More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)

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Zefah said:
In this very thread and more or less what that blog post being linked was saying?

I honestly don't see what the source material has to do with anything. Nor do I see what the scenes involvement of a major character does to make it a "cheap attempt."

It's pure condescension to assume that the writers had no reasons for coming up with this scene other than shock value.

I totally understand if people don't want to watch the show as a result of content like this, but it seems like a hell of a time start raising a fuss all of the sudden. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to equate their personal statement of "I don't like it," with a more objective statement of "they shouldn't do this."
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Because it's supposed to be an adaptation? When you're going that far off of the rails, there needs to be a good reason for it. We don't know that reason is yet obviously, but it needs to be pretty damn good to satisfy people. And people aren't really willing to give the benefit of the doubt to subjects concerning sexual assault because 1. the show is already known to have added one rape scene that wasn't in the books, and 2. some media do use it as a "cheap" and easy way to raise the stakes or as a go to "this guy is like, really bad" characterization device, rather than as a vital plot and characterization point for the advancement of the story.
Obviously there's no way to tell yet, but painting outrage or criticism as something as reactionary as "people think bad things other than violence shouldn't be shown" is simplifying it.
 
Nodnol said:
This all feels a little premature.

To have anyone raped just because is one thing, and to have it happen as part of an extended character arc is another. At the moment, we simply don't know which way it's to go.

The show has condensed story lines and merged characters because it's necessary for the show, or so D&D think. I largely agree wth the decision; not everything is as I would have done it, but I get the reasoning.

That means good and bad. If a character reaches point C from A, but utilizes storyline B from the books of a different character, then it's par for the course. Sure it's not Sansa that's subjected to far worse in the book, but the other characters involved are there, and for all we know the show will lean on their development too regarding these events.

I don't see how anything has been trivialized yet, at least not without seeing the full season and/or character developments. It didn't make light of the act, nor did it normalize it; the scene was pretty fucking clear how it was (Alfie Allen's face/acting painted a better picture than any words).

It's a dramatic and horrible scene, as it should be, but I think there are some book readers that are pissed at the differences appearing throughout this season. Such a drastic event, to a main character, just exacerbates the issue. I get why people are pissed, each to their own and all, but for good or for worse the show needs to find a way to present two pretty messy books into a format that works on TV. If they end up using this recent event as a catalyst for Sansa transitioning as a character, then I see it as no different to what she's been through, whether it was written by GRRM or adapted by D&D.
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Yeah, I really agree here. Rape is a particularly touchy subject, but it's an important one for the series. Horrific plot devices are used constantly, and this isn't much different, except it's happening to a different character than expected.
 
Pyramid head said:
These are the same writers who decided to have a pregnant woman repeatedly stabbed in the stomach are they not?
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That scene had more than shock value going for it.
It really put into perspective the dynamics the world GoT operated in, compared to other low fantasy stories.

I also don't understand people using "shock value" as a bad word.
Shock value has its purposes, like any other narrative tools.
 
I think this is bringing out a lot of fair weather fans who are missing Joffrey and Tywin, but this season is not a total shitfest like some of you are saying.

It's just had some head-scratching moments, and the book purists are piling on.
 
JJDinomite said:
I used to like Game of Thrones but not anymore.
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I find the level of outrage about this a bit odd after the Dany/Drogo arc earlier in the show. Drogo raped Dany on their wedding night...then she ended up falling in love with him, and the show portrayed him as a strong and relatively admirable character. If people are really concerned about the messages a tv show is sending, isn't that a more offensive one than showing that a vile character loathed by everyone is a rapist?
 
One thing I do want to bring up is that that story-wise, this event makes sense. It's not pointless. They're building Sansa up as a political power player and in Westeros, political power for a woman comes mainly through marriage. There's a contrast here with Dany's storyline where she's marrying that one dude to try and hedge her bets with the traditionalists in Mereen. The interesting arc here is that both Sansa/Littlefinger and the Boltens are trying to use the marriage between Sansa and Ramsey as a play for political power in the region. Yes, unfortunately that requires that the marriage be consummated because that is simply the way the world works. Sansa knew what she was getting into. Miranda straight up told Sansa that Ramsey was a monster.

While I know that this statement is going to clash heavily with modern values, her action of getting married and accepting what happens afterwards is giving her agency in the story... even though it comes at a high price. We're attached to this character and after she's dodged the bullet on being preyed upon sexually so many times, seeing her finally taking that bullet from someone so absolutely repulsive is upsetting. I totally understand why people are outraged. And I think they absolutely should stop watching if they feel it's going too far. But I think before people declare that this was a "pointless scene added for shock value" they need to see what the end game Sansa and Littlefinger are playing is and how they're going to use this marriage to their advantage.
 
