John Rabbit
Banned
NO MAN THEY'RE BILKING GAMERS OUT OF AN ADDITIONAL $150,000 JUST TO PUT CHEAT CODES IN THE GAME WTF IS IGA JUST GOING TO BLOW IT ALL ON STUPID RINGS AND HATS I AM OUTRAGED111111
Koji Igarashi Kickstarts Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night (2.5D, backdash, 2018)
- Thread starter PranooY
- Start date
NO MAN THEY'RE BILKING GAMERS OUT OF AN ADDITIONAL $150,000 JUST TO PUT CHEAT CODES IN THE GAME WTF IS IGA JUST GOING TO BLOW IT ALL ON STUPID RINGS AND HATS I AM OUTRAGED111111
Scenario writer, yes, but lead designer too? I guess he could have been a freak of nature like Hideo Kojima and Masahiro Sakurai.
He also coded and designed gameplay. Also you badly underestimate the value of a good manager. They can make or break projects.
drotahorror
Member
Wasn't there a thread a couple months ago that showed all of Steam's million+ sellers? If I recall, Fallout 3 was just over a million (new vegas had like 3 million). I'd say if you release a game on PC only you're not really expecting a million sales. It takes so much longer to reach a million on PC only.
Red Arremer
Member
Yes.
He's worked on coding and design (as in, gameplay design, not art or sound design) in all the titles he produced.
Not sure if he's been as involved as he was in SotN, or to the extent of those 2 guys you mention, but it's not like he's only been overseeing scheduling and budget.
cj_iwakura
Member
Because of how well-oiled this machine is. It just gives me a bad vibe.
I really don't see this as just being some cheap get-rich-quick scheme by IGA.
Why would he bother teasing this all those months ago, even going so far as to use runes to spell out some secret hidden message?
Why would he bother with all the interviews and livestreams with developers and figures from the community?
Why would he bother working with a reputable team and trying to bring back those that had worked with him previously?
You could say this was all part of IGA's dastardly plot, and that he was just trying to hype the fans up just for them to pump in all that cash.... but honestly this is way too elaborate for just that.
If it were someone such as Molyneux at the head of this kickstarter I could see how some people might be suspicious, as he has built up something of a reputation for over-hyping and then failing to deliver on his promises. But can the same be said of IGA? Why go through such great lengths to suspect a man who proven to be reputable over the years and is not known for pulling shady stunts on consumers?
As a consumer, it's good to try to be as informed as possible and to really question whether a product deserves your hard-earned money, but honestly I feel that thinking that this is all some sort of ruse might be taking it a bit too far.
I'm not saying the game is guaranteed to be good, for all I know it could end up being the worst game I will have ever played, but I don't think that IGA has the intention to deliberately do so just so he can cash in. I really do believe that he is trying to make a great game here, and I'm confident that the money to support Bloodstained now will end up giving me a great game to play in 2017.
Why would he bother teasing this all those months ago, even going so far as to use runes to spell out some secret hidden message?
Why would he bother with all the interviews and livestreams with developers and figures from the community?
Why would he bother working with a reputable team and trying to bring back those that had worked with him previously?
You could say this was all part of IGA's dastardly plot, and that he was just trying to hype the fans up just for them to pump in all that cash.... but honestly this is way too elaborate for just that.
If it were someone such as Molyneux at the head of this kickstarter I could see how some people might be suspicious, as he has built up something of a reputation for over-hyping and then failing to deliver on his promises. But can the same be said of IGA? Why go through such great lengths to suspect a man who proven to be reputable over the years and is not known for pulling shady stunts on consumers?
As a consumer, it's good to try to be as informed as possible and to really question whether a product deserves your hard-earned money, but honestly I feel that thinking that this is all some sort of ruse might be taking it a bit too far.
I'm not saying the game is guaranteed to be good, for all I know it could end up being the worst game I will have ever played, but I don't think that IGA has the intention to deliberately do so just so he can cash in. I really do believe that he is trying to make a great game here, and I'm confident that the money to support Bloodstained now will end up giving me a great game to play in 2017.
