"The video-game industry has a dress code - driven by a lack of diversity"
- Thread starter oni-link
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And still no one attacked you. If you're not able to discuss this in a proper manner and without insults you could always ignore these threads.
???
We're talking about adult men in their 30s and 40s. Men who are generally in relationships with women who certainly own a dress or two.
I'd be much more likely to comment on a guy's stupid fedora than a woman wearing a dress.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
This is the first time I've ever heard someone complain about not having to dress up nice for a work event. Every job I've ever been at in an office has casual Fridays and everyone takes advantage of it because they appreciate being able to dress down.
I get that she's trying to make a point about lack of diversity, but I don't understand how this is an example of it at all. It doesn't sound like anyone made her feel bad for wearing the dress, and it sounds like if a man came to the party dressed in a similarly formal attire that they would get the same reaction.
The only point from the OP that seems directly sexist is the part where she feels like she has to watch what she wears while on camera so that she doesn't come off as too sexy. That's a really dumb stigma that needs to go away.
I get that she's trying to make a point about lack of diversity, but I don't understand how this is an example of it at all. It doesn't sound like anyone made her feel bad for wearing the dress, and it sounds like if a man came to the party dressed in a similarly formal attire that they would get the same reaction.
The only point from the OP that seems directly sexist is the part where she feels like she has to watch what she wears while on camera so that she doesn't come off as too sexy. That's a really dumb stigma that needs to go away.
Dreamwriter
Member
It's a lack of dress code, not an exclusionary dress code. People dress how they want, and it's fairly casual. If she wants to dress in casual dresses, or jeans, whatever, it's up to her. Also, calling games journalism the game industry, is a bit messed up. I'm sure people on videos have to put more thought into how they dress than someone going to work to program or design games or do art.
Aaronrules380
Member
Agreed.
Her issue is that if she dresses as she'd like to, she stands out, whereas all the guys conform to dress in a similar manner, which becomes a de faco uniform
Her dilemma is she either goes against how she would dress to conform, or stand out, so there is no uniform but if you don't conform to the standard you draw attention
She ends with:
I don't see how that is complaining or demanding men change, it's just commenting on the situation, women in general are under represented in gaming, which in the grand scheme of things is a shame, and anything to make them feel more welcome is a good thing
DarkConfidant
Member
Yeah I remember hearing a lot about this in the past. It's a catch 22 for women, at times.
Dresses are now a rarity regardless of work and I think that reflects in media as a whole, including videogames. Even in more formal environments most of the women are portrayed to wear some sort of 3 piece, be it blazer, blouse, pants, pantsuit, or something similar, something that covers them up to maintain a barrier between femininity and authority.
Part of that is the notion that if you are feminine it's harder to get taken seriously. I think this is a problem across industries, but being in a casual dressing industry can exasperate the issue. My girlfriend likes to wear dresses herself, and she definitely feels like sometimes she has to work harder to get respect. That's anecdotal, but I can see how the author feels.
MiniBossBattle
Member
Who cares how I look? My job is skill based not looks base. Last thing I need to worry about is how my clothes match because someone broke the build and we are approaching an alpha state. Let the publishers and community people dress nicely.
Hari Seldon
Member
I will file this under "bizarre shit that happens on the west coast" as to why I do not understand it. A hoard of techies all wearing plaid and denim sounds like some shit out of the onion.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Maybe it is, because it also doesn't have gender discrimination that a lot of other studios have. Not to my knowledge anyway.
In fact, you can't even turn a corner without seeing a woman. The gender balance of employment is still male dominant, but I do believe it has a better woman to men ratio than most studios.
Glass Shark
Banned
This isn't exclusive to the games industry. This is literally all 20-something dudes right now.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Sorry if my comment wasn't clear: I was only trying to point out that it's ridiculous for men to affirm it's not a gender issue because "they dress however they want to and nobody minds, so why wouldn't this woman do the same thing" when they're obviously not women...
I'm having a hard time grasping what exactly is being complained about here. It kind of reads like a stream of thought than an article maybe that's what the author was going for?
Is the problem that a lot of people in the same industry have similar tastes in casual clothing?
Or is the problem that she isn't supposed to dress sexy in order to be taken seriously?
Is the problem that a lot of people in the same industry have similar tastes in casual clothing?
