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[liliththepale]

Not really. The issues are that 1) there's not much demand amongst developers to get UE4 running on Wii U (most AAA devs aren't developing on the platform and indies still have Unity), 2) Epic themselves aren't interested in supporting the platform, and 3) generally UE3 can be used as a fallback, even if not ideal. There's just not many reasons for Epic to officially support the platform when others can port the engine themselves if need be.

But say it costs (making this up) 20K worth of manhours to port UE4 to Wii U. And say there are two teams that want to use UE4 on Wii U. Team A and team B are each going to have to front 20K to port it. If Epic ported it themselves and then charged each team 15K, they'd come out ahead 10K and each team would save 5K. Does the economy of scale break this or am I missing something?

Who said anything about WiiU being the common denominator? I said they probably think re-building it for WiiU won't be such a huge struggle if they've considered it from the beginning.

Okay, I see what you're saying now. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[ZoddGutts]

Wherever this is AAA or AA game doesn't matter, with this amount of money they should make things look good. Ori and the Blind Forest a game that is a most an AA game was able to achieve beautiful looking graphics for a 2.5D game and that's with using the Unity engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cklw-Yu3moE

 

[Mivey]

Who said anything about WiiU being the common denominator? I said they probably think re-building it for WiiU won't be such a huge struggle if they've considered it from the beginning.

Difficult problems don't become magically easier because you "consider" them. They get easier if you change your requirements to suit the weakest platform better. Even with the second team, it is still the same game with the same levels and bosses. Having a console that is effectively half a generation behind will not make things easier or give them more leeway.


But "I like this platform, you are all salty" is apparently a valid technical argument on NeoGAF.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

But say it costs (making this up) 20K worth of manhours to port UE4 to Wii U. And say there are two teams that want to use UE4 on Wii U. Team A and team B are each going to have to front 20K to port it. If Epic ported it themselves and then charged each team 15K, they'd come out ahead 10K and each team would save 5K. Does the economy of scale break this or am I missing something?

Licensing from two developers isn't going to be near enough for devoting staff to a Wii U fork, especially since they completely revamped their license structure to be far more cost friendly for indie studios. And you have to remember, they can't just port it once and be done with it. Unreal Engine is constantly being updated and upgraded, and they'd have to provide technical support/documentation/updated tools etc. for any licensees seeking to use UE4 on Wii U. Unless they ported it and then instantly EOL'd it, which would be completely pointless because then licensees (particularly cross-platform developers) would still have to do the work themselves to keep their Wii U tools up-to-date.

There's just not enough demand for it to be worthwhile. If suddenly there was a demand, Epic would definitely hop on, but that's just not happening. And don't forget, Unreal Engine 4 was specifically developed to be highly scalable as well as support relatively low-end platforms. iOS, Android (including specific support for OUYA), and HTML5 browsers are all fully supported. That right there is all you need to know that it's completely feasible from a technical standpoint.

 

[RM8]

Difficult problems don't become magically easier because you "consider" them. They get easier if you change your requirements to suit the weakest platform better. Even with the second team, it is still the same game with the same levels and bosses. Having a console that is effectively half a generation behind will not make things easier or give them more leeway.


But "I like this platform, you are all salty" is apparently a valid technical argument on NeoGAF.

If that was the case I would have gone with 3DS instead of WiiU considering it's a much healthier platform. But maybe, just maybe, they indeed aimed for a possible WiiU version because building it from scratch is a viable option. Nah, they were dumb and now the game will tainted by last gen.

Lol, people will cry and blame WiiU if this game isn't visually impressive.

 

[liliththepale]

Licensing from two developers isn't going to be near enough for devoting staff to a Wii U fork, especially since they completely revamped their license structure to be far more cost friendly for indie studios. And you have to remember, they can't just port it once and be done with it. Unreal Engine is constantly being updated and upgraded, and they'd have to provide technical support/documentation/updated tools etc. for any licensees seeking to use UE4 on Wii U. Unless they ported it and then instantly EOL'd it, which would be completely pointless because then licensees (particularly cross-platform developers) would still have to do the work themselves to keep their Wii U tools up-to-date.

