Support NeoGAF

[entremet]

I edited the title to avoid any spoilers. I don't know if that's too much. But people are pretty crazy about GOT spoilers, so I wanted to be sensitive.

Full spoilers of ahead. So if you're not caught up and don't want to get spoiled, press the back button.

A rape scene in Sunday’s episode of “Game of Thrones” has brought renewed criticism to this popular HBO fantasy series, which has previously drawn fire for what some viewers believe is its frequent and callous depiction of sexual violence.

The audience members who have expressed their disapproval since Sunday’s broadcast include United States Senator Claire McCaskill, Democrat of Missouri, who said in a Twitter post on Tuesday that she was “done” with the show.


This episode of “Game of Thrones,” which is adapted from a series of novels written by George R. R. Martin, concluded on Sunday with a wedding between the characters Ramsay Bolton (Iwan Rheon) and Sansa Stark (Sophie Turner). In a scene that follows, Ramsay sexually assaults Sansa while he forces a third character, Theon (Alfie Allen) to watch. The rape is primarily portrayed through sound and through Theon’s pained reactions.

This scene, which is presented differently on the television series than in Mr. Martin’s novels (where Ramsay brutalizes a different character), was condemned by viewers who found it unnecessary, and who are concerned that “Game of Thrones” is trivializing rape through constant depiction.

“OK, I’m done Game of Thrones,” Ms. McCaskill wrote on Twitter. After describing another scene in the episode as “stupid,” she added: “Gratuitous rape scene disgusting and unacceptable. It was a rocky ride that just ended.”

The feminist culture website The Mary Sue said that it would no longer publish what it considered promotional posts about “Game of Thrones” following this episode

Full article:

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2...-sansa-rape-outrage/?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0

 

[neogaffer1]

Normally I'd laugh and say that GRRM claims another victim but

Spoiler

t

Spoiler

hat shit wasn't even in the books, at least with not that character. The hell D&D?

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

Normally I'd laugh and say that GRRM claims another victim but

Spoiler

t

Spoiler

hat shit wasn't even in the books. The hell D&D?

to be fair, if they waited for GRRM to finish the books then they would halt filming till 21XX

 

[gutshot]

Normally I'd laugh and say that GRRM claims another victim but

Spoiler

t

Spoiler

hat shit wasn't even in the books, at least with not that character. The hell D&D?

In the books it was way worse. Except it happened to a minor character so I guess that makes it OK?

 

[Zabka]

Normally I'd laugh and say that GRRM claims another victim but

Spoiler

t

Spoiler

hat shit wasn't even in the books, at least with not that character. The hell D&D?

The wedding night took place in the books with another character and was far worse.

 

[shadyspace]

I mean, she agreed to marry the guy. What did she think was going to happen on a Westeros wedding night?

 

[ryseing]

In the books it was way worse. Except it happened to a minor character so I guess that makes it OK?

The level of attachment is different. It wouldn't have made it OK but the anger would not be this intense.

 

[BFIB]

Oh, how nice of you McCaskill. Meanwhile there were 3 cases of alleged rape with Mizzou football, one being verified, and she goes on local radio here in St. Louis to offer support for Mizzou time and time again.

 

[idlewild_]

to be fair, if they waited for GRRM to finish the books then they would halt filming till 21XX

He rapes someone else in the books

 

[Veritigo_X]

The show creator's defense of the scene is pretty bad too. They called it "a woman making a difficult decision." They came out to defend their last rape scene as well, claiming it was also not actually rape. This seems to be a recurring issue.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Hold up, as a book reader who doesn't watch the show...

Spoiler

Sansa (the actual Sansa not a replacement) was raped?

The fuck?

 

[neogaffer1]

In the books it was way worse. Except it happened to a minor character so I guess that makes it OK?

The wedding night took place in the books with another character and was far worse.

Spoiler

It's implied that Jeyne Poole was hidden working in one of Littlefinger's whorehouses. To me, maybe it's just me, but even though the actions done to her were far worse, at least she had some sexual experience beforehand, whereas Sansa had none. Then again, as I think about this maybe forced prostitution doesn't equate to a healthy sexual experience... Plus, Sansa at the end of last season was being built up as a player of the Game, hence the character redesign and it seemed she would actually become a powerful character. Instead, she is immediately pushed back into "other people are controlling her and doing awful things to her," ruining good character development.

The level of attachment is different. It wouldn't have made it OK but the anger would not be this intense.

Also this.

 

[evilromero]

I haven't watched the show since season 3 but have read all of the books. So what's up with changing so many elements from the book then?

 

[maquiladora]

Compared to some of the other brutal and depraved shit which has been portrayed in the show over the past seasons, I actually thought that scene wasn't all that harrowing and certainly wasn't very graphic or explicit.

 

[Veritigo_X]

I haven't watched the show since season 3 but have read all of the books. So what's up with changing so many elements from the book then?

Snowball effect. Things are out of control.

 

[Squishy3]

The show is terrible for reasons other than this.

Let's just completely remove important character arcs, instead we get Jaime and Bronn's merry trip to Dorne.

