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[FallingEdge]

This is not true, this discussion has been had many times.
A pc that outperforms a ps4 now will still do so in 3 years, 5 years, ten years



It's the consumer who loses the most.
One of the big draws of consoles was the subsidised hardware. You'd pay a lower cost upfront than for a pc and get hardware sold at below production cost for your money.
It helped offset the higher prices for the games (due to platformholder royalties that don't exist on PC)
The new consoles are no longer subsidised, and with them much of the value appeal for them dissapeared. And this is not okay, people should ask for subsidised hardware again next gen. Because as it is now it's much better to simply buy a pc instead.

Here's what a console used to represent compared to a pc
+low entry cost
+subsidised hardware
+no patches
+heavy QA for software aimed at a fixed platform (less bugs, consistent framerates, no screentearing)
+no game installs (immediacy)
-long loading times
-royalties mean high game prices
-closed platform
-no modding and 0 control over savefiles and game settings

All the +es have been dissapearing between last gen and current gen, and now one of the last remaining ones (subsidised hardware) is gone too.
Meanwhile the - s have remained put and some new ones have been added (online fees being the main one)

Any rational consumer, any fan or loyal user of the platform should be balking at these benifits and that extra value going away.
Yet somehow a subset of people take great offense at any discussion about it, they'd rather stick their heads in the sand than deal with reality, vote with their wallets or try to do something about it.

And you'll find that most of the people who mainly game on pc also own consoles, and they are in fact on YOUR side (the side of the consumer and the side of the console gamer ) when they complain about these things.

But somehow you take this offer to unionise ('mericuns seeing red reading this word haha) and dismiss it as people pointing and laughing at YOU (as if the problems hardware/software/business models have somehow reflect on you as a person)

I'll never understand how people take personal offense to criticism of some corporation or product.




It wasn't true last gen either, an 8800 gt and core2duo kept outperforming the last gen consoles till the very end.

How is "no patches" a positive?

 

[Durante]

It's such an odd argument though. Why would anyone try and contort themselves to build a $350 PC that might or might not play games at an equivalent quality to a PS4? If you're going to do that, just buy a PS4. The value of a PC is being able to extend a performance advantage as much as you want.

That's not the important argument to be made here.

The important argument to be made here is that we have yet another data point -- to add to a staggering amount of existing data points -- heavily indicating that the age-old talking points such as "to-the-metal" programming and "PC overhead" are vastly exaggerated at best.

And yes, this bears repeating, because people are still taking those concepts as gospel to this day.

 

[TomRL]

It's such an odd argument though. Why would anyone try and contort themselves to build a $350 PC that might or might not play games at an equivalent quality to a PS4? If you're going to do that, just buy a PS4. The value of a PC is being able to extend a performance advantage as much as you want.

But you also get nearly the entire library of video game history. Modern games are cheaper and the system itself is a way more functional one with multiple purposes. So if you can get that and performance at the same level as a modern console, why would you get a console? That's why it's an important discussion.

 

[Elixist]

lmao at OP getting juniored for this thread.

did he really? he seemed pretty level headed, maybe they sensed agenda. im still not a fan of these comparisons though, we'd definetely need the consoles game to be unlocked at least. but we can come to conclusion that yes amd needs to step their cpu game up, i wonder if they ever will again.

 

[BPoole]

Sony/MS dun goofd when they decided to go with AMD processors. I don't mind their GPUs, but when I am helping people pick PC parts, I don't even look at AMD's offerings since Intel outclassed them in every way.

 

[Durante]

Sony/MS dun goofd when they decided to go with AMD processors. I don't mind their GPUs, but when I am helping people pick PC parts, I don't even look at AMD's offerings since Intel outclassed them in every way.

They weren't really in a position to decide between AMD or Intel processors.

They decided to go with single-chip designs for cost reasons, and AMD is (or was) the only company capable of delivering "good enough" GPU and CPU performance.

 

[R10Neymarfan]

Sony/MS dun goofd when they decided to go with AMD processors. I don't mind their GPUs, but when I am helping people pick PC parts, I don't even look at AMD's offerings since Intel outclassed them in every way.

I don't think they had a choice for CPU. The APU offering was what they needed and CPU was only what was there in the offering

 

[Inuhanyou]

You don't buy consoles for performance

This is true. More performance than the competition is nice for the PS4, but the real reason i bought the thing was easily being able to play all the western next gen games in addition to the premier Japanese support that is default on PS platforms.