There's just not enough demand for it to be worthwhile. If suddenly there was a demand, Epic would definitely hop on, but that's just not happening. And don't forget, Unreal Engine 4 was specifically developed to be highly scalable as well as support relatively low-end platforms. iOS, Android (including specific support for OUYA), and HTML5 browsers are all fully supported. That right there is all you need to know that it's completely feasible from a technical standpoint.

Right. I said two teams for the sake of simplifying the equation, but I understand what you're saying. Thanks for the explanation!

 

[OmegaDL50]

If that was the case I would have gone with 3DS instead of WiiU considering it's a much healthier platform. But maybe, just maybe, they indeed aimed for a possible WiiU version because building it from scratch is a viable option. Nah, they were dumb and now the game will tainted by last gen.

Lol, people will cry and blame WiiU if this game isn't visually impressive.

Impressive compared to what? Outside of Lords of Shadow, Castlevania as whole never strived to push any graphical boundaries. Outside of some nice art direction. But again art direction and technical graphics fidelity are two different things

If people are expecting the Crysis of 2.5D platformers better steel yourselves now, Castlevania NEVER had that sort of metric associated with it.

As stated games like Ori and the Blind Forest and the recent Shantae game are good metrics of 2.5D games with excellent art direction. Even if Iga gets something similar to Trine levels of detail, but with 2D sprites and fully 3D backgrounds it would reasonable expectation.

 

[RM8]

That's my view as well. But that won't stop people from being disappointed for not getting something that was never promised

 

[Eusis]

WiiU was in the basement from day one, so I doubt it changes anything. Also, that WiiU was in the basement from day one could also be proof that this won't be the eye-melting visual marvel some people might expect.

We're probably expecting something that has a really great looking style, perhaps awesome animation, but is no technical marvel. Certainly if anyone expected more Crysis and less, uhh, Splatoon (or hell, more FFVII and less SotN) then they were being daft.

EDIT: Though yeah, there will always be those people with completely wrong expectations.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Right. I said two teams for the sake of simplifying the equation, but I understand what you're saying. Thanks for the explanation!

Well, coincidentally there actually are exactly two announced UE4 games on Wii U, at least as far as I'm aware. The second is "Red Goddess", another Kickstarted title. Of course though!

 

[kitchenmotors]

Well, looks like I'm going to help this Kickstarter now that Wii U is a stretch goal.

Funny at the reactions though, more people playing a Castlevania successor is not a bad thing.

 

[Wagram]

I feel like the 3,250,000 stretch goal is a time attack mode.

EDIT: Wait, isn't that speed run? I have no idea actually lol.

 

[Easy_D]

Well, coincidentally there actually are exactly two announced UE4 games on Wii U, at least as far as I'm aware. The second is "Red Goddess", another Kickstarted title. Of course though!

One of the developers of Red Goddess posts here and said the Wii U version will be ported to Unity

 

[liliththepale]

Well, coincidentally there actually are exactly two announced UE4 games on Wii U, at least as far as I'm aware. The second is "Red Goddess", another Kickstarted title. Of course though!

Interesting. Thanks!

Funny at the reactions though, more people playing a Castlevania successor is not a bad thing.

I'm on your side but your logic is flawed. You have to draw a line somewhere. I mean, imagine that somewhere a guy in his garage built a custom OS on custom hardware that only he has and it'd cost 100K to port to that arbitrary platform. You can't validate porting there on the pretense that more people playing Bloodstained is automatically good. I think people against Wii U are just drawing the line in a different place than you are.

 

[Wagram]

Anyways I supported the title with the physical copy edition. That should help the Wii U effort, even though I plan to get a PS4 copy.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

One of the developers of Red Goddess posts here and said the Wii U version will be ported to Unity

Ah, gotcha. Probably should have expected that since it's getting a delayed release with Vita. Still, that's the only other cross-platform Wii U game I know of where any version is UE4.

