Koji Igarashi Kickstarts Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night (2.5D, backdash, 2018)
- Thread starter PranooY
- Start date
Finale Fireworker
Member
It does not go both ways because men are heavily and overly represented compared to women. Games with female leads, and stories about women, are a minority. The under-representation of female protagonists is a severe problem that needs immediate, constant, and wide-spread correction.
You can bitch about another male lead because men have had stories about them and led campaigns of their own characters since the dawn of time. Games are no different. Video games are dominated and overpopulated with (white) male characters and no effort has been made to counteract this paradigm until recently.
When a game has a woman in the lead, and a female character starring in her own story, it is more important and more valuable to video games as a whole. It doesn't matter if the gender itself is irrelevant to the character. A female character contributes something hugely different to culture than another man.
Representation matters. Women matter. Women are under-represented in games. So, no, you cannot bitch about a female lead. To do so would be a sexist notion because of the implication that you think a male character, yet another male character in the pantheon of game protagonists, would serve as a better lead role than the woman in his place.
EDIT: And I'll cover myself here because this argument inevitably comes up: Yes, stories about men and stories about women can be made stronger because of the respective gender at the core of the experience. The Last of Us is a triumph of father/daughter narrative. The Last of Us would not be better if Joel was arbitrarily female. Sometimes gender is really centric to the story you're depicting and you absolutely should use characters that serve the story that you want to tell.
The problem arises when people only tell one kind of story and all stories become about men from a man's point of view. As a result, these stories begin to lose value because the stories have already been told. It is trying to paint a landscape with only one color. Eventually you just have a solid page of identical pigmentation that is made with indiscernible brushstrokes.
Tell stories about women. When your narrative is not directly or specifically related to gender, then don't default to white man. Mix it up. Make a woman. Or a black man. Or an elderly Asian mother. Or a gay father. Don't default to white men. Your work suffers if you do.
Hell no, it doesn't work this way.
We have two different male characters already that are very important to the story.
We don't need a male forced into the lead role.
This kinda deman is ugly. To me this is no less disgusting then people who wanted another lead when CJ was announced in San Andreas. Women and minorities get the lead role far less, and demanding a male be added to that lead spot isn't fair or right.
Sorry you don't like them, but it is an important issue and if you don't really have anything to add to the discussion, then talk about something else or go check out another thread. If there is one place we should be able to talk about representation in Bloodstained, it's probably in the Bloodstained thread.
I'm new be nice
Member
It's not like there's much else to talk about with the information at hand, as it is
Finale Fireworker
Member
There are tons of them around because it is a major and pressing issue in our hobby and the industry that generates it. If you don't believe there is a problem with the representation of minority figures then you are, unfortunately, assisting the continued existence of said problem.
Don't run and hide from the conversations and help dissolve the issue instead. The fastest way to end all these arguments about the depiction of minority figures in media is to eliminate the problem, not avoid and perpetuate it.
theSlacker
Member
To be fair, other then Axiom Verge, all the recent metroidvanias that I've played have had female leads (along with the two that I'm currently backing on kickstarter). I'm not one of the people complaining though as it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.
This please.
I don't want to help nor engage in those discussions.
It always makes the topics of games that I like toxic and annoy me to the end. We saw what derailing a thread does already (the banned guy talking about Kickstarter). Maybe a new thread for this conversation, in the future.
Right now I just want to read ideas toward the game. We already have a female lead, you guys should try to bring the discussion here (as no one from this forum provoked it, just a random guy on kickstarter comments).
It always makes the topics of games that I like toxic and annoy me to the end. We saw what derailing a thread does already (the banned guy talking about Kickstarter). Maybe a new thread for this conversation, in the future.
Right now I just want to read ideas toward the game. We already have a female lead, you guys should try to bring the discussion here (as no one from this forum provoked it, just a random guy on kickstarter comments).
theSlacker
Member
Honestly what we should be talking about is why haven't more of you backed the superior Taco weapon idea in the weapon idea thread?
Your friend didn't make it more "anime" (God I hate using that word that way, people need to stop) they just removed the "playful", "I'm gonna mess you up" aspect of the art. That is to say most of the personality :/
I can't say there are many lies detected in this post. This basic line of reasoning was why I, and I assume many others, liked what they heard from those early 4chan rumors. I will say however, as much as I absolutely appreciate increased/positive representation in the media I consume (I say this as a Black man) I don't feel comfortable blasting a developer if they choose to use an over-represented perspective (unless they justify it with horseshit logic like I remember the Order: 1886 doing recently). I'm certainly more likely to support a product if it was already appealing and on top of that provides underrepresented groups the spotlight they need but I don't think I'd reject a game wholesale if I liked a lot of what I was seeing but it just happened to star a white dude. That feels.....petty at best?
