I am an indie developer. 4 members is still a team, and no, no man's sky is not a AAA game. AAA refers to budget.
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Anita Sarkeesian shows what one week of harassment directed at her looks like
- Thread starter ElNarez
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I am an indie developer. 4 members is still a team, and no, no man's sky is not a AAA game. AAA refers to budget.
LOL, here we go.
If you have to start a post with "I know I'll get flamed for this" then you know what you're posting is bullshit. The fact that you posted it in the midst of a discussion about Zoe Quinn and how women who make games are attacked, harassed, and generally abused is just extraordianrily ironic and shows how tone deaf you really are.
So you're in favor of segregating women developers? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
One of my best friends teaches game design and, while he has a few female students each semester, he stresses to me how much they go out of their way to alienate female students. he has said that the males will not engage the females or they'll make dumb assumptions ("girls don't even play games/play good games"), don't invite them to club functions, etc.
it shows he has no understanding of how the creative process works. as if all art is created in a vacuum, removed from the actual happenings of the world and without information/outside criticism influencing the process.
partyphone
Banned
but gamergate's original goal was to harass Zoe Quinn about a thing that didn't happen....
Anita seems to be very aware of gamergate's harassment...
Anita seems to be very aware of gamergate's harassment...
hey_monkey
Banned
Exactly. Also, it's not like I can just wake up and say OHO! TODAY I SHALL MAKE A GAME! I'm a writer and a teacher; I don't have the know-how or resources. Should I change my entire career trajectory because I'm also a gamer?
When someone doesn't like a film, do we yell, MAKE YOUR OWN? (I'm sure someone will produce one example and say yes, we do, but goddamn, we hear this all the time and it's remarkably stupid.)
stump sock
Member
or Unity! games are just making themselves these days!
I don't like being treated with condescendence. Anyway, I'm sure you're more worried about getting paid 20% less than your male conterparts than you are about breast plates in videogames or some kids insulting you online as they do everyone else.
If I'm not mistaken, what started the whole movement was an article that indeed talked about Quinn, but also some other examples. Anyway, there've been articles and videos that are fully respectable, and also the infamous Quinn harassement. No one has talked about the first part. Why? Because Quinn's case is much more marketable.
For once, this is like if there were almost no female doctors or nurses and people complained not enough women work in hospitals.
Also, as far as I know Sarkeesian has never worked in developement so she's as much an expert as I am which is zero.
About Hollywood, the question is why they don't make good movies as the market is shrinking.
Who did I insult? So far you are the only one to call me dumb or imply it.
Have you seen this Unreal Blueprint design stuff? No CLI? Might as well just be a "make video game" button on a menu!
thegirlleastlikelyto
Member
This is what privileged people say when they want to keep women and minorities out of something they consider their own. "Why did he come to this golf course," "Why did they move to this neighborhood," etc.
Film critics aren't all filmmakers. Not making an end product (or "developement" as you put it) doesn't preclude someone from analyzing themes of a creative work.
crowphoenix
Banned
So, you see few women in the field and have decided that it is more likely they just don't want to join than it is that the problematic culture is to blame, which is what women say is the problem.
Why do you feel you are entitled to anything but mocking?
and the coming hammer
Adult topics deserve adult considerations, not this mewling.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Threats should be investigatEd and prosecuTed. The RST should be outed and Or banned.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Are you really this daft (not a serious question, the answer is blatantly clear at this point)? Did you not read the part of what you said that I quoted? The part you literally said "people are dumb"?
I decree today that life is simply gaming and bad tweeting
Women are mine, they owe me a living
But ask me why and I'll spit in your eye
Oh, ask me why and I'll spit in your eye
Naaaahhhhhh. GamerGate started with a conspiracy theory about a woman (Zoe Quinn) that all turned out to be false with a quick Google search. What happened when people saw the video was not about trying to discuss ethical problems but harassing Zoe Quinn and every woman in gaming. So don't even start with this. I feared for my friends and still do with this crap still going on.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Now why would you do something that you don't like being done to you? That's the golden rule man, I don't know why you would break that so obviously.
Saying "your feelings are wrong, this is what you should actually be upset about" is super condescending. It's the very definition of patronizing.
TheSlySoul
Member
Mostly because the people's moms had to use the phone so they couldn't use it for long.
I'll call you dumb.
