backflip10019
Member
Yeah, I liked where Sarah netted out. If I was in the juror's shoes, having heard all of this evidence, I would have a hard time convicting Adnan, too.
Serial: Season 01 Discussion - This American Life meets True Detective
- Thread starter Malyse
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rottingcore
Banned
I agree with Sarah's final statement that
.
That said, i cringed when Sarah said
he might be guilty but there wasn't enough evidence to convict
That said, i cringed when Sarah said
that she refused to take the neutral party, and then immediately said two sentences later that she wasn't entirely convinced that he did or did not do it. THAT IS THE NEUTRAL PARTY.
Glass Shark
Banned
The final episode was maddening, bordering on self-parody.
Are we really still talking about payphones and cell tower pings?
Are we really still talking about payphones and cell tower pings?
RepairmanJack
Member
I don't know, I wouldn't really say she stayed neutral. She could have just ended with saying she doesn't know, it's up in the air. But she pretty blatantly said she's left thinking he did it but she doesn't want to believe he did it. Even if he did there wasn't enough to convict him. That doesn't really sound neutral at all. It's just a complicated stance to have being that close to it all. I don't think there was any way for her to say he did it or not without there being some kind of caveat.
I feel good about the ending. There was new info added this episode was enough to close it out I think. Obviously given the time frame the ending couldn't be Adnan walking out of jail or getting confirmation that he is staying there indefinitely.
I definitely had a "THEN WHO WAS PHONE?" moment in the middle there lol.
I definitely had a "THEN WHO WAS PHONE?" moment in the middle there lol.
What else are they supposed to talk about? The episode is called "What we know", so they reviewed everything one last time. Did you expect Adnan to just finally confess or something?
Glass Shark
Banned
RepairmanJack
Member
Did you ever expect it to? If it did it was pretty obvious it would have taken a long time and would not happen on the podcast anyways.
Not to mention for a casual listener it was nice to have the refresher. So much churn happened with the evidence in this series as it progressed unless I wrote it out I wouldn't be able to keep it straight.
A solid end to a solid season. Looking forward to what else they produce; before this series I definitely would have doubted such a case could provide enough meat for this long introspection.
rottingcore
Banned
RepairmanJack
Member
It was a huge stretch, but it made me think there must be some lawyer type shit that made that a big deal. Maybe it just gives a big enough chance for the courts to take a second look at the case? Their ultimate goal is to show Adnan possibly didn't do it, not to find the actual killer per se.
That's at least what I took from the "Big picture" part.
Well both the serial killer idea and the "Adnan is a sociopath/psychopath" theory seem like people applying Hollywood plots to real life. There aren't charming psychopaths in every high school and serial killers are rare.
I think they both speak to the heart of this case, though, which is the "who the f*** did it?" exclamation. If Jay didn't do it, and Adnan didn't do it, then a serial killer or random killing is about the only "reasonable" option you have left.
I thought they ended it pretty much as well as it could be. I also agree that there was reasonable doubt in the case as it was presented so Adnan should have been acquitted.
If I was on the serial team I would be nervous as hell trying to follow this up. I hope it isnt another crime story though.
If I was on the serial team I would be nervous as hell trying to follow this up. I hope it isnt another crime story though.
But it seems like finding the guy who did do it makes life easier all around to acquit Adnan. At least based on what we have heard from the lawyers working now to get his ruling thrown out sound like anything short of having another guy to lay the blame on means the only hope Adnan has is an appeal for parole based on the Asia letter and possibly the wonky cell records used.
Jugendstil
Member
I thought the conclusion was about as good as we could expect. Did anyone else think it sounded like Adnan was getting choked up when he explained why he gave the go ahead for the appeal to test the DNA evidence? That was pretty powerful.
RepairmanJack
Member
Yeah, it makes it easier, but I think from what I've seen they're just trying anything to even get a chance to build a case for it. I think I saw that there was two other times that he was turned down to look at the case again? Maybe I'm remembering that wrong, it's been a while since I've been that in depth in all the stuff with the podcast. I think they've said before the DNA had never been tested as it was and this would give them at least a big enough reason for the case to be looked at again and for the DNA to finally be tested. If it shows anything at all I think it still gives them the chance.
I agree with the majority sentiment here: finale was about what I expected it, but it was a good way to wrap everything up, present some new info (wasn't the serial killer theory proposed by a bunch of redditors?), and basically conclude with well, we don't really know who did it for sure, but we also definitely don't know beyond a reasonable doubt that it was Adnan.
Good show. Hope something concrete comes out of the DNA testing.
If by going somewhere you mean Adnan is cleared or Adnan confessed or the real killer is found, well then yeah, no shit. Adnan is still in jail. Unless the season was just going to run on indefinitely until something in the case changed, then obviously it was never going to "go anywhere."