I would have still bought the console even if it was weaker than XB1, cause XB1 doesn't really have anything i am interested in.

did he really? he seemed pretty level headed, maybe they sensed agenda. im still not a fan of these comparisons though, we'd definetely need the consoles game to be unlocked at least. but we can come to conclusion that yes amd needs to step their cpu game up, i wonder if they ever will again.

If you know Alex's posts, he never misses a single opportunity. He's like Tacobenedicto was before he got banned. But i would never say a bad word about the guy. He has his preferences obviously and he lets you know.

 

[Clarkus Darkus]

How do we know the ps4 settings are not a mixture of very high and high? Similar to what Battlefield 4 devs did.

 

[Iorv3th]

But you also get nearly the entire library of video game history. Modern games are cheaper and the system itself is a way more functional one with multiple purposes. So if you can get that and performance at the same level as a modern console, why would you get a console? That's why it's an important discussion.

Exclusives, ease of use (platform wide online/account systems), still easier to get a game up and running.

You might buy a cheap PC but that cheap PC may still not be able to run watchdogs or something at launch. You may have to wait a few days for driver updates etc. It's just easier for many consumers to get a console.

 

[Seanspeed]

Rockstar did a pretty amazing job with CPU optimization on the PC side. That's something we often don't see with multiplatform games. It scales well with more cores, higher clocks and with hyperthreading. Basically, the better your CPU, the better the game will run plus it will utilize every bit of whatever CPU you do have. GPU-wise, it doesn't take a whole lot unless you want to do some of the more intensive effects/settings.

So the weaker console CPU's predictably limited it from being more than 30fps, even with decent optimization. Not really surprising. They'll have been running over 30fps, as with pretty much any game locked down at 30. So the console versions are arguably still accomplished, too. But this type of game loves CPU's.

I'm not sure I'd recommend an i3/750Ti build for somebody who wants to do 1080p/60fps with GTA V, as the framerate can vary quite a bit and probably wont hold 60fps without reducing some other settings, but at the very least, it *will* match the PS4 version at a 30fps, no doubt. Which is impressive for a low budget pairing, no matter how much some people don't want to admit it.

So anyways yea, kudos to Rockstar for some good work. That CPU optimization is just amazing.

 

[viveks86]

They should have added 1-2 ARM A7 or ARM A53 to the APU to handle OS and background tasks. Reserving 2 of 8 cores, when you are already having comparatively little CPU performance, seems excessive. These ARM cores have very little footprint and are strong enough for all the stuff the PS4 might do in the background. AMD was probably not yet ready for that.

Agreed. Here's hoping some of that gets unlocked in the future

 

[SneakyStephan]

How is "no patches" a positive?

It meant a game had to be as bugfree as possible before it could be put on the disc.
Yes, bugs existed on consoles during the ps2 era and there were some broken games (that were demolished by consumers and gaming press alike for daring to release like that)

Nowadays when a game goes 'gold' it means it's still several patches away from actually being done and being in a respectable working condition.

In an ideal world YES patches on consoles are awesome , but in reality it just means console games increasingly release bug ridden and with massive day one patches (because FUCK everyone who doesn't connect their console to the internet, which btw was 40 percent of xbox 360s last gen, but FUCK those people or something )
When you buy a game and need to wait a month to play it if you want to play something that's considered polished then why have a console at all?

It's an advantage that the consoles used to have and now it is gone.
(unless you go nintendo , they still get it and polish their games before selling them, seriously you should really buy a wii u if you want a console)
Consoles carved out a niche for themselves, they were not a pc but that was okay as they had their own advantages.
Sadly the concept of a console has degraded into nothing more than a shitty interpretation of a pc.
(and again, if this opinion somehow offends you, please read my last post, because it really should not)

The idealistic idea of patches is homer in chocolate land, the reality is diabetes induced blindness, loss of limb and mobility scooters.

 

[NastyBook]

alexandros
Junior Member
(Today, 02:41 PM)

Remanded to his quarters by Captain Jellico.

 

[wolfhowwl]

disappointing.gif

And I'm a pc gamer....

Sony and MS cheaped out this generation, and everyone loses.

