Support NeoGAF

[royalan]

There is a real problem with out nation's police force. A rot that has gotten into the core. Our police force is broken, and we should be embarrassed by it.

It's not even that this man was violet and may have given the officers a genuine fear for their safety. It's that two trained officers were apparently so easily overwhelmed by a 22-year-old mentally handicapped guy that they felt their only salvation, their only option, was to shoot him dead.

Then again, we've seen cops go to great lengths to keep from resorting to guns with other dangerous assailants in the past. Wonder what the difference was here.

The shit posts are because it wouldn't matter if the person pulled a gun and pointed it at the cops, these people would claim they should have shot it out of his hands. Some people are just looking for any reason to bitch about the police.

A fucking guy beats a woman and robs her, then brutally beats on two cops for 5 minutes, sending both of them to the hospital, but yeah they should have just "retreated" or "talked him down" . GTFO with that nonsense. At least if people are going to do the whole police are the devil thing, pick your battles better. Every time you guys whine about some criminal dying in the act of committing a crime your sympathy angle goes right out the window. No one cares that some dude who assaulted three people got shot and killed by the police other than the born to be outraged brigade, inflammatory Op or not.

Is this something that you believe has been happening a lot these days? People are whining about criminals, going for the sympathy angle?

 

[TarNaru33]

It's done here in Finland, no bystanders killed ever, full stop.

Also, considering the ridiculous, unaimed fusillades often fired by American cops, warning shots are nothing.

Yes and how many of these warning shots are done per year? Come on, don't be silly with your comparisons.

 

[Nappuccino]

Yes and how many of these warning shots are done per year? Come on, don't be silly with your comparisons.

So . . . officer guns should be loaded with 1 blank in the chamber so they can safely make warning shots?

 

[Jacksinthe]

I'm torn on this to a degree. On one hand I believe use of force against an individual beating you over the head with a solid object is justified. On the other hand use of deadly force should have been avoided.

I used to bounce at bars and clubs when I was younger. I have been blindsided with a bottle (no, they dont break like in the movies and it hurts like a motherfucker), pepper sprayed for refusing entrance to an individual without an ID (because that is a logical reaction when IDs are required for age verification), had stools swung against me, etc. Basically anything that can be used as a weapon was used. In every situation I came out on top, including not being able to see shit after being pepper sprayed. I have extensive training in martial arts, not that that makes me a bad ass, but I can easily hold my own against just about anyone with any weapon other than a gun.

If I can restrain a dude jacked out on coke who's been drinking screwdrivers all night using a stool on me like he's a lion trainer triple my size, I'm sure cops in the US can learn to handle themselves against unarmed individuals. A gun is never a first course of action. Not being blindsided and knowing the situation you are walking into should have given the officers the upper hand, easily. Having zero defenses and letting an individual remove a personal effect from you to use as a weapon is unacceptable. Then drawing your gun because you apparently are unprepared to do anything fucking else? Jesus Christ.

You don't need to study several martial arts for years to learn amazing CQC techniques to subdue someone.

A huge problem is also from lack of repetitive training on a regular basis. Once you get the badge you aren't in training every day. You aren't keeping your tools sharp you lose your ability to focus. 25+ years training for me and I still, to this day, train the basics. And I'm literally talking about low level shit. Continued training while on the force is needed. Stay in shape, stay sharp in mind and body and everything will be fine.

I know there are a lot of cops who actually are able to take people into custody without killing them, but even just ONE time use of deadly force in a situation with an unarmed individual is unacceptable, IMO. There's no excuse for letting an individual get the upper hand on you when you KNOW what you are walking into, to a degree.

Cops these days are too quick to pull their weapon.

 

[jakonovski]

Yes and how many of these warning shots are done per year? Come on, don't be silly with your comparisons.

Why do I get the feeling that the only "proper" way here is the one where people constantly get gunned down? There's such huge resistance from some to any change.

edit: and to answer you directly, the point was made by me that US police already engage in practices far more reckless and dangerous than warning shots. So we have instances of warning shots working, as well as other worse practices. There is no danger-based argument to be made on behalf of American police.

 

[BradC00]

Why do I get the feeling that the only "proper" way here is the one where people constantly get gunned down? There's such huge resistance from some to any change.

there is a huge difference in crime in the US compared to Finland.

 

[jakonovski]

there is a huge difference in crime in the US compared to Finland.

