Some bad negotiation there.
Sony Pictures mad at Netflixs failure to block overseas VPN users
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Some bad negotiation there.
What's more funny is they signed a contract with Netflix, knowing damn well Netflix wasn't doing anything about the VPNers.
Atraveller
Banned
There's no streaming services in my region, and BDs retail almost always around 30 USD, so yeah.
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
well someone fucked up here and that isnt netflix
GHG
Member
You're not getting it.
I'm part of the 64 million people (UK) they originally got paid for. Netflix are not profiting further from me still accessing the content I'm paying for overseas. If I could no longer access that content Netflix would only lose a subscriber since they never gained an additional one in my scenario.
If for example 5 million people who were Netflix subscribers left the UK to live and work abroad should Sony get paid an additional licensing fee?
Why does it matter if its up front or not?
The license would probably cost significantly more if it covered other markets, hence why Sony "sanctions" Netflix. Netflix does gain from this because they are paying for rights to do one thing and allowing their customers to provide a service that Netflix hasn't paid for.
People pay for piracy all the time, doesn't mean that the companies should just suck it up.
You do know that contracts expire and get renegotiated right?
Even just looking at it domestically it seems a poor way to handle the content. They get a fixed amount no matter how much content is streamed and meanwhile the bottom falls out of the disc market.
Mr. Mister
Member
So what you are saying is that Netflix intentionally negotiated in bad faith, knowing that they were getting the benefit of subscriptions through people with VPNs outside of countries that they licensed the content for?
You nailed it, that is exactly what Sony is saying.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Hmm, is it based on the number of Netflix subscribers or the population of the country?
If it's based on the number of Netflix subscribers, the argument loses quite a bit of ground, because those overseas ARE IN the subscriber count.
I think it's based on current, and likely projected, netflix subscribers; IIRC part of the reason they split streaming and rental was for that reason.
Marty Chinn
Member
They signed because it was worth a lot of money and there was a deadline. It's not something that could have been changed overnight by Netflix even if Netflix wanted to comply. That doesn't mean it's not going to bite Netflix in the ass down the road. Netflix not acting in good faith and being in breach of contract just means Sony is going to compensate when it comes to renegotiating existing contracts and new ones. Netflix is going to have to pay sooner or later or lose the content. So either the consumer pays more or you lose the content. Either way affects Netflix users because Netflix is turning a blind eye for the short term gains.
It's based on the current subscribers in the region and the likely projected growth for that region. When you add in outside of the region, then it screws with the projection.
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think Netflix really cares about the use of VPNs one way or another. Sony is the one who should've foreseen these problems if they're the ones whinning about them later.
GHG
Member
Yep. Funny thing about this is that if there was a drop in population within the UK then Sony would likely ask for less money from Netflix.
This is the reason Sony are not profiting further here. They are looking at it from a per country perspective rather than a per user perspective. They see anybody outside the countries they have given Netflix the licence to distribute content to as "pirates" instead of potential customers.
I don't think they did. I imagine its just an unexpected bonus. It gets them extra income without effort/cost and it creates a pool of customers for when NF does setup officially in a country. Australia being a perfect example where many think there are 200k subscribers now using these methods. They are supposed to launch here this year and the existing subscribers gives them a great starting point.
Marty Chinn
Member
There is because of a number of factors. Remember, content has a tiered structure in distribution. Some of the higher tiers require negotiation in distribution to make the content available. Sony needing those forms of distribution means deals are made which gain exclusive access for second tiers. Now suddenly, content is tied up in deals because of the need for the first tierd access.
Movie theaters are a good example of this. Sony doesn't own all the theaters out there, so they need to distribute to companies who do own theaters. Without movies being distributed to theaters, a lot of revenue is lost. Then there's the TV distribution which is another form of revenue. If they simply went to streaming immediately, so much money would be lost to the movie studio.
Mr. Mister
Member
It's great that you think they don't care but that isn't grounded in any reality that I am seeing. I am sure Sony foresaw this problem and it is why they are implying there is a breach on contract.
As has been said earlier in the thread -- this is much more likely a positioning move for much higher buy out terms during renegotiation. It is also why Netflix is trying to pivot in to more original productions, they don't have to pay buyouts and own rights to worldwide distribution.
