More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)
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SomedayTheFire
Member
Jesus the defence of this is terrible. Not entirely shocking but damn.
The problem isn't that the character was a bad guy who raped her. It's that the show runners decided to put Sansa in that situation in the first place. They inserted rape into the storyline again and, from what we can see so far, it didn't even do anything in the story and ignored a characters multi season arc.
Yeah. That's part of why this is "gratuitous" I think. Been there, done that, we get it already.
My man here gets it.
It's dumb to write an article or make a thread with "outrage" in the title. There's only one possible outcome, people yammering on about "outrage culture" and wanting things "PC" or whatever. All the statements cited by the little NYT piece are people saying "eww" and turning their heads. Nobody's rallying for cancelation or for censorship or anything. Even the Mary Sue piece refers to Game of Thrones as something they otherwise "love".
People criticize the show for its the depiction of homosexuality over in the UNMARKED SPOILERS thread all the time.
Ape Gone Insane
Member
Yes, it was rape.
Phrozenflame500
Member
This put's it better then I did. You can't just start pushing a story in one direction, then jarringly shove it back to where it was before and pretend the last whole season of character development never happened.
Especially considering a recurring complaint regarding Sansa's character is that she's way too passive.
That's the real problem. D&D wrote themselves into a corner by marrying her off to Ramsay and the Bolton's. For as much growth and character development as she's had, there was no logical way she could put that into use against a guy like Ramsay. And so she just ends up being victimized again.
The scene was more about how Theon would react and its absolutely disgusting that rape should be depicted so gratuitously but why isn't there the same outcry against all the violence in the show. A lot of that is completely gratuitous. I'm not just talking about the red wedding but the general vicious acts of violence throughout all seasons.
That's a problem of them merging storylines. In the book the girl being raped is someone Theon cares for and it's done in part, specifically to further torment him.
That's why it made sense to see it from Theons perspective. Now that that "minor character" is Sansa, the whole scene gets more complicated.
Sending Sansa back to the North by marrying her to Bolton is one of the more stupid book alteration they've done.
Warm Machine
Member
She can't escape the place she puts herself in the world. That is the message. She has to plot her own destiny instead of others doing it for her.
Palette Swap
Member
I don't think it's that particular scene by itself in a vacuum so much as the fact the show has been progressively sinking and most changes and deaths appear entirely gratuitous, for the sake of edginess and shock value.
When one character has been established over and over as a sadistic asshole and another has had a character arc that amounts to "I'm a victim, with the agency of a chair", the first character raping the second just feels like a vacuous culmination and you kind of wonder why you're watching the show. If the rest was strong or engaging, people would be more likely to gloss over that stuff but when the rest is bad, you're left with the feeling you're watching some dumb torture porn with armors.
When one character has been established over and over as a sadistic asshole and another has had a character arc that amounts to "I'm a victim, with the agency of a chair", the first character raping the second just feels like a vacuous culmination and you kind of wonder why you're watching the show. If the rest was strong or engaging, people would be more likely to gloss over that stuff but when the rest is bad, you're left with the feeling you're watching some dumb torture porn with armors.
ReadingRambo
Member
Oh come on. It's practically Martin's hallmark to build a character up before either killing them or destroying what they worked for. It's a major theme in the books that "real life sucks".
They (D&D) showed her get married twice.
The argument "she can use this to grow or continue developing" implies that.
Did she really need this to happen to her to advance her character development? No.
In her first marriage, in the books her only act of defiance was not bowing so that Tyrion could put the veil on her. That was the only thing she was able to do to show her displeasure with the situation. They took that out of the show.
She's well aware that for most of her life she's been a pawn. In fact, it's revealed she doesn't even trust Littlefinger completely. But the show just...ugh.
She had no choice. It was clear she had no choice. Come on. Littlefinger tells her of his plan to marry her off in the books. Not a day before she meets
Harry
Look at her interaction with
Harry in TWOW
Wiktor
Member
GoT takes place in a world where terrible heineus things happen on everyday basis. To expect sexual violence to somehow not happen is weird. Especially since they didn't actually show the rape and it was obviously portrayed as something terrible. This is actually far more tasteful than what they did with Cersei/Jaimie scene, which felt like something from Monty Python Life of Brian's "You were... raped?! Well, at first, yes"
The quotes in the OP are literally people saying they're done wasting their energy on this show...