I'm sorry but this was some of the tamest shit we've seen in GOT so far. Slaughtering people left and right, gouging out eyes and crushing skulls etc. I think the scene had the desired effect. It showed what Sansa was willing to sacrifice to get back what was stolen from her family and it gave us even more desire to see Ramsey dead, a hate that was previously reserved for Joffrey.
 
Cybit said:
I don't know if Game of Thrones (or especially ASOIAF) has a mission statement, but the bolded is pretty close to one.
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Yeah, I know.

Night Angel said:
I take it you didn't read the books.

The good guys are fucked
. Not really a spoiler.
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I haven't and that's what I've assumed. I might stop watching the show after this season because every time I think, "Oh man won't it be cool if GoodPerson X does Y?" and then I remember that "mission statement" and get disappointed because what I imagined will never happen because it would be good for GoodPerson X.
 
UrbanRats said:
That scene had more than shock value going for it.
It really put into perspective the dynamics the world GoT operated in, compared to other low fantasy stories.

I also don't understand people using "shock value" as a bad word.
Shock value has its purposes, like any other narrative tools.
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The red wedding achieved all that and more as it was. Adding the part I mentioned only served to make it a smidge more shocking.
 
well, i was more shocked by other scenes and characters so far, this is GoT, its full of difficult scenes to watch, some could be seen as uneccessary, but following the series, there have been far worse imo.

Maybe another issue is that they used Sansa for this instead of another character in the book.
 
I was more taken back by the response more so than the actual scene which was tame by all accounts in comparison to other things depicted on the show.
 
Brian Griffin said:
My wife says she felt pretty disturbed despite knowing the show is full of violence and shock. She didn't expect to feel like she did. I don't feel surprised or outraged, mostly just disappointed. I know the show has always been about terrible people doing terrible things but it's just starting to get boring when it's not mixed in with good people "winning" every now and then.

They lead you on with hints that
Sansa's
life might finally be getting a bit better and then they pull the rug out from under you (as they've done SO many times before) as if to say "Haha, fuck you for getting your hopes up. We're gonna rape her instead and make you watch!"

Cool story guys, you are really breaking exciting new ground in TV writing. /s

I don't know. I'd like to think I could expect more from one of the most popular and successful shows in history but maybe I'm wrong.
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That's what makes GOT different though. It's fantasy, but closer to reality in that the good guys don't always win. In fact, our very real history is littered with the good guys getting much much worse. GOT takes a more human take on a fantasy world and doesn't try to hit you with unicorns and rainbows.
 
Not a book reader so i don't know how Sansa turns our, but i took the scene different then most. I took it as Sansa's rock bottom it's her turning point into becoming the next Cersi. It's her getting a taste of how cruel the world is and when she does come to power it's her excuse to be mean, and vicious / heartless because that's how people treated her.

now if she just dies in the next episode then yeah i will find that rape scene pointless. But if she turns into a major character dealing with the politics like female little finger or new cersi then that scene does make a lot of sense.
 
No opinion as I've not seen or read GoT, but some people expressed confusion as to why torture is okay but rape is not. It's simply a matter of the latter being a more realistic thing for a lot of people, a thing that a person could realistically experience in their life.
 
I was pretty outraged that they wrote Jamie to rape Cercei when in the books it never happened like that and it kinda ruined his brilliant transition into being a redeemable character. D&D seem to like adding rape to characters that was never there in the books.
 
"He gazed up at the enormous face. Years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark beard. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Got."
 
If any Starks are left alive by the end of this show I'll be mildly amazed. Let's face it, they got shit luck.

Hell....anyone with a name will be lucky to be alive by the end.
 
hamchan said:
I was pretty outraged that they wrote Jamie to rape Cercei when in the books it never happened like that and it kinda ruined his brilliant transition into being a redeemable character. D&D seem to like adding rape to characters that was never there in the books.
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It's pretty odd that 3 of the main females in this series have been raped, none of which happened to any of them in the books. I mean, can't it just be enough lol? There's rape in the books but it happens to minor characters and those scenes are horrific enough.
 
Metroxed said:
It was rape by today's standards. Not by fantasy Middle Ages' standards.

I think it has been pretty well established already that most noble houses pre-arrenge their marriage. Hell, sometimes the bride and broom barely knew each other beforre marrying (eg Catelyn and Eddard) and yet they had to consumate that same night. So what happened with Sansa was pretty normal within its context.

The problem here is that people are a) trying to apply today's moral standards to a fictional shows based in the Middle Ages, where violence has already been shown to be the norm, b) at the same time being rather hypocrites, because it is not the first time the series shows violence, sexual or otherwise. Just two episodes ago we were told how Bolton raped Ramsay's mother. Yet no one seemed to give half a crap.

