Witcher 3 downgrade arguments in here and nowhere else
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OmegaDL50
Member
Some one claimed there was pop-in a few pages back.
I just want to clarify if they didn't consider the possibility it's not the object transparency thing during combat they were talking about.
When fighting monsters or other enemies. In battle objects such as trees, rocks, and other things that would block the players view basically disappear. it is to improve visibility while in combat so your view is not obstructed by bushes and trees etc.
When moving away from objects they will return to visibility.
Just pointing out what they call pop-in or claim to be pop-in isn't actually a graphical defect that some games have, but is something as intended by design when in combat.
Unless of course they were talking about some huge mountain just suddenly appearing in far distance while traveling, which I'd say is more the possibility to be labeled under "pop-in" but this is generally atypical for an open world game that doesn't have infinite draw distance to have every single world object rendered at once.
I just want to clarify if they didn't consider the possibility it's not the object transparency thing during combat they were talking about.
When fighting monsters or other enemies. In battle objects such as trees, rocks, and other things that would block the players view basically disappear. it is to improve visibility while in combat so your view is not obstructed by bushes and trees etc.
When moving away from objects they will return to visibility.
Just pointing out what they call pop-in or claim to be pop-in isn't actually a graphical defect that some games have, but is something as intended by design when in combat.
Unless of course they were talking about some huge mountain just suddenly appearing in far distance while traveling, which I'd say is more the possibility to be labeled under "pop-in" but this is generally atypical for an open world game that doesn't have infinite draw distance to have every single world object rendered at once.
dgrdsv
Member
Clipping? What? Sorry but I can't see shit in what seems to be a capture from a Youtube 360p video.
Thing is a lot of games do look better than their early promo materials. There are several examples where the game in question look better now than in the older screenshots. But it doesn't have the same sense of drama if you know what I mean.
plasmawave
Banned
Why are you still bothering to argue?
Obliterator
Member
Out of curiosity, has CDProjekt Red commented at all since this stuff blew up the past 2 days? Or are they keeping quiet?
dgrdsv
Member
Why are you? This thread is hilarious. The Witcher 3 was not downgraded. Several changes to assets are apparent but this alone doesn't prove that this is a downgrade. Assets change during development, tough luck.
Dictator93
Member
Is it the same area to compare with?
Sadly this one sure ain`t one of them. I could probably only count those games with a single hand, aside from indies.
stabiliser
Neo Member
Thank you very much. Now to me that makes all the difference in the world, it looks a lot more like the early material or just like the early material. I really like that look and i wonder why they removed it. Is that a thing that is"difficult" to do? Any chance that we get an option to turn this effect on and off?
Because shit evidence is not a slam dunk?
viveks86
Member
Who knows. It's all guesswork at this point. Regardless of whether they use(d) procedural generation or not, it's pretty clear that the way foliage is being generated has changed dramatically. It can't be purely artistic reasons as the new versions never seem to exhibit the same density as before. They scream 'billboards' 9 times out of 10, which rarely used to be the case earlier. Anyone playing GTA V on PC knows how much foliage density affects performance. May be their older technique could simply not be realized on majority of the target hardware without severely compromising other aspects. For all we know, CDPR has a secret super mega ultra foliage hidden in their ini files that EatChildren will expose so that all our GPUs can melt instantaneously.
Graphical "downgrade" blow up? This has been going on for months now on their forums.
Dictator93
Member
If you are on PC, you can do this yourself partially with reshade or a texture mod for the grass.
All the guessing is making my head spin. Especially since it is said with such conviction and veracity in spite of the lack of good comparable evidence or 1:1 comparisons.
The game using billboards or sprite vegetation is saddening. But it also has to run on PS4 and Xb1. It isn't a PC only game. I will fault CDPR for that any day of the week. And yeah, modding hopefully can alleviate some technical artistic issues people have problems with.
They removed it because heavily directed colour grading is not something that typically works with Dynamic TOD lighting. They admitted their mistake in its use originally.
DarkLordMalik
Member
What makes this worse to me is how they have tried their best to claim that no downgrade has been taken place.
They should straight up just admit that they toned down some of the settings to get their desired result. It's not like there is anything wrong with it. After all, the game was also delayed like two times, which clearly shows that they had trouble with their original vision.
plasmawave
Banned
Yes, and I'm pretty sure changing assets for the worse is the definition of downgrade.
Dictator93
Member
No it isn't. And this is the problem.
GAF using the word with such unspecific connotations makes discussion useless. I would just say the game changed its aesthetic at this point.
Whether it became a technical downgrade is something I will judge (with a thread) when the game comes out. Rather than getting upset at youtube comparison and colour changes for different areas of the same game.
plasmawave
Banned
Sure, it's shit evidence because reason.
What about the village on fire screenshot during night with the missing smoke? Is that shit evidence too?
dgrdsv
Member
So what's better -- red or blue?
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
If people talk about pop-in 99.9% of the time they are referring to geometry and things on the horizon. Always things happening ahead of the player, even if pop-in isn't necessarily the right term. There are a few different things that often get mixed in under the umbrella of "pop-in", for better or worse.