Finale Fireworker
Member
You don't have to help or engage in discussions benefitting the representation of women and minorities. Fine.
But don't tell other people to stop campaigning for something objectively important to the overall health and value of our medium. If the community is calling for progressive change and you are politely telling them to stop doing it around you, you are basically what the community is rallying against.
I agree with this. It shouldn't be part of anybody's agenda to tell creatives their characters should be different. The idea is to encourage creatives to portray different characters from the moment of inception. People didn't call for Ubisoft to genderswap some of the avatar assassins in Unity, they were upset that there wasn't a female assassin there to begin with, you know?
Now in AC: Syndicate there is a female right from the start, always intended and with a game that cares she is there.
Holy Order Sol
Member
The taco eating animation should have a ridiculously small hitbox that causes 1 damage. If you kill the enemy with that hit it turns them into a taco which you can eat to restore 1 HP.
Like it not, it was brought here.
By someone who said it was a good idea, some of us has signed off saying "nah, not this game" and left at that until someone tried to justify it being a reasonable request.
I'm not seeing how it wasn't something worth talking about when it is something (no matter how minor) people are requesting to be in the Kickstarter and then we where asked our opinions on it.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
Jathaine
Member
Let's not start this here please. We're getting a female protag. Deal with it.
I don't know what it is about you guys here but is it custom to expect people to just roll over when being a complete dick?
There's nothing to "deal with". I don't mind the game as is but I would also like to have a male playable lead, options never hurt anyone. I'm just surprised that apparently wanting this is considered sexist here. I'm not sure how much more radical you can get.
synce
Member
your avatar though
I, uh... a friend gave it to me.
More women in Castlevania I say. Er, Bloodstained.
A playable lead? I have no problem with that, and we likely already have that.
The fear and apprehension comes in when people just say Lead. We already have bullshit like the brother/sister leads for the next Ass Creed only for us to find out the Female lead actual only gets thirty percent of the game and has been completely shuttled in all promotion in favor of the male.
I don't want to see her suddenly shoved over so a male can have the logo and box art. A male playable is happening (or at least I'm sure we all believe it is with the second player) and I hope none of us have a problem with that.
Is... is there seriously already fanart of THAT nature of the main character for this game?
Holy Order Sol
Member
Well it took all of like 20 minutes for it to happen with Splatoon after all.
If there isn't fan art of her doing things with the other two Bloodstained characters, Richter, Alucard and Shanoya already I'd be frankly shocked.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
We have a second playable character, though, we don't know the gender. I imagine it's the guy from the concept art though.
The lead is definitely a female though, and honestly, I really love her design.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
I wonder if it'll be a Richter/Belmont clan equivalent since we already got Shanoa and Alucard on lock there.
I have no idea what is being said on the Kickstarter comments (and I'm not sure exactly what dragonzdogma's preferences are via his list) but these three following statements are not equivalent
A) I like/I'm ambivalent to Miriam or dislike her for reasons not related to her gender, I'd like a male playable character for the sake of options/variety/playstyle
B) I dislike Miriam for reasons relating primarily to her gender and would like a additional male playable character for the sake of options/variety/playstyle
C) I dislike Miriam for reasons relating primarily to her gender and would like a male playable character in place of her
Statements like "gender/color/etc. don't matter" tend to be problematic because they can only be made ignoring context. It's a red flag that is also somewhat complicated because on an individual to individual basis, no one product is responsible for the context its released in but nor can it ignore that context.
TTRL: Nobody is trying to call you sexist for your preferences but these representation issues are rarely equivalent because of context and even people on the same side of the issue often won't agree on when a "line" has or has not been "crossed". It's fucking complicated
Johannes has a whip and is the only other "good guy" we know, I'd guess he's probably the lead spot for the second playable character.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
I think the problem is that certain character qualities are attributed to "male characters", when in fact, they are gender neutral. Being adventurous or heroic isn't restricted to one gender. There can and SHOULD be more adventurous heroines.
Though that's just me. I've always seen all the characters in games to be gender neutral, despite many of them being male. I don't believe things like being lewd, psychotic or being tough qualities reserved to just guys. Then again, I was always one that could imagine the three guys of GTA5 being women and it actually not changing the story or tone too much, if any at all. Some guys act like they haven't grown out of the whole "cooties" schoolyard shit, like if a female character means "Princess themed tea parties, Sanrio and Lisa Frank!", in their own twisted minds, y'know. Women could like adventures, be heroic, strong and independent too. It's not just a boys club, and shouldn't be.
