nemiroff
Member
Yes, and the earth is also flat.I mean, the content of those games was the content of those games. Whatever sales they did is a different thing entirely.
Yes, and the earth is also flat.I mean, the content of those games was the content of those games. Whatever sales they did is a different thing entirely.
I'm not sure what point you are making but you seem very upset with what I said.Yes, and the earth is also flat.
Yeah why is this such a rare thing?Big Studios could also make many smaller riskier games, instead of one big mass market game. Then when you have a hit game, you make a more fleshed out sequel.
AFAIK the author talked about "deprofessionalization" of the industry as a whole in the linear context of potentially less career opportunities and less professionals working in it.
What? That role didn't only start to exist in recent years. Blaming natural change in the game industry for wokeism is not accurate. Wokeism goes way beyond gaming and was probably always going to play a role. Whether we like it or not, people on the political left will be involved in large white collar industries that center around urban metro areas.This "professionalization" is what made videogames such woke vomit in the past 10 years. When your company decides you need "narrative designers", think about the people they were hiring to do that job and what it led to.
Real talk: I played Geometry Wars in Project Gotham Racing 2 more than the actual game.Remember Geometry Wars? First version was included as a quirky bonus in Project Gotham Racing, started out as a hobby project by one of the devs when testing out the analog sticks on Xbox 360.
They are indepenendet. They'rw not owned by the publisher.They have a publisher. They financed them and even added them to gamepass without their knowledge.
far from independent
Didnt say it wasIt's not a definition of indie game
They are independent developer, but their game is not indie game, i.e. not developed independentlyDidnt say it was
Technically right, but that's not how we differentiate indie games.The studio is independent.
The company whose name is synonymous with mistreatment of its employees, has practically never made a profit in 2 decades and takes 10 years to develop each recent game with teams numbering in thousands (and growing) ... that Rockstar?I mean, Rockstar seems to be able to do it well..
You can talk about what you want, I'm not a moderator. But since you're replying to me, the article talks about de-professionalization in the context of a hypothetical from a claimed trend of successful indie titles where things could lead to scenario where developers would not get a job or a career in the industry. Rockstar Games has about 2 000 employees (Take-Two, about 12 000), they keep the business wheels turning, and people have jobs and careers. What you are dragging in here, while it might very well be true, is not what the article nor me are discussing. Right now, in this thread, in this topic, I don't give a shit whether Rockstar is petting or executing their employees.The company whose name is synonymous with mistreatment of its employees, has practically never made a profit in 2 decades and takes 10 years to develop each recent game with teams numbering in thousands (and growing) ... that Rockstar?
The only thing they managed well is brand/IP, their developer practices have always been a mess, and business perhaps even more so.
Don't get me wrong, clearly they're not as bad as the worst of Ubisoft, but that's an incredibly low bar to clear.
Indie game:
Without their knowledge? Source?? I can't find anything corroborating this, but you wouldn't made up such claim right? Right...?They have a publisher. They financed them and even added them to gamepass without their knowledge.
far from independent
I don't care if they're left wing or right wing, I just want people making games to be people who love to play games, not people for whom it's just a "job". That's what all the professionalization gets you. People who can follow a design document but have no passion for the end product.With an increase in people in an industry you'll linearly bring people with all kinds of different attributes and opinions. I'm sure there also are a few MAGAs sprinkled in there to make some other people's confirmation bias go off as well.
Big studios materialized when investors and executives discovered that they could potentially make billion dollar profits by going up and above others' means. In turn it gave the industry a lot of new employees and expertise/professionals, some of who started their own indie studios. It had literally nothing to do with "woke".
You guys are trying to reply rationally to an irrational standpoint. Most people here (hopefully) know that his argument breaks down the minute you include the PS360 generation (which is where one could trace the deprofessionalization conversation back to) and it also breaks down the minute we include studios from outside of the western ones, who have also been experiencing their own issues with bloat, studio implosions/closures, and layoffs.What? That role didn't only start to exist in recent years. Blaming natural change in the game industry for wokeism is not accurate.
I don't know what you are trying to say but:
1) Yes, it is an indie game
2) If you watch the credits you can see that same names are coming back multiple times
3) The core devs don't know how to play all the instruments for the soundtrack, so OF COURSE they hired an orchestra
4) They had a few people (4 in fact) from Korea helping them with the animations. That's it.
But the game is mostly made (like 95%) by, funnily enough, 33 employees.
Without their knowledge? Source?? I can't find anything corroborating this, but you wouldn't made up such claim right? Right...?
