Well, I mean, K-on was directed by a woman, adapted by a female screenwriter, had character designs by a female character designer, had a lot of women working on the storyboarding, animation, etc. So good news, some studios are doing exactly what you're asking for.
I've grown confused and frustrated with the "moe culture", and I need to vent.
- Thread starter Watch Da Birdie
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Well, I mean, K-on was directed by a woman, adapted by a female screenwriter, had character designs by a female character designer, had a lot of women working on the storyboarding, animation, etc. So good news, some studios are doing exactly what you're asking for.
It's because they're embarrassed by them. Whether or not they're closet perverts is a different matter entirely imo, and this is not an indication. Taking the "thou doth protest too much, therefore you are suspiciously guilty" is a generalizing way to dole out judgement. But I agree with your first point. You're better off admitting you like cute stuff than trying to cover it up.
That's definitely a reason why they are popular. "Cute girls doing cute things" shows portray completely fictional, ideal human beings that give a glimpse into a world that males are usually not a part of; a social circle that is alien to them. A number of male friends I know have a "the grass is greener" view of the opposite sex, and this kinda shows a perfect universe where girls get along each other perfectly with cake and flowers. And while they act "juvenile", which I assume is supposed show how unaffected they are by any real-world issues or responsibilities, they are often portrayed to have extremely high emotional intelligence, easily understanding everyone's issues and needs, something most relationships often lack. It's escapism, pure and simple.
MHWilliams
Member
Hana Yori Dango, man. The 2005 version. One of the many live-action dramas made off that property. For shame.
(That's from Tomorrow Cantabile, a K-drama)
Ohhh, Boys over Flowers. That's on the list too, haha. Haven't watched too many HS-set dramas. When I googled your image it took me to Priceless for some reason.
Astral/H3X
Member
Hana Yori Dango, man. The 2005 version. One of the many live-action dramas made off that property. For shame.
(That's from Tomorrow Cantabile, a K-drama)
I LOVED THAT SHOW. Though I can't remember much of it anymore. Profound sadness.
Now I need to know. It doesn't bother me to be honest. To me in the end it's just art. If I don't like it I don't look at it. If enough people are disgusted by it then it'll go away in time. But I mean, it's just human nature to draw this stuff. There's always going to be a lot of gray area to interpret it.
Astral/H3X
Member
Basically the word "otaku" just means geek of some kind. It tends to have a built in implication towards anime geeks, at least in the west, but you can be an "anything" otaku.
And apparently there is a company that decided to take boat geeks, and anime geeks, and combine their powers to create an unholy merchandising force.
Note: I use the term geek inoffensively.
CyberpunkGod
Member
MHWilliams
Member
"Otaku" is just a hard hardcore fan. I assume he's talking about something like Otomedius, which takes Konami's space shooters and adds girls. See also: Gundam Girls.
You can google it yourself. Not my cup of tea, but I know many people who like that kind of thing.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I think people's views of older anime is of course tainted by nostalgia to some extent, but I think the issue is---more problematic now?
Like it used to be that not every anime was that great, but at its worst, it was just badly written, badly drawn, and childish. The shame of liking anime was limited to simply enjoying crappy shows, now it's like, it's not even about quality anymore, it's about worrying about what anime will make you look like a creep.
I know other fans don't necessarily affect me, but I do think it can put me off wanting to get into "fandoms" of a lot of these shows when there's a big subculture that seem to watch for the sexual aspects. Like I enjoy the Pokemon anime as a safe-show I like to watch passively for nostalgia sake, but now it's gotten to the point where I see some of the newer female character designs, and they've begun to move towards a more, well, design that seems popular among those types of fans, and it makes me wonder where the line is drawn between blaming the creators and blaming the consumers when characters are sexualized. And like I watched Inazuma Eleven recently, and that show apparently has a large subsection who enjoy it for its "shota" elements or whatever, and that really bugs me because I don't even know where the line is anymore. It's like I just can't find anime to watch anymore because I always worry what the intent behind the show is, what the fans are like, what kind of people are associated with it, etc. It's hard to enjoy anime anymore because I can't tell what is just mindless fun, and what is creepy pandering to the otaku.
