Riposte
Member
Who decides what has inherent value?
Hatred receives rare "Adults Only" (AO) rating from ESRB for violence and language
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Who decides what has inherent value?
I'd rather be able to create something that is deemed to have little value, than not be able to create it in the first place.
You're comparing a bunch of game devs to ISIL? Holy shit.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
You have to separate the art from the artist and take things on their own merits.
There's people with questionable morals and known crimes in all media, but their art should be judged irrespective of who they are. Someone buying the game isn't necessarily supporting Neo-Nazi ideaology, just as someone buying a Lost Prophets CD isn't supporting peadophiles.
Not getting free publicity off someone's private server doesn't prevent it from being created, tho
I don't agree with all of the rules or the moderation on this site but still.. I ain't paying the bills.
You have played it already then. How long is it?
Brutalitops
Banned
Hitler created some dope paintings, you know.
Did you pay Hitler?
Lalalandia
Member
To be strictly accurate I'm comparing them to ISIL supporters.
The groups in question are notorious for violent assaults of emigrants and other minority groups in Poland. The game explicitly espouses an intolerant credo that aligns quite nicely with what right wing hate groups push.
So yeah I am especially when I keep seeing daft comments that pretend that the creation can be utterly divorces from the creator.
Lol @ the "this game has no sex, so we don't understand why it's AO!" bit in the beginning in the OP. -_-; Yeah, because sex is totally the reason why games should get AO ratings. This stupid idea that sex >>>>> violence in harmfulness is so silly. Even if violence in games doesn't cause violence in people playing those violent games, I'd rather games get higher ratings because of violence than for having some reference to sex.
Yeah this. I remember the failed attempt to boycott Armikrog because Doug TenNapel is a hardline Christian and thus has a strong opinion on gays - just because I disagree with him, though, doesn't mean I think Armikrog is bad. In fact, it looks really, really good and I want to pick it up ASAP.
Alex_Mexico
Member
If discussions about Hatred are not permitted on GAF (a motion I agree and support) why are we on page 5? Just close this thread.
AmaterasuOkami076
Member
I wouldn't mind as much but the game itself just looks bad. It looks like the sort of game someone would play in front of someone else just to give off some perceived bad-ass impression. "Look at this game I'm playing, whoa I'm just so crazy and unpredictable!".
Hotline Miami 2 is said to be one of the most graphically violent games ever made and includes a violent rape scene that got it banned in Australia. What separates that from this if we're talking about "toxic" games? Serious question. Or even Manhunt compared to this game.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
The sheer lack of moral fortitude is astounding.
Indeed.
Brutalitops
Banned
Not for a painting. If he made a good videogame I'd consider it.
I do not think art is objective. I said that because I think too many people have talked about censorship and the right to create something rather than the thing that is created itself. I'm just sick of people hiding behind the argument of free speech when it has no relevance to the topic. There is nothing of value added when you just iterate that the game is "art", as if that excuses it of any critique or outrage. Art can be bad, and it should be critiqued and scrutinized just as everything else. Rather than implying it's mere existence has value, I want these people to say what that value is.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
No. Completely the opposite. Their "art" should be judged in the context of who they are. The beliefs and values of artists directly influence the art they create.
Brutalitops
Banned
Morals are subjective. Furthermore, I reserve my morals for things more significant than videogames.
aspiegamer
Member
inb4 lock because... yeah? There's always some discussion worth having about the industry quirk that is the AO rating and equivalents around the globe but we're not talking about that any more.
No good is coming from the forked topic matter. No one here (that I can tell) is saying the game isn't allowed to exist. No one here (that I can tell) is saying that people shouldn't be able to talk about the game! Just that NeoGAF isn't the place for it, per community discussion, per moderator discretion and the forum TOS. I'm sure there are plenty of subreddits or imageboards that would be more than happy to accommodate people with these concerns.
No good is coming from the forked topic matter. No one here (that I can tell) is saying the game isn't allowed to exist. No one here (that I can tell) is saying that people shouldn't be able to talk about the game! Just that NeoGAF isn't the place for it, per community discussion, per moderator discretion and the forum TOS. I'm sure there are plenty of subreddits or imageboards that would be more than happy to accommodate people with these concerns.
jakonovski
Member
There's a thing in gaming culture, where the most important thing is the narrative. But the idea of human life having inherent worth is not a thing, so all that matters is the excuse the protagonist uses to kill. Gamers internalize this alarmingly eagerly.
The neo-nazi rumour was debunked. The sheer number of people that refused accept whatever goes against what they desperately want to believe is shocking.
That's entirely subjective. If i chose to ignore the stance of the creator i can, and i will because they deserve money for a product they've created that i choose to purchase and enjoy. They're game devs that pose no threat to anyone and they wouldn't be around developing games if they did, i assure you.
Wow, well put!
Ordinarily I'd agree, but in this case the ideology is informing the art so it's harder to separate. If it turned out that Sting was a child molester I'd think twice before buying Don't Stand So Close to Me.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Base morality is universal. The say otherwise is inhuman.
"Lulz, they're just games" isn't an excuse. Games are interactive media, the most popular and profitable form of media in history. To dismiss them as "just games" dismisses the massive power games, and other forms or art, have to shape the greater culture and the minds of the consumers of the arts.