Have you ever considered that perhaps police behavior has something to do with how things are?

 

[PreFire]

Just another dickhead cop with an itchy trigger finger. Criminal or not, you took a life away from a family who probably loved that young man.

Nypd are equipped with a nightstick, pepper spray, taser, police academy hand to hand combat and are supposed to know how to react under pressure.

The guy had a handheld police radio lol.. Are you fucking kidding me? You put a bullet in the dude?

Taser him, beat him with your stick to defend yourself.. And bring him down. You don't shoot a dude who's obviously not threatening your life with a plastic police radio that broke anyway.

I seriously don't trust most of those bastards with a gun. I can't count how many times I've been pulled over for absolutely no fucking reason here in NYC, with these fucking cops aiming their pistols at my face... Asking for my ID. Yea right, like I'm going to reach for that shit.

Anyone who thinks the kill was justified is insane. Too many unarmed people getting shot and killed by the police.. I don't care if the guy attacks the officer with a stapler, or something small and non-lethal.. He doesn't deserve to be shot and killed. End of story.

Just because the guy is scum, and beat down a woman (idc if he killed her, if he's not armed with a deadly weapon then deadly force is not required)

At the end of the day, a man is dead by the hands of another. A professional, a person of authority.

And I respect real cops who do real police work. Homicide, burglary, special crimes. Not fucking patrolmen with itchy trigger fingers feeling salty because they haven't been promoted for doing shit work, arresting people for turnstile jumping lol

I don't think anyone here hates good police who do good police work. We just see too many unarmed people getting shot and killed or strangled by the people who are supposed to "protect and serve"

I've never seen the police in NYC and felt safe. It's always "damn, is he going to fuck with me right now?" The bastards wouldn't even help me get into my car after my girl locked the keys inside. They said "I'm sorry but if we mess something up you can sue us" .. It's 3am you fucks and I'm ASKING for your assistance. Same with flat tires being repaired on a dangerous road they just speed right past you. Surely it's not in their job description but my point is they aren't here to be heroes..

Nypd, nyc biggest gang

 

[Kill3r7]

It's done here in Finland, no bystanders killed ever, full stop.

Also, considering the ridiculous, unaimed fusillades often fired by American cops, warning shots are nothing.

The idea of warning shots or shooting to injure is ridiculous. It might work in Finland but I assure you that it would be a disaster in the US. A cop should never pull his/her gun unless they intend to kill. Firing your weapon should be your last resort not a normal practice.

 

[BradC00]

Have you ever considered that perhaps police behavior has something to do with how things are?

it has more to do with poverty and culture then police being dicks.

 

[jakonovski]

it has more to do with poverty and culture then police being dicks.

Poverty and culture compel cops to kill people? How does the mechanism work?

The idea of warning shots or shooting to injure is ridiculous. It might work in Finland but I assure you that it would be a disaster in the US. A cop should never pull his/her gun unless they intend to kill. Firing your weapon should be your last resort not a normal practice.

How would you even know it would be a disaster? I know American police already is a disaster but it's not intrinsically so I hope.

 

[BradC00]

Poverty and culture compel cops to kill people? How does the mechanism work?

i said

there is a huge difference in crime in the US compared to Finland.

you said

Have you ever considered that perhaps police behavior has something to do with how things are?

which means you are blaming the police for how much crime there is. police being dicks doesn't make billy shoot bobby.

 

[jakonovski]

We're talking police shooting disproportionately many people. I think you'll have a hard time explaining why police attitudes aren't a major part of it.

 

[Kill3r7]

Poverty and culture compel cops to kill people? How does the mechanism work?



How would you even know it would be a disaster? I know American police already is a disaster but it's not intrinsically so I hope.

Because our police do a bang up job now when using ones weapon is the last resort. If they are allowed to use it all the time to fire warning shots and as a tool to deter people then you better believe it will be a disaster.

 

[jakonovski]

Because our police do a bang up job now when using ones weapon is the last resort. If they are allowed to use it all the time to fire warning shots and as a tool to deter people then you better believe it will be a disaster.

Welp.

 

[Two Words]

And the mentally ill can be taken down in non-lethal means. Thats common (or at least expected) in high dependancy institutions.

They shouldn't have resorted to guns. Inappropriate use of force.

Okay, so you have a mentally ill person on top of you, bashing your head with a radio hard enough to break it. What do you do?