Or is the problem that she isn't supposed to dress sexy in order to be taken seriously?
Opinionatedfish
Member
To be honest, if I were running a company, I would encourage people to wear fitted suits, use beard trimmers if they have a beard, and dress up for the office.
Why? Because when you look nice, you feel nice and it improves productivity.
That's sad that she feels bad for dressing nicely to an event and a culture that seems to want to push lumberjack plaid over a nice fitted suit.. is terrible and people shouldn't follow it.
Seriously, think and dress for yourself.. but.. no.. the current trends are just a hop away from neon belly bags and visible suspenders. >_<
Why? Because when you look nice, you feel nice and it improves productivity.
That's sad that she feels bad for dressing nicely to an event and a culture that seems to want to push lumberjack plaid over a nice fitted suit.. is terrible and people shouldn't follow it.
Seriously, think and dress for yourself.. but.. no.. the current trends are just a hop away from neon belly bags and visible suspenders. >_<
Ladies, we honestly don't know how to dress. We go to the store, and the only comfortable thing there is a plaid shirt. None of us like plaid, but it's there and we've got other places to go. Yeah, we could get a nice buttoned up shirt, but you really gotta get that tailored so it doesn't look comically big or highlight your gut.
chrominance
Member
I mean, that's what she says at the end, that she's made the decision not to change her dress because she feels uncomfortable or doesn't want to stand out. I think the point she's trying to make, though, is that the gaming industry doesn't have enough diversity of experience and opinions, and the fact that everyone wears the same thing despite there being no enforced dress code is a symptom of this.
Also, I had to look this up because I didn't know what a "floral a-line dress" was, so here you go. The idea that wearing that to a launch party is somehow the same as "wearing a tuxedo to a company picnic" is absurd.
What kind of place do you work where its the norm then?
its pretty normal for there to be no dress code. One of my colleagues told me it was odd that I wore a shirt and tie to my interview, but i got the job so obviously it didnt have any weight on the recruitment process. But i can see how if perhaps someone wanted to wear formal attire they might get odd looks. but this isnt gender specific (not that it makes it ok).
Aaronrules380
Member
I think diversity in the industry is absolutely a problem, but I just think focusing on how guys in the industry like to dress is a dumb way of going about it. It's not like every women likes to dress up all the time. I'm sure there are women in the industry who appreiciate not being expected to dress up, just as there are those like the writer who are the opposite. And by focusing on this issue, it does make it seem (likely unintentionally) like she's expecting the guys to change as well, which even if not the intent, will inevitably breed resentment and create an us vs them situation. Instead of pointing out something like this, point out more intentional grievances, or encourage other women to get involved. Even if this is an issue to the writer, I'm not sure the way she went about it is actually productive in causing change
Dreamwriter
Member
I think you are mixing things up - people have been deriding games where male characters dress in full armor, and then female characters have armor with holes in it making them look "sexy". In that case, removing those stupid holes makes the game more serious.
machemachete
Banned
I'd prefer everyjob to have a dress code, everytime I see a game presentation with devs in T-shits and jeans I understand why the "outside world" can't take us seriously. I agree with the girl in OP post, in events the people should be formal.
Working in a game company I see guys coming in T-shits and shorts but I use formal pants and shirt.
Working in a game company I see guys coming in T-shits and shorts but I use formal pants and shirt.
I feel like people are missing the forest for the trees here. The story about clothing is essentially an allegory to explain how there is a prevalent, dominant culture in the gaming industry and it can be intimidating to people who fall outside of it, even if it's not mandated. At the end she points out that she realized that she needs to continue to stand out because the industry needs more diversity in its taste, culture, and representation if it wants to expand and reach new audiences and new workers.
Sticky&Sweet
Banned
Would you subsidize the cost of several fitted suits? I'm not paying for that on game dev wages.
mugurumakensei
Member
that's the correct view of the article. she isn't calling anyone out. It's highlighting how homogenous the gaming industry is via the fashion angle. Personally, I prefer to wear blue jeans combined with a nice dress shirt w/ my superman t-shirt underneath + decent shoes.
Dreamwriter
Member
I've worked as a game programmer for 15 years, never seen anything like that. You must work in a strange environment...