Nah. The PS4 is fine for what it is.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Agreed. Here's hoping some of that gets unlocked in the future

The RAM reservation will be unlocked, definitely. But i am very much doubting that anything CPU core wise will be unlocked. Considering how many features need to be added to the OS, who knows how much core usage they might need in the future for that.

 

[galv]

I still fail to understand why it's so perplexing that people still underestimate the 750Ti, 270X, 660 and 580.

Sure, they're 2GB cards for the most part, but they're just as powerful as the 7870 that already beats out the console equivalents. Remember that the consoles are so close to PC architecture this time around that there isn't that much difference in their real world performance from numbers alone. They're actually behaving (maybe a little more in some games, Metro comes to mind) exactly as their parts would indicate they would.

Cards like the 750Ti, 270X, 660 and 580 all are perfectly capable of 1080p gaming at Med-High settings in most games at around 50-60 FPS. This includes games such as Shadow of Mordor, Far Cry 4, Metro Redux and Crysis 3. Sure, they aren't pushing Very High/Ultra settings but it's fine. Rarely do you see a console game running at Ultra settings on all options.

Moving onto the CPU aspect of a budget build - The Haswell i3 chips are insane value, their cores individually outperform AMD's top of the line FX processors, let alone their Jaguar APUs in the consoles and their consumer Kaveri APUs. It's a dual-core, yes, but games aren't exactly using multiple cores all that well yet. Hell, even GTA V runs on CPU 0 and CPU 1 mostly. And the budget GPUs are not going to be that held back by the CPU. It's capable enough, especially with whatever magic Intel managed to pull on the Hyperthreading on those chips.

2GB VRAM is still decent enough for 1080p gaming and it always will. You really don't need to run Ultra textures at that resolution.

Arguing that those older games didn't have next-gen "graphical features" that will only happen if they aren't released on "last-gen PS3/X360" is actually fairly wrong. The new "next-gen" stuff is actually more emphasis on Ambient Occlusion and Tesselation - DX10/11 exclusive features that games were using before the new generation came out. Volumetric Fog, HBAO+, PhysX, Tesselation, God Rays - all present in games like Arkham Origins, BioShock Infinite and Metro: Last Light. This isn't really anything new. Games with those features ran beautifully on these cards before the PS4/XO came out and nothing's really changed. I'd expect to be able to keep an R9 270X running games decently until the end of this console cycle, at least at 1080p.

 

[Harp]

Here is a riddle! Does GTA5 get made without consoles? Performance does not matter all that much as long as you can sell 45 million copies of a game at full price.

 

[Odrion]

One reason could be that, when you go with a "budget" GPU, you also often go with a "buget" CPU. As this benchmark (along with many others) shows, for DX11 (and DX9) games (the vast majority of all releases) which are CPU heavy you are then much better off with NV hardware.

But aside from GTA5 and a few scant others, modern AAA PC games just don't utilize that much CPU power beyond what a i3 can do, as these benchmarks show: http://www.techspot.com/review/972-intel-core-i3-vs-i5-vs-i7/page7.html

I'm going to have to see these other benchmarks until I believe that a 270/270X won't punch harder than a 750ti on a i3 4160. Hell, a gimmick build last year was taking a 280/280X and pairing it with a Pentium G3258 and then overclocking both to hell and back.

 

[Sendou]

Here is a riddle! Does GTA5 get made without consoles? Performance does not matter all that much as long as you can sell 45 million copies of a game at full price.

Seriously this thread is too much lol.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I think in a world of 20 gb day one patches there's really no reason to buy a console if not for exclusives. As someone pointed here all benefits of consolle are gone.

I think this kind of modern environment says more about the priorities of devs when making games than anything console wise. If a game needs a 20gb patch day 1, the game itself is probably a mess and not worth touching to begin with anyway.

I would definitely not say all benefits of buying consoles are gone. I like having a standardized control scheme, a closed ecosystem of games and services, as well as HW that i can know will be used to its max potential until it goes under. Sure i might need to download updates, but that's just the nature of game design today becoming more lax than anything else. I consider it a fair trade off to buy a singular piece of HW and keep that under my TV until i have to buy another one in 6 or so years.

Of course, i would never begrudge PC or its obvious advantages either, but what i use now is just something i prefer personally, and i still see a lot of worth in it.

 

[Kinthalis]

Here is a riddle! Does GTA5 get made without consoles? Performance does not matter all that much as long as you can sell 45 million copies of a game at full price.

Oh man, the damage control is strong with this one.