 

[Horsemama1956]

Yeah I don't really put this one with some of the other incidents if there was a violent confrontation. Should have just turned himself in, or not beat someone up.

He didn't deserve to die, but it is what it is.

 

[BradC00]

We're talking police shooting disproportionately many people. I think you'll have a hard time explaining why police attitudes aren't a major part of it.

i'm talking about how ridiculous it is to compare the US to Finland. One is a country built on violence with social and economic problems while the other stays inside for 7 months a year drinking hot chocolate.

of course cops attitude has something to do with it. there's a reason why these cops are quick to pull the trigger.

 

[TarNaru33]

So . . . officer guns should be loaded with 1 blank in the chamber so they can safely make warning shots?

Works in theory, but it can cause an issue if an officer do need to take a lethal shot quickly, when his first shot is a blank... All in all, personally I would be okay with that.

Why do I get the feeling that the only "proper" way here is the one where people constantly get gunned down? There's such huge resistance from some to any change.

No one here is debating an increase of police training and requirements, just in reality this would also mean an increase in police budget, which is not politically feasible at this current time exception on a local/state level. To decrease this even further a gun ban would need to be done, so that way cops don't feel the need to be "hands on gun" when approaching a car they stopped for speeding. This requires an amendment change or different interpretation, basically, its untouchable.

Then many people generalize when talking about this issue, which throws the critique of police to the side as many (including me) will focus on this.

Another issue is that people here seem to think a radio to your head won't do severe damage and call this unjustified. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I think it could of been better handled without death, but people need to be more realistic. (not addressed to you) If someone is beating you with a radio on your head and you don't consider that them trying to kill you, then you should probably rethink that. They don't need to be trying to kill you, for that to happen, or brain damage.

It is the arguments used that many seem to take issue with and the line of when something is justified for lethal force.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

which means you are blaming the police for how much crime there is. police being dicks doesn't make billy shoot bobby.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

The US has had a very, very long history of plundering its people systemically. Namely towards minorities, specifically African Americans. Law enforcement pushing it harder than most industries (though housing and the prison system are also doing a number).

Hell, it's practically Reagan's legacy (War on Drugs)

 

[Two Words]

Just another dickhead cop with an itchy trigger finger. Criminal or not, you took a life away from a family who probably loved that young man.

Nypd are equipped with a nightstick, pepper spray, taser, police academy hand to hand combat and are supposed to know how to react under pressure.

The guy had a handheld police radio lol.. Are you fucking kidding me? You put a bullet in the dude?

Taser him, beat him with your stick to defend yourself.. And bring him down. You don't shoot a dude who's obviously not threatening your life with a plastic police radio that broke anyway.

I seriously don't trust most of those bastards with a gun. I can't count how many times I've been pulled over for absolutely no fucking reason here in NYC, with these fucking cops aiming their pistols at my face... Asking for my ID. Yea right, like I'm going to reach for that shit.

Anyone who thinks the kill was justified is insane. Too many unarmed people getting shot and killed by the police.. I don't care if the guy attacks the officer with a stapler, or something small and non-lethal.. He doesn't deserve to be shot and killed. End of story.

Just because the guy is scum, and beat down a woman (idc if he killed her, if he's not armed with a deadly weapon then deadly force is not required)

At the end of the day, a man is dead by the hands of another. A professional, a person of authority.

And I respect real cops who do real police work. Homicide, burglary, special crimes. Not fucking patrolmen with itchy trigger fingers feeling salty because they haven't been promoted for doing shit work, arresting people for turnstile jumping lol

I don't think anyone here hates good police who do good police work. We just see too many unarmed people getting shot and killed or strangled by the people who are supposed to "protect and serve"

I've never seen the police in NYC and felt safe. It's always "damn, is he going to fuck with me right now?" The bastards wouldn't even help me get into my car after my girl locked the keys inside. They said "I'm sorry but if we mess something up you can sue us" .. It's 3am you fucks and I'm ASKING for your assistance. Same with flat tires being repaired on a dangerous road they just speed right past you. Surely it's not in their job description but my point is they aren't here to be heroes..

Nypd, nyc biggest gang

This is taking it to an extreme. I agree about your sentiment about police brutality, but you simply cannot expect ANY person to finely weigh the odds on what force to use when a person is actively beating you. You make it sound like being beat with a radio is nothing. I doubt you'd be willing to let that be experimented on your head though, right? If I had a gun and was not a cop and was in the same situation, I would not hesitate to shoot. Cops aren't supposed to be super judo soldiers. They can be beaten and they can be killed just like the rest of us. You can't act like every shooting by the police is an unjustified one. There are plenty of unjustified ones to point it, so we don't need to point out justified cases like these.