I have mixed feelings about Armikrog now because Doug TenNaple is a big GamerGate supporter. He and Adam Baldwin went on a witch hunt to try to get a journalist fired, not knowing who the journalist was or anything and wound up to be a big hoax. Fortunately the journalist didn't lose his job but Doug and Adam just patted each other on the back and went "oops, guess you weren't a witch, my bad!". He went out of his way to hurt someone who had nothing to do with anything.
Very well put.
Lalalandia
Member
That's all very disingenuous and avoids discussing what Polish far right groups are up to. No one is claiming these groups are for a greater German Reich but except for that there's not a lot to seperate them.
They are both xenophobic, they both believe in racial superiority, they both endorse political violence. Pulling the National Polish Army from '45 into this is a nonsense, they share none of the same goals and represents a disgusting appropriation of dead patriots as a shield. There are a lot of nasty far right groups that do this, witness the attempts to portray the Ustasha from Croatia as anti communist patriots and just glide right past that whole Nazi collaborators thing (ditto for Belgium, Estonia, etc, etc)
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Yep. Nail - head and all that jazz.
Cloth, electronic hardware, or even food, etc.. most people buy things resulting of things we hate ( child work, pollution, animal cruelty, etc ).
And sometime ( probably often ) you do it but you can't know it ( if anyone buy something from one of the 3 online store I work on, you are giving money to my 2 boss who are highly racist and homophobic ).
Actually it is an excuse, especially when there is no evidence connecting video game violence to real world violence. To deny someone freedom of expression on a medium that does not influence real-world behavior makes no sense to me.
When we have evidence that suggests games like these have a noticeable negative real world effect, then i'll change my viewpoint.
michaelius
Banned
I hope you aren't watching Polanski movies because otherwise you would be supporting pedophile.
Denton
Member
If you kill civilians in GTA, cops and later army go after you.
If you kill civilians in Hatred, cops and later army go after you.
Still, obviously the goal of the games is different.
Yeah it is one reason why I am curious about playing it - the art style looks interesting. The other reason is that I am curious how it will make me feel. I assume disgusted, as it should.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Yes, beliefs and values will influence it, but the art created may have nothing to do with their beliefs and, even if it does, it doesn't necessarily make the piece of art bad. If we fail to separate the art for what it is from the person who created it we run the risk of making prior assumptions about the creation rather than judging it solely on its merits or censoring it because their values don't align with ours which is a slippery slope towards self-imposed censorship.
Brutalitops
Banned
I'm sorry, but moral universalism is not a meta-ethical position I subscribe to. Moral relativism is my stance.
But that's a whole other thing I don't want to get into. At the end of the day, I have no personal issue with the contents of Hatred, but can completely understand why someone would. Those people should avoid the game.
This post from a few pages stands out to me. How do you know that? Is it fun? Is it interesting?
Aren't you jumping the gun there a little?
All anyone has seen of this, to my knowledge is a short gameplay trailer. Doesn't really say much for fun factor. Doesn't really say much about the game at all either then the violent kill finishers and Smash TV camera angle. Game could be total shit.
Point out who's denying who what, please.
And then talk about the actual topic at hand, because it does not in anyway seem to be "Should we all censor this game?"
ComputerMKII
Banned
"You don't make art out of good intentions." (Gustave Flaubert)
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Well that sure is a mish mash of political ideologies. That gay comment was questionable but for the rest they just come off as hard to read.
Any good example of this? Like a twitter/facebook post or something.
ForsakenLotus
Member
I now know why a game like this is banned from discussion. Because at some point it will turn into one side calling out another side for "supporting" a game or developer and that could pontentially lead to what I would consider a very toxic thread of implied and implicit name calling.
YianGaruga
Banned
No one is denying anyone freedom of expression. What are you talking about.
They can sell their game somewhere else, people can talk about somewhere else. It's not like it's legally banned.
And while there is no 1:1 relationship between game content (or any media content) and real world behaviour, you can't deny that media influences people.
No, it's most likely a publicity stunt.
meanspartan
Member
This is an interesting point. You can "Do" everything you can do in Hatred in any GTA game. The difference is the ludo-narrative dissonance is gone in the case of Hatred, as murder and mayhem is what the scum protagonist WANTS to do. Niko Bellic may have been a less than stellar person, but I didn't get the vibe that he wanted to mass murder Liberty City. But still, most players at some point or another did exactly that for fun.
Which is interesting. People are ok with doing that on their own, but don't want to play as a protagonist who has mass murder as a motivation?
So, as a hypothetical, would you buy a Prison Achitech expansion called Holocaust Architecht? Where you build gas chambers and there is a super fun gameplay mehanic to keep the flow of inmates as low as possible?
You don't need real world impacts to decide that a cultural product is disgusting or shouldn't be condoned by the establishment and community.
Palette Swap
Member
This is a great point and some games (like MGS2 or SpecOps) do play with that notion.
But I'd argue there's also this large disconnect between story and game where all of a sudden, in story parts, human life regains its accepted value. Suppressing that dissonance by 100% aligning the story to what the game does can lead to unsettling results - again, SpecOps is a good approach to this.
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