Absolutely. If you're going to do comparisons I expect some intellectual rigour and care to be put in. Posting low quality YT screenshots is not worthy evidence. Once you can get direct capture footage that is like for like then there is something worthwhile to discuss.
Interficium
Banned
Get help.
plasmawave
Banned
Ya, I guess those YT compressions completely removed the smoke from the scene, huh?
This is getting ridiculous.
Anyone that asserts a "downgrade" clearly doesn't have any idea what kind of developer CDPR actually is. For starters, half of those burning building screenies are from a cinematic where the King of the Wild Hunt looks at the camera. Secondly, the game will obviously look different given the change of art style. Third, the hair physics and textures are immensely improved from the 2013-14 footage.
On top of it, you need to consider time of day and setting. If you compare two distinctly different screenies then of course it will look different.
http://giant.gfycat.com/ApprehensiveCompetentIchneumonfly.gif
Geralt's hair is darker and so is the art. On top of it all, there are dirt physics in the gif that aren't present in the final build. Fair enough. But if you compare the actual plantation and grass textures, as well as the lighting, then what you get in the final build is pretty much the same thing.
This looks quite a bit better than what we've been shown, I'll admit. But there are two other factors to consider. One, we haven't seen footage of No Man's Land in the evening, Two, we haven't seen Geralt wearing platemail that would reflect light to that degree. There's no way of knowing how this would look in the final build if the player used the same armor in the same location during the same time of day.
Here's what I want you to do. On May 19th, install the game, go to Novigrad and then do a comparison. You're basically comparing two totally different locations, so for all you know the textures in Novigrad still look as good as they did before, and the textures on that particular building always looked that meh. Awful comparison.
I could pick this argument apart piece by piece but to be honest it's tiresome. CDPR has always been a dev that values quality over all else. The prospect that they'd downgrade a game for console parity is simply laughable. If this game was downgraded from what we were shown, it's only because the early tech demo wasn't feasible as a playable build. Which is absolutely fine.
On top of it, you need to consider time of day and setting. If you compare two distinctly different screenies then of course it will look different.
http://giant.gfycat.com/ApprehensiveCompetentIchneumonfly.gif
Geralt's hair is darker and so is the art. On top of it all, there are dirt physics in the gif that aren't present in the final build. Fair enough. But if you compare the actual plantation and grass textures, as well as the lighting, then what you get in the final build is pretty much the same thing.
This looks quite a bit better than what we've been shown, I'll admit. But there are two other factors to consider. One, we haven't seen footage of No Man's Land in the evening, Two, we haven't seen Geralt wearing platemail that would reflect light to that degree. There's no way of knowing how this would look in the final build if the player used the same armor in the same location during the same time of day.
Here's what I want you to do. On May 19th, install the game, go to Novigrad and then do a comparison. You're basically comparing two totally different locations, so for all you know the textures in Novigrad still look as good as they did before, and the textures on that particular building always looked that meh. Awful comparison.
I could pick this argument apart piece by piece but to be honest it's tiresome. CDPR has always been a dev that values quality over all else. The prospect that they'd downgrade a game for console parity is simply laughable. If this game was downgraded from what we were shown, it's only because the early tech demo wasn't feasible as a playable build. Which is absolutely fine.
bltn
Member
This comparison is so damn stupid and it has been posted a hundred times already. Top is from a village (featured in a trailer nevertheless), which obviously has the assets hand placed, while the other seems to be in the middle of nowhere, making it likely the foliage placed there automatically.
We already know the the numerous clips and screenshots that there's a wide variety of flora placed around the world, yet so many people are arguing about these two small spots. Infuriating.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Yea, this line of "it's compressed! It's not accurate!" is pretty dumb, when a bulk of the downgrade arguments are about foliage, which you can see (compressed or not) that it's clearly not as dense or varied.
I still think the game looks great, and it's a shame that small downgrades are overshadowing how good it looks, but the nonsensical defense is pretty weird.
As would I.
Just want to see fewer knee-jerk reactions and unsupported conclusions and more evidence and sound technical analysis.
Yeah, I agree with both of you guys.
KnockOneOff
Banned
I did think when I watched the game footage it didn't look as good as I remember, but I thought it was just because time has moved on. Guess this explains that then!
Can't believe up till now Ryse is still the only game to make me think next gen! Although AW was impressive
Can't believe up till now Ryse is still the only game to make me think next gen! Although AW was impressive
Yet people are comparing completely different locations. If they cared to do a proper comparison, how about using exactly the same location, under the same conditions.
Supersampling captures and then applying a sharpening filter. I have posted documented examples where supersampling images can make a large difference to quality. Instead people are using the YT grass, and image that has been smudged to hell by YT. They didn't even care enough to use official screenshots for their comparisons.
SolarMystic
Member
I hate how the industry revolves around graphics still. I thought this shit was behind us ever since the indie revolution.
stabiliser
Neo Member
Than what is the problem. The removed an effect because it was not working and they admitted it. Downgrade confirmed, if you go by what a normal person understands under downgrade and judging by ths thread it just means change. I am fine with that and i think anybody else would be too. This is just a communication problem.
