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[King Cobra]

Are you fucking kidding me right now? What he said is *literally* the definition of dehumanization.

de·hu·man·ize
dēˈ(h)yo͞oməˌnīz/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: dehumanizing
deprive of positive human qualities.

He's saying that literally, all that the person is, is a pretty face that he can stick his dick into. He's reducing the person down to a face and a mouth. Please, I'll go the other way - tell me, in no uncertain terms, how it's *not* dehumanizing to say that. If you can, I'm not adverse to admitting I'm wrong.

Also, saying you'd have sex with someone but not date them is objectifying them.

ob·jec·ti·fy
əbˈjektəˌfī
verb
"good poetry objectifies feeling"
degrade to the status of a mere object.

In this case, the "mere object" is something you'd stick your dick into. What goes along with objectifying something? Dehumanizing them.

You're going down a completely different path, your argument was that he was treating transgendered people differently. I stated that I have heard worse from heterosexual people in reference to each other. You stated that this statement had no purpose in this thread. Is all of this ringing a bell for you?

Just because he is not willing to date someone doesn't make it wrong.

No problem if you refuse to date short trans women as long as you refuse to date short cis women

You not want to date a woman that has a penis
You not want to date a woman that has broad shoulders
You not want to date a woman that has fake breasts
You not want to date a woman that has a wig
You not want to date a woman that has 5 o clock shadow

It is all ok

If you find a trans woman that does not have anything of that and you STILL not date simply because she has an Y chromossome .... you have a problem



Easiest way to do this would be start hormones at puberty time, which is getting more common in developed countries as we speak... in this case only genital surgery is required

Do you seriously believe that, honestly read what you just wrote. First of all relationships aren't all about appearances. What if you want to have your own children?

 

[lord quas]

No problem if you refuse to date short trans women as long as you refuse to date short cis women

You not want to date a woman that has a penis
You not want to date a woman that has broad shoulders
You not want to date a woman that has fake breasts
You not want to date a woman that has a wig
You not want to date a woman that has 5 o clock shadow

It is all ok

If you find a trans woman that does not have anything of that and you STILL not date simply because she has an Y chromossome .... you have a problem



Easiest way to do this would be start hormones at puberty time... in this case only genital surgery is required

Actually, I wouldn't have a problem. Who are you to decide that?

 

[Griss]

Easiest way to do this would be start hormones at puberty time, which is getting more common in developed countries as we speak... in this case only genital surgery is required

Not for breasts.

I suppose hormones at puberty would work, I had forgotten about that. If someone had gynecomastia that could also work.

Er no? Anatomically that's not possible because MTF would be missing the actual glands that create lubrication, the Bartholin and Skene’s glands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skene's_gland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartholin's_gland

Unless you're asserting that they would magically grow these glands into the skin? The only way I've heard of MTF being able to lubricate, or emulate vaginal lubrication was through some colon grafts, but it's not exactly the same as having vaginal glands dedicated to the purpose.

I raised this ages ago and no one responded. Not only that, but having read a couple of articles and seen pics of the procedure, apparently the vagina needs to be constantly manually dilated over the rest of the woman's life because the body treats it as a wound and tries to heal. Sex isn't sufficient to do this.

That's just so far from the kind of thing I'm cool with (including pictures of the procedure and results, which were really unpleasant to me) that I'm perfectly okay with saying I want nothing to do with that sexually.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Seems like a lot of prejudice is being fought with even more prejudice.

And, as has been reiterated by the level-headed folks in this thread:

Preference ≠ Prejudice

Simply because people believe they wouldn't be attracted to MTF or FTM doesn't make them a prejudiced asshole. By equating preference to prejudice, we are essentially saying that one should feel attracted to every form of man and woman that exists. That's simply biologically impossible.

The vitriol that some people in this thread are spewing is really embarrassing. Accept that fact that your opinion differs from someone else without feeling slighted against.

