More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)

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ultron87 said:
All of the things you listed further the plot and/or give us insight into the characters that these things happen to or those that committed them. Unless things go wildly differently then everyone is suspecting, this rape is probably going to just be another item on the already amply long "Ramsey is horrible" list and won't alter the trajectory that Sansa was already on. I could be surprised and the way Sansa reacts to this could be well written, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Consummating the marriage is a step on the path to getting what she wants, or at least that's what Littlefinger convinced her of. She had to marry Ramsay as part of the plan and marriage requires consummation.

What other way is there for her to aquire power other than marriage? Dany got power by marrying Drogo and even now is marrying Hizdar to consolidate it, and she has the luxury of having the only dragons in the world. Cersei got power through her marriage to Robert. Margaery got power through engagements/marriages to Renly, Joffrey, now Tommen.

Sorry, that's how it works in medieval settings. That doesn't make it "bad writing" because you wish a woman could have something nice happen to them for once.
 
It would have made much more sense if:

A. Ramsey whispered sweet nothings into her ear as he gently took her childhood.
B. Sansa, with the knowledge of hearsay and off color stories overheard, seduced Ramsey with her sexual prowess.

The dude intentionally made her walk the isle to a wedding he knows she wants to be no part of with the person whom is responsible for her brother's deaths. The second she got married I thought ... ohh fuck he's gonna rape her.
 
RedShift said:
My big issue with it is (speculation based on reading the book)
this won't be used to develop Sansa's character at all, it's probably going to just end up part of Theon's redemption story. The same was arguably true in the book, but Jeyne didn't have a character to develop anyway.

Also anyone who doesn't think it was rape genuinely creeps me out. Including the show creators. Especially them actually, they keep doing that.
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Considering that they've changed Sansa's story a fair amount in the TV show already; I think they actually may have made it less tropey by having this be a catalyst to develop both Theon and Sansa, as opposed to introducing a separate minor character to get raped just to further Theon's story. That would have sparked just as much outrage (of a different nature) about women being used only to develop men. Also, unlike any of us, the showrunners mostly know where Sansa's story is going in TWOW outside just the single chapter GRRM has shown. They may be setting up for that end game. Let's be honest; we're all assuming Sansa gets a happy ending in the books. Has this series taught us nothing?
 
This shit is beyond stupid. This show has featured torture castration and mass murder, but ifs a rape scene that gets people upset. Fuck off. Go watch something else already. This internet outrage thing is infantile.
 
Lothar said:
It's shocking that the show writers would put her in a situation like that. That doesn't mean it's bad. RW was shocking. It's bad because it was done just for shock and because Sansa's motivations make no sense.

Here's a post I liked on somethingawful summing the problem up of her motivations.
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Littlefinger told her the motivations. Why she had to be here, while he plays the double-triple-quadruple-i don't even know how many faces this man has... I mean, he's not Jaqen H'ghar, yet he has the power to play even more roles
 
stilgar said:
So:


Entertainment
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Don't forget "belittling little people"

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or dwarf genocide

503_Dwarf_1_Oppo_head.jpg
 
The preview of next episode plainly shows her regaining some control. I'm curious to see how it plays out.
 
ultron87 said:
All of the things you listed further the plot and/or give us insight into the characters that these things happen to or those that committed them. Unless things go wildly differently then everyone is suspecting, this rape is probably going to just be another item on the already amply long "Ramsey is horrible" list and won't alter the trajectory that Sansa was already on. I could be surprised and the way Sansa reacts to this could be well written, but I'm not holding my breath.
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How does Sansa submitting to the rape not tell us something about her character. How does Theons reaction not tell us something about his? I mean most of the times that some random gets killed, all it tells us is that the character who did it is willing to kill someone.
 
Lothar said:
It's shocking that the show writers would put her in a situation like that. That doesn't mean it's bad. RW was shocking. It's bad because it was done just for shock and because Sansa's motivations make no sense.

