some of the stuff I've been reading lately.

Interesting discussion is all I ever aim for. Glad I accomplished that for somebody atleast. Sorry if that bothers you A-v-b :p
 
Fanon....that could actually work...kinda. Except that it would have to be accepted by the majority of the fandom. I don't really care about that, I just want my own personal version to not be considered illegitimate. The rest of the fandom can do what they want.

My objective here has just been to establish the legitimacy of personal canon. People can call Bryke's stuff canon if they just mean it to mean that they are the ones who decide what goes on the actual show. It's just a descriptor term in that case, specifying which story model they are talking about, not adding value to the work merely based on its origin. But people instinctively give greater value weight to canon than anything fan created, which shouldn't be the case if the fan created stuff is better.

But "better" in this case is purely subjective. What some people might consider to be better than canon, others see as a bastardization of it.

I can't remember if it was you or someone else who was saying earlier that LoK damages the entire AtLA universe for them. I can sympathize with that, as I've dealt with that feeling with another thing I follow (a particular game). I've definitely read fanfic and interpretations I consider better than what was officially done with the canon, but I know that in discussions with others, I'm not going to get very far if I just refer to my own "fanon" as though it were canon. The canon is what everyone starts from, and I think that gives it the most authority. The great thing about being a fan is that you can push back against that. Not everyone will agree with you, of course, but that doesn't mean it doesn't count.
 
But "better" in this case is purely subjective. What some people might consider to be better than canon, others see as a bastardization of it.

I can't remember if it was you or someone else who was saying earlier that LoK damages the entire AtLA universe for them. I can sympathize with that, as I've dealt with that feeling with another thing I follow (a particular game). I've definitely read fanfic and interpretations I consider better than what was officially done with the canon, but I know that in discussions with others, I'm not going to get very far if I just refer to my own "fanon" as though it were canon. The canon is what everyone starts from, and I think that gives it the most authority. The great thing about being a fan is that you can push back against that. Not everyone will agree with you, of course, but that doesn't mean it doesn't count.

I don't deny it's subjectivity. That's why it's personal canon, not public canon made by fans.

And yeah, I don't deny personal canon is limited to you unless your in a community who also read the same things and accepted them as your personal canon. I acknowledge the limits a while ago. I would still prefer to have it though. It just wouldn't be communicable because, like you said, the source material is where everyone starts from.

And I'm gonna guess....mass effect?

Veelk v. the world. Again.

You say that like it's a bad thing.
 
I don't deny it's subjectivity. That's why it's personal canon, not public canon made by fans.

And yeah, I don't deny personal canon is limited to you unless your in a community who also read the same things and accepted them as your personal canon. I acknowledge the limits a while ago. I would still prefer to have it though. It just wouldn't be communicable because, like you said, the source material is where everyone starts from.

And I'm gonna guess....mass effect?

The game is Tales of Xillia 2, actually. I've never played Mass Effect. And with that game, I have a group of like-minded friends who feel similarly to me regarding the game and we make fun of it all the time. So you can definitely find a group/community/whatever who share your views.
 
But "better" in this case is purely subjective. What some people might consider to be better than canon, others see as a bastardization of it.

I can't remember if it was you or someone else who was saying earlier that LoK damages the entire AtLA universe for them. I can sympathize with that, as I've dealt with that feeling with another thing I follow (a particular game). I've definitely read fanfic and interpretations I consider better than what was officially done with the canon, but I know that in discussions with others, I'm not going to get very far if I just refer to my own "fanon" as though it were canon. The canon is what everyone starts from, and I think that gives it the most authority. The great thing about being a fan is that you can push back against that. Not everyone will agree with you, of course, but that doesn't mean it doesn't count.

Yeah, it happens.

On LoK, I agree on almost all points written on here about its flaws, although I enjoy LoK for other reasons also, not least the technical aspects, the time I enjoy with the fandom, what it tries to do (whether successful or not), the world, etc. There's a bunch of things I get out of watching a fiction saga like this.
 
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