We still believe in tolerance, equality, and legal rights to all transgendered persons. Just because I or others would not have a sexual desire to be with them does not make us the worst people in the world.

 

[Izuna]

In a perfect world actually, I think gender just wouldn't exist as a "preference" period. I say that as a gay dude who most likely wouldn't date a MtF or FtM. It sounds funny, but I actually feel terrible about that, but I'm attracted to masculinity and (TMI)

Spoiler

I'm a bottom

so an MtF might be able to do certain things, but she's still feminine, whereas a FtM could do other things, but ultimately couldn't give me what I wanted. For instance, I think Buck Angel is fucking hot, but I don't believe I could ever "do" things with him.

That wouldn't be a perfect world. Nor is it any kind of necessary.

People's own perspective is important here. There is little reason for you to suggest it would be better if everyone was bisexual if you aren't yourself. When it comes to homosexuality being more accepted, it is so you can freely fall in love without hate and those who are interested in you won't feel scared to tell you so.

Trans (women, because I am speaking from the perspective of a man) would love to trade bodies with a woman's body. It would be to escape social judgement and, well, that should be what they want. As the way things are, it requires plastic surgery and other medical wonders of hormones and shizz, and no matter how physically convincing it is they don't get to fully become a woman, and it's not because of that their peers will still see them as a male, but because of everytime they take a hormone pill or compensate for their masculine features with makeup and such, they are reminded that they are in fact a trans woman.

Now, they may feel that they have done all they need to be happy with themselves, so and can their partner. Sure, someone is "less open" if they aren't willing to see past that and just see them as if they were a cis-woman with the same looks, but that's what having preferences means. It means we aren't all "open" and we have our own attractions especially when it comes to sex.

I do imagine people using the argument that they want kids to be a reason they would choose to use because it seems to be the most accepted answer, even if the actual reason is just false assumptions or whatever, but that would be their loss in that case, their ignorance to something they would love if they ever opened up. It can be encouraged by society, but society shouldn't force people to try and expand their boundaries when they aren't ready to.

What I hate the most is that it seems to be that if someone would enjoy something, but otherwise choose to never find out, somehow that makes them a bigot. My girlfriend isn't a bigot for not wanting to use a sex toy. Sexually people are not needed to conform to any rules. Otherwise how could we even accept a-sexual people? I see that it seems there are those in this thread that it makes us irrational to have any sort of preference be it visual or through understanding, but to some, including myself, I wouldn't not like to try sex and have whether or not I can stomach something bothering me to decided after the fact.

So the better way to phrase this would be:

If you are looking for sex and you have already hit it off with a nice girl, and then before anything happens you found out it was a trans female, would you still go for it assuming everything down-stairs works fine? And then the answer is just polling people's valid opinions.

The reason why I have to change to question from date or sex, is because to be truefully honest, someone you can really hit it off with via dating should be good material for friends. None of us here would reject being friends with a trans person just because they are trans. When presented with that choice THEN we would all probably second guess ourselves and some of our answers would change, some may not. It is never have sex now or miss out.

People do need time for these things as from what we know for certain, is that sex-change/post-op is not a standard thing that is normal to our environment unless we had a close-friend/family going through it or we went through it ourselves. This is one thing that people would have to understand.

Separate from homosexuality where I imagine would seem normal to everyone if the world stopped caring so much, even if it was in minority. Like kids being left-handed.

 

[ReturnOfTheRAT]

Seems like a lot of prejudice is being fought with even more prejudice.

And, as has been reiterated by the level-headed folks in this thread:

Preference ≠ Prejudice

Simply because people believe they wouldn't be attracted to MTF or FTM doesn't make them a prejudiced asshole. By equating preference to prejudice, we are essentially saying that one should feel attracted to every form of man and woman that exists. That's simply biologically impossible.

The vitriol that some people in this thread are spewing is really embarrassing. Accept that fact that your opinion differs from someone else without feeling slighted against.

We still believe in tolerance, equality, and legal rights to all transgendered persons. Just because I or others would not have a sexual desire to be with them does not make us the worst people in the world.