Why are you wasting energy on some thread about people not watching a show when there's real shit in the world to apply that energy to?
Jawmuncher
Member
Yeah haven't watched the show in awhile but read all the books.
Lost as hell now and questioning the change. Especially when I found Sansa very interesting by the last book so far.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
We have a very different relationship to violence culturally than we do to sexual assault. There's a whole host of things, but probably the big one is that as a culture we're a lot better at dealing with victims of violence then we are at dealing with victims of sexual assault (well unless they're black)
ReadingRambo
Member
Because people think that someone that creates or depicts something also condones that thing. It's doing my head in.
I should clarify, I agree in the story they will "redeem" him, there is 0 chance I will buy it.
Some people had a problem with that. I thought it made sense at the time, but now it seems like a problematic pattern of turning "consummating an arranged marriage would be considered rape under our modern standards" into just plain rape.
afternoon delight
Member
Taken from books where rape and mutulation are probably mentioned nearly every stroll through the scorched Riverlands, or the southern slave markets, or in royals' castles, or in the docks, or in the slums, or on the warpath, or in the hinterlands...
I think people are upset because it's Sansa, she's tho preciouth.
Scene pissed me off for reasons different than most people, I think. What pisses me off is that she's the only character on the show who's story has basically stayed the same since season 1. A tool, a victim, a character who seems to exist solely so the world can take a giant shit on her head. 5 seasons of this now. I mean how is that good TV? If you can't think of anything new for her then just be done with it and kill the character off already cause personally I'm getting really tired of watching the shit on Sansa show.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
If Ms. Mcaskill wants to stop watching, fine, but she does not know the meaning of the word "gratuitous."
Dirtyshubb
Member
I had no problem with the scene, it was disgusting, horrible and uncomfortable but that was the whole point. Sansa is sacrificing herself to help little finger play the game and shows how much she is willing to endure for him. As for theon it's clear this is going to be the straw that broke the camals back.
As for saying it should have cut earlier or shown it from sansas perspective, we Arr basically theon at that point, helpless (in his tortured mind) to help and must stand and watch as someone we cared for since a child is brutally tortured in front of us.
As for saying it should have cut earlier or shown it from sansas perspective, we Arr basically theon at that point, helpless (in his tortured mind) to help and must stand and watch as someone we cared for since a child is brutally tortured in front of us.
it feels honest to the characters and world. i think it's a lot better than the last thinkpiece storm over jaime-cersei, which was totally stupid and pointless (i.e dishonest to the characters and world)
game of thrones is very frivolous about sexual violence. it's frivolous about a lot of horrible things. it's a very trashy show. in it's fifth season. like from the offstep the show has decided to tell a story in a world where women are treated like absolute garbage and violence is ubiquitous but also where nothing really gets thoroughly explored with nuance as it's more about a fast moving story with tons of characters and big plot shifts. i feel hard to feel any weariness or shock at something emerging naturally from this, it feels like accepting this stuff is essential to watching 50 hours of it or whatever. it's exactly what the show is on a fundamental level.
it's perfectly fine to have a problem with game of thrones and think it's horrible in its treatment of sexual violence, i kinda agree. i just feel like people want to have their cake and eat it here. they want to enjoy the fundamentals of game of thrones that makes it watchable tv, except when it hits on a current political hot button issue in which case the exact same thing they've enjoyed is morally disgusting.
game of thrones is very frivolous about sexual violence. it's frivolous about a lot of horrible things. it's a very trashy show. in it's fifth season. like from the offstep the show has decided to tell a story in a world where women are treated like absolute garbage and violence is ubiquitous but also where nothing really gets thoroughly explored with nuance as it's more about a fast moving story with tons of characters and big plot shifts. i feel hard to feel any weariness or shock at something emerging naturally from this, it feels like accepting this stuff is essential to watching 50 hours of it or whatever. it's exactly what the show is on a fundamental level.
it's perfectly fine to have a problem with game of thrones and think it's horrible in its treatment of sexual violence, i kinda agree. i just feel like people want to have their cake and eat it here. they want to enjoy the fundamentals of game of thrones that makes it watchable tv, except when it hits on a current political hot button issue in which case the exact same thing they've enjoyed is morally disgusting.