 

[idlewild_]

I haven't watched the show since season 3 but have read all of the books. So what's up with changing so many elements from the book then?

They dropped/merged a lot of the characters together. Have only watched a couple eps here and there, but I'm not sure that particular character is even in the show.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

I mean, she agreed to marry the guy. What did she think was going to happen on a Westeros wedding night?

Pretty much. When will people stop being outraged at what happens in a fantasy world?


That said I don't think D&D are capable of saying anything about rape, other than "it's bad".

 

[PhoenixDark]

That didn't happen in the books, place the blame on D&D for being shit showrunners who rely so much on excesses that this stuff feels exploitative. Nor do they have much benefit of the doubt after purposely editing a scene into a rape scene last season (once again, one that didn't occur in the books).

This season just might kill the show lol.

 

[Zabka]

The show creator's defense of the scene is pretty bad too. They called it "a woman making a difficult decision." They came out to defend their last rape scene as well, claiming it was also not actually rape. This seems to be a recurring issue.

The scene with Cersei and Jaime was such a fuckup that I'm not surprised people don't give them the benefit of the doubt anymore. They talked about it as if they shot the scene from the book but there was no ambiguity about what aired.

 

[NekoFever]

I haven't watched the show since season 3 but have read all of the books. So what's up with changing so many elements from the book then?

Certain characters have been amalgamated and events simplified, and I guess they don't have enough characters now to spread the bad stuff around.

 

[damien1928]

I was uncomfortable watching it and they closed the show with it, I felt pretty shitty tbh, seemed unnecessary because Ramsay never/hasn't married Sansa in the books but I guess they are taking a different direction, Theon Greyjoys (Alfie Allen?) acting was amazing though.

Won't stop watching, however wasn't a fan if the brutality of the scene.

 

[Dreadnought]

People are actually upset? Was this their first time watching gam of thrones?

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Hold up, as a book reader who doesn't watch the show...

Spoiler

Sansa (the actual Sansa not a replacement) was raped?

The fuck?

That's what I thought too. I don't watch the show but I read the books years ago (and expect them never to be finished). It's really weird that they've started to diverge this much but it's especially disgusting since it was apparently was done to make Sansa's storyline more "interesting."

 

[pantsmith]

How should it have been handled?

There is no other way that scene would have played out, given the world or the characters or any of the factors at play. Saying it didn't happen in the books is a ridiculous non-argument, because it would have if the setup was the same. Ramsey is a monster, Sansa married him, and their wedding night was the logical next step. It's true to the story.

I'm all for careful treatment of the subject, not just shoehorning it in for shock, but I'm struggling to think what else would have been true to the characters?

 

[gutshot]

The show creator's defense of the scene is pretty bad too. They called it "a woman making a difficult decision." They came out to defend their last rape scene as well, claiming it was also not actually rape. This seems to be a recurring issue.

It was the writer of the episode who talked about that. And he was referring to Sansa's decision to marry Ramsay and was not specifically talking about their wedding night.

Last year the show runners called the scene between Cersei and Jaime rape. It was the director who implied it started out as rape and then become consensual or some such nonsense.

 

[TraBuch]

Watching someone get his head popped is cool, but a rape that you don't even see is somehow off limits?

 

[CharminUltra]

This scene (which wasn't actually badly done) is the least of this show's problems.

 

[PhoenixDark]

In the books it was way worse. Except it happened to a minor character so I guess that makes it OK?

And yet it's not seen "on page." I can't think of a reason why anyone would depict that scene. It could have been handled much better. But any type of subtlety is thrown out the window on this show.

 

[ultron87]

This has already caused one of my friends who was a huge fan before this season to decide to drop the show entirely. Several other people I know seem to be considering it.

It isn't really just the use of rape (again) it's how carelessly it seems to have been inserted in this created storyline and into Sansa's character arc to create drama. As that Deadspin article put it "The problem isn’t that this episode included a rape, but that it did so in the service of bad storytelling. It told the audience nothing that wasn’t already known, and it didn’t advance any plot lines beyond where they already were." This is similar to last season where they had women being raped as background scenery to the evil Night's Watch guys (who we already knew we evil scum bags). Maybe they'll at least follow up on this one unlike last season's apparently unintentional rape scene between Jaime and Cersei.

 

[Patriots7]

In the books it was way worse. Except it happened to a minor character so I guess that makes it OK?

The producers have had no problem deviating from the book. They couldn't have deviated from this storyline? Of all of the shit that happened in the books, this is the plot they keep?
Let's forget about the fact that they are ruining any agency that the character they chose to use in this plot has slowly been building.

I mean, she agreed to marry the guy. What did she think was going to happen on a Westeros wedding night?

Jesus Christ.

Hold up, as a book reader who doesn't watch the show...

Spoiler

Sansa (the actual Sansa not a replacement) was raped?

The fuck?

Yes.

 

[thelatestmodel]

Didn't read the thread because spoilers, but whatever people are complaining about, THIS IS WHAT YOU SIGNED UP FOR. It's Game of Thrones.