Ben Morales
Member
I'm out too. Thread is bumming me out and raising my blood pressure.
...I have no idea what this means, and why it would give bad vibes.
cj_iwakura
Member
I have nothing but faith in Iga, it's the other forces involved I'm worried about. Like, this isn't really his baby, but the product of a lot of people who see him as a great avenue to make money.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Actually, one of those groups is probably going to be the source of most of the game's funding seeing as how they offer publishing services.
Another one of those groups is handling reward fulfillment which is something you gotta do so might as well get professionals to minimize costs while maximizing quality.
That leaves one group to handle PR. And given how fast this Kickstarter has managed to raise money despite having no gameplay footage, they're most likely making more money for the project than they're costing.
Honestly, this whole Kickstarter is practically awe inspiring at how well they've set things up.
Hah, yeah. Here we are 7 long years after the last real (to some!) Castlevania was released and we get a spiritual sequel funded. And a project that thanks to people donating money to the Kickstarter now has secured an additional 5 Mil. But no, these are snake-oil salesmen cashing in on our poor nostalgia!
All because of MN9, which isn't even a bad looking game. It's getting ridiculous at this point, people are just looking at things to throw suspicion on now.
Fair enough. He is passionate. That is undebatable. I shall remain cautiously optimistic.
cj_iwakura
Member
That's another red flag for me: lack of gameplay footage. But I've said my piece, so hopefully it turns out well. I just hate to see KSes get money strictly on power of name(hi Unsung Story) without content to back it up.
edit: I want to make sure to point out I never said or implied this was a scam or a getting rich-quick scheme, nor do I think so. I just think the kickstarter is poorly thought out.
Eh, if anything, this is on the other end of the spectrum. YG miscalculated what their stuff would cost, but Fangamer(I assume) is not putting much thought into their stretch goals either. Apparently it's gonna just be 250k increments no matter what is promised, regardless of what it may cost to implement. None of this is going to cost an added million.
Seems MN9's campaign was the same. I understand what they're doing, they're looking to drive as much money as possible. Just seems weird to me that the goals aren't really covering the actual costs of the additions. I mean, that's the point of the stretch goals, to cover new stuff. The game itself was supposed to be covered with the minimum. Honestly, these stretch goals are so meaningless that I doubt they're driving anything. The KS is getting money right now all because of the OG pitch, I bet.
If "cheat codes" encompasses new playable characters, they probably should have said so. If that's the case, then whoever is in charge of the KS is not doing their job right. Besides, there's already a 2nd playable character goal, so I'm gonna guess no.
And regarding SK, I believe they stated that they would work on the bonus content after the game was finished... I was a backer, and I don't remember they saying it was coming at launch.
Eh, if anything, this is on the other end of the spectrum. YG miscalculated what their stuff would cost, but Fangamer(I assume) is not putting much thought into their stretch goals either. Apparently it's gonna just be 250k increments no matter what is promised, regardless of what it may cost to implement. None of this is going to cost an added million.
Seems MN9's campaign was the same. I understand what they're doing, they're looking to drive as much money as possible. Just seems weird to me that the goals aren't really covering the actual costs of the additions. I mean, that's the point of the stretch goals, to cover new stuff. The game itself was supposed to be covered with the minimum. Honestly, these stretch goals are so meaningless that I doubt they're driving anything. The KS is getting money right now all because of the OG pitch, I bet.
If "cheat codes" encompasses new playable characters, they probably should have said so. If that's the case, then whoever is in charge of the KS is not doing their job right. Besides, there's already a 2nd playable character goal, so I'm gonna guess no.
And regarding SK, I believe they stated that they would work on the bonus content after the game was finished... I was a backer, and I don't remember they saying it was coming at launch.
If it helps, IntiCreates always wanted to make a Castlevania game, that they hooked up with IGA is supposedly a coinkydink due to shared acquintances between the two.
Red Arremer
Member
But it is his baby. He just leaves matters that have little to do with the development in the hands of professionals. Isn't it in your interest, as a consumer and fan of Iga's works (I'm assuming here, apologies if you do not like his games in fact), that the project lead is focusing on creating his game and leaving the marketing, the handling of printing the physical goods, etc. in the hands of people who know what they're doing?
