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[nemiroff]

I mean, the content of those games was the content of those games. Whatever sales they did is a different thing entirely.

Yes, and the earth is also flat.

 

[IAmRei]

while some of the word said are true, but indie saturated market required luck or cleverness in marketing. millions devs are failed, because oversaturated market as well. so no, not really, indie is not much threat because there are also part of luck involved. do You know, how many games are there, which is very good and clever, but not seen because of oversaturation of market?

 

[DeepEnigma]

So much irony with the games media writing about "deprofessionalization."

 

[diffusionx]

Yes, and the earth is also flat.

I'm not sure what point you are making but you seem very upset with what I said.

 

[Fake]

Toxic positivity is also a thing.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Obligatory mention that A16z is as techbro VC funding startup culture as you can get. Their "danger to the industry" can be summed up as "I am not making enough ROI on my VC funding".

 

[KenaiPhoenix]

Dev teams are too bloated and are somehow even more incompetent than before. Yes, they are small teams and yes, they are not hiring, but maybe there is no need for it. Incredible games like Halo were created thanks to a close teams that connected and shared ideas, game like DooM also had this.

And lets not forget for a single moment that big corpos are not here to take care of the "left behind". Why do companies like UE5 this much? Because they can hire and let go easily because they know the next guy will know how the engine works. This allows them to have shitty practices. Yes, it is better than being unemployed, but they are not the heroes here either, big part of the budget of games goes to marketing and/or to managers and other shit.

 

[Fess]

Big Studios could also make many smaller riskier games, instead of one big mass market game. Then when you have a hit game, you make a more fleshed out sequel.

Yeah why is this such a rare thing?

Remember Geometry Wars? First version was included as a quirky bonus in Project Gotham Racing, started out as a hobby project by one of the devs when testing out the analog sticks on Xbox 360.

 

[deriks]

I am a journalism college graduate, and I must say that in every topic has a lot of shitty people, a lot of people that just don't know how to work with the subjects, and some that likes it. Still, some kind of curriculum is a must

I was hired before as a local news, and it was fine. I asked to my boss to change to tech, and she eventually did. Still, it's normal to have a "chair dance", and people are changed just because. I was reallocated to national and international news, and it was also fine. But then, one day when the girl who was in the educational section was sick or something and I need to cover for her... It was a nightmare. Because not only I didn't understand shit, but I didn't gave a shit. Chances are that the girl loved, since she was a long time with this. A little later also happened with politics, and this it was more time, and at least I learned more about politicians and how much you should charge from them

With this in mind, the curriculum is needed to be sure with what you're dealing with. A tech journalist needs to know how to build a PC - yes, this is a direct punch to The Verge. A gaming journalist needs to know the importance of Doom to the industry, and how to play - another punch. If you don't have it, just look for a person that has it. It's more a problem of misdirection of the company than the person itself

 

[thief183]

As far as I'm concerned the industry can collapse tomorrow and I wouldn't care, the game I like are not done by those big corporations anymore and I can only rely on indies. Also with my backlog I'll be gaming for 3 lives.

 

[PeteBull]

Indie game:

Still nothing compared to 2h credits of AC:S

 

[Humdinger]

AFAIK the author talked about "deprofessionalization" of the industry as a whole in the linear context of potentially less career opportunities and less professionals working in it.

Oh, ok. I thought he was saying indie or AA devs weren't "professionals."

 

[ProtoByte]

This "professionalization" is what made videogames such woke vomit in the past 10 years. When your company decides you need "narrative designers", think about the people they were hiring to do that job and what it led to.

What? That role didn't only start to exist in recent years. Blaming natural change in the game industry for wokeism is not accurate. Wokeism goes way beyond gaming and was probably always going to play a role. Whether we like it or not, people on the political left will be involved in large white collar industries that center around urban metro areas.

 

[Hudo]

Remember Geometry Wars? First version was included as a quirky bonus in Project Gotham Racing, started out as a hobby project by one of the devs when testing out the analog sticks on Xbox 360.

Real talk: I played Geometry Wars in Project Gotham Racing 2 more than the actual game.

 

[Brakum]

They have a publisher. They financed them and even added them to gamepass without their knowledge.
far from independent

They are indepenendet. They'rw not owned by the publisher.