Here's a post I liked on somethingawful summing the problem up of her motivations.
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As has already been pointed out in this thread and the show itself -- especially since it's, like, a pretty crucial plot point -- there's nothing mysterious about Sansa's motivations here; there's no ??? to her plan. Her and Littlefinger's strategy was quite clearly spelled out as, "Take whatever shit the Boltons give you now and just wait a couple weeks until Stannis arrives with his army."

Or in other words:

1. Become Bolton's prisoner
2. Endure their treatment, including rape
3. Stannis arrives, retakes Winterfell, restores control (sort of) to Sansa, maybe even let her give the execution order on Roose and Ramsay if they're still alive at this point
4. Revenge is mine!
 
hendersonhank said:
Consummating the marriage is a step on the path to getting what she wants, or at least that's what Littlefinger convinced her of. She had to marry Ramsay as part of the plan and marriage requires consummation.

What other way is there for her to aquire power other than marriage? Dany got power by marrying Drogo and even now is marrying Hizdar to consolidate it, and she has the luxury of having the only dragons in the world. Cersei got power through her marriage to Robert. Margaery got power through engagements/marriages to Renly, Joffrey, now Tommen.

Sorry, that's how it works in medieval settings. That doesn't make it "bad writing" because you wish a woman could have something nice happen to them for once.
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Where did I say I wish something nice had happened?

If she knew what was necessary and it was all part of her plan they should have shown that she was prepared for what was happening instead of ending the episode with her getting her dress ripped off and her screaming. Just shooting it a little differently and it would've been fine. Show some grim determination on her face through her pain or something. Show that she is a woman choosing to go something to further her goals instead of focusing the emotions of the scene on Theon.
 
The Adder said:
If the goal is using that scene for the sake of developing both characters, it's still a scene about Sansa and Sansa should be the focus. Whatever effects seeing it had on Theon are secondary. Discussed or flashed back to later.
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The problem is that scene is purely a Theon scene in the books that works rather well toward his character arc- I'm glad they didn't sanitizes the creepiness of the scene.

For those who thought it was done for pure shock value, how did you survive though all the Theon torture scenes? Those were never gratuitously depicted in the books- only eluded too. The Theon-Ramsey-Fake Arya sex scene was the only "on screen" moment readers got to "see" cruel Ramsey in action.

I can understand people have a problem with Sansa being plugged into Fake Arya role, thus losing her own unique story plot, but thematically it still works. A Stark daughter (real or in name only) is needed to bring together the North's plot lines. Someone that the audience recognizes Theon cares about is also needed.

I just don't get the revulsion to this one depiction of rape in the series. All the the rape in the series has been revolting. Martin doesn't included it for shock value; he includes it cause it is a terrible thing that happens in the world.
 
"Trivalizes rape"? What about all the other horrible depictions of violence in this show? Sometimes the anti rape culture thing is just embarrassing.
 
Grimm Fandango said:
"Trivalizes rape"? What about all the other horrible depictions of violence in this show? Sometimes the anti rape culture thing is just embarrassing.
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This is my reaction for the most part, although I don't know what you mean by "anti-rape culture." I would hope that includes that vast majority of us and, at the very least, everyone posting here.
 
ultron87 said:
Where did I say I wish something nice had happened?

If she knew what was necessary and it was all part of her plan they should have shown that she was prepared for what was happening instead of ending the episode with her getting her dress ripped off and her screaming. Just shooting it a little differently and it would've been fine. Show some grim determination on her face through her pain or something. Show that she is a woman choosing to go something to further her goals instead of focusing the emotions of the scene on Theon.
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He ripped her dress off because she wasn't doing it fast enough and that's how he is. She screamed because it fucking hurt. Being prepared wouldn't change either of those things.

We focused on Theon because presumably this kind of breaks him out of Reek mode. And because if it were 40 seconds of Sansa's screaming face while she's being fucked, there would be even more weird meltdowns than there are now.
 
ultron87 said:
Where did I say I wish something nice had happened?

If she knew what was necessary and it was all part of her plan they should have shown that she was prepared for what was happening instead of ending the episode with her getting her dress ripped off and her screaming. Just shooting it a little differently and it would've been fine. Show some grim determination on her face through her pain or something. Show that she is a woman choosing to go something to further her goals instead of focusing the emotions of the scene on Theon.
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Actually that would work, shoot it on her face, no screaming or crying but cold determination, as if she knew this is what she had to do. That would be a fucked up but effective scene.
 