Well put. Applies to other preferences too.

 

[TheYanger]

If somebody won't fully accept you the way you are, they aren't worth your time.

Sexuality isn't only penis and vagina btw.
Here's one of the many brain scans that reveal the differences between men and (trans-) women, it's very easy to understand.
BSTc is the Stria Terminalis wich is a part of the brain for anxiety and stress.

The thing is, nobody is disputing the operation of the brain and emotions and anything else. But until your brain can will your body into being something it isn't that doesn't have any effect on the trans aspect at play here.

 

[Simply Sarah]

I'm really sorry, because I misspoke there. In my mind we were all still talking about the hypothetical trans woman who is indistinguishable from a cis woman physically, in which case the surgeries would have had to have been performed.

Obviously many or most trans women do not have this option or have not reached that stage, or perhaps don't want to or don't feel it's necessary. I had tunnel vision there.

I don't understand how a person can say that / feel like they're a normal woman, though, and not want to remove the penis if it was a choice they could make.

Except trans women can naturally grow breasts in the full range of shapes and sizes that cis women can, especially if they never go through a testosterone-driven puberty and start HRT instead. I will grant that bottom surgery would be required if you want a labia and vagina, but I'm just talking about breasts.

In any case, as I mentioned previously in this thread, intersex and other genital conditions are far far more common than people seem to think they are and many of those are addressed (sometimes ethically, sometimes not) by, wait for it, genital surgery. Sure, it's not something happening to 1 in 5 people, but its also common enough that people have a non-negligible chance of dating someone that falls in this bucket.

 

[QuickSilverD]

No problem if you refuse to date short trans women as long as you refuse to date short cis women

You not want to date a woman that has a penis
You not want to date a woman that has broad shoulders
You not want to date a woman that has fake breasts
You not want to date a woman that has a wig
You not want to date a woman that has 5 o clock shadow

It is all ok

If you find a trans woman that does not have anything of that and you STILL not date simply because she has an Y chromossome .... you have a problem

So I am not allowed to not want to date women who weren't born with vaginas?

 

[FartOfWar]

The point here is that i am revealing to you that you do not see trans women as women, but as something else, and therefore do not accept them as women. Disguise it all you want.

You aren't revealing anything I didn't explicitly state on page eleven: "There's a gestalt shift involved in so far as I socially regard transwomen as women and refer to them as such. Sexually, I must admit, I am unable to regard transwomen in precisely the way I regard cis-women. I have no sexual interest in transwomen. Clearly, and fortunately, some cis-men do not share this perspective. But to ask "how could a cis-man not want to have sex with let alone date a transwoman?" isn't far from asking "how can a gay man not want to have sex with a woman?" in so far as when the gestalt framing is sexual (I emphasize sexual), some unequivocally straight cis-men simply are unable to perceive transwomen as women."

Again, in all contexts other than personal sexual interest, I regard transwomen as women. And the outcome of this? All zero of the trasnwomen who'd want to have sex with me aren't able to. Notice that I also concede that not all straight cis men share my perspective - which I acknowledge as a good thing.

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

How is it my place to advocate to transgender sharing with women something as personal as a bathroom when I wouldn't date someone if I couldn't see them as the gender they know themselves to be?

It sounds like (but maybe I'm wrong, I haven't read the rest of the thread) your whole idea of gender is still pretty old school, and thats the root of the problem, or at least it was for me. But once you stop caring about genetics or baseline physical attributes, things get much clearer. Its all in the head really, its about how they feel and act, not what they look like. I have no issue looking at a woman with a dick and still calling her a woman now. So if I was female, it would seem pretty normal a concept to share a bathroom with them. I certainly don't see any issue with the other way around, sharing a bathroom with a transgendered man. They are a man, its a public space for men, there is no issue for me.

 

[Septimius]

Another way to think about how messy birth can be there are women with Y chromosomes. It does alter their body in certain ways but not in any way that stops their sex from genetically being female.