And as Robert correctly says - given how successful this project is, I'm sure that the marketing department has already made their salaries worth of money.
I don't understand why you'd prefer this kickstarter project to be a shoddily put together amateur project instead of as professional as possible.
cj_iwakura
Member
I didn't say I want it to be an amateur project, just that I want it to be Iga's, not all these other peoples'.
OmegaDL50
Member
It doesn't work that way.
you shouldn't fall into the trap of assuming that the amount the stretch goal listed has much to do with what the stretch goal states is on offer.
Stretch goals are an incentive to get more pledges for the overall project. It's not piece meal. What they're really aiming for is as high a budget as possible for as much creative freedom as possible, able to spend extra money just on making what they DO have nicer.
I've said this before word for word, but in case you aren't aware, I'll just repeat for the sake of convenience.
Don't take stock at at each level of stretch as an independent thing. It's ALL going to the entire project, it's not split up into different allocated chunks like you post implies.
Red Arremer
Member
But it is Iga's. He just hired people to help him with things so he can make his game.
I agree. The only thing they didn't set up well was updating their page quickly enough to add new stretch goals etc., but I guess they didn't anticipate these goals to get reached within the first 10 hours of the KS going live.
zeopower6
Member
I don't think he would be able to do this on his own even on a Japanese funding site or w/e.
It's a shame! Now we have Ben Judd controlling Puppet-IGA at his own leisure!
Pretty much and considering the aimed platforms, the Japanese public doesn't seem to be the target.
Shovel Knight's first stretch goal update is due the 2nd quarter/half of 2015
http://yachtclubgames.com/2015/03/i...dows-playstation-release-date-pax-east-plush/
http://yachtclubgames.com/plague-of-shadows/
Yacht Club Games recently hired more staff to port the game to Playstation systems and Xbox One while the rest of the staff continued to work on stretch goals. They always planned to get the base game out first and work on the stretch goals later.
They're also streaming on Twitch again for the Xbox One release and Mega May.
http://yachtclubgames.com/2015/05/stream-time-mega-may-2015/
Igarashi was Director (during the latter half) of Symphony of the Night, programmer, and scenario writer. http://shmuplations.com/symphony/
He's credited as "Producer" the Castlevania games that followed, but you can tell he has a more hands on role because he's always been the one interviewed for every IGAvania since Symphony of the Night and refers to what he and his team are planning.
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,204231/
http://www.gamesradar.com/portrait-of-ruin-interview/
Castlevania Chronicles interview with IGA (2001)
The port of the X68000 Castlevania to Playstation was the 2nd Castlevania project Igarashi worked on, right before 2002's Harmony of Dissonance for GBA
https://youtu.be/5MK0631b49I
http://yachtclubgames.com/2015/03/i...dows-playstation-release-date-pax-east-plush/
http://yachtclubgames.com/plague-of-shadows/
Yacht Club Games recently hired more staff to port the game to Playstation systems and Xbox One while the rest of the staff continued to work on stretch goals. They always planned to get the base game out first and work on the stretch goals later.
They're also streaming on Twitch again for the Xbox One release and Mega May.
http://yachtclubgames.com/2015/05/stream-time-mega-may-2015/
Igarashi was Director (during the latter half) of Symphony of the Night, programmer, and scenario writer. http://shmuplations.com/symphony/
He's credited as "Producer" the Castlevania games that followed, but you can tell he has a more hands on role because he's always been the one interviewed for every IGAvania since Symphony of the Night and refers to what he and his team are planning.
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,204231/
http://www.gamesradar.com/portrait-of-ruin-interview/
"Igarashi: The team members and myself concluded that we've done most of the things [we could] with the Tactical Soul System, so let's start the [new game system] and the conclusion was, to use the two playable characters."
Castlevania Chronicles interview with IGA (2001)
The port of the X68000 Castlevania to Playstation was the 2nd Castlevania project Igarashi worked on, right before 2002's Harmony of Dissonance for GBA
https://youtu.be/5MK0631b49I
"Igarashi: The major work of mine would be directing and programming Castlevania: Symphony of the Night."