Just because other issues issue for women does not make this fight any less important. Crushing misogynistic attitudes is something that needs done and all I hear is bullshit from people like you. You have no right to decide what a person should focus their issue on combating.
Once again, dumb.
hey_monkey
Banned
NEITHER DO I ENJOY CONDESCENDING TREATMENT. ISN'T THAT AMAZING.
stump sock
Member
Dude, you're so far out of line, you're out of the atmosphere. You've been so condescending to women in your posts it's not even funny. You tell them what they think, you're arguing a woman's experiences with a woman that's had those experiences, and you insult Sarkeesian by dismissing her as an "entertainer" rather than an educator or scholar.
Then you have the gall to act all offended that someone is talking down to you?
More_Badass
Member
There are also many solo devs, working on both paid and freeware games.
Weltall Zero
Member
How about the ridiculously, batshit insane notion that the people that are threatening her with rape and murder if she doesn't shut up are the very backers that donated for her project and felt her work was not up to standards?
How about simple basic human decency and empathy about a person being mercilessly harassed, rather than only caring about her output as if she was a machine?
How about the precedent it makes for freedom of speech to step aside and let an angry mob of hundreds or thousands of sociopaths with zero accountability wage an endless war of moral attrition on anyone contrary to their ideas?
How about not using the middle ground fallacy to try to make your position the reasonable one?
How about not pretending you actually are looking for input on your dialectical position when all you're interested is is proving that you're right?
Look at all the games with female leads from last get, basically Tomb Raider and Remember Me, the former was sold off the back of the names legacy and Remember Me was hindered by constant heel dragging by the publisher (they had to cut the lead character being in a relationship in case guys felt weird playing as a girl with a boyfriend)
Then we had Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw, neither doing an amazing job at being inclusive
Even Bioshock Infinite wouldn't put Elizabeth on the cover, and Naughty Dog had to fight to get Ellie on the cover of TLoU
When girls do try and make games they get treated in the same way as Anita
No one is saying stop making games as they are now, they are saying lets make more diverse games that are inclusive to more people
Its not just women, it's all minorities, there are very games with lead characters that are not white males
hotnheavyload
Banned
No disrespect to you, but driving a wedge between men and women just muddies the waters further. Women call out other women on these issues just as much in the real world.
On one hand, these juvenile, knee-jerk reactions to Anita (which let's face it, men and women inside and outside the industry have also put up with for years i.e. Jack Thompson, Jennifer Hepler, etc etc) is what I see as a result of a somewhat slanted community commentary in which (young) males inadvertently feel guilty about consuming a popular gaming culture that has been spoonfed to them by publishers and the gaming media for three decades.
And then you have the gaming media, not being a moderate voice, not trying to put out fires, not trying to facilitate debate, not taking ownership for their role in the gender disparity in games media, but actively fanning the flames by telling their audience that their culture is dead! Change your ways or else! You're a bad person if you don't agree with us!
Is there any wonder there's so much animosity?
I understand 100% that this wasn't Anita's intention, but we got here because there's a complete breakdown of dialogue and communication.
Now I won't pretend understand the psychology enough to see how we got from A to B, but it doesn't take long to realise that there's a pattern emerging where one group of people are forced to be on the defensive for not explicitly agreeing with the vocal majority.
We need discussion, not accusations, finger pointing and mockery, no matter how much people disagree with "the other side".
I understand there's "anti" and "pro" GamerGate. Where are the moderates? If the only voices of 'dissension' we are hearing are the trolls, then something is wrong with our ears.
Am I making sense? It's probably bed time.
He was right, and i am not the slightest sorry for her.
What number does this make you?
Shrike_Priest
Member
Surprisingly well sourced statement, considering how irrelevant it is to the question.
Yes, computer sciences have, since the 80s, been less attractive to women. This is part of the reason why the games industry employee demographic looks the way it does and why the games are developed the way they are.
No one is arguing with you there.
What people are saying is that this leads to a skewed representation of gender in games, as well as making the games industry systematically unwelcoming to women (google Petrie multiplier). And that unless someone challenges the status quo, it will remain like this pretty much indefinitely.