You obviously haven't played The Order 1886 or Driveclub.
DOWN
Banned
O I see
So we just somehow haven't seen any of those same superb times of day since that trailer for some reason, so they just are terrible at selecting images but were perfect at it for one trailer. That must be it.
If you going there, Console makers both microsoft & sony are the ones that put out a weak ass hardware consoles that were already dated at launch.
They should be getting all the downgradeton flak
jim2point0
Banned
That's really when this thread should be created. After release where we have real comparisons to make.
I'm still surprised that there are people who are as impressed with recent footage of the game as they were with Sword of Destiny, but yeah, like you said, chalk that up to "feelings." That's really all we have to go on, but the fact that SO MANY PEOPLE feel that way is evidence of... something.
I personally feel the game doesn't look as impressive as I used to. And a ton of other people feel teh same way. But there's no way to show evidence of that until the game is finally released and people can actually compare things.
If this thread is still going after release, I'll come back and see what people have come up with
Right now there's too much bickering back and forth about unfair comparisons.
I have this sneaking suspicion the conversation will just shift to how the original trailers aren't clear enough so the actual screens are able to be nitpicked. That and more "artistic choice" stuff.
At the end of the day nothing in the current footage matches the peak quality of the footage we initially saw. Until then it is going to be hard to convince me that this game is still the same. Especially when the defense force is so scattershot.
Dictator93
Member
That's really when this thread should be created. After release where we have real comparisons to make.
I'm still surprised that there are people who are as impressed with recent footage of the game as they were with Sword of Destiny, but yeah, like you said, chalk that up to "feelings." That's really all we have to go on, but the fact that SO MANY PEOPLE that way is evidence of... something.
I personally feel the game doesn't look as impressive as I used to. And a ton of other people feel teh same way. But there's no way to show evidence of that until the game is finally released and people can actually compare things.
If this thread is still going after release, I'll come back and see what people have come up with
Yeah, there is definitely a massive emotional component going on here (hence the defensive posturing by many). I just think comparing at this stage is purely impressions and bad mojo. We need real work done there.
But, again, where is the evidence of an overall downgrade? Based on everything I've seen I don't think they're lying. Whether any particular elements have been tweaked upwards, downwards or sideways, the overall graphical quality has remained relatively constant.
No, not all. No one is forcing these companies to release and push deceptive promotional material. The fault lies with the developers and publishers and the developers and publishers alone.
KnockOneOff
Banned
I own Driveclub, doesn't look that good apart from the odd in car sections..!your right though I haven't played the order 1886 yet, on my list though just waiting for the right price point!
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Uhhh, definitely not all of them.
On phone with shitty connection, so it's hard to go back through the pages, but the most striking comparison had Geralt on his horse looking at the horizon, with the same village in the distance. The vegetation clearly took a hit, and the draw distance was worse. These are aspects, regardless of compression, are instantly apparent. Maybe they scaled those details back to make the game run better since they're so minor? Who knows? But to act like those things aren't valid because the screenshot isn't as crisp is silly.
All I know is that conversation ended up with someone adamantly asserting that CDProjekt had some magical seasonal tech that they never mentioned before, in an attempt to hand-wave away the reduced draw.
viveks86
Member
If you are following this thread, don't you think the opposite is being said with equal conviction too? There's all kinds of mental gymnastics happening on both sides of the debate. In any case, it should't be surprising. People are about to shell out money for the game and panicking over potential downgrades isn't anything new. As much as I think we are jumping to conclusions, I find it understandable that we are. It's not like we don't have enough recent official footage to judge them on their own merit without needing to compare. My personal take is that significant cutbacks have taken place in certain aspects and some improvements in others (especially character modeling). It's mostly "gut feel" and I refuse to defend it without a 1:1 comparison, but it's difficult to not have an opinion on it after seeing so much footage and screenshots on a daily basis.
This is probably what happened. They were simply not able to maintain a single code base for 3 platforms, 2 of them with fixed hardware, without making tradeoffs. I think it's understandable if CDPR admitted said tradeoffs. Instead we are stuck in a loop because they claimed there have been no visual cut backs. I'm not going to get my pitchfork out for it, if it turns out that they lied, but it still deserves calling out so that we see some improvement in the way products are marketed to us in the future. If downgrades are to be acknowledged and accepted by consumers, because shit happens, then may be it should be duly acknowledged by producers too. This is a 2-way street after all.
biglittleps
Member
I think developers should watermark their demos and trailers shown early so they can inform viewers this may change in final version if they have doubts and can avoid this downgrade talk.
Driveclub doesn't look good?
Do you have any tangible proof they were maliciously lying about the visuals, Or you just throwing out defamatory statements to suit your made up opinion?
Obliterator
Member
I know its been going on for months but have you looked at the thread views / posts in this thread? With the game so close it seems the "downgrade" stuff is really blowing up
Pop
Member
Yeah right. You're full of it. But then you say Ryse and AW?? impressed you, haha.
For what Witcher 3 is doing, it will easily be on the top tier of games this gen, graphically.
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