The point of the show isn't as much a murder mystery as it is a look at how shitty the criminal justice system often is -- that a 17-year-old boy was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison, where he's been for 15 years now, despite basically no real evidence!
Good show. Hope something concrete comes out of the DNA testing.
If by going somewhere you mean Adnan is cleared or Adnan confessed or the real killer is found, well then yeah, no shit. Adnan is still in jail. Unless the season was just going to run on indefinitely until something in the case changed, then obviously it was never going to "go anywhere."
The point of the show isn't as much a murder mystery as it is a look at how shitty the criminal justice system often is -- that a 17-year-old boy was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison, where he's been for 15 years now, despite basically no real evidence!
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
I'm surprised that Roy Davis was never mentioned on the show as it seems a plausible enough idea, and even more surprised that when they did bring up the idea of a serial killer it was a different man entirely. And no mention of the charge on her credit card.
Anyway the value of the serial killer angle they presented is that it's new information that might get a court to allow them to reevaluate the case.
Overall I think it's been made abundantly clear there's no way this case was proven beyond a reasonable doubt. He may have done it but he probably shouldn't be in prison right now.
Anyway the value of the serial killer angle they presented is that it's new information that might get a court to allow them to reevaluate the case.
Overall I think it's been made abundantly clear there's no way this case was proven beyond a reasonable doubt. He may have done it but he probably shouldn't be in prison right now.
That said, what are the odds the guy is released right at that time and kills another Korean woman? The DNA will probably come back negative for this guy, but it's still another crazy coincedence in this case.
If by a miracle it comes back positive...holy shit what is wrong with Jay?
Glass Shark
Banned
I totally get that. I never expected this to be some neat little package tied up in a bow with a secret reveal at the end that shows Adnan is guilty or innocent. But I think the show had the opportunity to explore more ideas and topics than it did. I feel like it dove really deep into things that didn't deserve the time and glossed over aspects of the story that would have been more interesting.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
Yes but to clarify, on this episode they brought up a different guy entirely. The one speculated about on reddit was Roy Davis, Jr., who was convicted of strangling another Woodlawn student like a year before.
I think the Serial Killer thing is a means to an end. It could be true but is very unlikely from what the podcast has investigated but it may be enough to convince a court to mandate DNA testing and re-examining of evidence which could lead to other suspects.
The big picture is getting evidence into court.
Jay was (implicitly) threatened by police. If he hadn't done what the prosecutors wanted, he wouldn't have gotten a nice plea bargain. If he hadn't signed the plea bargain, there is a decent chance be in jail, either with or without Adnan. He received no prison time for his roll (Accessory after the fact), and no time for drug charges (he was a drug dealer). He avoided prison time by going along with the authorities.
Plea bargains, criminal informants, and jailhouse snitches are coerced bullshit, and all known to be some of the leading causes of wrongful convictions.
RepairmanJack
Member
Sarah does kind of bring up a good point in the final episode though. Why would Adnan bring so much attention to this story if he was innocent? Like it's been said, Sarah is not that lucky to get the crazy psychopath that wants the credit and attention. And alternately why did Jay and Jen want nothing to do with the podcast? You'd rather the podcast speculate on its own about your involvement and let other people give their testament to your thinking at the time?
The states whole case is based on two things, Jay's evidence and the cell records. They supposedly corroborated each other and that is why Adnan was found guilty. Poking holes in both those things are vital to the case.
There really are no other topics.
On the other ideas that are touched on. Most people are very negative on the idea of a serial killer given Jay's testimony of being with Adnan, seeing the body in the trunk and burying Hae. It is almost inconceivable that Jay isn't involved.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Right. The whole idea is to test DNA. Not necessarily prove that a serial killer did it. Like you said a means to an end. It's possible.
Ask yourself what does Adnan have to lose by participating if he is guilty? His circumstances would be exactly the same except he may be able to get of jail if the podcast people can prove legal flaws within the states case that even though they may not exonerate him they bring reasonable doubt onto the evidence that did convict him.
If he's guilty, he alienates his entire family and community that supported him during the trial and continue to support him (people who offered to put their homes on the line to help pay for his defense). Sarah mentioned earlier that the phones aren't usually busy since most are in for life and don't have many outside connections anymore. If Serial proved his guilt, it would essentially destroy his identity to everyone he knows.
Guess you could argue that it's a calculated risk, but he never seemed to be insincere about his family (unless he is a psychopath I guess)
RepairmanJack
Member
Yeah, but that's bringing a lot of shit on everyone involved that he seemingly cares so much for in the first place. So far that some think it's the reason for the murder itself. They just seem like everything would contradict too much to make it believeable for me.