Finale Fireworker
Member
Great article and I'm happy she managed to liberate herself somewhat. I hope more change is coming.
I have not worked in programming for fifteen years, but I've heard this comment from two other people who have. One worked for Adobe and another worked in games. There is a mentality that your jobs is singular and focused and you shouldn't be trying to impress anybody. So people who dress up get scoffed at by the guy wearing the same pants as yesterday.
It's a similar mentality in hospitals. You're supposed to be exhausted, stressed, and focused on other people. So women who do their makeup or men who dress too nicely are criticized for being vain and flashy.
I have not worked in programming for fifteen years, but I've heard this comment from two other people who have. One worked for Adobe and another worked in games. There is a mentality that your jobs is singular and focused and you shouldn't be trying to impress anybody. So people who dress up get scoffed at by the guy wearing the same pants as yesterday.
It's a similar mentality in hospitals. You're supposed to be exhausted, stressed, and focused on other people. So women who do their makeup or men who dress too nicely are criticized for being vain and flashy.
Super_Cobra
Member
I think you should dress how your job requires you to dress. I mean they are the ones that pay you. Dress formal.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=929644&highlight=
Did I start something too soon?
I just wanted the presenters to look like they stood for a strong business. Everything felt like they had walked out of the Woodstock collection video.
I know they're creative, but I still like seeing CEOs in nice clothes.
Did I start something too soon?
I just wanted the presenters to look like they stood for a strong business. Everything felt like they had walked out of the Woodstock collection video.
I know they're creative, but I still like seeing CEOs in nice clothes.
Just for yooooouuuuu
Those men *hmph*
EDIT: It really is just a perfect picture for anyone that wants to pick on gaming as a hobby. I love it.
It's definitely not a gender issue. I once had to attend to an event after work, so I went to work with some nice clothing. Everyone was joking about how I was dressed like that because of a job interview. My boss asked me if everything was alright and if I was happy at my job. I think that if I pushed a little bit I would get a raise that day.
I work on an IT company, with lots of girls. Some dress more casually, others like to dress up, and the worse that happens to them is a group of guys commenting (without she noticing, of course) how hot she is. But that happens even with women that are not dressed up, so I can't see how this is an issue.
If you dress differently than everyone else, you're going to get some attention on the first or second time you show up that way. After that, no one will notice anymore.
I work on an IT company, with lots of girls. Some dress more casually, others like to dress up, and the worse that happens to them is a group of guys commenting (without she noticing, of course) how hot she is. But that happens even with women that are not dressed up, so I can't see how this is an issue.
If you dress differently than everyone else, you're going to get some attention on the first or second time you show up that way. After that, no one will notice anymore.
Aaronrules380
Member
I can understand that, but I don't think this was the right way to go about making that point. It feels like the dress code is being stressed to much, and it's done in a way that will provoke hostility from the other side. I think one thing that might make it more effective is to point out more about what wasn't there, rather than singling out one specific type of outfit. I think the reactions this is getting also help prove my point that this was not an effective way to address the issue
Speaking out on issues is important, but it's also important on how you speak out. If you do it poorly, you just make people dismissive, your point doesn't get across, and worst case you make the issue worse by promoting conflict
autoduelist
Member
so theguys are in the wrong for dressing how they wanted to while she too dressed by her own choice?how is insulting them as "identikit" men for NOT wearing suits and ties productive in any way? it doesnt even make sense.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I'd be curious to know the sex of all those who say it isn't gender-specific. Not to attack anybody, but keep in mind it's easy to ignore or not be aware of these situations when you're not the target. Sexism and discrimination aren't always super-obvious or black and white; it can be more subtle, and if you're not the victim, it's easy to think it doesn't exist.
John Kowalski
Banned
they should dress like artists for god's sake
if i made games i'd be wearing a new frilly summer dress every day
if i made games i'd be wearing a new frilly summer dress every day
No, I think people, myself included, are just kind of selfish and reflect on themselves rather than finding empathy for someone else's self realization.
Dreamwriter
Member
I could see people *maybe* making fun of someone who dresses up, but it generally means one or two comments when they first come in wearing that and nothing more, more. And that's not something that would affect your advancement possibilities in any place I've worked, that idea makes no sense to me.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
You look at the society around them: large corporate businesses, New York Stock Exchange, Fortune 500 companies, and then you look at Facebook.