Like it used to be that not every anime was that great, but at its worst, it was just badly written, badly drawn, and childish. The shame of liking anime was limited to simply enjoying crappy shows, now it's like, it's not even about quality anymore, it's about worrying about what anime will make you look like a creep.
I know other fans don't necessarily affect me, but I do think it can put me off wanting to get into "fandoms" of a lot of these shows when there's a big subculture that seem to watch for the sexual aspects. Like I enjoy the Pokemon anime as a safe-show I like to watch passively for nostalgia sake, but now it's gotten to the point where I see some of the newer female character designs, and they've begun to move towards a more, well, design that seems popular among those types of fans, and it makes me wonder where the line is drawn between blaming the creators and blaming the consumers when characters are sexualized. And like I watched Inazuma Eleven recently, and that show apparently has a large subsection who enjoy it for its "shota" elements or whatever, and that really bugs me because I don't even know where the line is anymore. It's like I just can't find anime to watch anymore because I always worry what the intent behind the show is, what the fans are like, what kind of people are associated with it, etc. It's hard to enjoy anime anymore because I can't tell what is just mindless fun, and what is creepy pandering to the otaku.
Astral/H3X
Member
Essentially, the post was me going on about how I totally get why everyone draws attractive characters in every show (even if sometimes it's less attractive, and more thong), but seriously wish they would stop shoehorning in little teeny tiny girls who look ten but say they are 20 into every show at the detriment to anyone who finds them horrifically annoying and disturbing.
I'm only being kind of serious. I remember loving it when I saw it a few years ago (I think I was a high school freshman or sophomore at the time) but my opinion on it soured a bit when I started picking up on the pandering and creepy fanbase. I don't know how I'd feel about it now but I think viewing it in a vacuum its innocent enough and funny when it wants to be.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Right, the whole "everything is a young girl" thing also is weird to me. Anthropomorphizing things? Sure that's a natural human instinct. All of the anthropomorphizations being cute young girls often in schoolgirl or "frilly" outfits? That seems more like a fetish
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Kantai Collection is a series about anthropomorphic battleships, that are little girls. One of the little girls wears a low-cut skirt with her thong showing, and this isn't an obscure thing either, this is a rather popular series, that's apparently one of the well-known characters, and I found out this character existed by looking on Wikipedia. So this isn't delving into the depths to find this stuff, it's right in the open, and no one seems to really be bothered by this design beyond "lol it's a meme because it's lewd!"
Anyway, ship otaku are nothing scandalous---that's people who have a strong interest in battleships, like a naval history buff, and according to a fan of Kantai Collection I talked to, that's why the series is so popular because it features historical facts about battleships (that are also turned into little girls, well, gigantic battleship-sized little girls), but it just illustrates my point how these designs are just glossed over and oddly ignored. If you're really a "ship otaku", why would you want a series where the things you enjoy are turned into humans? There are plenty of outlets for you to get your fix on battleships, so why choose the one where they're moe-caricatures? It just seems to me it's just another example of people liking this stuff FOR the designs, and trying to pretend it's just an unfortunate accident that these characters are designed like thi. There's never a moment of introspection where they're like "you know, why do they have to be all little girls", it's just "well, they may be little girls, but the game is really fun". It's just intellectual dishonesty.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
I disagree with the majority of this thread. Shit's cute. It's another easy case of don't like it don't watch it, since there's plenty of anime that isn't moe. The medium has been getting further and further away from that aesthetic for years to the point where it's actually hard to find shows that fully fit that bill anymore.
BigWeather
Member
No Doy.
(I had never heard of "moe" before and came in expecting "moe.")
(I had never heard of "moe" before and came in expecting "moe.")
Reading that block of text, it's increasingly starting to sound like paranoia or something. At some point it loses all meaning. Look at Misty's design in the first few seasons of Pokemon. I just accept that designs for anything commercial are made so that they are attractive. It's doesn't have to mean sexually, but it's pointless to scrutinize every design to see if they are Asexual or within your own boundaries or fears of what an artist's intent is.
uncredited male
Member
This thread is depressing me. I need to find some Slayers gifs.
MHWilliams
Member
I mean, don't try to oversell it. Looking over the next season chart reveals a number of show that would probably fit the OP's bill, including Kantai Collection.
