stufte
Member
I think he was confusing the phrase "don't use transgendered" with not using the word transgender at all.
If you wouldn't date transgender people, where do you begin to regard their gender?
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I think he was confusing the phrase "don't use transgendered" with not using the word transgender at all.
ShooterMcGavin
Member
I'm literally just trying to figure out what is acceptable terminology in your opinion, because I have never heard someone say "transexual" or "transgendered" is offensive.
Simply Sarah
Member
For a more clear and accurate answer: "Transgender" is an adjective, so you don't need to add "ed" to the end, just "transgender person/man/woman". I will agree that it's not offensive as much as just a bit of awkward language, which is why I didn't bother trying to correct it earlier like I had with "a transgender".
Even that distinction is fuzzy these days. Transsexual as a term certainly seems to get much less use with younger trans people as the desire to distinguish seems to have lessened for that group, which I'd probably include myself in. But yes, it's confusing and it's not really a big deal to get mixed up.
What I can't understand is the lack of understanding of some certain trans people that they're different physically from cis women and how that affects dating and attractiveness. From personal experience, (as I mentioned before) I had hormonal issues and needed some surgeries and some work done in sensitive areas. It sucked that it happened to me, but it did, and I still feel and deal with the effects, and it has been horrible. I knew it would making dating a horrible experience in a lot of ways and it has. But I would never say 'Anyone who would refuse to date me or sleep with me solely because of these issues is an asshole / shallow / prejudiced.' I'd say that's their right to make that call and nothing else because attraction is intensely personal and sexual compatibility and arousal are essential in a relationship.
So I imagine if I was trans I'd have the same attitude. Something like 'I've had these issues that most people of my gender don't and that aren't ideal; and as a result many people will have a problem with being attracted to me physically, but it's for me to bear this burden and everyone who's not interested has every right not to be'. Frankly it's practically the same thought process and similar functional issues, when I think about it. But I know that people who reject me sexually aren't rejecting my entire identity as a man, and people who reject a trans person sexually aren't rejecting that person's gender identity either. Trans people don't seem to see it that way, though. (Probably because they're used to being attacked and humiliated, which I know I don't understand how that feels at all and is absolutely disgusting.)
As to the bolded, why not, when many of them are? Homosexuality and heterosexuality are immutable for the vast majority of people, no? I've certainly never been attracted to any of the 10s of thousands of men I've come across in my life. Pretty immutable. I'm in my 30s, and am yet to be attracted to large breasts. Maybe it will happen, but that seems pretty immutable to me at this stage. Why do I need to look behind that lack of attraction? What am I meant to learn, or find out, and why?
One does not need to define themselves in a certain way to have a trait. Being transgendered is definitely a trait. You can't self-define out of that, any more than I can self-define out of the group of 'people with huge heads' or 'people with sticky-out ears' or 'people who've had multiple surgeries' etc. It's an undeniable physical attribute. In dating, physical attributes matter.
So I imagine if I was trans I'd have the same attitude. Something like 'I've had these issues that most people of my gender don't and that aren't ideal; and as a result many people will have a problem with being attracted to me physically, but it's for me to bear this burden and everyone who's not interested has every right not to be'. Frankly it's practically the same thought process and similar functional issues, when I think about it. But I know that people who reject me sexually aren't rejecting my entire identity as a man, and people who reject a trans person sexually aren't rejecting that person's gender identity either. Trans people don't seem to see it that way, though. (Probably because they're used to being attacked and humiliated, which I know I don't understand how that feels at all and is absolutely disgusting.)
As to the bolded, why not, when many of them are? Homosexuality and heterosexuality are immutable for the vast majority of people, no? I've certainly never been attracted to any of the 10s of thousands of men I've come across in my life. Pretty immutable. I'm in my 30s, and am yet to be attracted to large breasts. Maybe it will happen, but that seems pretty immutable to me at this stage. Why do I need to look behind that lack of attraction? What am I meant to learn, or find out, and why?
One does not need to define themselves in a certain way to have a trait. Being transgendered is definitely a trait. You can't self-define out of that, any more than I can self-define out of the group of 'people with huge heads' or 'people with sticky-out ears' or 'people who've had multiple surgeries' etc. It's an undeniable physical attribute. In dating, physical attributes matter.
Transsexual is definitely usually regarded as offensive. Just using transgender suffices.
Obviously a lot of people are going to have racial preferences because people are often racially prejudiced. Just don't pretend like you aren't. That's all I'm sayin.
RageWaffles
Member
This is exactly what it's like.
It's racist is say you'd never, ever date a black woman because you find them unattractive. It's transphobic to say that you'd never, ever date a transwoman because you find them unattractive.
If you're attracted to cis women because you can only tolerate having sexual thoughts about someone with a pussy, then you're probably more attracted to vulvas than women themselves.
ShooterMcGavin
Member
Edit - You know what, no, I was in the right here.
liliththepale
Banned
Except those aren't exactly the same thing. Many transgender people elect to go through a transition and become transsexual, and a very small number of cisgender people do as well.
Thank you. I think I'm just gonna stick to trans, if that's OK. Less syllables.