We've seen children and babies being murdered by the dozens, beheadings, raping and attempt raping, killings of people and animals, killing pregnant women and their unbornt children, mass killings of people based on their ethnic origin (wildlings), slavery, sexual slavery, male genital mutilation, the list goes on.... but now this is the thing that outrages everybody? Something that hardly classifies as rape on the context it is taking place? Of course it is rape if it happened to someone today. Of course marital rape is a pretty big issue. But we are not talking about today or here. We are in fucking Westeros in the fucking Middle Ages.

They say the scene was completely pointless and could've just implied it? When Robert's bastards were killed in season 2, they could also have just "implied" that a baby was killed in front of her mother. The scene had no point really, but still nobody complained.

Nobody really complained about how valuable scenes were until now and with this topic specifically. In my opinion, completely nonsense.

And the people threatening with quitting the show.... lol. People have been saying the same thing season after season (Eddard in S01E09, Red Wedding in S03E09, Oberyn's fate in S04E08). They can leave or not, but I do not think it's going to have a big impact on the show's ratings.


/rant
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Jesus, your reading comprehension is fucked. The poster I was replying to was evidently asking if it was rape by modern standards given he explicitly mentions the issue of consent (and thereby rules out medieval perspectives).
 
suzu said:
GRRM basically said that the books are the books, and the show is the show.
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He touts the company line, the show has brought him more notoriety than he could have ever dreamt.
I do wonder what he really thinks about some of these inane changes they make to the plot, not that we will ever know the truth
 
I'm seriously trying to comprehend what all the outrage is about. I mean that particular scene was not even as graphic as it could have been given the show's identity.

After all, it's the Game of Thrones we're talking about; if you're so sensitive about sexual assault, suggested rape, murders etc you should have stopped watching years ago.
 
Dysun said:
He touts the company line, the show has brought him more notoriety than he could have ever dreamt.
I do wonder what he really thinks about some of these inane changes they make to the plot, not that we will ever know the truth
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A reality novelists have to accept when their work is adapted into a movie/show that alot of fans *don't* accept are that there are going to be major changes, for better or worse. GoT has a scope as such-the books mind you- that to be fully adapted with all it's intricacies would take a big deal of money and time.

Yeah, there are changes. For good reason.
 
Neuromancer said:
I haven't watched the show but it sounds like a realistic depiction of the actual times in which these people lived in.
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These characters didn't live in any times.

However if you look at the events and era GRRM sources as his influence it is nowhere NEAR realistic. If we're talking circa 11th century those were some horrible, brutal, barbaric, fucked up times.

In GoT you don't see soldiers smearing shit on their swords or arrows so that if they land a blow it infected the wounded.

GoT is Dora the Explorer in comparison to actual history.
 
I'm not caught up on this season. Could some show watcher explain to me what Littlefinger's motive is in the show for this? Yes, he is a power grabber, but I as a book reader am finding hard to believe he would put his "Little Cat" in such obvious danger.

I get the whole Sansa using the marriage to claim Warden of the North. I can also buy her going along with the marriage full knowing that Ramsey is sick mental case; the Starks know how cruel the Boltons are.

I don't want to say anymore, I'm just really curious on the show is handling Sansa/Littlefinger arc since it has the most deviation.
 
People have said they were "done" with this show since
Ned Stark bit it

spoiler: they aren't. silly people thinking they can stop watching entertaining tv. there is no "last straw." Mary Sue and the rest will be back next season

My take on the scene? I was dreading it the whole season, but I thought it was going to be a lot worse. I thought they were going to show it onscreen and make it even more trivial then it was. I'll see what the repercussions are next episode before I decide what I think.

Then again, no rape at all in TV would be fantastic. Hell, I would legit support legislation banning onscreen rape. Even implied rape. But the books and show are supposed to portray a shitty world, where shitty things happen for shitty reasons. Rape happens in our shitty world, and the fake one. What will be the consequences be for the characters in the episodes to come? Why not wait a few more episodes to find out?
 
I wasn't shocked by the depiction. It was fairly tame, I dare even say more tactfully than what GoT did before.

I think what just bothers me is that I expected Sansa to be the one that would go beyond that kind of characterisation. She already spent 4 seaons being shat on, traumatised, manipulated, every last hope and dream stripped from her as well as her family. I would've loved to see finally an actual rise, something powerful after all this time. To bring her back down to that level when a few MINUTES before she was actually showing some nice bite was for me pretty disappointing, especially since it's astray from the books. Surely there could've been a way to write it differently.