Watch this, it's in French but subtitles exists:
They praise the philosophie of Kepler "you need more time? Fine take it!" and explain that the editor is fully hands off with the project, they are just here to... well edit.
I don't know why some people have an hate boner for this game, really weird. This was a BIG accomplishment and instead of celebrating it (even if you don't like the game) a few weirdo chose to shit on it.
It's curious, because in the interview I linked, he says that Gamepass generated significant revenue at the right time. And given his praise for the publisher, I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be.I've watched some interview with the director last week and he told that they found a publisher and next thing, they were informed that they will be releasing on gamepass.
He had no say in it.
It was in Cohn interview I think
Real talk: It was an awesome game!Real talk: I played Geometry Wars in Project Gotham Racing 2 more than the actual game.
I didn't say it was an indie game. I just said the studio was independent which is a fact. I am well aware what we call indie games and that it doesnt even matter if you're independent or not for your game to be considered an indie gameThese kinds of articles frustrate me because someone who knows better and is informed is using carefully cherry picked data points to push a specific narrative.
Technically right, but that's not how we differentiate indie games.
If Sandfall is considered an indie studio who made an indie game, then so is Kojima Productions with Death Stranding, Arrowhead with Helldivers, and Hazelight with Split Fiction.
Independent and Indie are 2 different things.
I cant wait to see the industry crumble. Sorry not sorry.
You know what's damaging to the industry? Firing thousands of people every year.
Boo hoo marketing positions will be the first ones to be gone. Yeah, because they're not fucking needed. At least not to that extent. Big scale marketing does not work for video games. Video Games are a hobby of people who are on the internet. Almost all of them. No amount of times square billboards, posters in big cities and super bowl ads are gonna make your shitty game a huge success. And games with zero marketing can easily outperform you because their good and word of mouth spreads like wild fire. Word of mouth is the best marketing in gaming in 2025. Which means that the solution for your game to be a huge success, is to make a good game.
And a good game is not guaranteed to go viral, that's true. But is it really in this case? Like small games can go under the radar. But is a Ubisoft, EA, Microsoft game gonna go under the radar? No, people will know about those games without the marketing. You have GUARANTEED word of mouth. For better or worse.
AND we know you love to sell advanced access now to make a few more bucks but that isn't doing you any favors either. You have established IP's that some people would pre order to play, without knowing if it's good. But now you make one of those and it's shit, and you sold advanced access, and now you have a lot of people 3 days before release showing the whole game and saying it's shit? Guess i'll cancel my pre order.
I have slept on this too, it seems. I'm gonna check it out.I enjoyed The Ascent a ton just a couple years ago as well, absolutely loved the twin stick controls there, people really slept on that one, it got harsh review scores for some weird reason but it was really great, lots of different strategies with the weapon variety. Made by 15 people or something like that, crazy achievement really.
I would need to rewatch the cohn inverview but he says it like it was up to the publisher.It's curious, because in the interview I linked, he says that Gamepass generated significant revenue at the right time. And given his praise for the publisher, I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be.
Are you sure you are not confounding this with the Oblivion Remaster drop (which he admits they knew very shortly before the actual shadow drop)..
The problem is that the vast majority of those indie devs are just cluttering up the storefronts. Sorry to say it, but it's true. So I understand using the word "deprofessionalization".A dev commented on this over on Reddit basically saying, "Yeah there was more indie booths at PAX and devs cause the AAA corporations fired us. We are making it work."
That's my feeling on this piece of shit article. This is a response to bloat and the overpriced bullshit AAA has placed themselves into.
Fuck off with the AAA bemoaning why people are starting to migrate to AA and indies and how it's deprofessionalizing. I will happily support small dev teams that are making good games and enthusiastically recommend them to friends.
Yup, that's clearly a sidestepping from quality contents.What the fuck is a "proper" business? Why is he being so condescending towards smaller businesses and those who rely on contractors/outsourcing to deliver quality work?
As somebody who runs two tech businesses which both heavily rely on outsourcing to do what we do, this article is abhorrent as far as I'm concerned. Regardless of industry, businesses have zero obligation to hire people on a full time in-house basis - the obligation is to deliver quality work and deliver what the customer wants. If you can do that, both better and more efficiently than a huge industry player who employs hundreds, if not thousands, of employees then why is that an indictment of you and not of the huge inefficient company which is doing nothing more than wasting the money and resources at their disposal?
If jobs are being "lost" in all of this then maybe the industry never needed all those "jobs" in the first place.
Unfortunately, most perfect games only exists in the mind of artists.Too many big studios are bloated with useless "consultants" and middle management, that only serve to waste money and slow down development.