I see the business dynamics of this has been explained a couple times to you. If you want to keep ignoring reality and trying to twist things to make whatever point then go ahead.
No they don't, outside of huw much pressure they get from studios. And these emails are obviously written before a contract was signed, not after.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
That's true, if more and more people discover and start using a VPN or similar service to access and subscribe to netflix in the US, it will fuck up projections.
In that respect, the argument still holds some weight.
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
If Sony foresaw this problem and did absolutely nothing to try and prevent it, like, dunno, accepting the contract, they got into this mess themselves. Tough luck.
Marty Chinn
Member
Someone above said 200k users do this in Australia. That's not a drop in the bucket. I'd be curious if that number is accurate, and how they came up with it, but it's not just a few hundred people here and there doing it.
Sony thinks Netflix is in breach of contract. So clearly they think that what they negotiated and signed is not being followed through upon.
I think the issue is that you can subscribe in Mexico and will get access to US content if you use a VPN in Mexico.
Mr. Mister
Member
Well if they do block your VPN tough luck for you, but at least you now understand why.
Also as an FYI - Netflix has over 16 million international subscribers and they are banking on much more growth.
Marty Chinn
Member
Not totally true because people in Australia are doing it and you can't get Netflix in Australia currently. So people are signing up for US accounts overseas. It was mentioned I believe in the article about people using foreign payment to create US accounts.
We might as well close down Play-Asia and their ilk, that shit is now illegal!
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
Great!
I'll be cancelling my Netflix subscription when it happens
See now this is my favorite kind of comeback: the one that explains absolutely nothing about how it got there. Classic George.
Why do you keep saying breach of contract? Since the OP is based on emails in 2013 and before they even signed a contract. We don't know what the terms are.
Then take them to court.
I understand that, but it's also largely about avoiding the inevitable, or really just pretending it can't happen. We all know how this is going to go down eventually; the people are making this abundantly clear by their actions. When you have entertainment conglomerates fighting against their own potential customer base then there's obviously some mismanagement going on, not to mention a loss of potential revenue.
Netflix skips to the next episode after 30 secs, so he's never going to see the end logos. Good try trying to frame him as a pirate though, props for effort.
You know, I haven't used a VPN to access US Netflix yet, I believe my Netflix region is Mexico/LatAm (I'm from Peru) and while the content is good, sometimes I prefer to watch movies in English with English subs instead of Spanish subs just to practice my English, that's something LatAm Netflix barely offers :/ I might access US Netflix one of these days just to see how better it is.
I watched all of Breaking Bad on Netflix too and had no idea Sony was involved.
I watched all of Breaking Bad on Netflix too and had no idea Sony was involved.
I'm not sure how accurate, but its the commonly quoted figure in Australia by various industry folks when discussing Netflix and other streaming services. Which led to one local competitor (with much less more and a tiny catalog compared to US netflix) to call Netflix out.
http://mumbrella.com.au/quickflix-boss-tells-netflix-end-back-door-access-aussies-251572
Of course an interesting wrinkle is that whilst Netflix preapred to launch here, the local arms of the multinationals have tried to strangle netflix by signing exclusive content deals with a bunch of competitors that are also launching this year. So I kind of expect that 200k will stay using the US Netflix once Australian Netflix launches due to lack of content and it dispersed among a bunch of competitors. Assuming they don't come down hard on these people.
Theres that as well as people using things like Japanese/US PSN from other countries to buy games that are cheaper/available.
Marty Chinn
Member
Physical content got paid for from Play-Asia. Streaming digital content did not. It's not the same.
Well we have two scenarios. Either Netflix is in breach of content and Sony is going to compensate later or remove content, or some other means as a result, or Netflix is going to clamp down on VPN users. I highly doubt suddenly Sony just said nevermind, we'll let you do it for free. Plus these were the rights for Breaking Bad in those e-mails. There's a lot more Sony content that was already negotiated that was already available. Unless those contracts are up, then they are still in breach of contract.