But yeah, I just don't watch many show of that type. Occasionally they reach me.
Why are you in such a knot over this? Have you seen the porn of Kantai Collection? It's far more expansive (and creative) than anything that takes place in the canon world. Nobody is dancing around the issue that sexualized character designs are made for the gratification of those who enjoy them. The sheer amount of this content testifies to this. It's also entirely possible that plenty of people are just passive to this kind of thing. It's easy enough for some to ignore pervasive attributes if the underlying content is engaging.
SteveWinwood
Member
its not like moe liked you anyway op b-baka
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Soo...it's basically the famel version of Axis Powers Hetalia?
As much as I hate Misty because every Misty fan I've run into literally seem incapable of having a normal discussion without bringing her up, I'll admit that her design seemed to be the most "grounded" compared to her successors, who seem to attract more creepy fans due to their designs, rather than Misty who just attracts creepy fans who seem incapable of getting over a television show replacing a character.
Part of it is paranoia on my part, I guess, but I think I'm a bit justified in that a medium I used to fairly enjoy has become hard to like without feeling like I'm watching stuff made to appeal to those attracted to underage characters.
I think the fact you're bringing this up is weird in itself, especially the "creative" bit.
That is hilarious.
I'm not into any moeish things. If I ever watch anime it's usually the violent kind... Berserk, GiTS, Ninja Scroll. Same thing with manga. And I prefer western games over stuff from Japan. But I'm frustrated with close minded judgmental people like you who feel like the world has to think and enjoy the things from your prerspective. That attitude just pisses me off.
If people like childish shit. As long as they're not harming children. Let them enjoy it. If people like dressing up as furry animals. As long as they're not harming animals. Let them enjoy it. Just mind your goddamn business. You don't need to understand it.
Yeah I'm not a fan. I haven't watched really any of this stuff, honestly, but I see enough creepy looking gifs and pics posted on gaf to know that it's just not for me.
The best way I can put it is: From the bits and pieces that I have seen, I can tell you that if I WAS into this stuff, and I was watching it when my wife came home early from work or something, I would feel like it would be something that I would have to explain. She wouldn't bat an eyelash if she caught me jackin' it to porn, but if I was watching this on the couch with a bowl of popcorn, I think she'd be weirded out.
The best way I can put it is: From the bits and pieces that I have seen, I can tell you that if I WAS into this stuff, and I was watching it when my wife came home early from work or something, I would feel like it would be something that I would have to explain. She wouldn't bat an eyelash if she caught me jackin' it to porn, but if I was watching this on the couch with a bowl of popcorn, I think she'd be weirded out.
Came to basically post this.
Actually, some degree of "moe" has always been present in anime and maybe even Japanese media in general. It seems to have always placed a heavy emphasis on cuteness. The latest trend has just sort of taken it into overdrive. The difference however is that Japan's current economy has given the Otakus more purchasing power than almost anyone in the country. This stuff is not considered normal over there, but producers are forced to pander to the minority that obsesses over it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
For all that people complain about it in anime I will agree that there's still a wealth of anime content that isn't this style (now finding anime without any fanservice, that's much tougher)
But man, the proportions of Japanese games, JRPGs and strategy games especially, are really out of whack these days. It seems like moe well and fully dominates those areas, especially on handhelds these days. That's something I will complain about
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I guess I can't really sympathize here as I don't think I've ever tried to connect with the broader "anime community". As far as I can see fanbases are composed of numerous groups that fall under different umbrellas (some groups fall into the same or share categories with others). Enjoying something with others is a matter of finding a group that matches your particular tastes and etiquette. You could liken it to finding a D&D group that synergizes well if that makes it clearer.
I think within this "broader community" there are groups that consume the same content but express their experiences in different ways (I think this is present in all fanbases). You can definitely find groups who talk about things in the way that you've mentioned and others who do not. So I have to wonder (if I recall correctly the "otaku" and/or ones who act in a manner that you find unsettling are apparently few in number compared to the viewership at large) how much of the brush that fans are being painted with is due to the actions and/or views of those that ultimately form a minority group in the total fan population (if that's the case).
This post took me a long time to write so if it makes no sense I apologize.
FeenixRising
Banned
Hey! I changed for BCTs greater good!!!