Seems possible. But who was he afraid of in the video store? He hadn't talked to the cops yet. How did he know where the car was? Arggghh!
CambriaRising
Member
Just listened to the first episode. I'm hooked.
But his friend's recollection of that story doesn't match either of Jay's version of the events, (recording vs. trial, respectively), so it is hard to make any sense of that.
Well if Adnan killed her, but not in the way the state said he did, he might hope that the show would prove it was impossible and thus help get him released. For instance, he seemed pretty certain about not being able to get to Bestbuy in time for the call, but that could just as easily be because he knew that's not how it happened.
Adnan had nothing to lose by talking to SK, Jay and Jen had everything to lose.
RepairmanJack
Member
Only his entire support system in his community and family. The theories can't say that he committed the murder out of pride or shame but then he invites more shame and pride to lose by talking. They just contradict.
bluepolicebox
Member
What a scary, fascinating mess. I would vote to acquit without question due to lack of evidence but I can't say for sure hoqI lean on Adnan's guilt or innocence. The last episode did more to plant seeds of doubt in his innocence more than any others but there still isn't nearly enough there to allow me to make a decision with any confidence. He certainly shouldn't be in prison right now though.
Still, what a fantastic format this show was. I'm looking forward to what they tackle next season and what I can find for other must-listen podcasts.
Still, what a fantastic format this show was. I'm looking forward to what they tackle next season and what I can find for other must-listen podcasts.
BertramCooper
Banned
I'm pretty sure she said she wasn't sure if he did it or not, but she said that if she were a juror, she wouldn't have voted to convict him based on the currently known evidence.
Err... I thought she said she thought he didn't do it, just that she couldn't be sure.
killertofu
Member
I can't believe how much hype this podcast got.
I don't think it should've been 12 episodes. I don't think she should've done it on the fly, there wasn't enough gas to get here there.
I think the show's popularity skewed some of the callers of this episode's memory to be honest. The 'journalism' was altering the memory.
SK could've used this story to tell a bigger picture about crime/criminal justice in America, but in my opinion, she just kept going through the same plodding plot points, the same wild goose chase for 12 hours.
Very disappointing.
I don't think it should've been 12 episodes. I don't think she should've done it on the fly, there wasn't enough gas to get here there.
I think the show's popularity skewed some of the callers of this episode's memory to be honest. The 'journalism' was altering the memory.
SK could've used this story to tell a bigger picture about crime/criminal justice in America, but in my opinion, she just kept going through the same plodding plot points, the same wild goose chase for 12 hours.
Very disappointing.
daemissary
Member
Good finale, the only thing I wish that Sarah would've asked Adnan is, presuming Adnan is innocent, then why does he think Jay is lying about him?
I think Adnan is probably guilty but definitely should not have been convicted. Especially considering how unreliable cell phone tower pings are and the new info about the Nisha call. The entire timeline is jacked...the only concrete evidence at this point is that Jay knew where the car was.
I think Adnan is probably guilty but definitely should not have been convicted. Especially considering how unreliable cell phone tower pings are and the new info about the Nisha call. The entire timeline is jacked...the only concrete evidence at this point is that Jay knew where the car was.
TarpitCarnivore
Member
I felt the same way. Episodes 3 - 6/7 were probably the best ones as it's when they really began to deep dive into the case and the evidence presented. Each episode after that you can feel it being stretched out to reach 12 episodes.
While I love the shorter format to the episodes I wonder if it would have been better served in a six episode 90 minute long approach.
Not sure why people are coming in saying why doesn't Adan just tell all when we had an entire letter why he could never do so. The fact that he's locked away doesn't mean he has nothing to lose anymore at all.
Also this ended fine for me. I think it went too long, but maybe that's a lesson learned from what was basically a running experiment anyway. I do think the sentiment of man this dude had some awful, awful luck if he isn't guilty is true, but at the same time that requires you completely buy into Jay's story. Which I don't.
Fun stuff, will wait to see what S2 brings.
Also this ended fine for me. I think it went too long, but maybe that's a lesson learned from what was basically a running experiment anyway. I do think the sentiment of man this dude had some awful, awful luck if he isn't guilty is true, but at the same time that requires you completely buy into Jay's story. Which I don't.
Fun stuff, will wait to see what S2 brings.
BertramCooper
Banned
Next season better not be about another murder.
I'm hoping for something about white-collar crime in the financial sector. It probably won't ignite the masses the way that this season has, but I think it's something that would be well served by this format.
I'm hoping for something about white-collar crime in the financial sector. It probably won't ignite the masses the way that this season has, but I think it's something that would be well served by this format.
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