 

[Gatzor]

Wii U?
meh. Don't like Wii u contaminating my multi plats, do not want

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Wii U?
meh. Don't like Wii u contaminating my multi plats, do not want

Thanks for stopping by and not reading any of the material available that assures the Wii U port will have zero impact on the PC/PS4/X1 version of the game, which is being developed as if there is no Wii U port at all.

 

[maks]

I really hope this is arcade stick compatible. Just built a cabinet myself for games like these.

 

[neto]

I feel like the 3,250,000 stretch goal is a time attack mode.

EDIT: Wait, isn't that speed run? I have no idea actually lol.

I think is some kind of race mode or vs time attack, you can see what seems to be 2 human silhouettes between the hourglass

 

[Gnilres]

Buying the Wii U version. I'm not expecting it to reach the quality of the other games but I bought Black Ops on Wii and loved it even after playing the 360 version so I should be okay here too

 

[Gatzor]

Thanks for stopping by and not reading any of the material available that assures the Wii U port will have zero impact on the PC/PS4/X1 version of the game, which is being developed as if there is no Wii U port at all.

I dunno. Witcher 3 was supposedly gonna maintain its master race status on PC, and it didn't due to a lower common denominator (Xbox one). I understand that maybe the Wii U port wont effect dev time if it gets outsourced to another dev, but it will certainly effect game design and other such decisions no? Although I suppose an Igavania game isn't about to push these consoles in a significant way and therefore the downgrades probably won't be too massive, I have a hard time believing they wouldn't have some level of consideration/accountability in the development process for the inevitable Wii U port. I mean honestly I'm not actually concerned, the water might not be as nice is all

 

[OmegaDL50]

Wii U?
meh. Don't like Wii u contaminating my multi plats, do not want

I dunno. Witcher 3 was supposedly gonna maintain its master race status on PC, and it didn't due to a lower common denominator (Xbox one). I understand that maybe the Wii U port wont effect dev time if it gets outsourced to another dev, but it will certainly effect game design and other such decisions no? Although I suppose an Igavania game isn't about to push these consoles in a significant way and therefore the downgrades probably won't be too massive, I have a hard time believing they wouldn't have some level of consideration/accountability in the development process for the inevitable Wii U port. I mean honestly I'm not actually concerned, the water might not be as nice is all

Your previous post and what you say in your second one implies you are very concerned.

Do you honestly believe that Iga is going to against his statement of outsourcing the Wii U version to Armature so not to compromise his vision for the Unreal 4 versions? In fact did you even know that the Wii U version IS being outsourced, meaning NOT being developed in-house by Iga and his staff in the first place? I wouldn't expect anyone to actually know this to not make such an overreaction as your first post implies.

 

[shanafan]

I dunno. Witcher 3 was supposedly gonna maintain its master race status on PC, and it didn't due to a lower common denominator (Xbox one). I understand that maybe the Wii U port wont effect dev time if it gets outsourced to another dev, but it will certainly effect game design and other such decisions no? Although I suppose an Igavania game isn't about to push these consoles in a significant way and therefore the downgrades probably won't be too massive, I have a hard time believing they wouldn't have some level of consideration/accountability in the development process for the inevitable Wii U port. I mean honestly I'm not actually concerned, the water might not be as nice is all

And that lowest common denominator for Witcher 3 still delivered an amazing looking game.

Let's compare another indie title like Guacamelee! Super Turbo Championship Edition on Wii U versus PS4.

Wii U - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l980lHFSwEk
PS4 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_44IVBF3i0U

On the surface, both look equally as good imo.

 

[nynt9]

And that lowest common denominator for Witcher 3 still delivered an amazing looking game.

Let's compare another indie title like Guacamelee! Super Turbo Championship Edition on Wii U versus PS4.