Big play pens, table top games, possibly sleeping area, and next thing you know everyone and I mean everyone is their own boss (in their own way).
I wouldn't say it's making fun of them. I'd say its just proven to be different elsewhere.
silvermember
Banned
She never said they were wrong. All she said was there is a certain implied dress code that seems to usually benefit men or at least the tech dudes. Think t-shirt with and jeans.
I don't work in the tech industry but I have seen a lot of comments with people proudly declaring dressing up is bad. Obviously anecdotal and ultimately meaningless but it does exist in some pockets.
mugurumakensei
Member
Listing what wasn't there would be quite a bit more time consuming considering the variety of casual, business casual, business, and formal styles. If 90% of people were wearing plaid, it's a lot less verbiage to say almost everyone wore plaid and blue jeans than to list off 100 styles which were not present.
If it's maintained well, I assume it wouldn't be a problem. However, a lot of beards in the IT sector are born out of hygenic laziness more than anything.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
What? Your interpretation is completely twisted. No wonder you think it doesn't make sense.
Aaronrules380
Member
This is true to an extent, but that's exactly why you need to think and be careful about how you address the issues so that you don't alienate people or cause them to tune out. Just because one person is wrong doesn't mean the other is right. How you convey your points is important. If you do it poorly or in a manner that will offend people, that's your fault. We live in an imperfect world, and as such we need to make compromises at times if we want to achieve our aims
GravityMan
Member
I'm not a fan of plaid...I very rarely see a plaid shirt that would look nice on me.
Apparently, in certain circles, wearing a suit and tie (or a dress if you're a woman) can make others feel that you're somehow stuck-up, condescending, "Wall Street"-ish and possibly the type that's willing to brown-nose up to superiors. Instead of just casually "fitting in with the crew". It doesn't matter if it's actually true or not...just having the perception can be enough to cause issues. Those IT folks you work with seem insecure. I would not want to work at a company like that.
But I'll also mention that most companies that were founded in 1990 or later, and led by younger, politically progressive leadership...likely have lax (or no) dress codes, hence employees that dress pretty casually. This is probably true in any industry except fashion, finance or any industry that requires a specific appearance for safety, security, or easy-identification (e.g. uniform in a grocery store) purposes. There is a cultural shift going on that goes well beyond the videogame industry and the overall tech industry.
On topic: I do think the author is overreacting a bit. This isn't a gender issue. It doesn't seem like anyone at the event gave her any grief; she was just another face in the crowd that just so happened to wear a dress. Nobody else batted an eye. Most people these days, especially those under the age of 40 or so, don't care how you dress. Times have changed.
Sure it's possible that you may "stand out" a bit if you look "out of place". It's human nature for eyes to be drawn to things and people that look or act incongruous with the surrounding environment. (Which didn't even happen to her.) So there's generally no need to worry about this stuff.
Apparently, in certain circles, wearing a suit and tie (or a dress if you're a woman) can make others feel that you're somehow stuck-up, condescending, "Wall Street"-ish and possibly the type that's willing to brown-nose up to superiors. Instead of just casually "fitting in with the crew". It doesn't matter if it's actually true or not...just having the perception can be enough to cause issues. Those IT folks you work with seem insecure. I would not want to work at a company like that.
But I'll also mention that most companies that were founded in 1990 or later, and led by younger, politically progressive leadership...likely have lax (or no) dress codes, hence employees that dress pretty casually. This is probably true in any industry except fashion, finance or any industry that requires a specific appearance for safety, security, or easy-identification (e.g. uniform in a grocery store) purposes. There is a cultural shift going on that goes well beyond the videogame industry and the overall tech industry.
On topic: I do think the author is overreacting a bit. This isn't a gender issue. It doesn't seem like anyone at the event gave her any grief; she was just another face in the crowd that just so happened to wear a dress. Nobody else batted an eye. Most people these days, especially those under the age of 40 or so, don't care how you dress. Times have changed.
Sure it's possible that you may "stand out" a bit if you look "out of place". It's human nature for eyes to be drawn to things and people that look or act incongruous with the surrounding environment. (Which didn't even happen to her.) So there's generally no need to worry about this stuff.