 

[Lingitiz]

Here is a riddle! Does GTA5 get made without consoles? Performance does not matter all that much as long as you can sell 45 million copies of a game at full price.

That has nothing to do with the topic at all lol.

 

[Kinthalis]

Remanded to his quarters by Captain Jellico.

Sorry, but this is some bullshit. Alexandros bringing this up is perfectly valid when console gamers STILL consistently bring up the carmack quote.

 

[Dolor]

Remanded to his quarters by Captain Jellico.

Kind of messed up if you ask me. The thread was a little provocative perhaps but was certainly a relevant topic to this forum.

 

[Qassim]

Here is a riddle! Does GTA5 get made without consoles? Performance does not matter all that much as long as you can sell 45 million copies of a game at full price.

How on earth is this relevant at all?

 

[mrklaw]

I'm not sure what the future holds for consoles either. Assuming Sony/MS stick with an APU approach for cost, and want most of that die to be GPU, won't we be stuck with relatively low CPU all over again? Do AMD have any developments that would give the CPU side a boost?

Alternatively, I'm assuming at least one of the two will go with a stacked ram arrangement for more bandwidth - in that case is an APU still possible? Maybe that will force them to go with discrete chips, and we can have more CPU.

 

[Tagyhag]

Here is a riddle! Does GTA5 get made without consoles? Performance does not matter all that much as long as you can sell 45 million copies of a game at full price.

Well gee, that's disconcerting.

 

[ShadowkillXNA]

But you also get nearly the entire library of video game history. Modern games are cheaper and the system itself is a way more functional one with multiple purposes. So if you can get that and performance at the same level as a modern console, why would you get a console? That's why it's an important discussion.

I prefer gaming on a tv not a monitor. Multiple purposes ? If I am going to play a pc game on a tv then I am sure as hell not going to write a resume or put my finances into spreadsheet or just web browse using the pc that is connected to the tv. Those things are just awkward to do on a pc connected to a tv. I already have a tablet and laptop I use for those types of things.
Video streaming ? Amazon Instant Video doesnt even stream in hd on pc. Netflix ? You'd need to use a mouse for navigating the app and the videos themselves. No thanks. Not when there are better devices for these purposes that I already own.
And the convenience factor of consoles has pcs beat hands down for me. I can grab my ds4, press the playstation button, the ps4 turns on and the receiver and tv also turn on automatically thanks to hdmi-cec. Doesnt get anymore convenient than that for me.

 

[Anustart]

Here is a riddle! Does GTA5 get made without consoles? Performance does not matter all that much as long as you can sell 45 million copies of a game at full price.

I love it.

And to add on to this, gta v on pc looks super gamey and non cinematic. Ruins the experience.

 

[Kinthalis]

I love it.

And to add on to this, gta v on pc looks super gamey and non cinematic. Ruins the experience.

It's like watching a bad soap opera! Quit playing 5 minutes in.

 

[Mudcrab]

I love it.

And to add on to this, gta v on pc looks super gamey and non cinematic. Ruins the experience.

Agreed. It looks like Benny Hill.

 

[Dredd97]

It's like watching a bad soap opera! Quit playing 5 minutes in.

I thought you'd quit this thread or are you back just to shit it up as usual?

 

[Seanspeed]

I thought you'd quit this thread or are you back just to shit it up as usual?

You cant really shit up shit.

 

[Salsa]

 

[Etnos]

The PS4 has a weak ass netbook processor and a mid-lowend GPU from 2012.

They really cut corners this time around.

it really is that simple

BTW Core i3 CPU have a bad rap, but they are acutally pretty competent CPUs. Their single core performance is better than anything AMD does, they are basically Core i5 with less cores.

 

[Dredd97]

You cant really shit up shit.

true, mods need to lock this one before it gets even more out of hand...

 

[BennyBlanco]

I just want to say I'm so glad I passed on this twice. Rockstar brought the heat with this PC port. Very impressed with how well this performs.

Ps4/xbone CPU is a bottleneck that will plague them the rest of the gen. Especially with how fast PC tech is evolving, the gap will only get more dramatic in the next few years. Pascal and Skylake look so promising.

 

[FATALITY]

port begging... i mean buy pc begging threads are the best

 

[Ambition]

port begging... i mean buy pc begging threads are the best

huh?