Read my posts, my criticisms are from a writing perspective and FAR from damned if they do, damned if they don't
To sum up:
1. The scene neither advances the narrative, nor informs us on the characters involved, making it rather unnecessary, which is likely why so many people find it gratuitous. Even the baby murder scene is about telling you "YES THESE PEOPLE ARE BABY MURDERING KINDS OF EVIL" which you may not have assumed.
2. IF they were going to have the scene, they should have at least had the stones to put us in Sansa's shoes instead of Theon's. At least then we'd be getting some kind of new information from it. How she's feeling, what she's thinking ("Oh god no!" vs "I'm going to kill you one day" to make 2 unsubtle, extreme examples). Something.
It's a way too show that the "savage barbarians" aren't just the Dothrakis
remember how you can expect a death at every Dothraki Wedding, and how that was seen as chilling, well look at the weddings in Westeros right now!
PhoenixDark
Banned
I forgot about that, admittedly. Yet even that chapter ends before Theon starts his "task" or Ramsay continues the abuse, nor do you see any other assaults on her on page iirc.
D&D are on record as saying they brought Sansa to Winterfell to make her story more interesting/give the actress something to do/spice things up. And apparently having her raped is apart of that huh. It's pathetic.
It's pretty amusing how divorced many people are from the realities of history. GoT even makes this stuff easier to swallow under the veneer of fantasy.
Do people actually pay attention to what's going on in the show? Sansa inserted herself into this situation. This is the obvious outcome of an arranged marriage. It marks a pivotal role in her character development because she chose this path, and she is willing to suffer to restore her family name and create opportunities for revenge. This is also a new breaking point for Theon, one that pulls him away from being Reek as he meets the unavoidable mistakes of his past.
I_D
Member
Only because she's an established character. I will agree that changing the original source material is unwarranted; the books' storyline was far more engaging than the show's.
However, it can be assumed that nearly every royal couple in this universe is the result of pre-arranged marriages, since that's how royalty works. It can therefore be assumed that basically all the women were raped.
This is also why the show doesn't focus on the aftermath of being raped: It's just a normal part of life for women. There is no outrage to be had, because it's expected of women to just shut up and take it; it's their job, basically. That's why both Daenerys and Sansa just bent over and waited for it.
It's supposed to be appalling. It shows how people have actually acted in the past, and how, in certain places, people still act today.
Arthr2ShdsJcksn
Banned
I would argue that rape is horrible, just as horrible as murder. Not more, not less, but just as horrible. Yet, viewers gladly gobble up murder after murder, but balk at this. I think that is more problematic than the depiction of rape.
Some people are saying that the use of rape as a trope here is a cheap shortcut to tug at our emotions. Well, so are all the killings. I think, if anything, there could be a lot more criticism of the series as a whole for constantly using violence of all types for shock value.
I also think its a bit weird that people are comparing this fantasy universe to actual history.
Some people are saying that the use of rape as a trope here is a cheap shortcut to tug at our emotions. Well, so are all the killings. I think, if anything, there could be a lot more criticism of the series as a whole for constantly using violence of all types for shock value.
I also think its a bit weird that people are comparing this fantasy universe to actual history.
MHWilliams
Member
I mean, you came in to post this. How much of your life did that take up?
Now imagine you posted a few tweets to say you were done with GOT. Same amount of effort.
So why are you wasting your energy?
Boredom is my answer, by the by.
Because I come here to figure out what the big deal is, only to see that people are wasting their energy turning this mole hill into a Gregor clegane sized mountain..