Wii U - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l980lHFSwEk
PS4 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_44IVBF3i0U

On the surface, both look equally as good imo.

This is an absurd comparison. Guacamelee is 2D and was built ground up for the Vita, which has lower specs than the Wiiu and the PS4. Bloodstained is a 3D-rendered game targeting PS4-tier hardware.

 

[diffusionx]

Have you ever done any contract work? If you don't serve up the agreed upon product, you're liable to be sued for restitution. Armature can't just reach in and grab more money if they run out. Not that it's likely they'll need it, but it would take a suite of convoluted errors before this blows up in Iga's face.

It seems unlikely that the Wii U will turn into any kind of big success going forward, but it's not impossible. Its library continues to get stronger, and there are multiple corporate changes going on at Nintendo right now. To dismiss that out of hand is really immature.

I don't think that Armature would intentionally tank development or commit fraud or lie or do anything actionable in court. But as we all know, game development is not easy and it is not a smooth process. Games often go over budget or take more time. To think that Iga is on the hook for none of that is silly. It's his name on this project. That's the point, taking on this port is an added risk for little gain.

We are two and a half years into the Wii U's life, sales have always sucked, it's up against two vastly more popular systems with rapidly improving libraries, and those corporate changes at Nintendo are because the Wii U hasn't sold. I think it is fair to say that the chances Wii U becomes a big success are zero. I feel totally comfortable saying that.

 

[Xaero Gravity]

I think is some kind of race mode or vs time attack, you can see what seems to be 2 human silhouettes between the hourglass

Nooooo, it's going to be a Harmony of Despair type multiplayer mode. You just gotta believe!

 

[OniBarubary]

Yooooooo! This boss concept art is sick! I love it!

 

[Creaking]

Yooooooo! This boss concept art is sick! I love it!

That is a camel crotch.


Looks neat, but I'm worrying a bit that the monsters might end up looking a little over designed. There's an elegance to be had in restrained forms. Like the collar on the above beastie, is that really necessary? It looks really busy to me.

 

[gogojira]

Preface this by saying I'm a backer: that's the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

 

[theSlacker]

Preface this by saying I'm a backer: that's the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

I was trying to think of a polite way of saying the same thing. None of the other monsters have really clicked with me either. Not that it's a big deal since exploration is the name of the game for me though.

 

[OniBarubary]

Nope. Love busy designs. Simple is boring. More and more please.

 

[direct_quote]

Nope. Love busy designs. Simple is boring. More and more please.

Not that busy where the styles clash and don't make sense..

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Looks like a persona monster to me. which is kind of cool. Obviously not just a reskin of castlevania monsters.

 

[A-V-B]

Yeah, every monster they've shown has given me heavy Persona vibes.

Especially the running lion one that actually is represented in Persona

 

[OniBarubary]

Not that busy where the styles clash and don't make sense..

What styles clash? Why don't they make sense?

This is a made up monster in a video game where design is not based upon practicality or realism.

A monster with a goat crotch, no arms but hands on the end of her multi-part bat-wing capes, a double collar with spikes up and down to imitate a mouth and a crown for a belt is pretty sweet to me.

 

[Sciz]

They're taking plenty of artistic license, but this stuff's been around for centuries.

 

[Evilmaus]

I actually really like the boss design. It's probably my favorite out of all the monsters they've shown so far.

 

[SixMachine]

They're taking plenty of artistic license, but this stuff's been around for centuries.

I do like seeing designers make something from inspirations. The SMT series I see a monster design that makes me got WTF, but then I do some googling the name of what it's based on and see how it influenced it and the various design details trying to convey that inspiration. Even though it is overdesigned, I like playing "Where's Waldo" when looking at the details.

 

[L.O.R.D]

Yooooooo! This boss concept art is sick! I love it!

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Yooooooo! This boss concept art is sick! I love it!

Why is it's crotch a horse's head? Is this supposed to be avant garde boss design? Am I supposed to reflect on how deep and philosophical the horse's head crotch is?