Astral/H3X
Member
I think it's weird that you bring this up, because of an opinion shared by me and my friend, neither of whom are very comfortable with the sexualized "loli" or "moe" trends.
To us, the outfits worn by the female player characters in the games are almost universally more conservative and less sexually charged than a lot of other designs in other media, and actually end up being really attractive character designs -- from a fashion standpoint. We both agree that GameFreak is really good at making non-sexualized, attractive clothing designs, and really wish that they'd throw some adults in those clothes, or at least apply the same finesse to some adult characters. But at the same time, we really don't find their clothing to be creepy, by being worn by the younger characters that do.
Shirona is hot though.
I don't know if it's easy to get what I'm saying, but basically by making non-objectifying clothing designs, they've actually made them really attractive and nice looking, but then they are being worn by 14 year olds. :/ (Although Serena is 18 I think?)
Astral/H3X
Member
While I get what you are saying, there's a LOT of instances where that "petite" goes a bit too far. I'm not familiar enough with the damn boat things to know if the character you are talking about goes into that territory though.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Didn't read the OP completely, but I really despise the moe style that has become so prominent these days. It pretty much ruined a lot of Japanese games for me. The style really seemed to start dominating in the late 2000s and it's just everywhere now.
I can't relate to it at all, and the "waifu" and "imouto" fetish stuff, even when used in jest, is just really kind of gross to me.
Yeah, I actually really regret being such a dick in that thread. I mean, the guy was full of shit and it set off multiple alarms with me, but I didn't need to go that far.
I can't relate to it at all, and the "waifu" and "imouto" fetish stuff, even when used in jest, is just really kind of gross to me.
Yeah, I actually really regret being such a dick in that thread. I mean, the guy was full of shit and it set off multiple alarms with me, but I didn't need to go that far.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
In the grand scale of things, yeah, I think Pokemon is pretty conservative, but some of the outfits for the female characters recently are a bit odd, or at least seem to draw attention more so by weird fans. I don't remeber this as much for Misty.
I find the new Roxanne design to be one of the more out-of-place ones, as she definately seems to be more evocative now of the "moe" style than before, where she had a more mature, grounded look. She's even got the "class rep" archetype going on.
I find the new Roxanne design to be one of the more out-of-place ones, as she definately seems to be more evocative now of the "moe" style than before, where she had a more mature, grounded look. She's even got the "class rep" archetype going on.
curlyfriski
Banned
Nah. Anime has been considered questionable forever. In the old days it was more ultra violence and misogyny than underage girls.
Astral/H3X
Member
In the grand scale of things, yeah, I think Pokemon is pretty conservative, but some of the outfits for the female characters recently are a bit odd, or at least seem to draw attention more so by weird fans. I don't remeber this as much for Misty.
I find the new Roxanne design to be one of the more out-of-place ones, as she definately seems to be more evocative now of the "moe" style than before, where she had a more mature, grounded look. She's even got the "class rep" archetype going on.
When you compare them side by side like that, I can see where you are coming from, but I feel that case is more just that Pokemon in general is getting more "eye catching" designs. To me, that literally just looks like Roxanne, done in "current" Pokemon style, which looks a lot more like it's just drawing attention in general, than trying to be moe. I can't see moe in there at all, actually. Gotta remember, it's like a 10 year gap in between those two designs.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm not sure if I'd call it moe either, but its definitely more ....archetypical in the current anime context.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Haha, you're joking right? First off, isn't she a ship? She's not really any age, but she certainly can be drawn to invoke a certain age, and that is of a young girl.
This is the character in question for everyone not in the know to judge.
http://imgur.com/olhXDwX
(warning: top of thong showing)
According to...TVTropes (and they really know their shit when it comes to this stuff), this is the front-page character basically used to represent the series.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I don't know, it just stands out for me.
I like most of the other re-designs---May, Flannery, Phoebe, Skyla (I sort of dislike her more passive pose) seem pretty good, but something about Roxanne just bugs me. I think it's the way the legs and skirt sort of seem intended to draw your eyes to them more than before.
Angelus Errare
Banned
The shits are so damn interconnected.
Yeah, like I said, I'm not in the know about this stuff, and yeah...that's an animated 12 yr old in a thong if I ever saw one.
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