I ain't outraged by it tho. But disappointed, yes
 
MHWilliams said:
And at some point, people check out.

I'm not sure why this is hard for people to understand or a bad thing.
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There's a difference between someone personally not finding the series their cup of tea anymore and someone trying to convince everyone else it shouldn't be their cups of respective teas.
 
I guess the real question is should we be depicting how it is or how it should be?

What should count as art, and what should count as entertainment?

Weighty stuff.
 
Season one was so brilliant. Each season after has gotten progressively more vile / boring.

I don't have a problem with depicting rape if it serves a purpose. But this just seems like it was tacked on for shock value which comes off as a desperation move to me.

The entire Ramsay plot is revolting and played out. Joffrey was a shit but he was fun to watch and root against. The only thing Ramsay does for me is make me want to delete the show from my DVR schedule.
 
Cybit said:
I don't know if Game of Thrones (or especially ASOIAF) has a mission statement, but the bolded is pretty close to one.
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That so many people seem to think this just shows the real weaknesses of the show. Everything that happens in the books makes sense in terms of the politics of the world. When reading them I never really felt like I was being manipulated into liking people that were about to have bad things happen to them. Everything that happens is a consequence of someones actions, often their own.

The show of the other hand feels like it has a quota of bad shit that needs to happen, and if the books didn't go far enough with the characters the show has bothered to stick with they'll add another dumb scene.

For example, a post in this thread on the Red Wedding:

UrbanRats said:
That scene had more than shock value going for it.
It really put into perspective the dynamics the world GoT operated in, compared to other low fantasy stories.

I also don't understand people using "shock value" as a bad word.
Shock value has its purposes, like any other narrative tools.
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Was Robb, Cat and the rest of the northerners getting shanked not enough then? Jeyne was pretty much a completely different character compared to the books, and all the changes managed to do was make out Robb as more of a "hero in true love" character and even more of an idiot, removing a lot of subtlety and ambiguity.

People don't love the books because it's bad things happening to good people. It's much more than that. Now the show seems to be properly jumping the shark as it loses the guidance of what's already been written and critical paths its way to the end, I'm actually looking forward to seeing how dumb it gets when I don't have the frame of what I've read in my mind. I'll be able to accept it's trashy TV (not necessarily in a bad way, it's like 24 or something) and then eventually (lol) read the books to get the actual story.
 
Not said:
People have said they were "done" with this show since
Ned Stark bit it

spoiler: they aren't. silly people thinking they can stop watching entertaining tv. there is no "last straw." Mary Sue and the rest will be back next season

My take on the scene? I was dreading it the whole season, but I thought it was going to be a lot worse. I thought they were going to show it onscreen and make it even more trivial then it was. I'll see what the repercussions are next episode before I decide what I think.

Then again, no rape at all in TV would be fantastic. Hell, I would legit support legislation banning onscreen rape. Even implied rape. But the books and show are supposed to portray a shitty world, where shitty things happen for shitty reasons. Rape happens in our shitty world, and the fake one. What will be the consequences be for the characters in the episodes to come? Why not wait a few more episodes to find out?
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Why stop there? Why not ban it from all forms of media?

Afterwards, you can go after depictions of murder and torture.
 
jetjevons said:
In GoT you don't see soldiers smearing shit on their swords or arrows so that if they land a blow it infected the wounded.
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Not yet, at least.

This is like, the next evolution of simian-level warfare right here. We're all just monkeys that actually know what the poop we throw can do to other monkeys
 
Snacks the sober sea lion said:
Because it's supposed to be an adaptation? When you're going that far off of the rails, there needs to be a good reason for it. We don't know that reason is yet obviously, but it needs to be pretty damn good to satisfy people. And people aren't really willing to give the benefit of the doubt to subjects concerning sexual assault because 1. the show is already known to have added one rape scene that wasn't in the books, and 2. some media do use it as a "cheap" and easy way to raise the stakes or as a go to "this guy is like, really bad" characterization device, rather than as a vital plot and characterization point for the advancement of the story.
Obviously there's no way to tell yet, but painting outrage or criticism as something as reactionary as "people think bad things other than violence shouldn't be shown" is simplifying it.
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He's already bad. Is rape worse than sexually mutilating, starving, and torturingf someone so severely they create a new personality?

I don't get the outrage. That scene was absolutely logical if you have watched the show. She married him, the guy is totally sick, of course he's going to have sex with her and there is no way she would be willing. So it's rape.

I still think she can be a strong character it's just that right there she had no choice. I have a feeling next episode will have a reaction that allows her character to grow/change. Even if I'm wrong what happened lines up perfectly with the reality of marrying that guy.
 
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