 

[Rymuth]

That is a camel crotch.


Looks neat, but I'm worrying a bit that the monsters might end up looking a little over designed. There's an elegance to be had in restrained forms. Like the collar on the above beastie, is that really necessary? It looks really busy to me.

Is that a camel head in his pocket or is he just happy to see us?

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

They're taking plenty of artistic license, but this stuff's been around for centuries.

Ok, this makes it at least a bit more understandable. They could probably scrap the camel head part though.

 

[Audette]

I Am. fool and wrote this up before I realized they announced a Wii U version. Sorry to waste your time. Also I am sorry to see them put time toward Wii-U before the games really started.
--------------------------
I'm a little shocked at the Wii-u defence initiative. Most of this stems from two IRL conversations I had today with people who felt like they had to defend the wifi-U argument, NOT EVEN Wii-U OWNERS/SUPPORTERS. A couple things come to mind from it.

1- More than once I am sure Unreal Engine 4 has been said that it is not native to wii-u. Ports make more work for developers, that is something that should be regarded after production, not during. Maybe it could happen at a far enough point, but I would have to assume that would likely be a separate port team.

2- I agree with people here, Wii-U may be irrelevant at time of release. Seriously this game is a ways out.

3- If the game sells well enough on release and enough demand exists for Wii-U (if applicable) and or other non specified platforms, it will be ported. There is A pretty constant trend that porting trending/nostalgic titles, making them for as many platforms as possible gets you more sales. Every store/platform drums up hype differently each one will gets its time if their is a paying crowd. We will likely see more than one release on other platforms not specified at the moment, surely this will be done by separate porting teams than the main development.

4- ***Did not realize this port is a goal now was a reaction to before it was announced****
Isn't port begging is banned? wish it was IRL. I don't personally mind off hand comments like "Damn wish they had this on..." but some defensive stances take it way too far/serious. No specific example on Gaf but in my IRL it's happening too and not just this title. These people don't even always have the platform they are pushing for, as in they are pushing for wasted effort from the developer for the sake of fighting for trivial things.

5- Console exclusives, they happen. Growing up with less unified gaming markets, I have had to live through many console exclusives. If your Truely interested in the game, don't be a baby. Saying "boo hoo, it not coming to my platform guess they don't want my money". This freaking game comes out in 2016/2017, that is more than enough time to put your money and interest towards the title/platform/developer. The development tools they have access too shape the current platforms they announced for. Don't people get it? This the breadth of the scope these people have to work with right now.

If the developer submits and goes out of their way to make the game work on platforms that aren't easily optimized because of Internet "pity me/me too" mentality, I feel that they will be taking away from development of the core title. Just be patient if you don't like the announced systems, if it does well enough on its own it will be able to branch out.

It's okay to voice your disapointment in platform, get your opinion known but going so far as to argue over reasons why they can/can't is redicoulus. Especially when we aren't involved. Almost feels like it's done just to troll people. Let development focus on the core game first. Bully/sob tactics similar to the "Guess they won't get my money" statement makes me sick.

Most of this post stems from a couple IRL conversations I have had. Seriously, it's not really aimed at any specific Gaffer here. Love you all but just came to mind everytime I read a Wii-U/UE4 quote. Again Sorry. Passionate about supporting this, Castlevania SotN blew my mind back in '97. I just want the people behind it to make the best game they can.

 

[TheMoon]

Difficult problems don't become magically easier because you "consider" them. They get easier if you change your requirements to suit the weakest platform better. Even with the second team, it is still the same game with the same levels and bosses. Having a console that is effectively half a generation behind will not make things easier or give them more leeway.


But "I like this platform, you are all salty" is apparently a valid technical argument on NeoGAF.

You fail to make an argument as to how the Wii U being "half a generation behind" matters in any way here? That's why it wasn't part of the base goal and will be developed by a separate team. Seriously, do you think this was gonna look like TO1886 until they decided "shieet we need to scale this down to make this run on a shitty Wii U!" or that they conceived of some mind-melting technology that is only possible with the power of the Big Boys and have to limit themselves now because a mere Wii U cannot handle it and they have to be nice to it?