 

[BradC00]

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

The US has had a very, very long history of plundering its people systemically. Namely towards minorities, specifically African Americans. Law enforcement pushing it harder than most industries (though housing and the prison system are also doing a number).

Hell, it's practically Reagan's legacy (War on Drugs)

i already said it was a poverty issue.

 

[PreFire]

This is taking it to an extreme. I agree about your sentiment about police brutality, but you simply cannot expect ANY person to finely weigh the odds on what force to use when a person is actively beating you. You make it sound like being beat with a radio is nothing. I doubt you'd be willing to let that be experimented on your head though, right? If I had a gun and was not a cop and was in the same situation, I would not hesitate to shoot. Cops aren't supposed to be super judo soldiers. They can be beaten and they can be killed just like the rest of us. You can't act like every shooting by the police is an unjustified one. There are plenty of unjustified ones to point it, so we don't need to point out justified cases like these.

Yeah but that's the difference. You with a gun isn't the same as a trained cop with one. You'd think that under those situations they would react in a professional way instead of panicking like a noob and shooting the dude.

The cop was obviously scared for his life and made a fucked up judgement call. Maybe he did the world a favor, maybe that dude would have killed someone later in life.. But given the facts and the shit that's been happening with police shooting unarmed people, I have to bring it up and make it a little extreme.

This shit isn't going to change any time soon. I know cops who go out drinking, off duty, with their pistols on them. I've seen them play around with them while drunk and I've seen dudes pull out their pistols on people for no reason, a simple argument and you pull your gun out?

Believe it or not, a lot of these scumbags feel a power trip with that badge pinned to their shirts and that cold steel on their waist.

I just hate guns in general, had too many close friends shot and killed (not by cops), in their 20s.. And no they didn't provoke it.

 

[royalan]

This is taking it to an extreme. I agree about your sentiment about police brutality, but you simply cannot expect ANY person to finely weigh the odds on what force to use when a person is actively beating you. You make it sound like being beat with a radio is nothing. I doubt you'd be willing to let that be experimented on your head though, right? If I had a gun and was not a cop and was in the same situation, I would not hesitate to shoot. Cops aren't supposed to be super judo soldiers. They can be beaten and they can be killed just like the rest of us. You can't act like every shooting by the police is an unjustified one. There are plenty of unjustified ones to point it, so we don't need to point out justified cases like these.

I'm more concerned about what it says about the competency of our police forces when two trained officers armed with batons, tasers, and their trained skills were able to be so thoroughly trounced by a 22-year-old mentally ill man who had to grab one of their radios in order to be considered armed. That this one man was so able to make these two officers fear for their lives that their guns were considered the only option to them. Were the injuries they sustained that great? Not according to the doctors that examined them.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

i already said it was a poverty issue.

Yeah, and the police have a hand in perpetuating said poverty. So I'd say they are helping make an environment that causes more crime.

 

[SyNapSe]

I'm torn on this to a degree. On one hand I believe use of force against an individual beating you over the head with a solid object is justified. On the other hand use of deadly force should have been avoided.

It says the encounter was 5+ minutes and one of the officers had a dislocated shoulder (I assume from trying to restrain him) so they clearly had trouble. The report doesn't say how long the officers have served but I assume that even if one was a rookie the other was experienced. Possibly making 100's or 1000's of arrests in his carrer. I also assume that he hasn't been in any other shootings or I imagine that would have been highlighted.

I guess I'm saying this is likely an outlier. Requiring higher standards for our police force likely means increasing pay to attract better candidates which means raising taxes and I don't think there is a lot of political will for doing so. At least not if the example is a guy who robbed and beat a female acquaintance and then attacked police upon attempt to arrest him.

I'm far more worried about our police force killing people who've surrendered or aren't a threat to the officer

 

[TarNaru33]

It says the encounter was 5+ minutes and one of the officers had a dislocated shoulder (I assume from trying to restrain him) so they clearly had trouble. The report doesn't say how long the officers have served but I assume that even if one was a rookie the other was experienced. Possibly making 100's or 1000's of arrests in his carrer. I also assume that he hasn't been in any other shootings or I imagine that would have been highlighted.