A defining aspect to allow you to relate to a character SHOULDN'T be what gender they are, but what "character" they are and what emotion they express. One of the major importance why it matters for MORE female characters is BECAUSE they tend to get the shaft compared to males(because the fabrication to which guys think they can ONLY relate to guys, because... PENIS.. or something like that). Character and emotion is universal. We all feel, we all get pissed off, cry, have fears, hopes, dreams and such. Some guys act like they can't, for the love of Christ, relate to female characters just because... GENDER! Really?! We aren't all that different.
Though that's just me. I've always seen all the characters in games to be gender neutral, despite many of them being male. I don't believe things like being lewd, psychotic or being tough qualities reserved to just guys. Then again, I was always one that could imagine the three guys of GTA5 being women and it actually not changing the story or tone too much, if any at all. Some guys act like they haven't grown out of the whole "cooties" schoolyard shit, like if a female character means "Princess themed tea parties, Sanrio and Lisa Frank!", in their own twisted minds, y'know. Women could like adventures, be heroic, strong and independent too. It's not just a boys club, and shouldn't be.
A defining aspect to allow you to relate to a character SHOULDN'T be what gender they are, but what "character" they are and what emotion they express. One of the major importance why it matters for MORE female characters is BECAUSE they tend to get the shaft compared to males(because the fabrication to which guys think they can ONLY relate to guys, because... PENIS.. or something like that). Character and emotion is universal. We all feel, we all get pissed off, cry, have fears, hopes, dreams and such. Some guys act like they can't, for the love of Christ, relate to female characters just because... GENDER! Really?! We aren't all that different.
burntchomsky
Member
Edit: Answered -- This thread has gotten very long, so apologies if this has already been asked, but I pledged $100 and chose the alchemist treasure ($100 pledge gift). I'm wondering if I need to actually pledge $110, though, in order to get this since it says +$10 for international shipping (I'm in the US)? I suppose the other option would be that you pay the $10 extra after the game has been created and is ready to ship.
Thanks!
Thanks!
kunonabi
Member
I'm fine with it too and considering how lame the male designs are I'm not chomping at the bit for one. IGA should have whatever lead he wants but everyone is allowed to express their opinions just the same. Actual female leads aren't that rare when it comes to video games it's just the gigantic shift towards the mega publishers aiming for the largest sales that female leads have become less common in the big mainstream stuff is all.
theSlacker
Member
You're good. It's being fulfilled by a US company so international shipping refers to outside the states. Kickstarters will auto add shipping to your tier if things require it depending on where you have your location set when you click a tier to back something afaik as well.
EDIT: As for leads, I'm fairly sure the second playable character will be that dude, but it would be nice to have two female characters.
I'd trade the second playable character for tons of alt costumes for Miriam though, that's how shallow I am.
The internet works fast, man.
I'd trade the second playable character for tons of alt costumes for Miriam though, that's how shallow I am.
The internet works fast, man.
Supaidaman
Member
I'm actually surprised at this, I guess having this kind of stuff is a good sign that people are "hyped" for the game? :v
And I actually searched for it, found only two images of that nature right now lol
Anyway, good stuff for IGA, almost at 2K. I'm not a backer yet because I'm in doubt about getting a physical copy (which would be awesome but a hassle because of the customs) or the "digital deluxe" one (lots of stuff but it's not at my hands).
Tye The Czar
Member
I don't see the problem with that. That would be technically equal.
Tye The Czar
Member
We have a right to give feedback about what we want. Ultimately, it's up to the creator what they want in the game. And if the creator includes/excludes something that people object to, then you just have to roll with the punches.
zeopower6
Member
You have to ask? My friend sent me a few images a couple of days ago =_=...
And will they have a live PayPal donation tracker?
(or make the PayPal option WAY more visible maybe?)
Wwhhhhhaaaaa???? Haha who did this? IGA's awesome.
Ozzykamikaze
Member
This is really, really good.
I was just listening to this, https://play.spotify.com/album/0brSc8H4Po0S3bztC0KMjT so, nice transition.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Monado Blade
Member
BRB, increasing my pledge
All right, we've got the assets, now somebody start making a fan game!
Which is funny as hell since One of the most popular characters of the mid-1990's was a female. *GASP* Having a strong take-no-nonsense woman character or even a good characterization that is a woman can sell.
The art isn't that bad, but the characters (especially the antagonist) have this pouty-lower lip syndrome that really detracts from the quality of the faces. Especially if the artist is trying to emulate Kojima's gothic style.
theSlacker
Member
God dammit, now I can't unsee it.