Blader said:
This thread is the first I'm hearing of people being emotionally invested in Sansa. :lol

I'm not, like, rooting for her to be fucked over or anything, but up until this season and maybe the very end of last season, I don't think I ever much cared about her story.
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Its not Sansa in particular, its just the Stark family. But lets ignore that for a second... In the books, shes finally becoming relevant.. You want to see the Starks succeed, and when they fail it hurts all that much more. I mean, i may dislike sansa as a character, but I would be lying if I said I feel she deserves better than what happens to her in the books. You keep wanting her to come into her own as a Stark (Rickon as well)

In my opinion, if you don't give a shit about Sansa (or Rickon) than you just aren't paying enough attention. The starks as a whole are important, not just Arya and jon.
 
why is it ok to show heads being chopped off, especially in the current climate; but a rape scene which wasn't graphic is the end of the world?
 
So in the books it's another character that's raped. So they excised that character's entire plotline, but kept the rape in?

I can see it being sensationalist from that perspective.

But overall, bad things happen on this show to everyone, the best swordfighters lose their hands, infamous lovers lose their cocks, virgins are raped. Whatever thing is valuable to a character is inverted and destroys them.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Didn't Khali Drogo basically do something similar in the first season?
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I thought it was made quite clear that, on their wedding night, there were communication barriers (basically, Drogo didn't know any English word besides "no") and he at least attempted to comfort her before consummating the marriage. Likewise, Daenerys learns to use her sexuality to control Drogo to an extent. The Sansa plotline seems to be the inverse of that - she goes through all sorts of situations that test her physical and mental limits, and learns to be stronger as a result, but when push comes to shove, she rolls over and lets herself be a victim again.

This is just part of a larger problem with this season, where the showrunners have a superficial view of the storylines they're adapting.
Barristan Selmy goes out like a bitch in a back-alley, supposedly to further the ironic nature of the death, even though he's repeatedly known to be one of the greatest swordsmen in the land and had much more of a plot in the books. The Riverlands arc, where Jamie finally learns to be his own man and disregard Cersei's influence, is shunted aside for the Dorne arc with horrid acting and fight scenes.
 
excelsiorlef said:
Actually that would work, shoot it on her face, no screaming or crying but cold determination, as if she knew this is what she had to do. That would be a fucked up but effective scene.
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It would also be ridiculous and wholly unrealistic. She's losing her virginity to someone she loathes who is making every effort to make it hurt. Having her not be crying or screaming would be stupid.
 
hendersonhank said:
He ripped her dress off because she wasn't doing it fast enough and that's how he is. She screamed because it fucking hurt. Being prepared wouldn't change either of those things.

We focused on Theon because presumably this kind of breaks him out of Reek mode. And because if it were 40 seconds of Sansa's screaming face while she's being fucked, there would be even more weird meltdowns than there are now.
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You realize that these are scenes people are writing, right? If Sansa's story is actually about her making a choice and enduring a shitty situation to go through with a plan you need to show that. Instead they showed a scene where a frightened girl gets raped by a guy we already know is a shithead and made the actual emotional portion of the scene focus on Theon.
 
ultron87 said:
Where did I say I wish something nice had happened?

If she knew what was necessary and it was all part of her plan they should have shown that she was prepared for what was happening instead of ending the episode with her getting her dress ripped off and her screaming. Just shooting it a little differently and it would've been fine. Show some grim determination on her face through her pain or something. Show that she is a woman choosing to go something to further her goals instead of focusing the emotions of the scene on Theon.
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They did. She looks stoic as hell when they enter, and she silently complies with his demands to undress stonefaced.

Given the way people have already reacted to the scene in question, I don't think audiences would have reacted all that well to an on-screen pillow biting/dead eyes scene. Dany's scene being on-screen was a good way to contrast their later loving relationship. I don't think anyone has any hope left that Ramsay is that dude.