I guess I'm saying this is likely an outlier. Requiring higher standards for our police force likely means increasing pay to attract better candidates which means raising taxes and I don't think there is a lot of political will for doing so. At least not if the example is a guy who robbed and beat a female acquaintance and then attacked police upon attempt to arrest him.

I'm far more worried about our police force killing people who've surrendered or aren't a threat to the officer

This is my belief on this subject also. No one is going to care if some "deranged lunatic" or criminal was killed by police officer in "gray" scenarios like these. At least not enough to get attention for reform.

 

[royalan]

This is my belief on this subject also. No one is going to care if some "deranged lunatic" or criminal was killed by police officer in "gray" scenarios like these. At least not enough to get attention for reform.

As we've seen time and time again over the last 2 - 3 years, people don't care when it's an innocent, unarmed black man who's already been apprehended. You guys are waiting for incidents that "look better" but we've had those. The public still doesn't give a single, solitary shit. So why expect those who are outraged to care about the difference?

There is a real, systemic problem with our police force, and a huge part of the problem is that we've empowered them to look at their guns as the first line of defense. In many cases, we've empowered them to resort to their guns before they've even attempted using their words. It doesn't matter if the cops are dealing with a compliant person standing with their hands up, or a enraged person fighting against them; it's still a problem either way.

 

[Kin5290]

You realize there is a solution to this problem, right? One that is used in the majority of the civilized world.

Eh? The majority of the civilized world arms its cops, including Sweden. (To address that one guy, the reason why those Swedish cops didn't pull their guns is because they didn't have their guns, being on vacation in a foreign country.)

 

[FrenchToastDisciple]

Seems like the whole situation was handled completely incompetently by the police, even if , in this case at least, I don't find their behavior necessarily criminal.

 

[AlimNassor]

I don't fucking care if he was mike tyson, these Police just murdered an unarmed man. Fuck off with that he "could have been a threat", unless he had a fucking pistol and was firing at them the police had no right to shoot him. Theres no excuse for this, 2 men are sent to the hospital and 1 man is dead? How can 2 men not restrain 1 person? As posted before people get assaulted everyday as part of their job and not once do you see them pull out a gun and blow the guy away.

if say a bouncer at a night club did that he'd be going to jail. Why are the Police above the law?

 

[lednerg]

The violent crime rate in this country is the lowest it's been since the 50's. The funds that are currently spent on crazy military equipment and tanks should be diverted to training (with an emphasis on de-escalation), salary raises, and hiring. Of course that's not going to happen since there's no money in it for the arms industry, but it's nice to dream.

 

[Beefy]

I get the police men were getting hit with the radio. I get that the person was violent and had a past. I also get he was mentally ill so some of his actions may not be his fault. I don't get why American cops can so easily pull a trigger and kill a guy.

 

[jchap]

The violent crime rate in this country is the lowest it's been since the 50's. The funds that are currently spent on crazy military equipment and tanks should be diverted to training (with an emphasis on de-escalation), salary raises, and hiring. Of course that's not going to happen since there's no money in it for the arms industry, but it's nice to dream.

Most of that crazy equipment isn't purchased for the police its leftover gear from the recent wars.

 

[TarNaru33]

As we've seen time and time again over the last 2 - 3 years, people don't care when it's an innocent, unarmed black man who's already been apprehended. You guys are waiting for incidents that "look better" but we've had those. The public still doesn't give a single, solitary shit. So why expect those who are outraged to care about the difference?

There is a real, systemic problem with our police force, and a huge part of the problem is that we've empowered them to look at their guns as the first line of defense. In many cases, we've empowered them to resort to their guns before they've even attempted using their words. It doesn't matter if the cops are dealing with a compliant person standing with their hands up, or a enraged person fighting against them; it's still a problem either way.

I agree with all of that, exception of the "public not giving a shit". There are those who care, just not enough to get involved. It is the same mentality of bystanders when watching 2 people fight or 1 person getting beat on by multiple assailants. People just want to continue to their everyday life. I will be the first to admit I am one of those people. I debate on here about it, but IRL, I don't do anything about it because my life needs to be worked on first.

That is why things like this do need to keep appearing on media and gain public attention, however, it doesn't help when the critics get hardened and make blanket statements. It just hardens the heart of the person that is defending because they see it as an attack.