 

[eso76]

According to the number of posts in gtav PC thread of people who couldn't launch the game, whose game kept crashing on the same mission, game encountering errors and needing to be closed etc. I'd say there's still good reasons to own a console, but yeah they have grown much thinner.

 

[Kinthalis]

I thought you'd quit this thread or are you back just to shit it up as usual?

Lol, who's shitting it up again?

 

[Distresssss]

According to the number of posts in gtav PC thread of people who couldn't launch the game, whose game kept crashing on the same mission, game encountering errors and needing to be closed etc. I'd say there's still good reasons to own a console, but yeah they have grown much thinner.

Like being able to play Driveclub or Master Chief Collection?

 

[viveks86]

The RAM reservation will be unlocked, definitely. But i am very much doubting that anything CPU core wise will be unlocked. Considering how many features need to be added to the OS, who knows how much core usage they might need in the future for that.

There's always room for optimizations. Does the console really need 2 cores reserved for background operations while the game is running? I highly doubt it. I think Sony is being conservative for now and we will see better optimization in the future.

 

[Donnie]

Not sure why people ever thought Jaguar cores were anything like the performance of even lower to mid range PC parts, they aren't. They're tiny little low power consumption cores. I have a really compact media PC running 4 of them at 2.1Ghz. Perfect for great media playback in a tiny case with little to no cooling required (entire system uses around 30w), but not great for gaming.

 

[Caayn]

Sony/MS dun goofd when they decided to go with AMD processors. I don't mind their GPUs, but when I am helping people pick PC parts, I don't even look at AMD's offerings since Intel outclassed them in every way.

As others said they didn't exactly had a choice for what they wanted. They could've clocked the cores a bit higher sure.

AMD has stronger cores, Piledriver outclasses Jaguar but at the cost of power consumption.

 

[LCGeek]

I'd like to know which settings are being used on PS4.
Even more so I'd like Rockstar to patch all the damn stuttering issues.

i5 2500K @ 4.3GHz, 16GB RAM, Win 8.1, GTX 970.
Get great framerates with most settings on max at 1080p while using FXAA(80fps avg maybe, 47 min), but there's input stuttering (If I don't use vsync the menu screen will lag like crazy and the cpu and gpu load tanks to 0%, but if I return to the game it's fluid again) and slight constant rendering stuttering.
If mouse input type isn't set to direct input the mouse movement stutters in-game.

If I however turn vsync on the menu screen is fine. Although the game reports a VRAM usage of 2.8GB while Afterbuner reports 3.2GB VRAM being used.
Nothing wrong with the driver installation. Tried removing them with DDU and testing both 350.12 and 347.88. Same thing. No other games behave like this I might add.
Not overheating issues. Tried all levels of values for the game settings. No difference except for the framerate. i/o issue caused by my mouse/keyboard? Tried running it without the Steam overlay or Afterburner as well to rule those out.

Gamepad support is also broken in pc port. If you don't use any acceleration the camera won't move at all even with max sensitivity. On PS4 you could turn acceleration off and still get it to move properly.

So many delays and so many issues. Steam forum is full of the same reports.
Very disappointed so far.

Using 8 is a reason why we see those problems. Windows 8 is worse than windows 7 when it comes to dpc latency which one of the only way to track such an issue. Most stutter issues are OS/Bios inherent not necessarily your hardware unless it's garbage. Gonna make a post in the GTA5 peformance thread on the issue.

The game is not best atm. The launcher sucks cpu cycles depending on various versions, there are also memory leaks and amd users don't get full cpu utilization on top of DX11 drivers being shit compared to nvidia users. We have a solid foundation to work from but rockstar is not at fault for some of those problems.

 

[Delusibeta]

I love threads started by junior members, they're always hilarious.

 

[Randam]

As others said they didn't exactly had a choice for what they wanted. They could've clocked the cores a bit higher sure.

AMD has stronger cores, Piledriver outclasses Jaguar but at the cost of power consumption.

And aren't AMD's apus pretty good?

 

[perfectsil]

Here is a riddle! Does GTA5 get made without consoles? Performance does not matter all that much as long as you can sell 45 million copies of a game at full price.

without consoles, people will play games on other platforms, they are not going to stop playing video games. They will play games on their smartphones, tablets, streaming services , "even" PCs, and video game companies will make games on platforms people play games on. people at Naughty Dog or 343 or Rockstar are not going to flip burgers if there are no more consoles.