The one thing I hate when people use the "artistic freedom" argument is the notion that industry creatives are so insecure that something like Feminist Frequency would "bully" them into doing something that goes against what their "true" creative desire is. Some gamers put character designers and other game developers on some kind of piedestal of artistic freedom, yet completely disempower them by saying they aren't independent enough to personally evaluate the arguments being made in Tropes vs Women. If someone doesn't agree with Anita, they'll get to design whatever the they want. No one is stopping them. And at the same time, the same gamers who use that argument completely disregard the outside pressure that developers get from publishers and market forces in terms of shaping the games in a more sexist way (#KojimaEroticCosplayQuietGate, #LastofUsCoverGate, #LifeIsStrangeLeadGate), which seemingly has a very large impact. But apparently that's a "natural" influence.
[/rant]
More_Badass
Member
Wow, what the fuck is up with account suicide and GamerGate-related threads? It's like the thread equivalent of a pitcher plant attracting flies to their doom. They just can't help themselves
He was right, and i am not the slightest sorry for her.
What happens when women "invaders" ask for better representation/a seat at the table for things that are traditionally marketed to boys?
You get crap like GamerGate.
Or you could donate to any number of charities that help out women in need.
Yes.
Women are ultra misogynists. We compete with each other, and we don't get yelled at for it. In every country known to man, women practice just as much hostile sexism as men do.
I'm a girl, and I have blatant misogynistic feelings towards women I don't know. I'm just self aware enough to know why those beliefs are primal and destructive.
I was someone who thought it was unwise to have reported details of her situation when there had been a specific threat and there was police involvement (because there was an investigation), but this is the perfect way to highlight this garbage without making her life a "stage" for these monsters. Not everyone has to agree with me here, but I always think it's worth calling out strategic candor.
She's demonstrated the concerted, malicious efforts against her and so many other women out there perfectly, and she's done it without feeding into the sorts of reactions I think the perpetrators are going for. Using their own impotent hostility to further her point in a deliberate way like this helps everything she's working toward.
She's demonstrated the concerted, malicious efforts against her and so many other women out there perfectly, and she's done it without feeding into the sorts of reactions I think the perpetrators are going for. Using their own impotent hostility to further her point in a deliberate way like this helps everything she's working toward.
He was right, and i am not the slightest sorry for her.
He's an idiot, and so is your comment.
HiredN00bs
Banned
But she is a teacher on gender equality, and if you've lived any amount of time on Earth, it's a relevant issue. Developers aren't inviting her to speak at their studios for her insights on game development per se, but rather to raise awareness on how our biases affect our lives, and in the case of developers, the work environment they foster and the games they create.
Michanical
Member
I assume Anita agrees with you that these are more important issues. Shes never said, these are the most important issues to women today. Your initial post about her being an intellectual fraud is a complete strawman of her points. Know what relying on fallacies makes you? An intellectual fraud.
Great-God: Why are you complaining about a feminist on gaming forums when there are much more important issues out there! Why arent you out helping the homeless or impoverished children. Why are you spending money on video games when there are much more worthy ways to spend you money?
See how stupid your point is?
Or they can create a project to talk about the medium as a whole and move the industry just by talking about things and making light of the medium's inadequacies.
Perhaps later they'll fund their own games, news site, and maybe even a convention.
Wait, am I talking about Anita and FemFreq or Tycho and Gabe and Penny Arcade?
I have trouble keeping these things straight.
Anton Sugar
Member
He was right, and i am not the slightest sorry for her.
Holy fuck, these juniors. I have NEVER hopped on the "lol junior" wagon but this thread, y'all. This thread.
I'm taking you to task on this.
What are the other examples, aside from Quinn, that appeared at the same time as the #GamerGate movement, as coined by Adam Baldwin?
What are these "fully respectable" Gamergate articles and videos? And no, not Thunderf00t, and no, not that bullshit "A People's History of Gamergate" which does not mention Baldwin at all and props of proven lies as truth?
The Smoking Bun
Banned
Oh there is a severe problem, the games industry is positively toxic when it comes to female representation.
However, I feel the gang from Extra Credits do a better job at critiquing the games industry as a whole.
Also,
https://www.youtube.com/user/ExtraCreditz/search?query=women
nuttyevans
Member
This is all very sad. We're in 2015 and this shit is still happening.
Beelzebufo
Banned
You can donate to those charities and Anita, so lots of women in need get money!
crowphoenix
Banned
He was right, and i am not the slightest sorry for her.
Stop giving junior members a bad name, and have some goddamn empathy for Christ's sake.
Fret not, these are accounts explicit for getting banned.
Or perhaps they are just that foolish, I'm maybe 20 posts out of being a Junior, though I wonder if I might get put in time out for chiding I give in these threads.
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