It's not a definition of indie game

Didnt say it was

 

[Felessan]

Didnt say it was

They are independent developer, but their game is not indie game, i.e. not developed independently

There are lots of studios those are independent (Arrowhead, ShiftUp, House Marque pre-aquisition etc) who works for publishers and their games funded by publishers and those games are not indie games

 

[Crayon]

Players spend less money for more games.
Players need to buy less hardware.
= industry contraction? = not my problem.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

These people want to turn the games industry into a glorified jobs program where untalented people can get paid money to fuck around for years and deliver absolute slop without any sort of accountability. Smaller devs are a threat because they prove that this isn't the only way to make video games, and these untalented people don't have to be employed to ship a game.

 

[Loomy]

These kinds of articles frustrate me because someone who knows better and is informed is using carefully cherry picked data points to push a specific narrative.

The studio is independent.

Technically right, but that's not how we differentiate indie games.

If Sandfall is considered an indie studio who made an indie game, then so is Kojima Productions with Death Stranding, Arrowhead with Helldivers, and Hazelight with Split Fiction.

Independent and Indie are 2 different things.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

This transition has been happening for a while and while some people on the business-y side at big publishers get it, the mentality really hasn't shifted for a lot of them. Which is frankly a little unbelievable. A lot of these publishers are going to get hit really, really hard in the next several years if they don't understand or at least attempt to embrace these changes in development and in what consumers are actually willing to support.

 

[Fafalada]

I mean, Rockstar seems to be able to do it well..

The company whose name is synonymous with mistreatment of its employees, has practically never made a profit in 2 decades and takes 10 years to develop each recent game with teams numbering in thousands (and growing) ... that Rockstar?

The only thing they managed well is brand/IP, their developer practices have always been a mess, and business perhaps even more so.

Don't get me wrong, clearly they're not as bad as the worst of Ubisoft, but that's an incredibly low bar to clear.

 

[nemiroff]

The company whose name is synonymous with mistreatment of its employees, has practically never made a profit in 2 decades and takes 10 years to develop each recent game with teams numbering in thousands (and growing) ... that Rockstar?

The only thing they managed well is brand/IP, their developer practices have always been a mess, and business perhaps even more so.

Don't get me wrong, clearly they're not as bad as the worst of Ubisoft, but that's an incredibly low bar to clear.

You can talk about what you want, I'm not a moderator. But since you're replying to me, the article talks about de-professionalization in the context of a hypothetical from a claimed trend of successful indie titles where things could lead to scenario where developers would not get a job or a career in the industry. Rockstar Games has about 2 000 employees (Take-Two, about 12 000), they keep the business wheels turning, and people have jobs and careers. What you are dragging in here, while it might very well be true, is not what the article nor me are discussing. Right now, in this thread, in this topic, I don't give a shit whether Rockstar is petting or executing their employees.

 

[KyoZz]

Indie game:

I don't know what you are trying to say but:

1) Yes, it is an indie game
2) If you watch the credits you can see that same names are coming back multiple times
3) The core devs don't know how to play all the instruments for the soundtrack, so OF COURSE they hired an orchestra
4) They had a few people (4 in fact) from Korea helping them with the animations. That's it.

But the game is mostly made (like 95%) by, funnily enough, 33 employees.

They have a publisher. They financed them and even added them to gamepass without their knowledge.
far from independent

Without their knowledge? Source?? I can't find anything corroborating this, but you wouldn't made up such claim right? Right...?

Watch this, it's in French but subtitles exists:



They praise the philosophie of Kepler "you need more time? Fine take it!" and explain that the editor is fully hands off with the project, they are just here to... well edit.

I don't know why some people have an hate boner for this game, really weird. This was a BIG accomplishment and instead of celebrating it (even if you don't like the game) a few weirdo chose to shit on it.

 

[Last Hearth]

With an increase in people in an industry you'll linearly bring people with all kinds of different attributes and opinions. I'm sure there also are a few MAGAs sprinkled in there to make some other people's confirmation bias go off as well.

I don't care if they're left wing or right wing, I just want people making games to be people who love to play games, not people for whom it's just a "job". That's what all the professionalization gets you. People who can follow a design document but have no passion for the end product.

 

[March Climber]

Big studios materialized when investors and executives discovered that they could potentially make billion dollar profits by going up and above others' means. In turn it gave the industry a lot of new employees and expertise/professionals, some of who started their own indie studios. It had literally nothing to do with "woke".