At the very least they already said we'll be getting more detailed info on what each stretch goal entails in the near future. Obviously no one knows how much else we'll learn about the game prior to the kickstarter campaign ending, but if it's anything like other big video game kickstarters we should get a good amount of info.
Typically there are frequent updates throughout kickstarter campaigns to keep interest high and bring in new backers or convince people to raise their pledges. Since Iga has some experienced people managing this one and they've set up all these social media goals I'm betting they're going to go more in depth with their plans. I expect much of it to be pretty nebulous since it seems they're still in very early pre production, but we should have a better idea of what the game may look like than we do right now by the time the campaign ends.
It's also worth noting that news and updates about kickstarter games tend to run on their own schedules. So once the campaign is over we'll likely get tidbits every couple of months (kickstarters tend to vary greatly on update frequency, but the big ones are usually pretty regular) rather than just at big convenctions like E3 or PAX.
Iga didn't make SotN alone. Having a well structured campaign around him probably keeps him from making common KS errors. Like over promising, under estimating the cost and labour of rewards, miss scoping the project and over projecting on what KS interest means.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
It's a project that has a minimum budget of $5 million dollars - it was never going to be just about one guy. None of his previous games were made by just him either. He's the leader, he's the public face, but these are all very much team efforts.
Red Arremer
Member
Nightengale
Member
Not everyone is multi talented enough to be able to control every aspect of a product development, sales and marketing and be best in class in it.
Iga trusted these people to help him make this funding project a reality, so it's his project.
Die Squirrel Die
Member
That wasn't the point people were making. The point was that YCG ran out of money (despite a seemingly successful KS campaign). If Shovel Knight hadn't been a success in regards to non-backers sales then they likely wouldn't have had the funds to fulfill those stretch goals and the backers who may have been enticed to pledge to the game would have been left without the features that the developers promised.
You were holding SK's stretch goals up as a good example, when they are in fact possibly the worst example of Kickstarter stretch goals, because the funding raised by the kickstarter wasn't enough to cover implementing them.
I know all about his involvement in Symphony of the Night. If it weren't for him picking up the slack of directing, the game wouldn't have existed in its current form. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not a one-man team. There are probably a lot of unsung heroes on his team that made it the game that we got in the end. The role of producer is important, I'm not denying that, but the staff is arguably equally important. I'm not familiar enough with Inti Creates to comment though.
Nightengale
Member
Even for games that are (Axiom), Happ had other people helping out on stuff not related to the development itself. (Dan)
Who marketed Symphony of the Night? It wasn't just him, it was also the marketing folks at Konami.
NoPiece
Member
Yes, that's a fair point. But the long term PC sales do come as the prices get drastically slashed. Fallout 3 is an odd case because it was a Games For Windows title. I'm not sure it was available via Steam initially. Skyrim in comparison, has 10 million in steam sales in a much shorter period of time.
"You too shall be my puppets!"
:lol. I needed a good chuckle after this and the Witcher 3 threads. People are in a negative nancy mode all of a sudden. It's spring people, winter is over, time to be happy.
It is practically impossible to scope control individual features in a game based on a variable budget of 1x-4x, for so very many reasons, that's just not how development works. The most honest thing they can do is keep asking for loads of money and promise things they know they can add to the game without breaking their core design.
Anyone who has ever told you otherwise is pretty much lying, unless that stretch goal had no creative element to it of any kind and no impact on the core game of any kind.
Astral Dog
Member
Inti Creates made the Megaman Zero,9, 10 and ZX games, those were fairly solid action side scrollers, they are a team of former Capcom employees, Inti is not a bad choice at all but its their 3D/2.5D games that leave much to be desired, we can only wait to see if the art direction and leading of IGA will make a better game.
Red Arremer
Member
Of course. Without the work of designers, coders, composers, etc., Iga's games never would've become a reality. Iga also is very humble. He has not taken any credit for things he hasn't done. During the Devs Play of SotN, he talked about various members of his team, like a young programmer who had come onto his team and made various rooms (e.g. the room where you fight the first Doppelganger).