I'm saying it's not so trivial. People on this forum often think, hell I want to give them $5, they're leaving money on the table when it's not that simple. Doing things that some people want them to do might make them less money. So it's not money left on the table when people who clearly don't understand things think it is. Companies could give a fuck about everyone wanting to throw a buck or two there way if it means less money. They'd rather refuse your money in order to make more and people don't seem to understand that.
Whether the end user realizes it or not doesn't change if piracy is taking place. If I go to some store in Chinatown that's selling bootleg discs and I don't realize it and spend money on it, it doesn't change the fact that I now have pirated content. In this case, Sony isn't getting paid for their content and someone else is profiting off selling that content that they are not authorized to do. There's a reasonable argument to call it piracy even if the end user doesn't think it is or realize it is.
They will lose a good chunk of subscribers if they do, so very doubtful unless the other companies start putting on the strain.
I'm not so sure. If I buy a DVD from the US, the money goes via US channels right? Doesn't that mean they still miss out on making money off distributing it locally (even though it's not even distributed here at all)? Sounds like Sony are mad they don't make money on a sliding scale based on subscriber numbers but that is true no matter where the subscribers are from?
Though in many cases the Distibutor/Studio got paid less because of regional content deals with local distributors.
They're just going to have to grow out of it. They're now in a different business than what they originally signed up for. Oh well. Shit is happening more simultaneously than they may like, but too fucking bad. Businesses live or die by how they adjust themselves. Admonishing your customers into submission hasn't ever worked out well - people have no problem telling you to fuck off when they feel cheated.
Marty Chinn
Member
Ya, there are definitely nuances about it. Companies also negotiate regional rights and sales are affected if someone imports from another region which negatively impacts the sale of that region. I'm a long time importer and even ran an import business myself so I'm well versed in the nuances of importing. But in the end someone is still at least getting paid for a physical item and that money does get back to the parent company. That's not the case with streaming rights. I think it's apple and oranges to compare physical and digital content when it comes to distribution and how money is made in the comparison people are making here. It's not even close to the same situation.
Sure, but only when it benefits them. You can't expect a business to bend over every time someone waves a dollar at them. It's not worth it to them and people need to understand and realize this. I laugh at every time someone says they want to give HBO $5 so they can stream all their content and that HBO is leaving money on the table otherwise. Businesses aren't in this for charity. They're in it to make money. People thinking money being left on the table quite often means making less money if they did what they wanted.
What the hell are you talking about? That has like zero to do with what I was responding too...
In China, most US TV shows, including Breaking Bad and House of Cards, etc., are free with ads on streaming sites like Sohu, Youku, etc. It is a legal license paid to the U.S. studios for this content. Do you think it is okay to get a China VPN to view these shows? Do you understand why the studios would be mad with the Chinese sites for not doing something about it?
Marty Chinn
Member
Netflix distributing content to people they are not authorized to certainly has an argument to be called piracy. It doesn't matter if the end user is paying for it or think they're getting legal content.
That's great, still has nothing to do with what I was responding too... Do you know I like cake?
Marty Chinn
Member
The only relevant discussion on piracy was Sony's claim that Netflix is doing an act of piracy. I didn't see any reference that the person was accusing or implying he was pirating the content. So the only conclusion I could come with is you were trying to make some sort of reference to Sony's claim of piracy.
I wouldn't call it that. Netflix maybe not following the spirit of their agreement with the studios.
I don't know if I'd call Sony Pictures a pirate either for having unlicensed music in 'The Interview'.
See what you want you my friend, because you obviously already are.
China doesn't respect our copyrights. This isn't anything new. But by making our content available to everyone on the same day, it cuts into their pirating schemes. Otherwise, your giving them leverage.
True. Or the legal costs of such action are more than what is being lost.
Marty Chinn
Member
I think it's a bit of a grey area. I can see the argument for it though. Illegal distribution maybe. Is that still considered piracy? Sony Pictures having unlicensed music is copyright infringement; that would be a pretty clear cut definition of it.
I don't think they want to go down that path and burn that bridge unless they have to.
So you think a movie should be in theaters, on DVD/BluRay and streamed all on the same date? That would be making the content available to everyone on the same day.
Zoe
Member
As mentioned earlier, we don't know what went into the final contract.
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