That's XXY, isn't it? I don't think medical peculiarities meld well with this discussion. You're gonna create a bigger dichotomy by trying to 'trick it' into being the way you think it should be.

 

[Platy]

I suppose hormones at puberty would work, I had forgotten about that. If someone had gynecomastia that could also work.

Breast development happen at any age because of hormones. See andropause or gynecomastia created by steroids.

Actually, I wouldn't have a problem. Who are you to decide that?

A person who lives in a society where it is common to not ask for a a karyotype test to every person you date.... because if everything else is good and you still have a problem this means that the problem you have is with something that you can't even SEE or KNOWN for sure unless carefully tested by scientists

So I am not allowed to not want to date women who weren't born with vaginas?

You are allowed to date people who live in the present. What happened to their body in the past is hardly important to dating.

 

[esms]

Seems like a lot of prejudice is being fought with even more prejudice.

And, as has been reiterated by the level-headed folks in this thread:

Preference ≠ Prejudice

Simply because people believe they wouldn't be attracted to MTF or FTM doesn't make them a prejudiced asshole. By equating preference to prejudice, we are essentially saying that one should feel attracted to every form of man and woman that exists. That's simply biologically impossible.

The vitriol that some people in this thread are spewing is really embarrassing. Accept that fact that your opinion differs from someone else without feeling slighted against.

We still believe in tolerance, equality, and legal rights to all transgendered persons. Just because I or others would not have a sexual desire to be with them does not make us the worst people in the world.

I'm just gonna start calling out the rational posters in this thread. You are one of them. Congratulations.

 

[Coolluck]

I share EvilLore's opinion on this. It's not a far out opinion to have and I don't see why I'd need to be well-prepared to defend that position since it's my preference.

 

[Takuan]

As a side note, I love your tag because I like to think your soon to be fiance is a gaffer and a mod wants to be a dick and spoil the surprise.

It's Kabouter's doing, and while he totally is being a dick, it's not to spoil the surprise; it's to rub it in, more than anything else.

 

[BamfMeat]

Yes, a person is more than that. I have never said or implied otherwise.

That said, I am not obligated to date all persons.

I'd wager all of us have rejected dates for any number of reasons that may seem shallow to others. Luckily, my taste in women has nothing to do with my feelings on the rights and legal protection of trans people.

Also, you have altered the words of my original post, fyi. If you wish to remain offended, at least make sure I said what you think I said.

Original:

"I wouldn't date; might let fellate."

There you go. Similar sentiment, less definite. So you "might" let a trans person fellate you but you wouldn't date them. Am I getting this right now? Is this the clear definition of what you were saying? Are we clear, here?

Your statement was reductive, whether you meant it that way or not. And I'm not the only person in this thread to think that. It was crude and in poor taste. And I'd say that whether it was a trans person you were speaking of, a woman, a man, whoever. In this case, we're discussing trans people.

We can argue in circles all day long, but at the end of the day, that statement is offensive - again, doesn't matter who or what we're talking about. It's fine if you don't care that it's offensive, but it's really kinda disgusting LOL

 

[TheYanger]

The point here is that i am revealing to you that you do not see trans women as women, but as something else, and therefore do not accept them as women. Disguise it all you want.

No, we're not. The argument all along is that sex and gender are separate, are they not? I can treat your gender as female without finding you attractive as a sexual woman would be to me. If you say that the two cannot exist without the other, then you enter into the territory where many people are flat out going to say a trans woman isn't a woman.

 

[Trojita]

Seems like a lot of prejudice is being fought with even more prejudice.

And, as has been reiterated by the level-headed folks in this thread:

Preference ≠ Prejudice

Simply because people believe they wouldn't be attracted to MTF or FTM doesn't make them a prejudiced asshole. By equating preference to prejudice, we are essentially saying that one should feel attracted to every form of man and woman that exists. That's simply biologically impossible.