There is no rational thought here. All I see is "mommy and daddy say I need to share my toys with my little brother who smells" when in reality the smelly little brother will get his own set of toys and play in his own room. What are you (read: everyone throwing a fit, not just "you" you) so afraid of?

4- Isn't port begging is banned? wish it was IRL. I don't personally mind off hand comments like "Damn wish they had this on..." but some defensive stances take it way too far/serious. No specific example on Gaf but in my IRL it's happening too and not just this title. These people don't even always have the platform they are pushing for, as in they are pushing for wasted effort from the developer for the sake of fighting for trivial things.

Where is the port-begging? This is a thread about a KS with a platform-based stretch goal so we're discussing this very thing. Port-begging has 0 applicability here.

I'll ask you too, what do you think would compromise the game design in a way that includes another current gen home console?! Nothing they do will be impossible on a Wii U game design wise. Or even a PS360. They're just not doing PS360 because those are old machines and people have moved on from them in 2017.

 

[Necromanti]

Yooooooo! This boss concept art is sick! I love it!

I like various elements of the art separately, and though it makes me think of an inferior version of a Vanillaware game, there's something about how it comes together that I'm not crazy about. (Though the shark-face torso enemy was a lot worse.)

I guess I need to accept that they're going for something different and less dark. I think the art for Bloodborne captures the kind of feel that I would have wanted for the game.

 

[TheMoon]

Yooooooo! This boss concept art is sick! I love it!

I like the hand/cape. Totally could see this work great in pixel art.

 

[Audette]

Where is the port-begging? This is a thread about a KS with a platform-based stretch goal so we're discussing this very thing. Port-begging has 0 applicability here.

I'll ask you too, what do you think would compromise the game design in a way that includes another current gen home console?! Nothing they do will be impossible on a Wii U game design wise. Or even a PS360. They're just not doing PS360 because those are old machines and people have moved on from them in 2017.

I gotta apologize about port begging, I didn't know, I'm a fool and an idiot. I didn't read far enough on the mobile site to see it was announced. so much Wii-U talking happened before it was announced, and my convo with several people today it set off my defensive side.

Anyways honestly to me, it comes down to engine optimization and man power on the team simple as that. as far as I have seen Wii-U is not a native UE4 system, somewhere in between a little extra work and a lot of extra work will need to be taken to make sure it can work on that hardware, running the process of the games engine and assets. simple enough. Surely it's not hidden how evelopment on different systems changes the way the game performs? I.E. multiplatform games on Wii-u. Third party titles on ps3. Vita ports. Mobile ports. every emulator after PS1.

 

[Easy_D]

I think is some kind of race mode or vs time attack, you can see what seems to be 2 human silhouettes between the hourglass

Co-op boss rush. Like the mode present in Portrait of Ruin is my guess

 

[TheMoon]

Anyways honestly to me, it comes down to engine optimization and man power on the team simple as that. as far as I have seen Wii-U is not a native UE4 system, somewhere in between a little extra work and a lot of extra work will need to be taken to make sure it can work on that hardware, running the process of the games engine and assets. simple enough. Surely it's not hidden how development on different systems changes the way the game performs? I.E. multiplatform games on Wii-u. Third party titles on ps3. Vita ports. Mobile ports. every emulator after PS1.

Since you missed the announcement itself, going by your further comments I take it you are also not aware that Armature, a dev with Wii U experience founded by former Retro Studios veterans, is lined up to handle the Wii U version meaning it will not interfere in any way with the other versions.

Those multiplatform performance problems you mentioned all have their results appear on the port-destination platform, not on the source-platform. So again I see no issue here for "your" side. If Wii U gets a shitty port that runs poorly/lacks stuff/etc for some reason, so what (from your POV)?