Had to share my valid opinion just like the rest of yous, only mine has no emotion attached to it because again, it's a fictitious show..
Hey when something is laughably ridiculous as this topic of conversation, I'm hoping there's someone around to point it out to people before pitchforks get raised at the smallest of nuances
The rape in this scene is depicted as something truly awful and the rapist as an utterly repugnant human being.
The rapist is not depicted as a hero and the rape is as gut-wrenching as a rape would be. I don't know what people want except for there not to be any rape depictions in media at all. And that would be unacceptable censorship.
The rapist is not depicted as a hero and the rape is as gut-wrenching as a rape would be. I don't know what people want except for there not to be any rape depictions in media at all. And that would be unacceptable censorship.
Yeah, this was about the absolute opposite of gratuitous.
And not to defend the scene itself, although it did serve a purpose for Theon's character in particular, but what did people expect when it was revealed that Ramsay was gonna marry Sansa?
Actually GRRM expected there to be way more seasons until the producers very publically stated that it would be seven, maaaaaaybe eight but most likely seven and he's not in a position that would allow him any kind of control anyway, he sold the rights, HBO calls the shots.
Speculation. We don't know what comes as a direct result of this yet.
Read the chapter.
He asks "No?" And Dany pulls him closer and says "Yes"
My post from the other thread
I would agree with those who said that Sansa getting raped in a place where she doesn't even appear in the books is unnecessary.
However, it does give her a real reason to despise Ramsay, and it also creates a connection between Theon and Sansa which wasn't previously established in the show. It also serves Theon's redemption arc. As to whether it forces Sansa back into the status of victim, we'll have to see how the rest of this season plays out.
It's very difficult to say what comprises the entire Sansa rape scene.
On the one hand, any woman being forced to have sex without wanting it constitutes rape. That is beyond dispute, and it could happen to a prostitute or a noble wife.
On the other hand, Ramsay could have been gentle and eased Sansa into the process as a young lover her own age would. He could have been gentle with her. Having sex for the first time hurts all girls, so it would have always been unpleasant.
Ramsay rips off her clothes, does the deed aggressively and violently, and makes Theon watch. These three things destroy any sense of acceptance she could have had with the whole situation.
However, Ramsay always does things like this when he has sex. He likes being hit, bitten, and cut during the act. He also likes to beat up his partners. So it's tough to say whether he himself considers it rape or his right as a husband. He's a sick man.
What if Edmure's bride didn't want to lose her virginity right away? I'm sure he would have been patient with her.
I dunno...it's a thorny issue, to be sure, but what's clear is that Sansa now has a clear motivation to despise Ramsay.
On the one hand, any woman being forced to have sex without wanting it constitutes rape. That is beyond dispute, and it could happen to a prostitute or a noble wife.
On the other hand, Ramsay could have been gentle and eased Sansa into the process as a young lover her own age would. He could have been gentle with her. Having sex for the first time hurts all girls, so it would have always been unpleasant.
Ramsay rips off her clothes, does the deed aggressively and violently, and makes Theon watch. These three things destroy any sense of acceptance she could have had with the whole situation.
However, Ramsay always does things like this when he has sex. He likes being hit, bitten, and cut during the act. He also likes to beat up his partners. So it's tough to say whether he himself considers it rape or his right as a husband. He's a sick man.
What if Edmure's bride didn't want to lose her virginity right away? I'm sure he would have been patient with her.
I dunno...it's a thorny issue, to be sure, but what's clear is that Sansa now has a clear motivation to despise Ramsay.
I would agree with those who said that Sansa getting raped in a place where she doesn't even appear in the books is unnecessary.
However, it does give her a real reason to despise Ramsay, and it also creates a connection between Theon and Sansa which wasn't previously established in the show. It also serves Theon's redemption arc. As to whether it forces Sansa back into the status of victim, we'll have to see how the rest of this season plays out.
excelsiorlef
Member
Yes that's right, that's what people are saying, that the creators of the show are in real life pro-rape. You cut right through the veil there.
I know, its was a joke. People who may not have read the books may have different options based on their experience of them.
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