The vitriol that some people in this thread are spewing is really embarrassing. Accept that fact that your opinion differs from someone else without feeling slighted against.

We still believe in tolerance, equality, and legal rights to all transgendered persons. Just because I or others would not have a sexual desire to be with them does not make us the worst people in the world.

They believe this but I doubt in a real world application it would happen. If you are attracted to someone fully until the point you hear they weren't born the gender you thought, that isn't some innocuous preference anymore. It's like saying you don't have a preference for *insert race* even if you haven't seen an attractive *insert race* person in your life because the amount of *insert race* people you've ever met is very low.

 

[Union Carbine]

There is no argument you can make that operations or supplements make anything "real" in any medical term. I'll allow it to be called an emulation, but it does not change the sex. The gender part of it is easy. I respect that all the way. Pretending it's real won't do anyone any favors. It's tough, but it's true. There is nothing wrong with anyone not minding dating someone that's trans. It's not wrong to have any sexual orientation. But to me, my sexual orientation pertains to the sex. I am heterosexual. I wish to date people of the opposite sex. Others have a gender-based interpretation of sexuality. Nothing wrong with that, either.

That's exactly what I've been getting at: it's got nothing to do with the realness or fakeness of the body but of the genetic gender -- the trans element.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Original:

"I wouldn't date; might let fellate."

There you go. Similar sentiment, less definite. So you "might" let a trans person fellate you but you wouldn't date them. Am I getting this right now? Is this the clear definition of what you were saying? Are we clear, here?

Your statement was reductive, whether you meant it that way or not. And I'm not the only person in this thread to think that. It was crude and in poor taste. And I'd say that whether it was a trans person you were speaking of, a woman, a man, whoever. In this case, we're discussing trans people.

We can argue in circles all day long, but at the end of the day, that statement is offensive - again, doesn't matter who or what we're talking about. It's fine if you don't care that it's offensive, but it's really kinda disgusting LOL

Well, at least you learned how to use "literally."

Go in peace and be offended.

 

[Septimius]

A person who lives in a society where it is common to not ask for a a karyotype test to every person you date.... because if everything else is good and you still have a problem this means that the problem you have is with something that you can't even SEE or KNOWN for sure unless carefully tested by scientists

Why are so many of the arguments of the 'everyone should want to date trans people' type based on such flimsy views? Weak arguments for the veracity of someone's sex combined with hyperboles won't "convert" anyone.

 

[Ishida]

A person who lives in a society where it is common to not ask for a a karyotype test to every person you date.... because if everything else is good and you still have a problem this means that the problem you have is with something that you can't even SEE or KNOWN for sure unless carefully tested by scientists

That doesnt' give you ANY right on what people are attracted to, so you didn't answer that question.

 

[Simply Sarah]

No, we're not. The argument all along is that sex and gender are separate, are they not? I can treat your gender as female without finding you attractive as a sexual woman would be to me. If you say that the two cannot exist without the other, then you enter into the territory where many people are flat out going to say a trans woman isn't a woman.

Let's go with the sex/gender dichotomy you talk about here. How are we defining sex? Or, as you oddly put it, a "sexual woman".

 

[Zen_Arcade]

And I think it's easy to see at this point how one might read you as making sweeping claims about all cis men. I don't happen to think you are, because I saw the post where you said, "To clarify, I would date a white cis man if he was sufficiently educated on the systems of privileges and prejudices that rule our society, if he was actively anti-racist, if he was actively working to dismantle that hierarchy," but if someone happened to miss that post, and saw the multiple posts where you made generalized claims about "cis men" or "white cis men," it's understandable how they would think that is your opinion.

I didn't miss it, I discounted it because right after it she claimed that in 30 years no cis white male has met that standard. Which I think is probably more based in her prejudice towards white men then it is reality. I find it very hard to believe she's met people from every other race and ethnicity that have these qualities, but suspiciously has never met a white male (The only group of people she has a clear bias against) that has as well.

Essentially, I saw it, but I don't believe her claims considering her attitude about everything else in the situation.