I don't believe the problem is "systemic" except on the racial issue, considering there are over 1 million police and 14 million arrests a year, but it is indeed at an unacceptable level.

U.S justice system needs a revamp, but even I am not completely sure in my heart where things should lie. Should a person who murder their wife, child, etc. be allowed rehabilitation? Should rape sentences be lower? These and the issue that we are talking about now are things that will take decades to change and refine.

I get the police men were getting hit with the radio. I get that the person was violent and had a past. I also get he was mentally ill so some of his actions may not be his fault. I don't get why American cops can so easily pull a trigger and kill a guy.

It is pretty easy for those that do choose to do so. It boils down to a "them or me" mentality and when that occurs, then preemptive strike is the best option. Kill/injury them before they do so to you. It is unfortunate that people like this can easily get past the screening and still maintain such thoughts after training.

Which is why U.S needs to hammer ethics and the knowledge that lethal force should be the last resort, into the police officers they recruit. Like we said though, this requires a larger budget, which isn't likely to happen in this political climate.

 

[Amir0x]

You sound ridiculous. Who are you to say when someone's life is in danger enough to use lethal force?

God forbid you find yourself being beaten on the head with a hard instrument, only to have some idiot standing close by screaming: "It ain't that bad, you'll be ok! Don't worry, if he knocks you out he certainly won't take your gun!"

No, I just value a human life. You almost certainly won't die getting hit on the head with a radio (or rather, statistically your odds are quite low), even if I believed the police's story - which I don't for a second, since Police lie about virtually every incident involving excessive force. But you stand a fucking AMAZING chance at dying if you get shot.

You see this country has you and so many others so conditioned about the reprehensible behavior of newly militarized police that you actually think this shit is normal. In most other developed nations, police brutality and deaths from police are a laughable fraction what they are in the states - even when we calculate per capita, so don't use the population argument. Why? Because they are not trained to be power tripping assholes incapable of empathy and compassion where lethal force is just the name of the game. There are about a zillion other ways to stop a confrontation wherein some guy is trying to hit you with an object, and almost all of them do not end with someone dead. And yet you believe somehow lethal force might be warranted. That this is even part of a conversation is insane. That's how far from reality the US has drifted. That of ALL the countries in the world that have comically superior records on this score than us, somehow we're the only country that is consistently required to go down this road.

We don't even need to touch the indisputable institutional racism that often fuels this violence.

Attitudes such as this is why we have the problem we do in this country with police. The justice system is broke, and the way we train police is disgustingly broken, and the way we arm police is horrifying. It's all broke. It's not even up for debate - statistics factually support this argument and the only thing the "other side" has is how little they actually want to put in the effort to save more lives. Because it might cost money to wear cameras on all officers! Because police might feel like they're not trusted when they're given training which suggests they're doing shit wrong! Where if we pretend the code of blue silence and the institutional racism doesn't exist, maybe it will go away!

 

[Oxn]

So wer're going to get a story everytime a Police shoots someone arent we?

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Didn't they have batons with them? With proper training two men with batons should be able to subdue one guy. If not, bring more people. Going in they must have known he could have turned violent so it's not like it came out of nowhere. They may have been justified to shoot in the end but something went wrong to let it get to that point.

 

[Log4Girlz]

No, I just value a human life. You almost certainly won't die getting hit on the head with a radio (or rather, statistically your odds are quite low), even if I believed the police's story - which I don't for a second, since Police lie about virtually every incident involving excessive force. But you stand a fucking AMAZING chance at dying if you get shot.

You see this country has you and so many others so conditioned about the reprehensible behavior of newly militarized police that you actually think this shit is normal. In most other developed nations, police brutality and deaths from police are a laughable fraction what they are in the states - even when we calculate per capita, so don't use the population argument. Why? Because they are not trained to be power tripping assholes incapable of empathy and compassion where lethal force is just the name of the game. There are about a zillion other ways to stop a confrontation wherein some guy is trying to hit you with an object, and almost all of them do not end with someone dead. And yet you believe somehow lethal force might be warranted. That this is even part of a conversation is insane. That's how far from reality the US has drifted. That of ALL the countries in the world that have comically superior records on this score than us, somehow we're the only country that is consistently required to go down this road.

We don't even need to touch the indisputable institutional racism that often fuels this violence.