Union Carbine
Member
An undeniable physical attribute that's potentially totally invisible to you?
Hence me saying usually, I have seen some people identify as transsexual, but it's fairly rare in my experience.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Uhh...I thought we talked about this already? If you're not attracted to a certain ethnicity because you find them unattractive, it isn't racist.
liliththepale
Banned
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe transgender continues to accurately describe most transsexuals. At that point their gender and sex are the same, so it's not transgender anymore. Is this wrong?
Think i'm gonna hop off as it's starting to sound like i'm not actually welcome in this debate anymore (basically not wanting to have sex with a transgender makes me a bigot, well so it is I guess ?...shouldn't I have a voice in my own sexual preferences ?)
But cheers to the people I interacted with, nice food for thought
But cheers to the people I interacted with, nice food for thought
Simply Sarah
Member
Haha, yes, that's how I tend to go as well. And, once again, I appreciate your efforts to try and understand all this because considering even I don't always get it I can only imagine how it is to someone not living it.
Can't tell if you're joking or not honestly.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
So I'm forced to be attracted to all women in order to be seen as not being prejudiced*?
Edit-*Racist, actually.
I think a lot of the bickering revolves around the fact that some people use the terms "male" and "female" in terms of sex or genetics, some use it terms of gender, and some use it in a hybrid kind of way. So basically, people are shouting at each other because when they read something it doesn't fit how they personally use the terms and seems off. Perhaps trying to figure out what the other person means would be a good first step.
t-storm
Member
23qwerty go be a dick elsewhere.
I was born male. I am a transgender woman. And if we were to meet and if I didn't immediately share that information with you, would that be an act of deception? Could you accuse me of telling a lie if you were to see what you wanted to see with your own eyes and I decided to simply keep quiet. And if I were to presume things about you that were not true, could I accuse you of misleading me too? Or would such careless accusations of deception merely be expressions of callous pride, a stubborn refusal to acknowledge our own mistaken assumptions?
- Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity, by Julia Serano
^ I think everyone should read it. It gave me a lot to think about my own attitudes.
Well, that sounds preconceived to me. I think you're also misunderstanding me. When I said that, I'm talking about a woman who just happened to be walking by on the street. You're not expecting to have sex with her or anything; the question is simply, "Would you find her attractive?" and it seems like the answer is, "For the time being, yes."
But since you've already jumped in bed with the hypothetical person, I have another question. When you say that arousal for you requires the idea of a natural set of genitals, do you mean that if a trans woman's genitalia was indistinguishable to your eye, and you were unaware of its, er, provenance, that you would find her attractive? And that you would lose your attraction to her if you found that her genitalia was not what she was born with?
This still sounds like textbook prejudice to me. I think it's somewhat akin to thinking that gay people kissing is gross. Your grossed out response might seem completely natural to you, but it is still a learned response. Or for a perhaps less fraught example, it is akin to a fear of some creepy-crawly animal, one that you don't have as an infant or a toddler but acquire later as you grow up. If you could look at a woman without knowing whether she is cis or trans and find her attractive, and then only lose your attraction upon being told that she was trans (as opposed to you being able to tell because she didn't meet your standards of verisimilitude), I'd call that prejudicial.
I should say that as a gay man the question is somewhat different for me. Presumably the ability to reconstruct a penis has improved since last I saw images five or so years ago, but I'd have to confess that I do understand the idea that genitalia not looking "right" would be a misgiving in a long-term relationship, because what I saw wasn't convincing. I actually found images of trans men who hadn't had that surgery done to be more attractive, oddly enough. In any case, it's much easier to go your direction than mine, so to speak. And I know for certain that if trans men were as blessed as trans women can be in this particular respect, it wouldn't be a question for me.
Obviously you don't have to find everyone attractive, but if you can honestly say that you don't find some black/indian/chinese/whatever women attractive because of the colour of their skin, then you're probably racist on some level.
What? No it's not. Transgender is an umbrella term that includes MTF/FTM transsexuals as well as several other identities.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Except I didn't say anything about the color of the skin, did I now? Different kinds of ethnicity have different features, not just skin color. Shame on you for thinking I was talking about skin color. Tsk.
RageWaffles
Member
As an example, it's okay to have a preference for red-heads, but exclusively dating them would be viewed as very weird.
It's the same for pretty much any other immutable quality.
That's not at all what anyone is saying.
Edit: oh, okay. I see that you're just trolling now.
It's the least I can do. If you're brave enough to go through the transition, I can be human enough to empathize with the social ramifications of said transition. Understanding is the end point and I'll get there eventually.
Simply Sarah
Member
OK, let me try to explain this a bit if I can (better than what I posted above). You are correct in that not all that long ago transsexual was the common term used to refer to people that transitioned from one gender to another. However, in more recent times it seems to have largely fallen out of favour with said people for a few reasons. Or, rather, many younger/more activist/outspoken trans people, at least. One is that it has gotten a bit of an association with porn, another is that transgender as a broader umbrella term seems to largely have been accepted as "good enough" (both of out trying to take the focus away from the actual transition and out of solidarity), and another is that there seem to be greater numbers of trans folk we don't want to have things like surgery as part of their transition (or maybe these people weren't recognized as existing previously, I can't say for certain). As a result, you often will see a divide on if transsexual is used at all depending on the specific group of trans people you're dealing with. Because things aren't confusing enough.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I have a friend who exclusively dates Asians. Yeah, it's weird. Not racist though, he's talked about what ifs with other different(Ethnicity, since I've questioned him on this) kind of girls.