 

[MikeyB]

We can argue in circles all day long, but at the end of the day, that statement is offensive - again, doesn't matter who or what we're talking about.

What if the other person is a consenting adult with no interest in long-term dating and who had fundamentally different life projects than you? Like they were going to go to the Himalayas to promote organic something or other and you're interested in virology in Manitoba.

 

[QuickSilverD]

You are allowed to date people who live in the present. What happened to their body in the past is hardly important to dating.

So what you're saying is that a Transwoman's vagina is virtually indistinguishable from a ciswoman's vagina?

 

[TheYanger]

Let's go with the sex/gender dichotomy you talk about here. How are we defining sex? Or, as you oddly put it, a "sexual woman".

Sex is biological. You can take hormones and have surgeries, but you cannot change your actual biology.

 

[Septimius]

That's exactly what I've been getting at: it's got nothing to do with the realness or fakeness of the body but of the genetic gender -- the trans element.

I'm sorry, I don't really follow. Genetic gender? What's the trans element?

 

[Jenov]

I raised this ages ago and no one responded. Not only that, but having read a couple of articles and seen pics of the procedure, apparently the vagina needs to be constantly manually dilated over the rest of the woman's life because the body treats it as a wound and tries to heal. Sex isn't sufficient to do this.

That's just so far from the kind of thing I'm cool with (including pictures of the procedure and results, which were really unpleasant to me) that I'm perfectly okay with saying I want nothing to do with that sexually.

Yes, because it's not an exact replica of a vagina, it's biologically not going to work like one and the body will not recognize it as a real vagina and will work to close it if not kept dilated. There's a definite need for more acceptance of transgender people, but at the same time there's no need to try and outright lie about the biology and the shortcomings of such a surgery.

 

[Union Carbine]

I'm sorry, I don't really follow. Genetic gender? What's the trans element?

Sorry, chromosomal gender I guess-- maybe I didn't phrase it well.

 

[Petrie]

Yes, because it's not an exact replica of a vagina, it's biologically not going to work like one and the body will not recognize it as a real vagina and will work to close it if not kept dilated. There's a definite need for more acceptance of transgender people, but at the same time there's no need to try and outright lie about the biology and the shortcomings of such a surgery.

This all day long.

It is not the same, and science can't currently make it the same.

 

[Platy]

Seems like a lot of prejudice is being fought with even more prejudice.

And, as has been reiterated by the level-headed folks in this thread:

Preference ≠ Prejudice

Simply because people believe they wouldn't be attracted to MTF or FTM doesn't make them a prejudiced asshole. By equating preference to prejudice, we are essentially saying that one should feel attracted to every form of man and woman that exists. That's simply biologically impossible.

The vitriol that some people in this thread are spewing is really embarrassing. Accept that fact that your opinion differs from someone else without feeling slighted against.

We still believe in tolerance, equality, and legal rights to all transgendered persons. Just because I or others would not have a sexual desire to be with them does not make us the worst people in the world.

The problem is that most people think "i would not date a transgender person" they think "i would not date George Bluth Sir in a dress" where to me it sounds like "I would not date someone from Alabama".
"Girls who are born in alabama" is as a unified group as transgender women. It simply can't enter my mind that if the perfect girl said that she is infertile because she has the Y cromossome people would simply stop dating at ALL.

So what you're saying is that a Transwoman's vagina is virtually indistinguishable from a ciswoman's vagina?

If she did the surgery with the lastest technique (usualy with doctors from Thailand which are the ones that created it) ....yes

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

They believe this but I doubt in a real world application it would happen. If you are attracted to someone fully until the point you hear they weren't born the gender you thought, that isn't some innocuous preference anymore. It's like saying you don't have a preference for *insert race* even if you haven't seen an attractive *insert race* person in your life because the amount of *insert race* people you've ever met is very low.

Well the thread title did not specifically state what would happen if you found out that your partner was trans. That's an extremely loaded question and one that encompasses a lot of my personal values and beliefs about gender.