Attitudes such as this is why we have the problem we do in this country with police. The justice system is broke, and the way we train police is disgustingly broken, and the way we arm police is horrifying. It's all broke. It's not even up for debate - statistics factually support this argument and the only thing the "other side" has is how little they actually want to put in the effort to save more lives. Because it might cost money to wear cameras on all officers! Because police might feel like they're not trusted when they're given training which suggests they're doing shit wrong! Where if we pretend the code of blue silence and the institutional racism doesn't exist, maybe it will go away!

But in the US practically everyone is carrying guns. This guy had a radio. .. how did you expect two armed officers to respond? Oh wait...

 

[MWS Natural]

In America we only shoot to kill, and we shoot for many reasons, like running away, or quick sudden movements. Kind of like an aggressive dog. If a cop stops you, don't look him in the eyes, just let him sniff your crotch and he'll eventually leave you alone.


sometimes a man attacks you with a broken walkie talkie. sometimes you gotta shoot that man. honestly anything in your hands more menacing than a pillow and you're dead walking.

Less than a pillow? Not even, so many have gotten killed from the BELIEF that there was a weapon in their hand when it was nothing but the cowardly officers imagination.

 

[jond76]

No, I just value a human life. You almost certainly won't die getting hit on the head with a radio (or rather, statistically your odds are quite low), even if I believed the police's story - which I don't for a second, since Police lie about virtually every incident involving excessive force. But you stand a fucking AMAZING chance at dying if you get shot.

You see this country has you and so many others so conditioned about the reprehensible behavior of newly militarized police that you actually think this shit is normal. In most other developed nations, police brutality and deaths from police are a laughable fraction what they are in the states - even when we calculate per capita, so don't use the population argument. Why? Because they are not trained to be power tripping assholes incapable of empathy and compassion where lethal force is just the name of the game. There are about a zillion other ways to stop a confrontation wherein some guy is trying to hit you with an object, and almost all of them do not end with someone dead. And yet you believe somehow lethal force might be warranted. That this is even part of a conversation is insane. That's how far from reality the US has drifted. That of ALL the countries in the world that have comically superior records on this score than us, somehow we're the only country that is consistently required to go down this road.

We don't even need to touch the indisputable institutional racism that often fuels this violence.

Attitudes such as this is why we have the problem we do in this country with police. The justice system is broke, and the way we train police is disgustingly broken, and the way we arm police is horrifying. It's all broke. It's not even up for debate - statistics factually support this argument and the only thing the "other side" has is how little they actually want to put in the effort to save more lives. Because it might cost money to wear cameras on all officers! Because police might feel like they're not trusted when they're given training which suggests they're doing shit wrong! Where if we pretend the code of blue silence and the institutional racism doesn't exist, maybe it will go away!

Please don't presume that I've been conditioned to anything. You don't know me. I value life too. I will also value MY life more than that of the guy that is beating me with a radio.

The problem is that while there have been more publicized cases of excessive force recently, the people that take up the cause will try to shoe horn any use of force to fit their narrative. All that does is devalue the relevant complaint.

Some people here don't live in reality. Take that GIF of the Russian boxer laying those two guys out at the club. Everyone loves that one. It's also very effective to demonstrating that one good hit can knock you out. And now you want me to argue that these cops that were being beaten for minutes had better come up with PC alternative to save themselves because someone behind a keyboard is deeming it excessive days after the fact? No.

Pick your battles better.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

The Use Of Force Continuum 2015

Struggles hard -- gets shot immediately
Struggles weakly -- gets beaten up and dies later
Doesn't struggle -- maybe survives
Arrested, in cuffs, laying on their back -- gun shot to the back
Running away -- gunshot to the back
White family continually charges and assaults multiple police officers -- hold your fire, just going our jobs
Happy dog -- shoot, then get a lawyer for incoming outrage

I'll add a few things

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

So wer're going to get a story everytime a Police shoots someone arent we?

It's probably something we should get a report on. Does that not cross your threshold?

Like, how do we not know how many people die at the hands of the police?

 

[Amir0x]

Please don't presume that I've been conditioned to anything. You don't know me. I value life too. I will also value MY life more than that of the guy that is beating me with a radio.

The problem is that while there have been more publicized cases of excessive force recently, the people that take up the cause will try to shoe horn any use of force to fit their narrative. All that does is devalue the relevant complaint.

And now you want me to argue that these cops that were being beaten for minutes had better come up with PC alternative to save themselves because someone behind a keyboard is deeming it excessive days after the fact? No.