What? That role didn't only start to exist in recent years. Blaming natural change in the game industry for wokeism is not accurate.

You guys are trying to reply rationally to an irrational standpoint. Most people here (hopefully) know that his argument breaks down the minute you include the PS360 generation (which is where one could trace the deprofessionalization conversation back to) and it also breaks down the minute we include studios from outside of the western ones, who have also been experiencing their own issues with bloat, studio implosions/closures, and layoffs.

 

[rofif]

I don't know what you are trying to say but:

1) Yes, it is an indie game
2) If you watch the credits you can see that same names are coming back multiple times
3) The core devs don't know how to play all the instruments for the soundtrack, so OF COURSE they hired an orchestra
4) They had a few people (4 in fact) from Korea helping them with the animations. That's it.

But the game is mostly made (like 95%) by, funnily enough, 33 employees.


Without their knowledge? Source?? I can't find anything corroborating this, but you wouldn't made up such claim right? Right...?

Watch this, it's in French but subtitles exists:



They praise the philosophie of Kepler "you need more time? Fine take it!" and explain that the editor is fully hands off with the project, they are just here to... well edit.

I don't know why some people have an hate boner for this game, really weird. This was a BIG accomplishment and instead of celebrating it (even if you don't like the game) a few weirdo chose to shit on it.

I've watched some interview with the director last week and he told that they found a publisher and next thing, they were informed that they will be releasing on gamepass.
He had no say in it.
It was in Cohn interview I think

 

[KyoZz]

I've watched some interview with the director last week and he told that they found a publisher and next thing, they were informed that they will be releasing on gamepass.
He had no say in it.
It was in Cohn interview I think

It's curious, because in the interview I linked, he says that Gamepass generated significant revenue at the right time. And given his praise for the publisher, I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be.

Are you sure you are not confounding this with the Oblivion Remaster drop (which he admits they knew very shortly before the actual shadow drop)..

 

[Fess]

Real talk: I played Geometry Wars in Project Gotham Racing 2 more than the actual game.

Real talk: It was an awesome game!

There was the Mutant Storm twin stick shmup as well on early days Xbox Live Arcade, I played that a lot. And PS3 had one with water ripples effects, Blast Factor iirc. Then came the Housemarque Stardust. Awesome era! And twin stick shooting is one of my fav genres!

I enjoyed The Ascent a ton just a couple years ago as well, absolutely loved the twin stick controls there, people really slept on that one, it got harsh review scores for some weird reason but it was really great, lots of different strategies with the weapon variety. Made by 15 people or something like that, crazy achievement really.

There needs to be more games like that. Smaller ones with a gameplay focus. Big studios could do so much more than just have 300+ people working on the same gigantic game for 5+ years. We get 1 game per console generation in some cases, mehhhh!

 

[Brakum]

These kinds of articles frustrate me because someone who knows better and is informed is using carefully cherry picked data points to push a specific narrative.


Technically right, but that's not how we differentiate indie games.

If Sandfall is considered an indie studio who made an indie game, then so is Kojima Productions with Death Stranding, Arrowhead with Helldivers, and Hazelight with Split Fiction.

Independent and Indie are 2 different things.

I didn't say it was an indie game. I just said the studio was independent which is a fact. I am well aware what we call indie games and that it doesnt even matter if you're independent or not for your game to be considered an indie game

 

[Catphish]

I cant wait to see the industry crumble. Sorry not sorry.

You know what's damaging to the industry? Firing thousands of people every year.

Boo hoo marketing positions will be the first ones to be gone. Yeah, because they're not fucking needed. At least not to that extent. Big scale marketing does not work for video games. Video Games are a hobby of people who are on the internet. Almost all of them. No amount of times square billboards, posters in big cities and super bowl ads are gonna make your shitty game a huge success. And games with zero marketing can easily outperform you because their good and word of mouth spreads like wild fire. Word of mouth is the best marketing in gaming in 2025. Which means that the solution for your game to be a huge success, is to make a good game.

And a good game is not guaranteed to go viral, that's true. But is it really in this case? Like small games can go under the radar. But is a Ubisoft, EA, Microsoft game gonna go under the radar? No, people will know about those games without the marketing. You have GUARANTEED word of mouth. For better or worse.

AND we know you love to sell advanced access now to make a few more bucks but that isn't doing you any favors either. You have established IP's that some people would pre order to play, without knowing if it's good. But now you make one of those and it's shit, and you sold advanced access, and now you have a lot of people 3 days before release showing the whole game and saying it's shit? Guess i'll cancel my pre order.