Regardless, I could not definitely answer that question right now as it's a unique experience. However, as of right this moment, I could say that I do not have a desire to date a knowingly trans person.

The problem is that most people think "i would not date a transgender person" they think "i would not date George Bluth Sir in a dress" where to me it sounds like "I would not date someone from Alabama".
"Girls who are born in alabama" is as a unified group as transgender women. It simply can't enter my mind that if the perfect girl said that she is infertile because she has the Y cromossome people would simply stop dating at ALL.

Again, this is implying that a relationship has already begun. That is an entirely different discussion from what the OP asked; which encompassed dating from right this moment.

 

[Simply Sarah]

Sex is biological. You can take hormones and have surgeries, but you cannot change your actual biology.

This in no way answers my question. What is the "biology" being talked about?

 

[wildfire]

In this thread, it's apparently bigotry to be a queer trans person and not want to date white cis men... lol

That wasn't the point 90% of them were making. They were offended by your assertion that cis white males are ignorant and dangerous even though you couched your term with people I have seen so far. They were seeing your viewpoint as defining all of them as such, including those you haven't met.

There also is the problem that some of them don't appreciate how much they can potentially benefit from male privilege let alone cis white male privilege. Even when I started this thread it took awhile to appreciate what privileges I benefit from when it comes to gender politics.

 

[esms]

This all day long.

It is not the same, and science can't currently make it the same.

Interesting. What if science reached the point where a 100% replica could be made? Would you date a transgender person then?

 

[Platy]

Again, this is implying that a relationship has already begun. That is an entirely different discussion from what the OP asked; which encompassed dating from right this moment.

And you are implying that you have the most powerfull transdar ever =P

 

[lord quas]

A person who lives in a society where it is common to not ask for a a karyotype test to every person you date.... because if everything else is good and you still have a problem this means that the problem you have is with something that you can't even SEE or KNOWN for sure unless carefully tested by scientists

This arguments holds for everything someone decides not to disclose during a date... Some people are just not into certain women. In this case, these women are transgendered. That really is all there is to it. I do not devaluate them, I do not NOT see them as women, I'm just not attracted, just like there are other women I am not attracted to.

 

[Haly]

Preference is malleable. Prejudice, less so.

If you say you prefer not to date transgenders, than this implies that you would be open to it if circumstances are right.

If you flat out say you would never date transgenders under any realistic circumstances, and that you would split with someone the moment you discovered they were transgender, well, that's more of a prejudice.

You can replace "transgender" with any race, religion, or creed and you'll see the difference more clearly.

As far as prejudices go, this is relatively small. I think people are more upset that they're accused of being prejudiced at all, like it colors their entire person, which is obviously not true in the same way that racists can still live a functional, productive life in society. Yes, it's hard to imagine that decent people might have one or two areas where they're not so decent, but that's humans for you.

I'd like to point out that there are multiple older and/or extinct societies that have had third genders, usually males taking the social position of females. If you were raised in that culture, and suddenly transported through time to 2015, culture shock aside the idea of dating a transgender person probably wouldn't be as strange. Does there need to be any more evidence that "gender" and "heterosexuality" are just social constructs subject to mutation?

I like to think so.

And if it is something that can be "overcome" (and I'm not saying society should), then that means your refusal to date transgenders can be seen as prejudice.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

And you are implying that you have the most powerfull transdar ever =P

No, but considering this is such a large social construct at this point in time, I imagine that this sort of topic would be broached at one point or another should the opportunity ever present itself.

 

[QuickSilverD]

If she did the surgery with the lastest technique (usualy with doctors from Thailand which are the ones that created it) ....yes

See, this is the thing, I don't believe you.

 

[Petrie]

Interesting. What if science reached the point where a 100% replica could be made? Would you date a transgender person then?