 

[Broken Joystick]

Was it done simply for shock value and not focusing on the narrative? If so it's a shitty decision.

 

[neogaffer1]

For all the people confused as to why there's an outcry, you would need to understand that from a book reader's point of view, D & D are just handling things really badly and this scene specifically pretty much ruined this character's story arc in terms of where she is in the book compared to the show.

Spoiler

In the book she's becoming a manipulative, power hungry player of the game, as shown by the recently released TWOW chapter. Making her a pawn again like the show has undoes a lot of that.

 

[Servbot #42]

I haven't watched the show since season 3 but have read all of the books. So what's up with changing so many elements from the book then?

Haven't read the books yet but i'm pretty sure they changed stuff around because it's simply needed when you are making a TV show, you can't expect them to adapt the books 100% when they are so massive.

 

[Slixshot]

It's a TV show that is rated 17+ with good reason. Nothing was even shown in this scene.

 

[Kinyou]

People are actually upset? Was this their first time watching gam of thrones?

That's what confuses me a bit. It's not like this came totally out of nowhere.

 

[entremet]

Looks like a mod edited the title. I guess the full title wasn't a big deal.

Don't blame me, spoilerphobes ;P

 

[-griffy-]

The show creator's defense of the scene is pretty bad too. They called it "a woman making a difficult decision." They came out to defend their last rape scene as well, claiming it was also not actually rape. This seems to be a recurring issue.

That's not an accurate depiction of what the writer said. Sansa entering the marriage agreement was a "hardened woman making a tough choice and she sees this as the way to get back her homeland." Littlefinger gives her a choice, and she decides to go through with it to try and get revenge. The rape is characterized as "Sansa has a wedding night in the sense she never thought she would with one of the monsters of the show. It’s pretty intense and awful and the character will have to deal with it."

This isn't an excuse or a "defense," or diminishing the scene or anything else, it is an explanation.

Cogman further clarified in an update to the story "The ‘choice’ I was referring to was Sansa’s choice to marry Ramsay and walk into that room. She feels marrying him is a vital step in reclaiming her homeland. Not trying to change anyone’s opinion of the scene (negative or otherwise) but that it what I was … Ok, LAST last word. In NO WAY… NO WAY was that comment an attempt to ‘blame the victim.’ If it seemed that way I’m deeply sorry."

 

[The Lamonster]

Can't take the heat? Get out of the kitchen.

I wonder what kind of additional outrage there'd be if they had shown more of her 18/19 year-old body.

 

[hobblygobbly]

All the talk I hear about it kind of annoys me because nobody is mentioning that it is marital rape. While any form of rape is equally terrible, criticising Sansa's scene's rape and not the fact that it's also marital rape does an injustice to real life victims of marital rape that you don't hear much of. Marital rape is a big problem that goes unheard of and here is an opportunity to discuss more widely marital rape.

 

[bengraven]

I knew this would get it's own thread eventually.

I can promise there won't be a single rape scene after this. They got their media attention last time, but you can't do it more than twice.

 

[inky]

I thought it made sense in the fictitious world of the show *shrugs*

People are free to "be done" with the show over it tho, sure. Many arcs seem to be going somewhere, but they stagnate a bit much. Sansa's is one of them.

 

[thelatestmodel]

Can't take the heat? Get out of the kitchen.

My point precisely. What show do people think they're watching.

 

[Sh1ner]

Book spoilers leading up to the scene:

Spoiler

Its Jayne Pool (a friend of Sansa from winterfell) who poses as Sansa that gets married to Ramsay.
Its way worse, not only does he get Reek her lick her out before raping her but the description of the damage he inflicts on her body is sickening.I think he also makes him watch.

So if the show stuck with the books everyone would still be pissed but not as much as it happened to Sansa in the show.
I am not happy that D&D went in this direction but I definitely do understand why. They are sacrificing character development and other bits of story that they can't possibly fit in and merging it into one large arc for the north with all the important bits.

If this is an issue of rape being a problem as a plot device. Funny how we draw the line here but disfigurement, torture, killing, mass murder, incest is ok in the show.

 

[Dartastic]

Compared to some of the other brutal and depraved shit which has been portrayed in the show over the past seasons, I actually thought that scene wasn't all that harrowing and certainly wasn't very graphic or explicit.

Same. In fact, I thought it actually focused on Reek more than on Sansa and kinda made sense, as she just got married. I don't know how else that scene would have panned out. I do hope that she continues on her developmental path that she seems to be taking in the books.

 

[Savitar]

Considering everything that happened in Games of Thrones so far if you are shocked by this you really haven't paid attention. Awful, terrible, vile things are happening constantly and usually to good people. It's brutal. It's uncompromising and it doesn't shy away at all from anything in the slightest.

It's what makes so many tune in really.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Yes.

What a baffling change.

 

[Ratrat]

I knew this would get it's own thread eventually.

I can promise there won't be a single rape scene after this. They got their media attention last time, but you can't do it more than twice.

Arya and Yara(lol) next.

 

[Nemic77]

Outrage culture...