Edit: A stone-faced virgin doesn't even make sense. Obviously, sex hurts the first time.
 
hendersonhank said:
It would also be ridiculous and wholly unrealistic. She's losing her virginity to someone she loathes who is making every effort to make it hurt. Having her not be crying or screaming would be stupid.
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But if the point is to push her into taking action or whatever, then that's the time to do it, it's hella less lazy then rape = now I'm ready to act.
 
funkypie said:
why is it ok to show heads being chopped off, especially in the current climate; but a rape scene which wasn't graphic is the end of the world?
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Most likely because having your head chopped off isn't a particularly relevant concern for most people around the world taking the time to enjoy the latest episode of Game of Thrones.

Probably just a case of "rape" feeling closer to home and more real to people watching this show than things like war and murder and such.
 
Girls are sick of it. They have to watch other girls get raped all the time in shows and movies, to make the world "dark, and realistic" Literally every girl I follow on twitter that watches the show hated this. Maybe listen to them?
 
Blader said:
As has already been pointed out in this thread and the show itself -- especially since it's, like, a pretty crucial plot point -- there's nothing mysterious about Sansa's motivations here; there's no ??? to her plan. Her and Littlefinger's strategy was quite clearly spelled out as, "Take whatever shit the Boltons give you now and just wait a couple weeks until Stannis arrives with his army."

Or in other words:

1. Become Bolton's prisoner
2. Endure their treatment, including rape
3. Stannis arrives, retakes Winterfell, restores control (sort of) to Sansa, maybe even let her give the execution order on Roose and Ramsay if they're still alive at this point
4. Revenge is mine!
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That is the most laughable plan. If Stannis retakes Winterfell, he'll kill all of the Boltons regardless of whatever Sansa does. Which is all Sansa wants: for them to die. It'll happen without her doing anything. Sansa is a brain dead character if a plan is simply to wait for Stannis to kill the Boltons. She could do that from the Vale, lol. The plan is better off being ????
 
Opto said:
Girls are sick of it. They have to watch other girls get raped all the time in shows and movies, to make the world "dark, and realistic" Literally every girl I follow on twitter that watches the show hated this. Maybe listen to them?
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Listen to them about what? That they hate it? OK?

Should all creative content take into consideration what people may or may not hate?
 
excelsiorlef said:
But if the point is to push her into taking action or whatever, then that's the time to do it, it's hella less lazy then rape = now I'm ready to act.
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What would you actually suggest she do in this situation that was remotely feasible? She's not a trained assassin or anything.

She clearly expected the marriage to be consummated but Ramsay clearly does everything in his power to make it uncomfortable for her in the situation, thus her unwillingness.
 
I don't rarely pop in to complain about thread tittles, but I want to say "thank you " to the OP who felt entitled enough to spoil this week's Game of Thrones I haven't watched yet.

Like seriously...
 
PsychoSoldier said:
What would you actually suggest she do in this situation that was remotely feasible? She's not a trained assassin or anything.

She clearly expected the marriage to be consummated but Ramsay clearly does everything in his power to make it uncomfortable for her in the situation, thus her unwillingness.
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I'm saying if this marriage is her plan and the sex has to come with it or what not make it part of her doing what must be done instead of turning it in to yet another young girl is raped while screaming and crying.

Which is made even worse when the whole thing is focused on the third party dude watching it, which heavily implies the scene is more for his development
 
Purexed said:
I don't rarely pop in to complain about thread tittles, but I want to say "thank you " to the OP who felt entitled enough to spoil this week's Game of Thrones I haven't watched yet.

Like seriously...
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How is that a spoiler of any meaningful nature? Or was it changed to the current one?
 
excelsiorlef said:
I'm saying if this marriage is her plan and the sex has to come with it or what not make it part of her doing what must be done instead of turning it in to yet another young girl is raped while screaming and crying.

Which is made even worse when the whole thing is focused on the third party dude watching it, which heavily implies the scene is more for his development
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Reading comments like this make me think the writers were damned if they do damned if they don't.