I think it would get rid of a huge hurdle. As I've said, I love to eat pussy. I won't get more crass than that, but I won't even date a girl who doesn't love her pussy eaten, so I'm certainly not dating someone trans who doesn't have an actual pussy.

 

[Septimius]

Sorry, chromosomal gender I guess-- maybe I didn't phrase it well.

You mean sex? That's the point. I respect their new gender, all the way. I respect equality, all the way. I do not view them as now having the opposite sex that they were born with, however. Gender is identity, sex is biological. I do not look down on trans people just because of my view, it just means my preference is not to date one.

 

[Newt]

My new dating policy = no karyotype no date.

 

[Trey]

Sex is biological. You can take hormones and have surgeries, but you cannot change your actual biology.

You change your "actual biology" all the time. Every time you eat, every time you get drunk. And then you can get sick. Physical trauma can change how you operate on a fundamental level. Medicine and other drugs designed to improve your condition change your biochemistry. And as you age, your biological makeup changes both due to the inherent nature of your protein structures, and outside influences like lifestyle and environment.

I know it's difficult to imagine, but the body is much more malleable than we have expected for years. What makes a person is no longer necessarily decided at birth, if it ever was.

 

[Griss]

Yes, because it's not an exact replica of a vagina, it's biologically not going to work like one and the body will not recognize it as a real vagina and will work to close it if not kept dilated. There's a definite need for more acceptance of transgender people, but at the same time there's no need to try and outright lie about the biology and the shortcomings of such a surgery.

And with this newfound knowledge it only confirms what I felt like before - that I just wouldn't really 'feel' or 'believe' I was penetrating an actual vagina, you know? I'd be penetrating a wound where a penis used to be instead. A penis which was surgically removed, which already makes me cringe and want to hold my nuts in sympathy pain. And all of these thoughts (or any of them) would kill the arousal for me. It's harsh but it is what it is. No constructed or fake vaginas for me, thanks.

 

[Riposte]

The point here is that i am revealing to you that you do not see trans women as women, but as something else, and therefore do not accept them as women. Disguise it all you want.

I disagree, but your point isn't entirely wrong. The thing is the definition of women needs to be and has been made to be more inclusive (especially in face of such questionable qualifiers, who you would date). However that doesn't stop the distinctions between women when they arise (which can be seen as transphobic).

 

[Principate]

Seems like a lot of prejudice is being fought with even more prejudice.

And, as has been reiterated by the level-headed folks in this thread:

Preference ≠ Prejudice

Simply because people believe they wouldn't be attracted to MTF or FTM doesn't make them a prejudiced asshole. By equating preference to prejudice, we are essentially saying that one should feel attracted to every form of man and woman that exists. That's simply biologically impossible.

The vitriol that some people in this thread are spewing is really embarrassing. Accept that fact that your opinion differs from someone else without feeling slighted against.

We still believe in tolerance, equality, and legal rights to all transgendered persons. Just because I or others would not have a sexual desire to be with them does not make us the worst people in the world.

I understand this argument but also doesn't entirely make sense to me For example I do not date Black people (as in never), such a statement would imply regardless of how many hundreds of millions of black people with various appearances you have already made the decision that none of them are attractive to you, This means you have made a decision on black people before you've ever met them and that is text book prejudice because that's exactly what that person has done.

There's a difference between that and preference, I for example dislike mayonnaise can't stand the stuff when I taste it on it's or a something that distinctly tastes of it but certain sandwiches extra I'm fine with, it the same with lots of food, that's a preference, I rather not have mayonnaise but under certain scenario's I can. .

The words I will never or never want imply you have taken into account all permeability's and scenarios of such event and have already made a decision and I can understand why someone may construe something else, because it's at best prejudice. I prefer not to date such and such or generally don't, I'm ok with but when you deal in absolutes it definitely feels iffy.

 

[Platy]

See, this is the thing, I don't believe you.

And how would you believe ?

We had a member that got back from the exact surgeon a few months ago ... if you want I can ask her to come explain to you in details ... but I doubt she will prove you with pictures =P