? And how would I be trolling?
I should have specified perhaps that using transsexual to refer to most transgender people would be seen as offensive..
ShooterMcGavin
Member
That's a pretty hefty accusation you keep throwing around.
Would you rather I say racially prejudiced? Or are you content ignoring the fact that I said "on some level" immediately after.
I can't hold all these semantics
Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I'm attracted to the concept of female biology. I also don't agree that a constructed vagina would be 'invisible' compared to a real one. I think you'd know immediately.
DJ Crimson
Banned
I'm in tears. I can't stop laughing.
ShooterMcGavin
Member
Yeahhh, I give up. You can label me whatever you want at this point. Whatever floats your boat.
Son, I would bet you can't even pick out the X from a spread. If, for example, you would be the type to divorce your wife if she loses her reproductive organs from cancer or something, I'll buy the argument. If not, admit your bigotry for what it is.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Him saying he's attracted to the biology is probably a nicer way of saying he's attracted to a women who was born with the correct sex.
I see. For me, atleast, I don't care about skin color, I love me dark and light honies equally, but there are features such as nose, height, body ratio, ears, and hair that I look at sometimes without catching myself. If their forehead is too big, ears too wide, nose doesn't fit the fact, eyes don't fit the face, short legs, etc.
It's pretty shallow, but I have a wide variety of 'likes' and 'dislikes'. Some are more inherent to one ethnicity than another, or it may not be present at all and it could be an outlier.
Yeah, I can be pretty shallow at times.
It's been reported that even gynecologists often cannot tell a patient is trans if she does not disclose it.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Quick and honest:
Nope. I wouldnt be attracted to a transgendered woman or man.
I would also love to have my own children, though thats not really a big factor.
It doesnt mean I dont see those as a woman, but I really could never be attracted to one. Would turn me off.
Nope. I wouldnt be attracted to a transgendered woman or man.
I would also love to have my own children, though thats not really a big factor.
It doesnt mean I dont see those as a woman, but I really could never be attracted to one. Would turn me off.
User 73706
Banned
I was just about to repost it, thanks. People really love trying to justify that one.
liliththepale
Banned
I thought the whole point was that you always have been the gender that you are now, just that your sex was built wrong.
I'm just trying to be accurate as I can.
If someone identifies as a male, man or masculine person, that's what you call him. If someone identifies as a female, woman or feminine person, that's what you call her. If someone has one gender and a different sex, then they are transgender. If someone used to have one sex and now has a different one, they are transsexual. Assigning other definitions only adds to the confusion people have.
RageWaffles
Member
Fetishes can be based on racism, and benevolent racism is still racism.
come on, now.
stufte
Member
Come on, don't do that. Don't try to belittle someone you're having a conversation with in that way. It does nothing for the discourse in this thread and only serves to raise tensions.
Yeah so, don't search for trans vagina on google.
I am probably more turned off the idea than ever seeing them surgery pics. Felt my stomach turn.
If anything, the argument that a man can even find it hard to have sex after seeing his wife give birth is a nice part of it.
I am totally not convinced that if I went down on even half the of trans-pussys out there I wouldn't notice. It better to just, I dunno, let me know beforehand?
But honestly this is super hypothetical since I'm engaged anyway. It's bigotry to claim other people couldn't find them sexually attractive or that you couldn't love a trans woman if you are straight, but to say you'd rather not date them does not mean you don't regard them as women.
I am probably more turned off the idea than ever seeing them surgery pics. Felt my stomach turn.
If anything, the argument that a man can even find it hard to have sex after seeing his wife give birth is a nice part of it.
I am totally not convinced that if I went down on even half the of trans-pussys out there I wouldn't notice. It better to just, I dunno, let me know beforehand?
But honestly this is super hypothetical since I'm engaged anyway. It's bigotry to claim other people couldn't find them sexually attractive or that you couldn't love a trans woman if you are straight, but to say you'd rather not date them does not mean you don't regard them as women.
So you only want the Platonic ideal of sex? Does that leave a Platonic ideal of a wet spot?
Eh, don't sweat it, it's not really the easiest thing to think about.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Or it could just be a fetish. My friend was raised in an asian community(He's latino), so maybe that's just what he looks for?
Yup, I called him out for calling me a racist. You didn't expect me to just sit while being accused of a racist?
Simply Sarah
Member
Ah, fair enough. What I meant there was one gender role to another, rather than becoming another gender. Sorry, I'm not being as clear as I should be right now, maybe I should take another break. x_x
This isn't put well.
You aren't observing if 1, 2, 3 means the person is racist, but looking at what they said and calling the sentence racist.
Not all black girls have frizzy hair.
I also, honest to god, HATE that black girls are always used as the example by those who claim they even not have a preference themselves.
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