-They could of made some weird miraculous rescue and it would of felt cheap.
-They could of focused on just Sansa, but I feel the outrage would of been even bigger.
-They chose to focus on Reek to be less gratuitous, but now they get called out for centering on him and not her.
 
Purexed said:
I don't rarely pop in to complain about thread tittles, but I want to say "thank you " to the OP who felt entitled enough to spoil this week's Game of Thrones I haven't watched yet.

Like seriously...
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The original title from the OP was actually more vague, a mod made that edit.

excelsiorlef said:
Actually that would work, shoot it on her face, no screaming or crying but cold determination, as if she knew this is what she had to do. That would be a fucked up but effective scene.
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I could very easily see how even more people might interpret that as trivializing rape.
 
Ferrio said:
Reading comments like this make me think the writer's were damned if they do damned if they don't.

-They could of made some weird miraculous rescue and it would of felt cheap.
-They could of focused on just Sansa, but I feel the outrage would of been even bigger.
-They chose to focus on Reek to be less gratuitous, but now they get called out for centering on him and not her.
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They could've just pushed the marriage and not had any of it.
 
Opto said:
Girls are sick of it. They have to watch other girls get raped all the time in shows and movies, to make the world "dark, and realistic" Literally every girl I follow on twitter that watches the show hated this. Maybe listen to them?
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It was obviously supposed to make people uncomfortable. You're supposed to hate it. Sounds like they succeeded.
 
ivysaur12 said:
They could've just pushed the marriage and not had any of it.
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Which again would be out of character for Ramsey. Not to mention Sansa's virginity has been on a pedastool the whole series, and you think they should just sweep that issue under the rug with a offhand comment or something?
 
Opto said:
Girls are sick of it. They have to watch other girls get raped all the time in shows and movies, to make the world "dark, and realistic" Literally every girl I follow on twitter that watches the show hated this. Maybe listen to them?
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To what extent? Should we also listen to the people complaining about the overall violence? What about the people that think religion is being portrayed negatively? What about the people who think little people being abused should be taken out too? Hell, if we're just going to gut the show, why not the ones who don't like fantasy or period settings!
 
Isn't this the same show that is too afraid to show an erect penis because of the response it may have? That makes me even more surprised that they would depict rape
 
hendersonhank said:
So she should have fought him off? It would make sense to deliberately seek out this marriage and then literally invalidate it on day one? Why even go there in the first place then?
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That's the point - the plot was needless in the first place, because it's an inverse of the character we've seen built up and the total about-face from the books without any understanding of why Sansa's plot (or Ramsey's brutality, which mostly occurred offscreen) worked well there.
 
The show is starting to piss me off now.

There's too many changes from what's in the books.

What's the point in making a TV series about the books if you're not fucking following them?

Edit: Also the amount of people that this scene goes right over their head is fucking baffling.

Ohmergawd I'm such offended at this protrayal of a rape scene which is needed for a major character arc, but I don't care about the brothels or the fighting or the heads being chopped off or the kids being killed or the rights of dwarfs or people having their hands cut off or incest or mockery of religion etc etc etc.

its daylight hypocrisy at its finest.
 
ivysaur12 said:
They could've just pushed the marriage and not had any of it.
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Then you lose the Theon redemption angle.

I understand people not wanting to see this. That doesn't mean it's not the most effective way to demonstrate 1. Theon's change of heart and/or 2. Sansa's determination to suffer anything to get what she wants.

If that's what they are going for, which I think they are.
 
Ferrio said:
Which again would be out of character. Not to mention Sansa's virginity has been on a pedastool the whole series, and you think they should just sweep that issue under the rug with a offhand comment or something?
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I don't think there was any need to have the two of them get married in this episode -- in fact, I was pretty surprised it happened at all and thought it was too quick. Why not have the marriage take place after the inevitable fight at Winterfell and once whatever happens, you deal with it then?

I don't know what you get, narratively, from marrying Ramsay to Sansa and I don't certainly don't understand what you get from kicking Sansa down, again.

Ralemont said:
Then you lose the Theon redemption angle.
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There are other ways to do that... Also, this isn't really about Theon, it's about Sansa.
 
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