 

[Hudo]

I enjoyed The Ascent a ton just a couple years ago as well, absolutely loved the twin stick controls there, people really slept on that one, it got harsh review scores for some weird reason but it was really great, lots of different strategies with the weapon variety. Made by 15 people or something like that, crazy achievement really.

I have slept on this too, it seems. I'm gonna check it out.

 

[rofif]

It's curious, because in the interview I linked, he says that Gamepass generated significant revenue at the right time. And given his praise for the publisher, I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be.

Are you sure you are not confounding this with the Oblivion Remaster drop (which he admits they knew very shortly before the actual shadow drop)..

I would need to rewatch the cohn inverview but he says it like it was up to the publisher.
But he didnt object or had anything to say about that

 

[cartman414]

Lol. Highly reminiscent of corporate establishment Democrats critiquing leftists as "unserious".

 

[Magister]

Fuck dem AAA. There are barely any good these days. I will stick to indies and retro games. And don't forget games by Japanese and other Asian devs that are not infested with BS politics. Older shit too, fu Ubisoft for not making another Rayman game.

There are plenty of games to play if you are not a graphics whore. Have a shitty laptop? Turn it into an emulation machine or just buy old shit on Steam, GOG. Pissed off at modern Western big budget games, play Japanese games or indies. Think outside the box and everything is going to be alright.

 

[Plague Doctor]

A dev commented on this over on Reddit basically saying, "Yeah there was more indie booths at PAX and devs cause the AAA corporations fired us. We are making it work."

That's my feeling on this piece of shit article. This is a response to bloat and the overpriced bullshit AAA has placed themselves into.

Fuck off with the AAA bemoaning why people are starting to migrate to AA and indies and how it's deprofessionalizing. I will happily support small dev teams that are making good games and enthusiastically recommend them to friends.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Yep, most AAA titles and the people making them are shit. I don't give a single fuck about their "problems" and think they are likely responsible for them (if they exist at all).

 

[ProtoByte]

A dev commented on this over on Reddit basically saying, "Yeah there was more indie booths at PAX and devs cause the AAA corporations fired us. We are making it work."

That's my feeling on this piece of shit article. This is a response to bloat and the overpriced bullshit AAA has placed themselves into.

Fuck off with the AAA bemoaning why people are starting to migrate to AA and indies and how it's deprofessionalizing. I will happily support small dev teams that are making good games and enthusiastically recommend them to friends.

The problem is that the vast majority of those indie devs are just cluttering up the storefronts. Sorry to say it, but it's true. So I understand using the word "deprofessionalization".

AAA game development was rarely ever 1000 people strong in the credits all the way up until the early 2010s - around abouts when central banks around the world decided they were going to pump the market with chronically and artificially low interest rates. That plus a genuinely booming industry meant a massive acceleration in studio proliferation and growth, and it was never going to be sustainable. And before that even begun to flush out naturally, coof comes along and speedruns the pump yet again.

We will not get back to 2000s norms in terms of western development, but it's natural and appropriate for there to be a contraction. Within the next 5 years, you can be sure that these indie devs will not be blaming publishers - consumers are next.

 

[PlayStaytion]

What the fuck is a "proper" business? Why is he being so condescending towards smaller businesses and those who rely on contractors/outsourcing to deliver quality work?

As somebody who runs two tech businesses which both heavily rely on outsourcing to do what we do, this article is abhorrent as far as I'm concerned. Regardless of industry, businesses have zero obligation to hire people on a full time in-house basis - the obligation is to deliver quality work and deliver what the customer wants. If you can do that, both better and more efficiently than a huge industry player who employs hundreds, if not thousands, of employees then why is that an indictment of you and not of the huge inefficient company which is doing nothing more than wasting the money and resources at their disposal?

If jobs are being "lost" in all of this then maybe the industry never needed all those "jobs" in the first place.

Yup, that's clearly a sidestepping from quality contents.

 

[Kotaro]

Article should read 'Deprofesionalization of WESTERN Gaming Industry'

because obviously Asian gaming developers do not face the same problems as those in the West

 

[PlayStaytion]

Too many big studios are bloated with useless "consultants" and middle management, that only serve to waste money and slow down development.

Unfortunately, most perfect games only exists in the mind of artists.