In the following games, Iga was the man with the "vision", if you will. He was the main drive, and the coders and artists visualized what he wanted to do.
That's why I (and many other people who like his games) trust him to make a great game out of this. He's gone through various games and teams, and each game that came out under his direction was solid, if not great. And even if it ends up being a bad game... well, everyone gets burned once in a while, I guess. I've bought plenty of games that I did not end up enjoying in my time.
Fallout New Vegas is a Steamworks game, all legal PC copies have to be activated on Steam. Fallout 3 was not a Steamworks game and it was released back when Steam wasn't as big as it is now, so a lot of copies weren't bought on Steam.
PC only != Steam only. Fallout 3 was on other services besides Steam.
Look at a game like ArmA III, which sold a million units around a year after it launched as an Early Access game.
PfantzyPantz
Member
I had hoped that the insanely good reviews for W3 would have turned those nancies around, I'm crazy hype for it.
But yeah, this topic sure went sour for a couple pages...
Their stretch goals have worked out great for them because it gave them an excuse to avoid having to sell their game for next to nothing after a few months like everyone else; instead of slashing the price and selling the stretch content as DLC, they get to leave the price as-is (for the most part) and use the stretch content as a visibility spike instead.
Hellsing321
Member
I see we've reached that point in Kickstarter threads where the game is just a scam and the games he used to make weren't that good anyway. In record time too.
They didnt talk with more details about the strech goals, but I think it is:
- 2nd Playable Character: You can choose other character than Miriam when you start the game, if its gonna have its own storyline or simply the same game without cutscenes like Richter in SOTN.
- Cheat Codes: Its not just "simple" codes you enter before playing the game, for example Iga calls "dark methamorphosis" a "cheat" when he was playing SOTN in that recent "lets play", so I guess more secret powers for characters and weapons I guess too.
- Local Coop: 2 player game on the same system, maybe the game has online coop as default, implementing a local version they can "lose" some extra copies after the KS, you wont need a second copy and console to play with your friend, or its a strech goal because today its a rarely used feature unfortunately.
I guess Iga is going to make a game that you can play with a solo character or two characters (Portrait of Ruin style AI or another friend). Also having a VS mode (like HODespair?)
- 2nd Playable Character: You can choose other character than Miriam when you start the game, if its gonna have its own storyline or simply the same game without cutscenes like Richter in SOTN.
- Cheat Codes: Its not just "simple" codes you enter before playing the game, for example Iga calls "dark methamorphosis" a "cheat" when he was playing SOTN in that recent "lets play", so I guess more secret powers for characters and weapons I guess too.
- Local Coop: 2 player game on the same system, maybe the game has online coop as default, implementing a local version they can "lose" some extra copies after the KS, you wont need a second copy and console to play with your friend, or its a strech goal because today its a rarely used feature unfortunately.
I guess Iga is going to make a game that you can play with a solo character or two characters (Portrait of Ruin style AI or another friend). Also having a VS mode (like HODespair?)
CaviarMeths
Member
Shocking that people are trying to downplay the role of a producer in any creative project.
Elfforkusu
Member
FlutterPuffs
Member
Isn't SOTN somewhat 2.5D anyway.
Kind of but not in the same way. Everything was still sprited, but sprites were placed on flat polygons
. And some backgrounds were 3D 3D. This will use 3D models and 3D environments on a 2D plane. But they're gonna work on some shader magic to get a 2D effect like Guilty Gear XrdTechnically yes, it's rendered on 3D polygons that are flat because the PS1 could render more polygons than sprites and to surpass that limitations they rendered every sprite into polygons instead.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
It's not a scam, people are just overly "jump the gun" regarding EVERYTHING EVER POSTED on NeoGAF. Every thread likely has, at the very least, one person that blows shit out of proportion.
Shouta, if you design that weapon, maybe not just do it for Duckroll, but aim it towards all the salty posters here. Make it a sword in the shape of a giant syringe, and call it the Hyperbolic Needle, just a little pin prick to relieve an ill thread of the hyperbole.