Pick your battles better.

Did you even make a remote attempt to grasp what was written? I'm genuinely not trying to be condescending here, but you might as well have responded to a wall for how much here actually demonstrates even a tangential understanding of what was being raised.

Again, there are about a zillion ways to resolve a situation wherein some guy is hitting you without utilizing lethal force. Countries all around the world do it successfully, and that is why police deaths and deaths from police are a sliver, a fraction of what they are in the United States per capita. And yet you are conditioned - sorry if you don't like that word, but your words continue to demonstrate the truth of the matter - to believe that the only option here is to either use lethal force or not question the police on their use of lethal force.

Because somehow, the United States is the only first world country on the planet that requires the use of lethal force in this manner and refuses to train their police in the zillion zillion alternative ways to solve issues like this. Apparently because the United States has some form of super criminal, built through years of genetic modification, horrors by which only gods or superheroes could conceivably take down without shoving a gun in their face and blowing their brains across the railing?

You do not value life, or at least not near at the same amount as me and others in countries that do not explicitly endorse horrific levels of pathetic reactionary lethal force in hundreds of thousands of scenarios where it could be avoided. Unless you can explain why the United States is somehow special in its requirement to use lethal force, then you have no leg to stand on. Because it doesn't exist in a vacuum, and tons of other countries have demonstrated that such lethal force is not necessary. For getting hit on the head with a radio? Are you fucking kidding me?

But that's the hallway you've stuck yourself in. You cannot even conceive of an alternative, because violence has been inbred into the very culture of this fucked up society to the point where your peripheral vision has been blighted to alternatives.

 

[BajiBoxer]

If you fight with an unarmed guy for minutes with superior numbers and your choice ends up being shoot or get beaten to death with your own walkie talkie, it sounds like you shouldn't be a cop.

So many people with badges seem to lack the physical or mental ability to do their jobs even if they aren't intentionally mallicious.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

There's no way you can know this. And you'd have to compare it to other countries that let their cops carry guns.

Actually it would be interesting to see the stats on how often police in different countries use their gun.

Which would suggest that carrying the guns isn't a problem in itself? I don't believe that it's fair to ask for that specific comparison when it isnt necessary to consider that for my argument.

I said that in most civilised countries this man would not have died and given how eager American police a seem to be to publicly execute citizens for running away or having a toy gun compared to the United Kingdom which does not have this problem and police kill very, very little - there was a thread about this, something to the effect of American police killing more citizens in 2015 than British police in the last 100 years.

If the main difference is that they do not carry guns the my assertion is still correct, you have just identified the reason.

 

[Siegcram]

So we're going to get a story everytime a Police shoots someone arent we?

What a horrible world that would be.

 

[CrocMother]

If you fight with an unarmed guy for minutes with superior numbers and your choice ends up being shoot or get beaten to death with your own walkie talkie, it sounds like you shouldn't be a cop.

So many people with badges seem to lack the physical or mental ability to do their jobs even if they aren't intentionally mallicious.

What sucks is that the worse rep the cops get ("fuck the police" is practically mainstream these days), the less people want to be cops, the quality of your avg. policeman gets shittier, and you've got a vicious cycle.

 

[Two Words]

I'm all for getting on police for abusive tendencies and the corrupt system that supports them, but this is not an example of this. Frankly, I think we are speaking from a point of privilege when we hindsight things like this. Fact is, when you are actively being beaten by somebody, you have a right to defend yourself. It's not your responsibility to ensure that your assailant takes minimal damage to be subdued. A man beating you with a radio can quickly turn into a man reaching for your gun to shoot you. I don't think an officer should have to wait for that to happen to use lethal force if the assailant is clearly showing lethal intent.

 

[royalan]

I'm all for getting on police for abusive tendencies and the corrupt system that supports them, but this is not an example of this. Frankly, I think we are speaking from a point of privilege when we hindsight things like this. Fact is, when you are actively being beaten by somebody, you have a right to defend yourself. It's not your responsibility to ensure that your assailant takes minimal damage to be subdued. A man beating you with a radio can quickly turn into a man reaching for your gun to shoot you. I don't think an officer should have to wait for that to happen to use lethal force if the assailant is clearly showing lethal intent.

Neither of the cops sustained potentially lethal injuries, according to the doctors who examined them. So how can you be so quick to gauge that his intent was to kill them?